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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
JG: cf. for pre-christian as potential background: Creationism and Its Critics in AntiquityMung
January 28, 2013
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Jon Garvey:
do you have a source for that quotation from Gregory Nazianzus?
I got that one in particular From the volume by edited by Dembski and Downs. They come from his Orations Specifically Oration XXVIII - The Second Theological Oration (VI and XVI) Online here: http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/npnf2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-43.htm cheersMung
January 28, 2013
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Jerry, permit me to say welcome back, even if your return engagement is only temporary. I recall being one of those who, through my own fault and partisanship, misunderstood your position. I hope that you will accept my apology for being so presumptuous. On the question of theodicy, I have never understood why Christians do not accept the doctrine of the fall as the answer to all the problems that followed that event. It has always seemed evident to me that God did not "will" human misery any more than He "willed" human damnation. He simply "allowed" man to use and misuse his free will. By misusing his free will, man compromised (and continues to compromise) his relationship with God, with nature, with himself, and with his neighbor. As a result, nature's relationship with itself (design) was also likely compromised (perhaps retroactively).StephenB
January 28, 2013
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This gets quite interesting, cf the second comment at 126: ++++++++ >> [to] great_ape: Re 123 – 4: You have aptly shown the significance of FUNCTIONALLY specified complex information. (And, BTW, redundancy in analysis and communication is often an asset, so even if there is an overlap between specificity and complexity, that may well be functional. For instance, classically, in Newtonian Dynamics, the First Law, strictly is a special case of the second: F = 0 implies that a = 0, where F = ma. But, understanding explicitly that when there is no net force there will be no net acceleration so bodies tend to remain at rest or to move at steady speed in a constant direction absent such forces, is vital. A good example is in understanding why circular motion is accelerated.) My “algorithm” on inference to agency: 1] First, show that there is functionality in a context that entails specification and information, then 2] Address contingency. (Does the case show that contingency is at work? If so then chance or agency dominates — once necessary and sufficient deterministic conditions are present, the result will be present directly, at a rate governed by the dynamics of natural regularities at work: fuel + air + heat –> fire.) 3] Finally, address complexity: If the chance option would credibly exhaust the available probabilistic resources, then agency is a better explanation. At that point you are entitled to state, on an inference to best explanation basis, what is the best answer: chance, necessity, or agency, or what blend of the three major causal forces. We routinely do this intuitively in many contexts, and through Fisherian or similar inference explicitly in statistics and science in many situations. (So the issue of selective hyperskepticism when key worldview level assumptions and related outlooks, agendas and attitudes are at stake becomes an issue. Indeed, I think this best explains the hostility we so often see and which is so often adverted to in this blog’s threads.) As an instance of “blending,” in my linked: * unconstrained heavy objects tend to fall under that NR we call gravity. * if the object is a die, the up-face is essentially chosen at random after tumbling, from the set {1,2,3,4,5,6}, thanks to the kinetic energy, centre of gravity and eight corners plus twelve edges leading to complex rotations adn frictional losses that eventually damp out the motion. * If the die is tossed as a part of a game, then its outcomes are as much a product of agency as of chance and necessity. >> ++++++++ We keep going back to some very familiar territory. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2013
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F/N: So, this is when FSCI entered the discussion at UD. I still have yet to hear a clear answer as to the way that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can account for it, as opposed tot he billion-case observational base for inferring to design as the known best explanation. And, of course, our battleship vs pile of rocks is on an extension, whereby functionally specific complex organisation implies information as well. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2013
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Folks strangely relevant to this thread per the OP: +++++++++ >> First, on definition: precise descriptive statements that give necessary and sufficient conditions for an entity are quite hard to make; same, for definition by genus/difference [cf taxonomy in biology]. But, as the above shows, recognition of a pattern by pointing out examples and recognition of “family resemblance” is much easier. Indeed, one can argue that precising definitions are logically subsequent to that intuitive recognition/identification by example and/or counter example. (We usually argue over definitions by saying whether or no they include all and only instances of the recognised entity, and exclude all and only non-instances.) For instance, kindly supply a generally accepted precise definition of LIFE that meets this criterion. (Of course, that is to show that the subject matter of the overarching discipline for biological ID is itself subject to the same issues of definition, so we should not be selectively hyperskeptical.) Be that as it may, we should distinguish the ability to identify/distinguish intuitively, from the specifications [!] by formal definitional wording, hopefully within Sewell’s 1,000 word limit. The classic distinction between: [1] “fffffffff . . .” [here, assumed non-contingent, and obviously not complex], [2] “nfgrduywornfgfkdyre . . .” [assumed contingent and