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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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specified complexity
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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
C you stated:
If anyone claimed, seven years ago, that the mainstream scientific consensus was that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless, then they were wrong, as has been amply documented. By the same token, if anyone claims today that the mainstream scientific consensus has ever been that the majority of non-coding DNA is functionless, then they are wrong too.
And you were shown has this 'prediction' was born directly out of Darwinian theory in population genetics. You were also given ample evidence of Darwinists using this line of argumentation, for decades, to argue against Theism. Why do you deny what is obvious? Are you trying to play word games? I find you to be disingenuous to the facts. For crying out loud, Larry Moran and other hard core neo-Darwinists are still arguing, to the best of my knowledge, that the majority of the DNA is junk and that ENCODE is mistaken in their conclusion of widespread, super complex, functionality. ,,, If you are trying to defend Darwinism you are not doing a very good job, but if you are trying to undemine your own credibility to be objective in these matters, well than you are doing excellent job!bornagain77
January 25, 2013
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Also the pervasive personal and general invective about character and motivations in Gregory's posts aren't helping any.William J Murray
January 25, 2013
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Enjoy your waffles, syrup and weak tea, Timaeus. That's the obvious level of your intellectual integrity displayed here in this thread. No 'assault,' just honest words and sympathy for your obvious contradiction. Flip-flop Timaeus! Yes - Big ID and small id makes sense; no it doesn't - yes it does, not it doesn't... There is no Big-ID theory to validate W.J. Murray’s use of ‘intelligent design’ (in the OP) as he does. That's simply an IDM-inconvenient fact. Discussing Timaeus' marginal views about Big-ID/small-id 'design in nature' would not and could not serve to change this fact, so I won't press that diversion here. It is clearly not something worth a busy person wasting their time on to discover what a perpetual Big-ID proponent sock-puppet named 'Timaeus' thinks. Timaeus has ducked so many direct challenges in the past and continues to do so, such that 'bravery' and 'courage' are not words we could possibly associate with him. A guy who won't even admit openly that he's changed his song, when the evidence is clear to follow in the links above, that he first supported distinguishing 'Big ID' and 'small id' and now denies his own previous logic. What a delusional card! “Like any Christian (and indeed any theist), I believe that the world has been created by God, and hence “intelligently designed.” The hallmark of intelligent design [read: Big-ID theory], however, is the claim that this can be shown scientifically; I’m dubious about that.” – A. Plantinga KF: #155 translation "onlookers = comrades." We still await your numerical calculation of FSCO/I for the three examples above - just the numbers please. Torley obviously disagrees with you about the legitimacy of Big-ID vs. small-id. I'm quite sure that you won't provide the numbers and I'm not interested in reading any other text you produce here or on your blog that doesn't answer my very simple question. @ #261 - I've outgrown 'Darwinism.' Once you've understood this, and it may take many years, you'll realise how ridiculous and self-inflicting your strategy toward me is. '(neo-)Darwinism' has a worldview, not a theological basis. Darwin was not a theist. But Big-ID is still claimed by IDM leadership to be a 'natural-science-only' theory, which is supposed to (wink-nudge comrades) have nothing to say about worldviews. Do you honestly not see that as a (fragmented knowledge) problem?Gregory
January 25, 2013
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Claudius: Collins grants, pro forma, that there may be uses for junk DNA that we have not discovered, but his left hand takes away what his right has given, because he puts the concession in this way: "*some small fraction* of them may play important regulatory roles" (136)-- which implies that he thinks that a much larger fraction does not play such roles. In other words, he thinks (or thought at the time; maybe he is willing to eat crow in light of the devastating new report of last year) that "junk DNA" is essentially a valid concept, and that a large part, perhaps the majority, of the non-coding DNA is functionless. Now, the way he *uses* that is slightly different from the way Miller does, and Dawkins does. With Miller and Dawkins, it's the traditional: "A smart designer wouldn't put a lot of useless parts in his creation; but most of the DNA is useless; therefore, living things aren't designed, but arose through flagrant jerry-building by random mutations and natural selection." Collins gives the argument a slightly different twist: he doesn't argue directly that the mere volume of junk DNA disproves ID. He argues -- as you can see if you read the passage -- that the placement and character of some of the junk DNA can be used to infer an evolutionary history which ID denies. (Bear in mind that in his writing Collins usually conflates ID and creationism.) Still, he does endorse the existence of a high proportion of truly junk DNA, and he does use the presence of a lot of junk against ID. But I concede that his argument is a bit different from the one I outlined. But as I already said, the one I