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A quick question for Dr. Liddle and other skeptics

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Over at The Skeptical Zone, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle has written a thought-provoking post, which poses an interesting ethical conundrum about the morality of creating sentient beings.

Dr. Liddle’s post was titled, Getting some stuff off my chest…., and its tone was remarkably conciliatory, as the following extracts reveal:

I don’t think that science has disproven, nor even suggests, that it is unlikely that an Intelligent Designer was responsible for the world, and intended it to come into existence.

I don’t think that science has, nor even can, prove that divine and/or miraculous intervention is impossible.

I think the world has properties that make it perfectly possible for an Intelligent Deity to “reach in” and tweak things to her liking – and that even if it didn’t, it would still be perfectly possible, given Omnipotence, just as a computer programmer can reach in and tweak the Matrix.

I don’t think that science falsifies the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity – at all.

Apparently, Dr. Liddle’s main reason for disbelieving in an “external disembodied intelligent and volitional deity” is a philosophical rather than a scientific one: she is “no longer persuaded that either intelligence or volition are possible in the absence of a material substrate.” Fair enough; but Dr. Liddle should tell us what she means by the word “material.” Does she mean: (a) composed of visible and/or tangible “stuff”; (b) having some (non-zero) quantity of mass-energy; (c) spatially extended, and inside our universe; (d) spatially extended, and inside some universe; (e) composed of parts; (f) behaving in accordance with the laws of Nature; or (g) behaving in accordance with some invariant set of mathematical laws? What is Dr. Liddle’s definition of “matter,” and why does Dr. Liddle believe that an intelligent being has to conform to that definition?

But the most interesting part of her post came in two paragraphs where she made it clear that while she regarded the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient deity as quite compatible with science, it was ludicrous to suggest that this deity might also be omnibenevolent:

I do think that the world is such that IF there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity, EITHER that deity does not have human welfare as a high priority OR she has very different ideas about what constitutes human welfare from the ones that most people hold (and as are exemplified, for example, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), OR she has deliberately chosen to let the laws of her created world play out according to her ordained rules, regardless of the effects of those laws on the welfare of human beings, perhaps trusting that we would value a comprehensible world more than one with major causal glitches. In my case, her trust was well-placed…

I don’t think that it follows that, were we to find incontrovertible evidence of a Intelligent Creator (for instance, an unambiguous message in English configured in a nebula in some remote region of space, or on the DNA of an ant encased in amber millions of years ago) that that would mandate us in any way to worship that designer. On the basis of her human rights record I’d be more inclined to summon her to The Hague.

This is a little inconsistent. On the one hand, Dr. Liddle declares that she values “a comprehensible world” with no “causal glitches”; but at the same time, Dr. Liddle wishes that the Intelligent Creator, if she exists, would do more to promote human rights and alleviate suffering.

At any rate, here is the question I would like to ask Dr. Liddle. Suppose you were the Intelligent Creator of a world containing life. Suppose also that you have decided that your world should contain no “causal glitches” whatsoever: miraculous interventions are out of the question. Suppose, finally, that the laws of your world happen to dictate that any sentient beings in it will suffer and die, and suppose, also, that death in your world is absolutely final, with no hereafter. That goes for sapient beings as well: in your world, you only get one innings.

The life-forms that currently exist in your world include not only micro-organisms, but also complex animals, rather like our insects, which are capable of a rich variety of behavioral feats, but lack any kind of phenomenal consciousness: they react to environmental stimuli in a very sophisticated manner, but for them, there is no subjective feeling of “what it is like” to experience those stimuli. So far, everything is unfolding in accordance with your pre-ordained program.

Here’s my question for Dr. Liddle, and for skeptical readers. Given the above constraints, would you regard it as immoral to be the author of a program that eventually resulted in the appearance of:

(a) sentient beings capable of feeling pain, but with no self-awareness whatsoever;
(b) sentient beings with some rudimentary self-awareness;
(c) sapient beings capable of reasoning and language, as well as a rich sense of self-awareness?

Putting it another way, would it be better for an Intelligent Creator not to create a world of sentient (and/or self-aware and/or sapient) beings, than to create a world in which sentient / self-aware / sapient beings existed, but where all of these beings would undergo suffering (and where some of them would undergo a considerable degree of suffering), caused by the inexorable operation of the laws of Nature in that world? Or putting it as baldly as possible: if you were the Creator, would you deny us all the gift of existence, on the grounds that it would be immoral to create beings like us?

If your answer is that it would be immoral to create beings like us, then I would ask you to set out, as clearly as possible, the ethical principle which would be violated by the creation of beings like us.

And if it’s not the existence of suffering per se that you object to, but the degree of suffering, where do you draw the line, and why?