complex but random] & [3] “this is a functionally specified, complex statement” should not be forgotten. (Cf discussion in TBO’s TMLO, 1984, Ch 8, etc.) Similarly, 500 coins neatly lined up, all heads or all tails or alternating h,t, etc are specified and complex, and function in the context of recognisable patterns. [I emphasise "functional" as well as specified, as I have found that this helps us eliminate a major set of issues: first, let the alleged information actually function in a communicative context (i.e. fit in with signal sources, encoders, transmitters, channels, receivers, decoders and sinks, physical and/or abstract], then discuss its specification and complexity. A rock slide or erosional feature is indeed complex, but is non functional in communicative situations, absent someone’s analysis of it that derives from observations of it say a bit pattern . (Such patterns start with say retinal patches of light/dark and colour, and/or real-time frequency patterns in our cochlear sensing hairs.) On the other side of the issue, going to an example the late great Sir Fred Hoyle used to discuss, it is logically and physically possible that a tornado passing through an aero industry junkyard could assemble a fully functioning 747, but that is so overwhelmingly improbable that it exhausts the probabilistic resources of the observed cosmos, say, 10^80 atoms and 13.7 BY. Oddly, Mr Dawkins cites the same example and notes that such functional outcomes are sparse indeed in the available configuration space for such a random shuffling, but then insists that the appearance of complex design can be deceiving; due to that bare possibility. The problem is, that it is a routine principle of statistical mechanics, that we look at he issue of microstates [here shuffled of aero-parts, i.e we are looking at giant “molecules”] compatible with a given macrostate [here a functional aircraft] and infer from the proportions of the so-called statistical weight of relevant macrostates, relative likelihood. This is in fact the basis for pointing out why though it is logically and physically possible for the molecules of oxygen in a room to all rush to one end, without intelligent intervention etc, it is so maximally improbable that the relevant fluctuations on that scale are simply not observed. Similarly, TBO’s analysis in CH 8 of TMLO turns on this same basic principle, captured in the Boltzmann expression s = k ln w, w being the statistical weight of the macrostate. Apply the concept of Brillouin on the link between entropy and information [there is still a school in physics that speaks of such, following Jayne, cf Harry Robertson's Statistical Thermophysics], and use the resulting measue of information in a biofunctional molecule, and the relevant Gibbs Free energy, to deduce equilibrium concentration in a generaous pre-biotic soup, and we see thatit is vanishingly small. [10^-338 molar for a 101 monomer protein.] More modern arguments such as Trevors and Able, use probabilistic and related thinking and arrive at the same basic result. No wonder Honest Shapiro has recently re-stirred the OOL pot! (I think Meyer has a serious point on the similar challenge to get to step-changes in complex biofunctional information through “lucky noise” in life forms required by NDT to drive say the Cambrian life revolution — ie, the challenge of body-plan level macroevolution, as his now famous paper argued.] That is, the functionally specified outcomes are so maximally improbable that they exhaust the available probabilistic resources, relative to an assumption of chance [and necessity] only. If we see a room in which all the oxygen molecules are at one end, we infer intelligent agency. If we see a jumbo jet, we do the same. If we see an intelligible post in a blog thread, we do the same. Why then, do many – absent worldview level question begging [often labelled here, methodological naturalism] – infer from the even more complex functionally specified, complex information in the nanotechnology of life at cellular level, that it is explicable in terms of chance pluys necessity so we can rule out agency, even ahead of time? Is this not grossly inconsistent? Then, having thought a bit about that underlying context, let us look at ongoing mathematical attempts to define what we observe in nature and recognise intuitively, e.g. as Mr Dembski has done, as models, not the reality that the models seek to capture. That way, we can be objective about the success/failure of the models [I view Mr Dembski's work as work in progress, with great promise and interesting potential applications], without losing sight of the underlying reality. (NB: I find that evolutionary materialism advocates are often guilty of using that confusion to dismiss the underlying intuitive point, and then gleefully pounce on debates over the matter to assert that the concept is “hopelessly confused” and can be brushed aside. But, in modern educational psychology, I long ago learned from the pioneer cognitivist, Richard Skremp, that a CONCEPT and its verbal expression are quite distinct. Mathematical descriptions are of course an extension of such verbal descriptions.) So, let us keep this issue in due proportion. >> +++++++++ The more things change, the more they remain the same! KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2013
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KF, Here is your first appearance as a commenter. See comment 108. This was a very interesting discussion for those wishing to know where ID was on UD 6 years ago. https://uncommondescent.com/biology/michael-egnor-responds-to-michael-lemonick-at-time-online/jerry
January 28, 2013
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Hello Jerry, I had wondered what happended to you. I remember you several times taking such a pointless beating from ID opponents for holding on to the most modest and rational positions, and doing so with such patience. I also remember you commenting about being in school, and advancing your education. It's good to know all is well with you, and I hope you might visit here more often.Upright BiPed
January 28, 2013
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Jerry:
I was involved in a discussion on CSI when KF popped up for the first time.
