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A note on materialism and objective morality

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Recently, StephenB wrote, RDFish is wrong; Barry Arrington is right: Materialism cannot be reconciled with objective morality:

In several previous posts, RDFish stumbled into a serious philosophical error that needs to be addressed. Barry Arrington had made the unassailable point that materialism (understood as physicalism) is incompatible with such concepts as good, evil, and objective morality. The reason is clear: Materialism reduces all choices to electro-chemical processes in the brain. With that model, all apparent moral decisions are really nothing more than chemcial-physical operations or functions.

Though RDF failed to refute the argument, confront the argument, or even define his own terms, he sought, nevertheless, to attack it through the back door, claiming that past atheist philosophers embraced both metaphysical materialism and objective morality.

I wonder if, for some readers, there may be a possible source of confusion: One can be a non-theist and still believe in objective morality. A non-theist may believe that the universe operates in a way that includes a moral component that it is not synonymous with a personal God (for example, the more austere forms of Buddhism). Then objective morality is part of objective reality.

Breaking that law is as likely as breaking the laws of nature, perhaps less so, and there are consequences. With materialism and physicalism, there is no such morality and no consequences by definition,. Which could be one reason that atheistic regimes in communist countries like China had such a high body count in the 20th century. – O’Leary for News

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Comments
And here is another person that don't understand slavery in the Biblical context. Right Stenosesmella a few questions. ... In 1500 BC was there such a thing as a democratic government? Careers? Pension? Medical Aid? Also was there such a thing as welfare? social workers? Police? Judicial system? Prisons? Hospitals? Slavery in biblical times was mostly good for slaves. If a rich person did not take you in you'd be dead. Slavery in biblical times was almost always voluntary with clear rules and a handsome pay out when it was time to be freed. The ignorance of the feeble minded saddens me.Andre
April 19, 2015
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As for slavery, if you want to know what is wrong with it, ask the slaves.Seversky
April 19, 2015
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A volcano, a Boeing 747 and the Mona Lisa are all just particles in motion. That doesn't mean they are all the same thing or we have no way to distinguish between them.Seversky
April 19, 2015
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It is nice to see that there are some people who are willing to discuss honestly and fairly and not simply dismiss questions from people and call them assaults from asshats. StephenB, my conclusion that slavery is bad (subjectively so, in my case) is the result of my upbringing, including religious teachings and other experiences. The fact that the majority of the population in the world, and the majority of governments, including the UN oppose slavery, simply enforces my belief that it is wrong to enslave people. It is this same upbringing that leads me to believe that killing is wrong (even execution and war), that jailing homosexuals is wrong, and that bearing false witness against someone is wrong. Again, these are moral beliefs that are held by many, if not most, people. None of these are based on any objective morals. But it does not mean that objectivity does not come into play when we establish our own ideas of right and wrong. My subjective morals are based on what I believe to be an objective examination and interpretation of my experiences and teachings. Whether or not they are truly objective is a moot point, as it is with those who believe that their morals are objectively derived. The reason I used slavery as an example is because it is very difficult for a theist (specifically Christianity) to argue that it is an objective "truth" that slavery is wrong because the bible does not state this. The fact that it does say that mistreating your slaves is wrong implies that the God of the bible does not think that owning people as chattel is wrong.stenosemella
April 19, 2015
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Alicia Renard: Slavery is bad for slaves. Slaves are people. They are entitled to the same rights as anyone else.
People are nothing above and beyond particles in motion. Entitled by what? Evolution? Gravity?Box
April 19, 2015
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In this context, i would suggest, bad for the slaves.
By extension, it must be good for the slave owners. From one position, the slaves are entitled. From another position, they are not. Nice standard.Upright BiPed
April 19, 2015
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StephenB asks:
Why is it bad?
It is bad to be a slave (for example in pre-Civil War Mississippi or Alabama) because you have to work without choice for no pay, you are restricted in choice of partner, where to live, subject to arbitrary discipline such as flogging. sounds bad to me.
What makes it bad?
The floggings mainly. Also the lack of personal choice and freedom.
Is there something inherently wrong about enslaving someone?
There's something practically wrong about slavery. Treat your slaves badly enough and they rebel and murder you in your bed. No slave states prospered long-term historically.
If not, then why do you say it is “bad” for them
Slavery is bad for slaves. Slaves are people. They are entitled to the same rights as anyone else.Alicia Renard
April 19, 2015
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Bob O'H:
Breaking laws of nature is impossible, so how do we know there are consequences?