Over to you, Dr. Liddle…

Comments
I meant to write: “I don’t know if you're there behind the curtain . . ." (I hate it when I make grammatical mistakes). So, how about it selvaRajan? -QQuerius
January 25, 2014
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Here's a bedtime story for selvaRajan. Once upon a time, there was a rumor about a person hidden behind a curtain. No one have ever seen this person. Some people said that they tried to speak to the person but got no answer, so they no longer believed that there was a person behind the curtain. Other people said that they tried to speak to the person behind the curtain and they got a response. Great controversy followed. There was once a young man with dark hair and a moustache named selvaRajan---no wait, he's actually a heavy-set middle-aged woman with dark hair and a moustache . . . or both. Anyway, selvaRajan claimed that there was absolutely NO WAY anyone could be certain about the person behind the curtain, thus people should simply believe what they want to and it would be fine. But SelvaRajan was wrong. There is a way to find out whether there's a person behind the curtain after all, and that is to ask the person behind the curtain, simply and earnestly, "I don't know if your there behind the curtain, but if you are, I would really like to meet you, and to have a personal relationship with you." The question would be, is selvaRajan serious enough about God to ask? -QQuerius
January 24, 2014
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And apparently He loves math, beautiful complexity, and hiding things. :-) Ignorance does not make God indeterminate, nor does it absolve us from reaching out to discover, rather than synthesize, God on His terms. Ask yourself whether you are honestly willing to do that. -QQuerius
January 23, 2014
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selvaRajan:
Similarly without knowing the capability of God, you can’t know what creator can create.
That is true in a sense. However, when we have a created thing in front of us, we know that the creator of that thing at least had the capability to create that thing, including the knowledge, planning, foresight, understanding of physics and chemistry, etc. So we may not know every characteristic of the creator of life, for example, but we know that the creator was an incredibly-capable engineer who had a deep understanding of chemistry and physics. Now whether that creator was "God" or not, is a different question.Eric Anderson
January 23, 2014
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selvaRajan, Surely you can appreciate the difference between deciding if Apple or Microsoft designed a computer, as opposed to deciding if the computer was whipped up by a wind storm in the Sahara? Are you giving Apple, Microsoft and the winds of the Sahara equal probability?phoodoo
January 23, 2014
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selvaRajan, So your problem isn't in believing in some type of God, but you are on a quest to learn more about the details of this God, to see if he could have created this world? I think many theologians and spiritualists would suggest you need to spend time meditating over this and see if you gain any wisdom or insight. Have you already begun this? I am not sure why you are confusing the issue of mountains however, you seem to have spun back into an argument of detecting whether or not something is designed, as opposed to your argument about what the God is like that did it. I think if you keep confusing the two issues, you are not going to make sense of anything. Did you actually wish to argue about whether or not we can identify design?phoodoo
January 23, 2014
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phoodoo @77, If I say mountains are not created by Apple but are the result of plate tectonics would you believe me? Apple obviously didn't create mountains or Microsoft products. Apple doesn't have the power to create all products. Similarly without knowing the capability of God, you can't know what creator can create - you don't expect God to create iPhones and iPads.selvaRajan
January 23, 2014
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selvaRajan, You man if someone shows to you that the world is clearly a designed property, which requires a great amount of specific information content to exist the way it does, and says, look, this is not chaos-some people (you perhaps) would say, yes, I agree, it is designed and ordered, but the problem is, I don't know if a God can do this. So until I find out what powers it has, I am still not convinced. Nothing could convince such a person, so why would someone try? That person wants to NOT believe too badly. Apple doesn't need to convince you that their company is full of brilliant people in order for you to see that their products were designed. The product is the evidence. You may not even like their designs, but you would have a hard time denying their existence. You would have an equally hard time saying that perhaps an Apple marketing man just found these things laying in the desert, washed up by the sands. Now you could believe that if it was very important to your worldview to think that, but if someone can't convince you otherwise, in that case its probably more your job to convince others that they may well have been whipped into shape by a bunch of sand in the Sahara.phoodoo
January 22, 2014
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phoodoo: Thanks for calling out the "emergence" business. It is amazing how many people buy into the "emergence" buzzword as though it were some kind of actual explanation. Emergence, without more explanation of what is actually going on at the micro and macro level, is just another way of restating the old evolutionary storyline: Stuff Happens.Eric Anderson
January 22, 2014
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phoodoo @ 72,
Why would one need to know what God is capable of, if what one is deciding is that they see a world which was likely created?
To convince others. If you don't want to do that, then there is no problem.selvaRajan
January 22, 2014