outlined -- found easily in Miller and Dawkins -- is found all over the place. The fact that you haven't seen the argument at all, let alone frequently, tells me that you are not nearly as well-versed in the anti-ID literature as I am. If you aren't inclined to take my word about the existence of the argument, all I can tell you is to read Wells's book (which you should read anyway, if you are going to argue responsibly about junk DNA, since he has a Ph.D. in developmental biology and has made an extensive study of the technical literature on the subject) and follow the references, and read the many entries about junk DNA on the Discovery site, which often provide references. You will find quotations in both places as well. I'm not going to take the time to type out the quotations. There is no doubt that the argument has been made, and made frequently, whether you have encountered it or not. And that's the last I'll write in defense of the mere fact that the argument has been made. In any case, you have already agreed that the argument, *if* made, is a bad argument, so we are not in disagreement about the theoretical issue. Eventually, when you discover that I am right that the argument is commonly made, we should be in complete accord. Best wishes.Timaeus
January 25, 2013
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Of related note, I hold that it is impossible to rationally practice science in the first place without theological presuppositions of some sort. This 'fact' is abundantly testified to by the Christian Theistic presuppositions that undergirded the founding of modern science:
The Origin of Science - commentary on Stanley Jaki's work http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html The Blackwell Companion to Science and Christianity - book http://books.google.com/books?id=qqGRqJT4aNQC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist
Where Darwinists try to skirt this issue, of the necessity of Theological presuppositions of some sort in order to rationally practice science, is that Darwinists presuppose certain Theodological premises about what a perfectly good and benevolent God should and should not do so as to make claims as to how God should and should not act (argument from evil), and to then try to argue that since their perceived violation of what a perfectly good and benevolent God should and should not do has been violated, then therefor undirected random processes, which can't care for us, must be true. One problem, among many, with this line of argumentation, as Dr. Hunter has pointed out, is that one must hold that 'natural evil' (death, pain, and suffering) are objectively real, and which is a Theistic presupposition, in order to make the argument in the first place. Yet the success of the argument undermines the objective reality of natural evil that was presupposed thus making the argument internally self defeating.,, As Dr. Hunter puts it:
“The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159 http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-God-Evolution-Problem-Evil/dp/1587430118
Another foundational problem that is hidden within the materialistic/Darwinian framework, that undermines Darwinism from within, is their appeal to 'randomness' as the ultimate creator, yet presupposing randomness as the ultimate creator of life, and even of the universe itself, undermines our ability to rationally practice science in the first place (Plantinga's evolutionary argument against naturalism: Boltzmann's Brain). further notes;
Random Chaos vs. Uniformity Of Nature – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6853139 "Random: A Carefully Selected Word" Dr. Michael Behe - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-MuGUVWeFs Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness - Talbott - Fall 2011 Excerpt: The situation calls to mind a widely circulated cartoon by Sidney Harris, which shows two scientists in front of a blackboard on which a body of theory has been traced out with the usual tangle of symbols, arrows, equations, and so on. But there’s a gap in the reasoning at one point, filled by the words, “Then a miracle occurs.” And the one scientist is saying to the other, “I think you should be more explicit here in step two.” In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness Murray Eden, as reported in “Heresy in the Halls of Biology: Mathematicians Question Darwinism,” Scientific Research, November 1967, p. 64. “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes32.html Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin - February 27, 2012 Excerpt: "In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of 'natural selection' in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely 'scientific' and 'rational,' they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word 'chance', not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word 'miracle.'" Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html
bornagain77
January 25, 2013