All I recall was that about that time, I was flying kites with my son. Do you remember or have a link to the thread? KF PS: And yes, using functional specificity as the form of specification resolves a lot of loose ends regarding CSI. Cf. here on for some exposition, in an online draft community independent course. Note the worked out eqn after you left as a log reduction and functional focus of the 2005 CSI expression: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold With proper interpretation, this is substantially equivalent to the per aspect explanatory filter.kairosfocus
January 28, 2013
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es58, I was banned a couple times, once by Dembski and once by DaveScot. I was/am a big supporter of ID so I got back in quickly after explaining my case. That had nothing to do with why I stopped commenting here. I stopped here because it was a real "time suck." After 2008 I had to pay more attention to business and I also decided to poke my nose into political and economic issues instead. The UD RSS feed is on my email so I occasionally scan some of the comments. But my wife would kill me if I decided to get involved again. So my comments here are temporary. But I would like to explore the theodicy issue since I believe it is a non issue not only for ID as Timaeus has pointed out but for believers in the Judeo/Christian God as well. I tried to do that here several times but no one took up my challenge to define just what evil was. Timaeus, Thank you for the comment on theodicy. It is one more to add to my arsenal. I am not a scientist though I have been in two Ph.D. programs, getting ABD in one before starting a new business with my wife and her business partner. The business requires that I know some biology so I started studying it on my own for business reasons but also to understand the basics of DNA and cellular biology etc. I believed in Darwinian ideas through a lot of my adult life. On the surface it makes a lot of sense but got curious when I saw a well respected U California professor get censored for questioning it. There was a conferfence in New York City in 1998 with Dembski, Behe and Meyers and I got hooked after attending, reading everything I could find. Took about 8 years to sort it out because there were so many loose ends. I was involved in a discussion on CSI when KF popped up for the first time. Still not sure if anyone can define CSI clearly but FCSI came out of that which is a killer idea against atheism. I am very interested in the psychology of the debate these days as well as the actual content. I also find the same pattern of evasiveness/mis-direction/use of ad hominems in the political/economic area as well. The same attitude that "what they believe is correct" despite any evidence presented to the contrary is rampant there as well as in the evolution/ID/science debates. What is it about some people that leads to this behavior? That could be the focus of a dozen dissertations. My take on the theodicy issue came from all places, the teaching of marketing to business school students. One aspect of marketing is about solving problems and no matter what problem is solved, there will be new ones to replace the ones solved that are just as significant to the consumer. This led me to look at problems as relative and that evil was also a relative concept which led to the consideration of just what was the greatest evil or the worse thing that could happen to someone. That is part of the theodicy issue. Another part is what would human behavior be like if either knowledge of God was certain or knowledge that there was no God was certain. Neither one would be pretty. In one of the OPs a few months ago that I found looking for your comments was a link to a presentation by Paul Nelson. In it he talks about Bertrand Russell and what he would say if he should die and meet God. Russell apparently said, that he would ask God why He didn't give us better or more information. Russell never thought through what life would be like if God did this. As it was at the same time we got both Russell and Chesterton. Both had the same information. Another aspect of the theodicy issue is found in the Book of Job. Michael Sugrue had a fantastic lecture on this and in his lecture he points out the folly of trying to know the mind of God which means that my speculation above is probably folly but apparently God does give us clues but not enough to satisfy everyone especially someone like Russell.jerry
January 28, 2013
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KF @ 377 Thanks - that's a good place to kick off.Jon Garvey
January 28, 2013
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F/N: Inference to design on tested, reliable observable signs, is an inductive exercise of essentially narrow scope. What the grounded inferences established thereby may imply onwards may be something else, but the fundamental point should be well within reach of someone who understands a good detective novel. The problems come in with the something else, and the evidently strong motivations out there not to go there. But for instance, can you identify an observed, known-origin case of complex code, data structures containing the code and algorithms expressed through the code, joined to complex executing machinery, that were not pervaded by design as cause? What does the needle in the haystack type analysis tell us about blind search per chance and/or mechanical necessity across relevant config spaces? What, then do such points at least suggest onwards about discovering that cell based life is founded on such things? KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2013
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JG: Try here as a first pass. KFkairosfocus