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Querius @73, Your contention is that the way someone perceives God is not going to change the actual form of God - which is of course true. However if no one has an idea of actual form of God, what He can or can't do can't be answered (hence we wouldn't know whether He is capable of creating sentient or sapient human). I may be a bot, a robot or male or female. For me to give birth, I need to be female. If you think of me as androgynous, male or robot, that would be impossible. So what you think of me limits my capability in your perception. Unless you know the actual form of God, there is no way to know what He is capable of. Every religion has God in different forms, so what He is capable of differs in everyone's perception.What you think and perceive may not be true. If it is not true, then whatever you say based on your perception is false. You are looking at the flickering shadows in Plato's cave. You need to come out of the cave!selvaRajan
January 22, 2014
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selvaRajan,
My argument was about form of God, not existence of God
Exactly! And this is precisely the controversy between Mapou and I regarding your form. As noted previously, we apparently have widely different conceptions of your form (we, of course believe that you exist). What we want to know is whether anyone has noticed that your form has changed lately. -QQuerius
January 22, 2014
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SelvaRajan, Why would one need to know what God is capable of, if what one is deciding is that they see a world which was likely created? Nothing in this world suggests it is just chaos of unordered purposelessness=the nothingness you would expect to come out of nothing; everything suggests there is order and organization. I would think one hardly needs more than this to decide that something is obviously capable of putting it that way.phoodoo
January 22, 2014
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Querius @ 65 and Eric @66, My argument was about form of God, not existence of God and about Dr.Vjt question :'whether God can create a sentient or sapient being' . I noted @39
Every religion has their own concept of God. Some religions view God’s emissary as God, in some God has no form, in some there are hundreds of God – some Gods are female. Dr. Liddle has her own God (in her perception God is female). You have your own God. When we can’t divine the form of God , how can we know whether He can create a sentient or sapient being ? Everyone is arguing based on their own perception of God and since there is no consensus on form of God, it is fair to say – ‘what you think is God is God and what you think He is capable of is His capability’.
selvaRajan
January 22, 2014
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Joe, Well, they are certainly free to believe that they can model a life and death struggle by counting how long it takes M&M's to "drift" mutations into full populations (agreed its already starting with a preposterous amount of assertions), but when they can't even count well, then it makes the whole process comically absurd.phoodoo
January 22, 2014
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phoodoo, What do you expect from people who think that a M&M simulation actually means something wrt reality?Joe
January 22, 2014
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William, I thought Lizzie argument of why we should see humans as anything more than chemical oddities if one believes in evolution, is particularly unsophisticated. Basically her idea is that, well, we can call humans special, because we feel they are special. And her biggest cop-out, well, they have "emergence". A completely vague, and unexplainable science term which tries to make sense of how a bunch of ants can make something smart, or how our individual brain cells can put together a complex thought. She kept trying to say, "well, they are emergent, see, so that is where we get our moral ideas." I think she didn't even have a clue what she was trying to say, but simply was trying to throw out some concepts and hope they deflected the problem of finding morality in a completely materialist world. If we are all just different mixes of chemicals, all the talk in the world about emergence doesn't erase the fact that its just chemicals creating the illusion of value. The fact is, science doesn't even know what emergence is, they have no idea how ants make complex decisions, and how individual brain cells, add up to consciousness. Its a complete mystery,and she is using it as a defense for pulling morality out of thin air.phoodoo
January 22, 2014
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Dr. Liddle's (and other atheists at TSZ) issue with God seems to be two-fold; she doesn't find the moral state of the universe or the physical evidence wrt intelligence compelling in favor of belief in God. Yet, if God has provided humans with the free will capacity even to deny God's existence, isn't this the very state they should expect to find themselves in - one where the evidence does not compel them to believe?William J Murray
January 22, 2014
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selvaRajan, regarding Querius @65: Furthermore, and importantly, Querius' and Mapou's disagreement about you, your qualities, your appearance, your capabilities, and so on in no way means that you don't exist.* Yet that was the alleged problem the materialists were throwing around earlier in this thread: If the believers don't all have exactly the same conception about God, then God doesn't exist. It simply doesn't follow. That kind of reasoning is a fallacy. Logic 101 fail. Querius' example is excellent in pointing this out. ----- * It is true, to be sure, that if two people have opposing conceptions of someone's characteristics, then one or both of them are wrong (or at least have an incomplete understanding) about that particular characteristic. As a result, if two people proclaim opposing views about this or that characteristic of God, we can conclude that one or both of them are wrong or at least lack complete understanding. That would be a valid observation. However, that was not the assertion by the naysayers. Instead they tried to go a bridge too far and assert that the existence of disagreement about this or that characteristic of God proves God doesn't exist. Very simply put, that kind of thinking is wrong -- demonstrably so.Eric Anderson