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Timaeus @257: I think that it's basically a case of broken communication between two entirely different conceptualizations. I think this often goes both ways in the ID/anti-ID debate; one side has a conceptualization that, when interpreting what the other side says, clearly indicates they are lying or being hypocritical or dishonest. But, really, from the other perspective, they are not, because they have a totally different conceptualization of .. well, just about everything. I think Gregory is certain of his interpretation/conceptualization (just as ID advocates often are), and probably finds it quite frustrating or infuriating when you say things that, in his mind, are clear cases of lying, or being cowardly, or waffling, etc. It's like sharing a language where the words and phrases mean entirely different things to two different groups, and then trying to have a successful discussion. To Gregory, apparently, human ID and the ID that may have designed the universe are two entirely different things - categorically different (unless I've interpreted him incorrectly, which wouldn't surprise me); to me, they would be the same thing - the actual, same commodity albeit on different scales. So, I wouldn't be too upset - what you are saying probably just looks a lot to Gregory like what it looks to us when people refuse to admit there is an obvious difference between a pile of rocks and a battleship. You're refusing to admit or agree to something that is, apparently, obvious from Gregory's perspective. That isn't to say that one view or the other, in such cases, isn't the right view; it just goes to show you how powerful and tricky the mind can be.William J Murray
January 25, 2013
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I have read Gregory's further assault upon me in 260. In it I see a discussion of the views of Gingerich, Torley, Dembski, Murray, and many other people whose views I did not undertake to assess, and I see a continual return to a conceptual distinction between "big ID" and "small id" which most people here have confessed they find unclear, and which I have already indicated that I have no wish to employ. What I do not see is a theoretical criticism of the position on intelligent design that I articulated in 200. A theoretical criticism does not consist of citations of people who disagree with the account being criticized. A theoretical criticism consists of arguments against that account. I would like to know why my views -- on the subject of design in nature and its detectability and on the authentic Christian theology of creation -- are incorrect, inadequate, or internally contradictory. I don't care how many people disagree with me. Truth is not settled by polls, not even if the people polled have Ph.D.s. I want to see the arguments. When Rousseau criticized Hobbes, did he cite twenty other thinkers who said Hobbes was wrong, in order to show that Hobbes was wrong? No, he gave his own critique of Hobbes's position. When Aristotle criticized Plato, did he rest his argument on the fact that the Atomists and Sophists disagreed with Plato? No, he did not. He provided his own criticisms and his own alternative. When Darwin criticized Paley, did he do so by means of a literature survey showing that the majority of contemporary zoologists considered Paley's thought to be old-fashioned and out of date? No, he criticized teleological thinking based on his own observations and reasoning, and provided an alternate explanation of his own to the apparent design in living things. I've given some reasons for thinking that design in nature is detectable. I've given my general reason for rejecting the common TE position on design. The challenge to Gregory is this: can he write a coherent critique of my position, without appealing to the opinion of other people? If he can, I am interested in his critique. I would gladly read and reply to five or six coherent paragraphs that directly address my arguments concerning design in nature, and contain no mention of the name or views of any other author.Timaeus
January 25, 2013
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Hi Timaeus @ 258 I asked you to quote a criticism of ID on the grounds that the genome contains too much non-functional DNA. You didn't, and instead referred me to bornagain77's quotes. I read them as well as cross-referencing several of the original books. No such criticism was there. Now I've read the reference in The Language of God. No such criticism was there, either. What I'm asking for is a quote like what you originally claimed -- where a critic attacks ID for holding that the bulk of the genome is functional, on the grounds that (in the critic's view) the bulk of the genome is non-functional. I've looked at several references you pointed out and they don't say that. I'm not going to run around any more looking at links and books -- please just quote the relevant words here on this site. ThanksCLAVDIVS
January 25, 2013
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G, given your seemingly single minded obsession with ID's (or is that id's) theological implications and positioning, does it not strike you as extremely strange that Darwinism itself has a theological, not scientific, basis that is crucial to its perceived success as a argument, or has this little imbalance in how you 'fairly' view the overall evidence escaped your notice? Why is this matter not also important to you?bornagain77
January 25, 2013
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(cont’d)
“I believe in intelligent design, lower case i and lower case d. But I have a problem with Intelligent Design, capital I and capital D. It is being sold increasingly as a political movement, as if somehow it is an alternative to Darwinian evolution.” – Owen Gingerich (God’s Universe. Cambridge: Belnap Press, 2006)