January 28, 2013
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Mung @ 369 Mung, do you have a source for that quotation from Gregory Nazianzus? Apart from being a very apposite statement of the position of the Eastern Cappadocian Fathers, and hence Orthodoxy in general, it fits very well into a survey of the Christian doctrine of creation I'm writing at the moment.Jon Garvey
January 28, 2013
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The purpose and role of individual words in the actual use of language have often been misunderstood with negative exegetical results. It is important to observe, for example, that the basic unit of linguistic meaning is the text as a whole taken in it's broader context. The basic unit of meaning is not the individual word taken in isolation. - Mathison, Keith A. From Age to Age: The Unfolding of Biblical Eschatology
How much more so whether the individual word is capitalized or not.Mung
January 27, 2013
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In re: Timaeus @ 372, Yes, that all makes perfect sense to me, too. One might also point to design arguments outside of the Abrahamic faiths for further evidence of the general idea that the design argument does not depend on theism as generally conceived. For example, there is a long tradition of thinking about cosmic and biological design in ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, all the way from Anaxagoras through the Stoics at the very end of antiquity. I don't know about non-Western sources but I'd be astonished if there weren't design arguments in Confucianism. In any event, I learned from Hume and Kant that the design inference is theologically neutral. That's my basis for drawing a bright line between design theory and creationism.Kantian Naturalist
January 27, 2013
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Timaeus @372: Excellent summary of the issue. Well said.Eric Anderson
January 27, 2013
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Jerry: I would never introduce theodicy into the discussion of ID, but many of ID's foes, both atheist and TE, try to use it as a weapon against ID, so I've doubtless discussed it, in order to refute them. I'm probably in agreement with you on the matter. Basically, ID's foes confuse (either through carelessness or malice aforethought) ID and creationism, and so they think that any argument against creationism counts as an argument against ID. So they say, a good God (by which they have in mind the Christian God -- all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, etc.) wouldn't allow, let alone willfully create, evil and suffering (carnivorous animals, etc.). So if there is suffering or evil, it must have crept into the universe by accident, from the vagaries of evolution -- which means there is no design. That's their basic argument. Coyne and Ayala for the unbelievers, and Ken Miller for the Christians, are some of many who argue in this way. But of course ID is not committed to the proposition that the designer must be the Christian God, or that the designer has infinite power, infinite goodness, etc. ID tries to show that there is design (and therefore a designer), not that the designer can achieve all that he wants, or even that the designer has only good intentions. So the existence of suffering, evil, etc. is not a problem for ID. It's a problem for Christian and Jewish theology (and maybe for Islamic theology, though I know little about Islamic views on evil and suffering). And of course the revealed religions have developed sophisticated responses to the problem. What's irritating is that Paley, in 1802, anticipated this misdirection -- this attempt to scuttle design arguments before they could even get out the gate by pointing to the evil of the world and saying "God wouldn't have ..." Paley made it clear that, in his view, design could be established even for a very imperfect creation with lots of suffering, lots of clumsy engineering, etc. And he gives a cogent argument for why this is so. But the foes of ID don't read Paley. The atheists would never bother to do so, and the TEs prefer to use him as a symbol of natural reason gone wild and trying to usurp the place of revealed theology -- and they couldn't possibly make that claim if they actually read Paley. (But then, most TEs haven't read Darwin, either, so what else is new?) Theodicy is a much bigger deal for the TEs and the YECs, because their respective liberal and literalist readings of the Bible require that questions of design be tied up with questions of theodicy. OECs, and ID people, don't have design and theodicy knotted up in that way, because OECs can accept a Christian God who willed suffering and evil, and ID people don't assume -- for design inference purposes -- the Christian God at all. Also, the ID-evolutionists -- people like Behe and Denton -- don't have to get exercised by theodicy, as if it's a threat to ID arguments. Their view of design does not require a God who would never will suffering. In short, if people want to argue that Christian theology is false because of suffering and evil, then let them take their complaint to Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant theologians and argue with them. But if they say ID is false because of suffering and evil, they simply don't grasp what ID is about. You mentioned starting a Ph.D. in math, but elsewhere you mentioned being a scientist. What field did you eventually settle on, if not math?Timaeus
January 27, 2013
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Jerry @370 Your comments here have been missed. There was a rumor out in the UD mirror universe - the one's who gaffaw at every post - that you had been banned from here. Good to find that's not the case.es58