January 21, 2014
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But selvaRajan, you missed my point. My misconception of you and Mapou's misconception of you have most likely not affected your appearance---unless your conception of you is stronger than ours combined! Hmmm. Maybe if Mapou and I agree to visualize you as a heavy-set, middle-aged woman with a moustache, you'll turn into one! Be afraid! ;-) My point is this. If the combined searing intellect of Mapou and I cannot affect your appearance in the slightest, how much less can we affect God's existence! -QQuerius
January 21, 2014
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Querius@42,
So, just as Schroedinger’s cat is trapped forever between life and death, so you too are also forever held prisoner by our conceptions of you! As you pointed out, what we think of you is you, which makes you a young, androgynous, heavy-set person with a moustache named “Adam.”
Erwin Schrodinger's thought experiment is about superposition - the cat is not 'between' life and death. It is both alive and dead. The thought experiment was to ridicule Copenhagen interpretation - not to compliment superposition! You are mixing 2 thoughts to create one form of me. That has got nothing to do with Schrodinger's cat! Imagine mixing God's concepts of various religions together- you will get multiple limbs, multiple heads, androgynous( there are androgynous Gods too),multihued God- so if you are visualizing such a God, that is what God is for you.selvaRajan
January 21, 2014
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Well seventrees, Alan Fox was asking about the dolphin slaughter and how that fits VJT's concept. It's as if they want God to take responsibility for everything. And that is a prediction of Mapou's "cry-baby" hypothesis.Joe
January 21, 2014
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Commenting on Joe's 56th comment, I still wonder where God's suffering as stated in Christianity, fits into that. "Jesus, who is God, suffered. So, there isn't a God" Of course, a few say it is a myth. The few are free to do so at the expense of their intellectual integrity.seventrees
January 21, 2014
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Here's a thought regarding Lizzie's Lament (tm): A. Assume that God doesn't exist. Someone could argue that God doesn't exist because "She" isn't fair, that there's no justice, that pain and suffering are ubiquitous, etc. But do those complaints actually *prove* that God doesn't exist? And why then do we seem to have this bizarre concept of "fairness" and "justice"? All that truly matters in this case is that we reproduce frequently, and that the weaker or stupider ones are prevented from reproduction. Fairness and justice have nothing to do with it. Unconvinced? Try this for a pickup line: "For the sake of fairness, you must mate with me." Also, the ID paradigm still makes sense because the watchmaker, although blind, has still made all these watches. B. Assume that God does exist. We know that humans have limited understanding and intelligence, and that God, by definition, has complete understanding and an IQ of a billion. How much sense does it make to attempt to fight against or argue with such a being, accusing "Her" of being unfair or unjust? This would be insane. It's an argument you're guaranteed to lose, and stupid to start in the first place. Also, the ID paradigm makes sense because the watchmaker is not blind and has made all these watches. -QQuerius
January 21, 2014
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In addition to being a bunch of stupid crybabies, Darwinists are also gutless cowards. Their fear of being ostracized by their own kind is legendary. They fear it like the plague.Mapou
January 21, 2014
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Lizzie sez:
tbh, it’s why I think that ID, apart from being bad science (and I do think it is bad science) is also bad theology.
Well ID isn't theology so that would explain that. Also Lizzie doesn't appear to know what science is- or what reasoning is as she thinks that goal-oriented targeted searches, ie telic processes are the same as darwinian processes, which are not telic at all. So, tbh Lizzie, your dissing of ID amounts to nothing but your gums flapping.Joe
January 21, 2014
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So their irritability and irrationality is due to diaper rash? :cool:Joe
January 21, 2014
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The TSZ ilk prove that they are clueless- “Children suffer so there isn’t a God” “Parasites kill and harm us so there isn’t a God” “Pain and suffering so there isn’t a God” How stupid can they get?
They are very stupid. They're also a bunch of cry babies, throwing a tantrum because God did not change their diapers on time. What they fail to realize is that we live in a yin-yang universe. There can be no pleasure without pain, not happiness without suffering, no left without right, no peace without war, etc. That's just the way it is. And as Solomon wrote, there is a time for everything. Now is our time for suffering. This is humanity's initiation period. Paradise comes later.Mapou
January 21, 2014
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The TSZ ilk prove that they are clueless- "Children suffer so there isn't a God" "Parasites kill and harm us so there isn't a God" "Pain and suffering so there isn't a God" How stupid can they get? In a perfect world we would never learn anything and we could never be judged. We would never accomplish anything and the purpose of our existence would be moot. If these "skeptics" applied their skepticism evenly they would see how ridiculous and untenable their position isJoe
January 21, 2014
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Eric You are on the money!Andre
January 21, 2014
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