One of Timaeus’ major problems is that he speaks nothing, i.e. keeps silent while nevertheless personally culture warring, about the ‘political movement’ of the IDM. This explains why he is not (officially, publically) part of it (who knows what he does in private). Instead, he wants to speak quasi-scientifically about ‘pure theory’ and ‘ideas’ when the discussion cannot be properly held in the vacuum of Timaeus’ mind and heart. Gingerich, Randy Isaac, George Murphy, Stephen Barr and Ted Davis are openly identified with their views and do not hide behind pseudonyms on blogs out of fear of being ‘expelled’ because they frankly have nothing to fear for speaking out responsibly to their religious traditions. Torley's views on the importance of distinguished small-id from Big-ID are given above. Timaeus tries to paint a false picture for Big-ID enthusiasts here at UD that *only* I use the distinction between Big vs. small as ‘jargon.’ Yet as anyone can see in public discourse, Gingerich, Isaac, Murphy, Barr and Davis, scholars who Timaeus generally respects (but only up to the point that they reasonably, clearly and unequivocally reject Big-ID theory!), also distinguish between Big and small regarding ‘Intelligent Design/intelligent design.’ Obviously Timaeus either honestly doesn't know or he is lying. As seen above, even Torley states: “You make a good point about the distinction between (capitalized) Intelligent Design, and (lower case) intelligent design.” So what is Timaeus’ beef exactly based on and why can’t he convince himself to publically criticise W.J. Murray for using the terms small-id ‘intelligent design,’ as if it is backed by some kind of Big-ID theory, to be used regarding human-made things, i.e. artefacts, when quite obviously it is not? How can Timaeus' contradictory position be explained? Big-ID proponents should drop the motive-talk and include the reflexivity dimension, which is sorely lacking in one of the most disanthropic pseudo-scientific theories present today in science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse, i.e. Big-ID theory. Adrian Bejan speaks of small-d ‘design in nature.’ He wrote a book 2012 about it that surely someone could display the courage to review at UD. But nobody has done this. Why not?! Even V. Torley encouraged people to take Bejan more seriously, but they have thus far done nothing (other than one paper at jonathanb’s conference and Holcumbrink’s one-off non-review on his personal blog, inspired by Bejan’s book!). Bejan’s ‘design in nature’ is small-d because it accepts no supernatural ‘Designer.’ Yet strangely, and this is interesting, it is also Big-D like the IDM’s Big-ID because it claims *scientificity* for his meaning of ‘design w/out a designer.’ As I said before, there is an irony here; it is that Big-D ‘Design’ of Big-ID theory variety, and small-d ‘design’ as in Bejanian ‘design in nature’ both claim ‘(natural) scientificity.’ Big-ID theory as promoted by the IDM *dies* a painless death the moment it claims to study an actual real ‘designer/Designer’. This is why it doesn’t claim to address ‘designer(s)/Designer(s)’ of any kind in particular. This is also what delivers it amazingly weak explanatory power as a ‘theory’ and why it thrives on implicationism. Of course, almost all IDM-Big-IDists are Abrahamic monotheists who believe the ‘Designer’ behind Big-ID is the G-d of the Abrahamic faiths, especially Christianity (other than Berlinski who has no positive vision of ID to offer, being an agnostic Jew). Again, these are just facts, nothing personally antagonistic or psychoanalytic which might be seen as making people feel uncomfortable. Be comfortable with these truths, UD readers, because they ‘follow the evidence where it leads’ even to be able to say this. “There’s too much jargon in the world already; why add to it?” – Timaeus The concept-duo ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ is ITSELF jargon. So shouldn’t we then by Timaeus’ own contradictory logic drop it too?! There are a lot of people out there (this might surprise Timaeus, who doesn’t seem to get out much) who would with open arms support a campaign of dropping ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design’ as needless jargon. Otoh, I’m a guy who likes considering what neologisms might or could mean and am not so needlessly captive to 30 yrs-outdated backwards-thinking as Timaeus. “Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans employ it. I use it directly.” – W.J. Murray Let’s focus then back on the OP. What Murray wrote is not a ‘scientific’ theory of ‘intelligent design.’ It is something else, something non-scientific; something attempting to transfer a concept duo outside of its claimed domain. Can this be publically agreed at UD? Iow, the way W.J. Murray communicatively uses ‘intelligent design’ in the OP has no basis in Big-ID theory and thus gets no backing from it; Murray’s usage of ‘intelligent design’ to (human-made) artefacts is just unnecessary jargon (as Timaeus should humble himself to recognise it). There is no Big-ID theory to validate Murray’s use of ‘intelligent design’ as he does. Can you at least admit that, Timaeus? It should be obvious to anyone reading this who isn’t trying to universalise ‘design/Design’ by ‘intelligence/Intelligence’ and who is careful with how they express them-selves on this topic. Timaeus wrote in #73: “I agree that “we can infer that this *artifact* is designed” is circular.” Yes, artefacts are by definition made, built, designed, constructed, composed, sculpted, programmed, manufactured, etc. This is why Kantian Naturalist’s perception is valid and effective, why it is so important (and also why it is all too easily sloughed off by Big-ID advocates). It is sheer dancing rhetoric to try to subsume all of those verbs under the single term ‘intelligent design’ as Murray does and also unnecessary. “The way that [read: Big-ID] design theorists get around this is to say something that basically comes down to, “organisms and artifacts are exactly alike, except for all the differences”. That’s weak tea, man.” - KN Yes, it is ‘weak tea!’ Party-line Big-ID folks, however, seem to try to avoid KN’s #4 like a plague because it so accurately describes their position. Timaeus’ attempt to massage the dilemma in #73 was a failure because Timaeus himself doesn’t insist on the ‘scientificity’ of Big-ID theory and likewise doesn’t collapse ‘organisms’ into ‘artefacts.’ He doesn’t think dirt and slugs are ‘intelligent/Intelligent’ in the way that Big-ID theory would require them to be if it considered ‘Muliple Designers Theory’ (MDT). But most people here at UD are not as well-read about Big-ID theory as Timaeus or I and are seemingly not cognisant of the importance this difference makes. Or at least, they haven’t been willing to openly express themselves about it at UD so far. Some people here even think organisms are machines or that organisms contain machines simply because some people in biological sciences use mechanistic language to describe them. But Dembski has repeatedly stated that Big-ID theory is not a mechanistic theory. So, let’s relax folks, sit back and have some syrup with those Big-ID waffles and weak tea! “Naturalism is the intellectual pathology of our age. It artificially constricts the life of the mind and shuts down inquiry into the transcendent.” – W. Dembski “Like any Christian (and indeed any theist), I believe that the world has been created by God, and hence “intelligently designed.” The hallmark of intelligent design [read: Big-ID theory], however, is the claim that this can be shown scientifically; I’m dubious about that.” – A. Plantinga Along with Plantinga and many others, I am dubious about Big-ID theory’s scientistic (read: natural-science-only) claims. Repeat: Big-ID is properly understood as a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation. p.s. perfectly on cue appealing to the Big-ID community/movement by a wide-marginal figure; when Timaeus writes “Dear UD People” he actually really means “Dear Comrades! Don’t think for yourselves, just join with Timaeus.” V.J. Torley already agrees that Big-ID vs. small-id is a meaningful distinction. So, yet another ‘big tent’ dilemma at UD for Timaeus to try to negotiate among the movement that he denies being part of from the margins.Gregory
January 25, 2013
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Gregory wrote (254): "Timaeus apparently spends hours crafting slick rhetorical answers and elaborate turns of phrase and it takes not more than a few minutes to refute them and show their weaknesses, follies and internal contradictions." I would very much appreciate being shown the "weaknesses, follies and internal contradictions" of my position *as stated in 200 above*. Which points in 200 above are "weak" and "foolish"? And which parts of 200 above are in contradiction with other parts of 200 above? I think a discussion of my actual argument, as opposed to a continuous stream of allegations about my imagined motives, could be profitable, but I have as yet seen no such discussion. I certainly will respond politely and quickly to all non-polemical and on-topic criticism *of what I wrote in 200*.Timaeus
January 25, 2013
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Claudius: I intended for you to look not only at bornagain's quotations, but also at the many links he provided to online sources and at the books and articles that he referenced. I would have referred you to the same sources. I also have assumed that you would not be entering these discussions without having read the standard controversial works by atheist, ID and TE proponents. You will find neo-Darwinist Ken Miller present the general argument I've mentioned (a designer wouldn't employ useless parts) in *Finding Darwin's God*, and the specific junk DNA argument in an article, the reference to which is given in Wells's book. (I presume you have Wells's book. If you don't have it, you should, because it's the most up-to-date study on the history of the junk DNA subject in the professional literature). Francis Collins, a neo-Darwinian famous for his work on the Human Genome Project, makes an anti-ID argument from junk DNA on pages 136-137 of his book *The Language of God*, which I would also presume that you have read. Dawkins makes it in a location given by Wells. You can find it on scores of websites, in talk group and blog column arguments. I can no more list all the places I've seen the argument than I could list all the places I've seen where it says that Columbus sailed in 1492. If you follow these debates with anything close to the attention that I follow them, you will have seen the argument many times. I can't account for why you haven't. In any case, the argument has been repeatedly made, and I don't intend to take the time to find any more examples of it than what I and bornagain have already provided. Best wishes.Timaeus
January 25, 2013
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Dear UD People: I ask for your advice regarding the recent exchange between myself and Gregory. 1. In an argument in which I was not originally involved, Gregory, in the course of criticizing a number of other people here (including William Murray), brought up my name (in several posts, starting at least as early as 118 above), and threw in some unprovoked personal digs against me. One of his complaints seems to be that I have some sort of personal responsibility to criticize Mr. Murray and others here, but am too cowardly and/or hypocritical and/or politically motivated to criticize other ID supporters. 2. I tried to ignore the personal flak, and I indicated (165 above) that I wished to avoid discussions centered on the ID/id distinction, because it was being made far too much of by Gregory. 3. Gregory responded, in a post containing more gratuitous personal flak against me, with the request that I present my current view on the ID/id distinction: "Then Timaeus should update us on what he means now" (195 above). 4. I tried to directly answer this request in 200 above. I tried, in that response, to avoid returning insult for insult, sneer for sneer, and stick strictly to the exposition of my view. 5. Gregory did not reply to me, though he replied to others, so I reminded him of my response, and requested an acknowledgment of it (238). 