Wow, dude. This is not even wrong. Nothing can happen in the universe unless laws are broken. In fact, change/motion is nature's way of correcting one or more violations to one or more laws/conservation principles.Mapou
April 19, 2015
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Alicia Renard
In this context, i would suggest, bad for the slaves.
Why is it bad for the slaves? What makes it bad? Is there something inherently wrong about enslaving someone? If not, then why do you say it is "bad" for them? What standard are you using?StephenB
April 19, 2015
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Barry, as you indicate, each crop of materialists raise the same uninformed objections--as if they had presented some new and daunting challenge. Yet they cannot even explain the distinction between the subject (knower) and the object (the thing known). Indeed, they don't even recognize the difference--except in their everyday lives. As you and WJM keep pointing out, no one really lives that way.StephenB
April 19, 2015
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StephenB
[quotes stensomella]I don’t believe that slavery is objectively good or bad, although it is bad according to my subjective morality.
Why is it bad according to your subjective morality? What, in your judgment, does “bad” mean?
In this context, i would suggest, bad for the slaves.Alicia Renard
April 19, 2015
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Barry, stenosemella at #13... you have to laugh at his audacity. Actually getting stroppy and going on the attack; slashing at you with a blade of grass. Truculence incarnate.Axel
April 19, 2015
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ktcat, I believe that, in order to summon to their aid 'those sparkly unicorns that give them consciousness and free will', they simply use that very ancient, now quite hackneyed, pantomime incantation: 'abracadabra'. That's all. It evidently has incredible power, when uttered by an adept. I suspect the wizards and enchanters in Pharaoh's court might well have resorted to its fluence, when they turned their thinggies into snakes (Pardon me if my turn of phrase conjures up some nasty images). It sounds too simple, really, but, then, life's funny like that. I remember Naaman, the Syrian general scoffed rather angrily at the thought of simply immersing himself in the Jordan seven times, as counseled by Elisha, in order to be rid of his leprosy. Food for thought, I'll wager.Axel
April 19, 2015
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Stephen has much more patience with asshats than I do. It is one of him many virtues.Barry Arrington
April 19, 2015
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stensomella -
I don’t believe that slavery is objectively good or bad, although it is bad according to my subjective morality.
Why is it bad according to your subjective morality? What, in your judgment, does "bad" mean?StephenB
April 19, 2015
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JDH
It is easy to come up with a hypothetical where it would be correct to practice slavery – suppose that you live in a country where any adult not attached to a household as either a family member or household slave is automatically conscripted into the king’s army to go fight ridiculous battles and to die a painful useless death. Well in this case keeping as many slaves as you could afford would be the correct thing to do. Slavery would not be wrong here.
As you suggest, not all forms of slavery are necessarily wrong, such as indentured servitude and other such formulations. However, chattel slavery (and human trafficking) is always wrong. I think you would agree.StephenB
April 19, 2015
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stenosemella, I will play if you will also answer my questions as we go along.
If there is objective morality, why have these moral “truths” changed over time, and between societies. And, given this fact, how does anyone know that their moral “truths” are the right ones?
Moral truths do not change. If they could change, they wouldn't be true. Error changes, truth doesn't. Accordingly, no moral truth has ever changed over time or between societies. What is your definition of a "moral truth?"
Is slavery objectively wrong and if so, where does this objective “truth” come from.
If, by slavery, you mean chattel slavery, then yes, slavery is objectively wrong. The objective truth comes from the fact that human beings have inherent dignity owing to their human nature, which is distinct from the nature of animals. It isn't just theists who accept the objectivity of this moral truth. Even secularists have made the same point in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is free of all theological language. Do you think chattel slavery is objectively wrong? If not, in what way is it wrong? Or, do you think it is not wrong?StephenB
April 19, 2015
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stensomella - I don't get the point of you question. Of course "slavery" is not objectively wrong. There is no virtue or vice where you could not come up with an extreme context where it is the best that you can do. It is easy to come up with a hypothetical where it would be correct to practice slavery - suppose that you live in a country where any adult not attached to a household as either a family member or household slave is automatically conscripted into the king's army to go fight ridiculous battles and to die a painful useless death. Well in this case keeping as many slaves as you could afford would be the correct thing to do. Slavery would not be wrong here. However, in most cases the opportunities for a free adult are not restricted to either slavery or conscription. So slavery is almost always wrong. But to claim that slavery is objectively wrong is to misunderstand the complexity of how moral laws interact with each other. It is impossible to localize one moral law. This does not mean that morality is relative or subjective in the sense that there is not an objective answer for every situation. It does however mean that no one moral precept is objectively correct to be always ascendant over every other precept. I hope this was clear.JDH