January 27, 2013
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Timaeus, A couple comments: I began fetching many of your comments from UD. I had much better luck using google then the search function of UD. The reason for doing this is because I occasionally get into discussions of science vs. God on other sites and your insight is the best I have seen on the ID debate. For example, your comment at 100 is extremely good as others have mentioned. Interesting, the person I consider the best commentator on the current political scene also has a classics background. What was interesting about your comment at 100 was that it was needed. It was essentially said a couple years ago by you and should not have to be repeated again. One of the things about comments on UD was the need to repeat over and over again the obvious. It was that way during the years I was a frequent commenter. You do it so much better than anyone else. So maybe there should be a link to many of your comments and people here could just say "go read this." As far as this O.P. is concerned, I have my own point of view about ID. I capitalized it for no reason other than I used an abbreviation and wanted to separate it from the word "id." I believe a lot of the stumbling blocks about ID stems from some trying to make it a scientific discipline when in fact it is best understood as a tool used in many scientific disciplines just as statistics, mathematics or logic are. One of the issues is that some have a vested interest in ID being established as its own discipline and this has led some into some tortured lines of reasoning. It is obviously not as formally developed as logic, math and statistics are and ID employs all these as part of its process. But ID is definitely not a discipline such as physics, geology, psychology, anthropology or economics etc. It is used by some disciplines such as evolutionary biology, forensics, archaeology or cosmology to support or reject specific hypotheses. It may be better placed in the domain of philosophy as logic is. I also personally believe math should be part of philosophy rather than science. I say this as a former math Ph. D. student. The problem is that the physical laws of the universe and human nature are often so well described by math that it is hard to look at it that way. But math is often mainly a truth evaluator and that sounds like philosophy. In standard research practice, there is most often four separate processes. First, there is a background or write up of the issues and hypotheses are formed. Next, there is a discussion of methods on how to evaluate the hypotheses and the execution of the research. Then there is findings or results of the study. Finally, there are the conclusions. It is in this section that the hypothesis is supported or rejected. While ID can be part of all four areas, it is most essential in this last section where the design hypothesis is supported or rejected and can essentially expand the possible explanations for a phenomenon. So I look at ID as a research evaluator and not a discipline. This is how I believe Behe has mainly used the process in the Edge of Evolution. Food for thought and discussion. Finally, while skimming the links to OP's where you have made extensive comments I saw that the theodicy issue comes up frequently. I haven't yet read most of them so I do not know if you have much to say on this. My impression of this is that it is a red herring and would be interested in your thoughts whenever it appears again. I personally believe the theodicy issue is way over blown and there are good philosophical arguments for minimizing its relevance to ID. But anyway this is an aside and not relevant to the current O.P. Maybe in a future O.P. when it comes up again I will participate and ask my questions. Thanks for all your contributions.jerry
January 27, 2013
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Now our very eyes and the Law of Nature teach us that God exists and that He is the Efficient and Maintaining Cause of all things ... And very wanting in sense is he who will not willingly go thus far in following natural proofs...
For what is it which ordered things in heaven and things in earth, and those which pass through air and those which live in water; or other things which were before these, heaven and earth, air and water? Who mingled these, and who distributed them? What is it that each has in common with the other, and their mutual dependence and agreement? For I commend the man, though he were a heathen, who said, What gave movement to these, and drives their ceaseless and unhindered movement? Is it not the Artificer of them Who implanted reason in them all, in accordance with which the Universe is moved and controlled? ...Thus reason that proceeds from God, that is implanted in all from the beginning and is the first law in us, and is bound up in all, leads us up to God through visible things.
- Gregory NazianzenMung
January 27, 2013
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I thought Gregory was trying to indicate the distinction between an empirical scientific theory and a comprehensive philosophical system. I just couldn't figure out which was which.Kantian Naturalist
January 27, 2013
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But Timaeus, Gregory is Light Years Ahead of us.Mung
January 27, 2013
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Timeaus @365: Thanks for the wonderful imagery and a very humorous post! I liked this one in particular:
Gregory will insist that the use of capitals is deep with metaphysical significance, and that you must either accept all of that metaphysical significance, or formally repudiate your use of capitals, etc.