6. It is not clear that Gregory intended to reply to me at all, and I am unsure that he would have replied if I had not sent the aforementioned reminder note; nonetheless, he has now replied, in 254 above. 7. His reply in 254 is snarling in tone, as if enraged by something I have said to him on this web page. He accuses me once again of employing "rhetoric"; he calls my direct and prosaic reply "slick"; he makes irrelevant charges (having no bearing on the argument I've advanced) that I have not published any academic papers on ID; he accuses me of "back-peddling" [does he mean "back-pedalling"?] to "save face," thus imputing to me hidden motives for holding the view that I do, when I've laid out my reasons on the table; etc. Yet as far as I can tell, the aggression and the charges are entirely unwarranted; I have done nothing on this page but reply politely to his question about my current position. 8. Can people here tell me what I have said to Gregory in this discussion that would warrant his hostile attack? Was my clarification of my position in 200 above impolite, sneering, or sarcastic? Did I say anything there that suggested I was being sneaky, insincere, or disingenuous? If so, how could I have written my reply differently? 9. It's no secret here that Gregory does not like me or my positions. But I can't do anything about that. All that I can do, when I interact with him, is to try not to drag up past combats, and not to respond to personal attacks in kind, and try to stress points of agreement (as I did above in my comments in 200 on the value of social science approaches to design), in hopes that Gregory will see that I am trying to turn things around, and have a rational discussion. But I am not succeeding. So either I am speaking in a way that is offensive to Gregory, without knowing what it is that offends -- in which case I need the perspective of others here to help me see what I'm unintentionally doing; or Gregory's personal dislike of me is now so entrenched and habitual that nothing I can say, no matter how carefully and politely put, will ever change his attitude toward me; in which case I should stop responding to Gregory completely. I hope others can give me useful advice on this point.Timaeus
January 25, 2013
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Hi Timaeus @
CLAVDIVS: “I do not recall ever having read a criticism of ID on the grounds that the genome contains too much non-functional DNA. Perhaps you could quote one?” TIMAEUS: bornagain77 has given copious quotations and references in 229 and 230 above. For more, consult *The Myth of Junk DNA*(published in 2011) by Jonathan Wells.
I read bornagain77's quotes. Not a single one criticises ID on the grounds that the genome contains too much non-functional DNA. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 25, 2013
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Onlookers: At this point, I think the best response is to simply not grant Gregory the use of highly tendentious language that distorts the actual usage of practitioners on the imagination that it is an independent or objective analysis. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2013
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Now Timaues is waffling from what he said before – follow this evidence where it leads, folks, and see for yourselves. Timaeus, you have not published a single academic paper in a peer-reviewed journal about Big-ID theory. I have. Please don’t attempt bullying-up to me into answering you within a day or two at a blog like UD. Frankly, I don’t find your pro-Big-ID arguments much of a challenge and have other priorities. I’ve made the offer open for you to come out from under your pseudonym and debate me publically; you’ve refused. (But I’ve given my word to Denyse not to ‘out’ you publically at UD and intend to honour that.) Obviously you are not as busy as the professional biologists (both theists and non-theists) you relentlessly criticise or as I am, since you have so much time to write on Big-ID-friendly blogs in the safety of Big-ID movement supporters. I don’t fancy spending much time responding to pseudo-professional Big-ID proponents who have little more to do in their lives than to promote a ‘scientific revolution!’ in the name of Big-ID theory. Timaeus apparently spends hours crafting slick rhetorical answers and elaborate turns of phrase and it takes not more than a few minutes to refute them and show their weaknesses, follies and internal contradictions. Let’s follow the evidence where it leads: It was Timaeus who first raised the issue of (what he calls) ‘small id’ and ‘big ID’ and what I call ‘small-id’ and ‘Big-ID.’ (Perhaps he was trying to fool us all, as an April fools joke and didn't actually mean what he said?!) Timaeus most likely got this distinction from ASA list, though we’re not allowed to talk about that here at UD. Now, in this very thread, Timaeus is back-peddling to try to save face for his beloved Big-ID theory because perhaps now he sees how devastating an argument Gingerich has actually made against the seemingly purposeful deceptions of the IDM, i.e. their flip-flop usage of either Big-ID (Intelligent Design) or small-id (intelligent design) as it suits their rhetorical purpose. If Timaeus or anyone else had intellectual integrity, they would stop the flip-flopping and speaking with forked tongues, sometimes capitalising Big-ID and sometimes not with small-id! V.J. Torley recently said this to me at UD, without the shadow of Timaeus bearing down:
“You make a good point about the distinction between (capitalized) Intelligent Design, and (lower case) intelligent design. The latter belief does not require that the Designer left any visible, discernible traces of His activity.”