April 19, 2015
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Theist dodge #1 "As I said, when you demonstrate your good faith by quoting from one of the literally hundreds of responses to that very question on UD and tell me why you think it is wrong, I will respond." Refuse to answer a question until the materialist agrees to answer another one. Barry, are you so afraid of answering this question? I'm sure that KF or WJM would not hesitate. If it makes it easier I will provide you with my opinion on the subject. I don't believe that slavery is objectively good or bad, although it is bad according to my subjective morality. However, if I were raised in a different time, or in a different time, I may believe that slavery is morally good. So again, Is slavery objectively wrong?stenosemella
April 19, 2015
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S @ 11: As I said, when you demonstrate your good faith by quoting from one of the literally hundreds of responses to that very question on UD and tell me why you think it is wrong, I will respond.Barry Arrington
April 19, 2015
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"No, I am not avoiding the question. " Yes you are. It is here for everybody to see. I have asked a very simple question: Is slavery objectively wrong and if so, where does this objective “truth” come from?" It is a very simple question. If you are uncomfortable about the second part of the question, you can simply start by answering the first part. Is slavery objectively wrong? You keep claiming that you are open to fair and honest disagreement with your views. Now is your chance to demonstrate this. I promise to engage honestly and with respect. The ball is in your court.stenosemella
April 19, 2015
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S @ 9 No, I am not avoiding the question. I am demonstrating that I do feel compelled to jump though every hoop some asshat holds in front of me because he has not been paying attention for the last 10 years.Barry Arrington
April 19, 2015
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Barry, you are avoiding the question. I will repeat it again: Is slavery objectively wrong and if so, where does this objective “truth” come from.stenosemella
April 19, 2015
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S @ 7
I dare say that I have read numerous attempts to answer this question
If that is true, then you should have no problem quoting one of those attempts and telling me why you think it is wrong. We can start the discussion that way. I do get so weary of starting from scratch with you people every time.Barry Arrington
April 19, 2015
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Barry, I dare say that I have read numerous attempts to answer this question but I have yet to see one that is logically sound. But rather than have you try to equivocate on every inconsistency with objective morality, I would simply like to hear your opinion on whether or not slavery is objectively wrong and where this objective "truth" comes from. Maybe if we start small we can actually make some progress.stenosemella
April 19, 2015
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I can understand that. On my own blog, I realized that in cases like this, my writing was more there to teach myself than to instruct people who see themselves as nothing more than bags of molecules obeying the laws of chemistry, but somehow possessing sparkly, magical unicorns which give them consciousness and free will.ktcat
April 19, 2015
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stenosemella @ 2
This entire materialism vs objective morality is getting rather tiresome.
After saying this you raise an objection that has been answered hundreds of times on these pages. If you've followed the debate long enough that it has become tiresome to you, then doubtless you have seen the answer to your question many times. So why should I answer your question (and there is an answer) when you refused to consider all of those prior answers?Barry Arrington
April 19, 2015
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ktcat, I understand what you are saying, and after reading the latest materialist mulishly refusing correction to glaring errors, I am often tempted to do just as you say. But I am not really arguing with the expectation that I am going to change their mind. By the time they come to the point of arguing for it on the internet, their conscience has usually been so thoroughly seared that they are beyond correction. I have to keep reminding myself, however, that we get over 50,000 unique visitors to this site every month. 99% of them are lurkers who never comment. Those people are the ones to whom my arguments are addressed.Barry Arrington
April 19, 2015
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Barry, give it up. Materialism, as you pointed out elsewhere, is not rational nor is it coherent. It's simply a platform for the person to feel superior to others and excuse any and all behaviors. It's nothing more than that. You are arguing with people who aren't arguing with you. They don't care if it's incoherent as long as they are not held to any objective moral code and they can sneer at people who have one.ktcat
April 19, 2015
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This entire materialism vs objective morality is getting rather tiresome. Theists claim that there is a subset of objective morality. Materialists say that there isn't. If there is objective morality, why have these moral "truths" changed over time, and between societies. And, given this fact, how does anyone know that their moral "truths" are the right ones?stenosemella
April 19, 2015
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