as a show of good faith i hereby repudiate my use of capitals on the remainder of this thread and punctuation as well for good measure :)Eric Anderson
January 27, 2013
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Mr. Murray, you wrote to Gregory: "You have apparently assumed that I’m making an argument that I am not making. You’ve imposed an framework here that has nothing whatsoever to do with my argument about ID as I intended it. Perhaps when some people simply write the letters “ID” or “id”, to you, that necessarily indicates all of the stuff you’ve been inserting into this thread; but your inference is mistaken. "Perhaps if you read the O.P. again, as if I’m not the surrogate of some ID movement continuing someone else’s arguement, you can get a better idea of the argument I’ve actually presented here." I think you have hit upon part of the explanation for Gregory's behavior. He quite often, in my experience, reads whole policies, philosophies, and world views into particular arguments, so that when his conversation partner believes himself or herself to be defending only the narrow set of proposals that he or she has formally argued, that conversation partner suddenly finds himself/herself under assault, with his unstated opinions on a whole range of other matters suddenly "on trial," and with motives imputed to him/her on no other ground than that his/her position reminds Gregory of someone else's, where Gregory thinks he knows the motives of "someone else." So you can use the phrase "intelligent design" quite innocently, in what strikes you as a "common sense" way that everyone here will understand, yet Gregory will likely read something else into it. And if you capitalize "Intelligent Design" (which you might easily do, as many writers, without conscious decision, vary the capitalization of the phrase), Gregory will read into that capitalization the usage of some other person who has made a special distinction for "ID" as opposed to "id." It does no good telling Gregory that you didn't mean anything in particular by the use of capitals; Gregory will insist that the use of capitals is deep with metaphysical significance, and that you must either accept all of that metaphysical significance, or formally repudiate your use of capitals, etc. He is simply obsessed with the ID/id distinction. Historical perspective would tell him that William Paley and Charles Darwin both discussed "design" and never bothered about whether it was capitalized or not. Philosophical training would tell him that the argument you are making does not depend on how you or anyone else capitalizes or lower-cases any particular terms. But history and philosophy do not matter to Gregory -- he sinks his teeth into someone over the use of a phrase, and his grip is like that of a pit bull. The difference is that if a pit bull realized that it had made a mistake -- that it had, in the darkness, bit the hand of its owner, rather than of the burglar, the pit bull would let go. But showing Gregory that he has misconceived the intentions of the person arguing does not make him let go. He is too committed to a certain analysis to stop once he starts. I do not know what causes this behavior in Gregory. I do not understand his psyche. And it is my impression that few people do. People might understand Gregory better if he could occasionally let up on the "pistols at dawn" style of argumentation and lay out some of his background concerns for us. I made a positive suggestion in this regard: He could give us a narrative account (non-argumentative) of the program he took at the Discovery Institute: its structure, its sequence, its teachers, its methods of evaluation, what he hoped for in entering the program, how he spent his time while he was there, what he learned about ID/id that he didn't know before, what he liked about the program, what he didn't like about it, what changes he would recommend, whether it would be a worthwhile experience for others, etc. This would help us to understand how Gregory perceives ID and id and why he makes such a sharp distinction between them, and would help us to understand how he might be reading some of his experience at Discovery into some of the arguments made here. It should have a beneficial effect on Gregory's reception here. It should allow us to read him with more understanding of where he is "coming from" and therefore read him more charitably. But for some reason, Gregory has not only not accepted my suggestion, but has refused even to respond to it, though I have made it several times, and under more than one column here -- and always politely. I can do no more. Gregory's motives are entirely opaque to casual readers here, and mostly opaque to even experienced posters here who have long experience of his style of argument. He knows -- or should know -- that it is not his conclusions, but his style of argument, which make him so unpopular here. He knows -- or should know -- that he comes across as extremely aggressive. He should understand by now that his approach causes *what* he is saying to be drowned out by *how* he is saying it. As a sociologist, Gregory surely knows the important of perception in the success or failure of many ideas and movements in history. It is therefore only sensible for him to ask: "Is it possible that I am so uniformly rejected at UD, not because every single poster there is stupid, ignorant, stubborn, dishonest, but because of the way I appear to the people there? Are there ways that I could express my position differently? If I were to appeal to UD people as honest, intelligent, worthwhile discussion partners with honorable intentions; if I were to eschew all ad hominem forms of argumentation; if I were to answer questions when people ask me them; if I were to read ID books that I have refused to read, and engage on their contents; if I were occasionally to concede a point when I am wrong; if, when someone concedes a point to *me*, I were to graciously acknowledge the concession as offered in good faith, rather than snarling at it as far from adequate and probably insincerely offered (see, e.g., 341 above) -- would all of this perhaps make me appear more reasonable to UD people, and therefore cause them to listen to me and learn what I have to teach?" But Gregory apparently never asks himself this question. And the result is bad not only for us, but for the very causes that Gregory champions. If people dislike the messenger of a cause, they will have a tendency to dislike the cause. One does not need a Ph.D. in social sciences to figure that out.Timaeus