Though Torley has since refused to dialogue with me because he seems to think I pose a danger to his Catholicism (which is so far from true as to be ridiculous!!), at least I respect that Torley actually speaks plainly and sees the importance of the proper distinction of capitalized vs. lower case, instead of waffling about it like Timaeus. Unfortunately, Torley still seems to be as convoluted as Timaeus on this topic. He writes: “The arguments for this Designer are scientific, not theological.” The other approach is the one Gingerich claims, i.e. that a Big-D ‘Designer’ is a theological, not a scientific argument or topic of open discussion. Most Abrahamic monotheists agree with Gingerich against Torley and the IDM (the latter categorically display ‘scientism’ rather than invoking a balanced science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation) for sound and orthodox reasons against trying to ‘scientifically’ prove the existence of God, which is both traditionally and contemporarily a properly ‘theological’ topic.
“why continue to employ such jargon? Why not drop the terms and simply let people describe their positions on design in nature, and defend them, without labelling them as “big” or “small”?” – Timaeus
Why? Because it makes good sense and is communicatively responsible to traditional Abrahamic monotheism. And because it helps to clear the muddy waters encouraged by those who confuse Big-ID theory and small-id, the latter being a responsible faith-based position. The distinction between Big-ID and small-id is valid both because of what it does to over-the-top ‘scientistic’ Big-ID claims (i.e. that *everything* is Designed AND that we can prove it using natural sciences) and because of who is employing it, which is almost exclusively Abrahamic monotheists. You are an Abrahamic monotheist, are you not, Timaeus? (cont’d)Gregory
January 25, 2013
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PS: I am wondering if we are dealing with some sort of theistic evolutionary view of the modern sort that is dismissive of the idea of observable evidence of signs of design; a view that there is such evidence cuts across a particular theology of divine action in the world that near as I can make out seeks to establish a view in which evidence of design in specific aspects of the world is not to be expected and the appearance of what seems to be signs of design is illusory and subject to a "God of the gaps" objection. To such a mindset, metrics and observations that point to grounding a design inference may well appear wrong-headed or even stupid and/or ignorant. The project of reasoning:
a: signs of design are real, observable and per inductive examination empirically reliable b: such signs appear in the natural world in various aspects, as credible traces of the past of origins ________________________________ Therefore, c: There is empirical warrant that the origin of these features is best explained on design d: However, this by itself is a that twerdun, not a whodunit, nor a how twerdun
. . . will likely be rejected by one who thinks in such a way as wrong-headed. However, the pattern of reasoning on reliable signs compared to traces of the past we cannot directly observe is the framework in which origins science has developed since C18 - 19. And, frankly, such resulting models have sometimes gained currency on far weaker sign accreditation than the design inference has. For instance, there is no good empirical case that spontaneous chemistry etc in some little pond etc will reasonably give rise to the functional organisation of the cell, but FSCO/I is often produced by intelligence. Similarly, there has not been observation that cumulative chance variation and differential reproductive success can give rise to novel complex body plans. Much of the apparent force of the reasoning behind these models rests on the assumption that in scientific reasoning one may only properly explain naturalistically. This methodological naturalism, however, has the effect of either begging the question and censoring the answers to be considered, or else diverts science (especially on origins) from seeking the truth on our world as led and controlled by observable evidence.kairosfocus
January 25, 2013
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SB: The next problem seems to come in with the suggestion that Forrest's Cheap Tuxedo claims are more or less right. G then proceeds to try to dismiss any actual process of addressing what the design inference and theory actually are about [per the actual on the ground statements, definitions and work . . . cf. what happened above with JG's stones], asking and addressing whether design is discernible in general on empirical signs, then onwards asking and addressing such signs in the cosmos or the world of life. Hence his sharp-toned dismissiveness to the Wicken- Orgel observation on the distinction between functional, specific complexity reflected in the organisation of life, and order or randomness, and onward quantifications and metrics. He seems to be dismissive as to how information is generally quantified -- negative log of probabilities derived from reasonable symbol frequency estimates and onwards, or a direct count from number of possible states which may involve observations of frequencies of occurrence [cf. Durston et al, Yockey etc] -- and particularly, of what the bit is. He seems to be very dismissive of probability estimation techniques, and should familiarise himself not only with info theory but also with both sampling theory and statistical thermodynamics, for relevant contexts. It will help him to see the informational view on entropy as a metric of average missing info on specific microstate given the lab scale parameters that define macrostate. This complex of problems creates a world of incoherence and endless confusion when he inserts his views cross-ways into a thread. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2013