January 27, 2013
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Flying RowboatMung
January 27, 2013
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F/N: Though I have already answered the material part of an appendix at 118 addressed to me [starting with my prompt but ignored remarks at 120], let me do a for record so the objectors at the usual sites will be plainly acting in the teeth of correction. Sadly, this is going to be a waste of a good slice of a Sunday afternoon, but it seems sadly to be necessary to address for the record. I interleave comments: _________________ >> KairosFocus will likely come back at this with his FSCI universalism.>> 1 --> Namecalling and setting up a strawman. At no point have I or any other person set up FSCO/I as a universal sign of design. For reasons again just outlined, we have warrant to see functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information as empirically reliable, analytically credible signs of design. >>Let him simply answer this question before adding a long post that tells us nothing specific about how human-made things (i.e. artefacts) have actually been (small-id) ‘intelligently designed’ in such a way that they can be helpfully addressed by Big-ID theory, which is not ‘designed’ to address them:>> 2 --> More strawman tactics. Design is a known cause of effects, and in many relevant cases leaves traces that contain signs pointing to design as cause. 3 --> in addition the terminology used is loaded with unjustified implications, and is inappropriate. >> What is the FSCO/I metric for calculating 1) the ‘complexity’ of any NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL team,>> 4 --> I have pointed out several times that such a team is a sociotechnical system, and will have many integral aspects that will manifest FSCO/I well beyond the threshold to infer reliably to design as relevant causal factor, e,g. the accounting system or files of player contracts. No grand estimate for total FSCO/I involved is needed and G knows or should know it. G has continued to speak as though I have not answered his case study no 1, i.e. he has constructed a false narrative. >>2) the probability of the events occurring as they did on 11-09-2001,>> 5 --> If G has done any decision theory, he would know that decisions are not probability points, as they are functions of deliberate choice. This is of course also in a context where G is probably trying to divert an analysis on SAMPLING of a space of possibilities, into a hoped for morass on calculating probabilities. 6 --> The answers to which are that a sampling result is far more robust than a probability estimate on some model of the space, and that the most relevant situation OOL in some chemical stew is subject to standard statistical thermodynamics and reaction kinetics analyses that come down to impossibly dilute concentrations of life-relevant polymers. 6 --> Further to this, the prediction of such actions is a task for strategic analysis, informed by a great many sources. FYI, in 1995 or so, Tom Clancy predicted a tactic of crashing planes into buildings that may have helped spark the line of thinking. In the event, that Tue morning, I received a call from home at work, and said, a bomber crashed into the Empire State Building in WW II, probably this is an accident. Maybe 1/2 hr later, a call on a plane hitting the second WTC building. My immediate reply was "That's Bin Laden." >>and 3) the colour tie and matching or non-matching sock colour that Barack Obama chooses to wear on any given day?>> 7 --> Strawman on steroids, playing at Saul Alinsky mockery by trying to drag focus away from what an explanatory filter based FSCO/I analysis does and tries to do, to demand something zany that can be used in cruel mockery. 8 --> With this step G's character crashes in flames. Of course, since he is doubtless playing the anonymity game, he may not care. But, this speaks volumes on what is really going on here. >> Please note, KF, I’m just looking for numbers, bits of information, etc. – a whole whack of pseudo-explanatory text is not needed or requested.>> 9 --> The same Alinsky tactics now continue. G knows or should know that he is asking for a row boat to sprout wings and fly, on pain of saying the rowboat is no good for what it is made to do and the one who built it is therefore incompetent. This is sadly, utterly unreasonable and utterly revealing of character on his part, or more properly, the want of it. >> Just provide the FSCO/I calculation numbers for these artefacts and events please.>> 10 --> And the Alinsky tactics continue. >> We of course *all* already know that small-d ‘design’ is involved in these things, so that should make it easier for you to calculate using mathematics and probability alone, since the small-d ‘designers’ of these artefacts can be observed, even if their small-i ‘intelligence’ is a much more complicated question. >> 11 --> Strawman tactic. More of the rowboats should fly or they are no good as rowboats game. Demanding an irrelevancy B in order to deride something that does job A well enough, is sheer rhetoric, revealing of G's character, and has nothing to do with design inferences. 12 --> G knows or should know that the design inference explanatory filter is first looking at hi/lo contingency, not probability. Low contingency events manifest natural regularities and we identify lawlike mechanical necessity in explanation. E.g. a dropped heavy object near earth tends to fall at 9.8 N/kg. 13 --> In the case of high contingency [such as which side of a die is uppermost], there are two known major causes that might be at work: chance, stochastic processes or design. We can toss a fair die and observe its statistics, or we could set a die to read a given value. 14 --> Suppose we came across 200 dice in a row [4,28 * 10^155 possibilities], in no particular order and reflecting the well known expected result, roughly 1/6 being in any given state of uppermost face. That would likely be by the chance result of tossing, and would require no further explanation. 15 --> However, if the dice all read 1 or 6, or went 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, repeat to 200 dice, we would instantly infer design. Same, if we were to observe that they spelled out the first 72 or so letters of this post in sequence. 16 --> Why? Because we intuitively understand the sampling result without needing to calculate any probabilities on any particular debatable model. We know the in no particular order states so outnumber specific and functional ones such as described, that we realise that with all but certainty, a random toss is utterly unlikely to produce anything else than a case from the bulk of the possibilities, on needle in haystack grounds. (This, BTW, is very close to the statistical reasoning behind the second law of thermodynamics.) 17 --> The explanatory filter is a way to use the above, and the expression for Chi_500 gives a mathematical model that does much the same thing. ___________________ So, again, G has refused to attend to cogent reasoning and results. That speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
January 27, 2013
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I wish ID people would come to realize that it is not possible to have a rational discussion with Gregory. He will not answer questions and the questions he asks make no sense. Obviously, his definition of Big ID is a puff of blue smoke from start to finish, and the few elements in it that are comprehensible are demonstrably false. Meanwhile, he lobs this muddled offering:
Simple question – Yes or No: Is there an ‘intelligent design’ theory of human-made things? If you want it asked in another way, is there a leader of the IDM that proposes an id/ID theory of human-made things?
What on earth does that mean? Is he asking about a theory for how humans design things? If so, it depends on which thing is being designed. Not all human made things are designed the same way. Is he asking about the thought process by which one design conception is ruled out in favor of another? There are as many ways of being creative as there are human beings. Is he asking about the means by which a design conception is transformed into a designed artifact? Not every creative idea makes the cut. Is he asking for a theory about how humanly designed things work? Not all designed things work the same way. Is he asking about a theory for the history of design? Some theories [postmodern] say that design is a function of history and that it emerges through social interaction and application. Other theories [realism] say it is a function of architecture and precedes its application. Is he asking about a theory that differentiates simple designs from complex designs? Is he asking for a theory of cultural attitudes about design? Is he asking about the religious belief in a designed universe that launched the birth of modern science? Is he asking about the cosmological arguments for design that supported and, in some cases, lead to the religious belief in a designed universe that launched the birth of modern science? Is he asking for the theory that will provide answers to all of the above? That would explain why he proposes the incredible idea of amalgamating theological,philosophical,scientific,historical,anthropological,sociological, and psychological paradigms (sorry if I left anyone out) into one global methodology for knowing everything about design from every specialized perspective? Is he asking about a theory for detecting the presence of human design? Well, no, we can rule that one out. The one thing that Gregory cannot abide is a science of design detection. I could go on, but surely you get the idea. Gregory doesn’t think through his questions. He doesn't understand that the scientist (or any rational investigator) must, to some extent, narrow down his topic in order to develop the appropriate methodology or to even make sense of the subject matter. His question is so naively constructed that no rational answer is possible. This is probably the same kind of question he asked when he “stumped” Bruce Gordon. Gregory is thinking, “I’ve got him! I’ve got the man.” Meanwhile, Gordon is thinking, “What in the name of sense is this guy talking about?”StephenB
January 27, 2013
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Upright BiPed, If you keep posting uncomfortable facts you'll continue to be ignored.Mung
January 27, 2013
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It would seem that some people think that the belief that God created the heavens and the earth is a matter of faith without evidence, of revelation without observation. But why must that be so, and what does Scripture say about it? Why should it be the case that revelation cannot come about by observation of the heavens and the earth? Is there some reason God cannot use our (five?) senses in conjunction without our thinking about what we have observed to reveal truths to us?Mung
January 27, 2013
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