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Oh dear, I forgot to put "small id" in lower case. It's important to get it right because Gregory has laid down a non-negotiable rule for his operative terms: He need not define them with precision, but we must punctuate them with care.StephenB
January 24, 2013
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Eric, Mung: Gregory uses these terms in a counterintuitive way. For him, Big ID = The Discovery Institute and the contemporary ID movement. Small ID = The traditional Christian belief in a transcendent God that designed the universe and created man in His image. (Biblical faith in a rational God that launched modern science). So, by his definition, small ID does assume a transcendent God. However, there are two serious problems with his formulation. [a] Big ID has no way of separating motives from methods [b] small id takes no account of traditional design thinkers who inferred design instead of assuming it. In other words, the two categories have not been well thought out and are, for all practical purposes, meaningless and even a little misleading.StephenB
January 24, 2013
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Eric, Gregory could care less about what ID assumes.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Gregory:
Small-id assumes a Transcendent Designer, but does not (unlike Big-ID) try to natural scientifically prove it.
ID does not assume a transcendent designer, so this is just false.Eric Anderson
January 24, 2013
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I'm new here but in the quick read through of the most recent threads I've found a honest, thoughtful, and above all fairly civil debate, so I thought that I would join in as these qualities seem to be rare on the web. Moving on. In all the discussions on ID that I've been involved in, the one salient point I've never been able to get past, and please forgive me if I'm digging up old arguments, but if the primary premise is that life is to complex to have arisen spontaneously and therefore must have had an intelligence behind it guiding it and designing it, who designed the designer? The discussion becomes circular. I have yet to encounter an argument that can answer, to my satisfaction, that fundamental question. Theists and proponents of ID always seem to fall back on some sort of dogmatic argument, and that is where the two points of view differ and the Theists argument, in my opinion, breaks down. A Theists would say 'I don't know the answer therefore it must be something that is unanswerable; it is too complex it defies explanation, and therefore must be a higher and/or divine power. A scientist/evolutionist says 'I don't have that evidence yet so I can't answer that question, but that doesn't stop me from trying to answer it, and if I'm wrong, I will abandon that hypothesis, come up with a new one and gather evidence in an effort to either support it or refute it. SawyerJT Sawyer
January 24, 2013
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Claudius: "Perhaps you could quote one?" bornagain77 has given copious quotations and references in 229 and 230 above. For more, consult *The Myth of Junk DNA*(published in 2011) by Jonathan Wells. In general, the anti-ID literature is rife with arguments of the form: "a smart designer wouldn't have done X." The junk DNA argument is usually a variant on that argument: "a designer wouldn't design something with useless parts, and so if life were designed we wouldn't see junk DNA." Such arguments are so common in books, articles, and blog sites that I can't imagine how you have missed them -- unless you are much less of a follower of these debates than most of the people who post on this site. (We know the literature that is critical of ID extremely well, because we are called upon to respond to it daily, in some medium or other.)Timaeus
January 24, 2013
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Gregory
small-id assumes a Transcendent Designer, but does not (unlike Big-ID) try to natural scientifically prove it.
Since Aquinas, Paley and other natural theologians didn't "assume" the existence of a transcendent designer but tried to "prove" the existence of a transcendent designer, neither of these two intellectual giants can, according to Gregory's standard, be properly placed under the banner of "small id." In what category is he going to place these and other like-minded proponents of natural theology, all of whom had more in common with Big ID (infering the designer's existence through the evidence of his handiwork) than small id (assuming the existence of God and his grand design)? More importantly, is Gregory even remotely familiar with the difference between the traditional faith-based approach and the traditional reason-based approach, each dating back over 2000 years. Or, is he so naive as to believe that there was no such thing as a design inference until Big ID began to find its voice in the 1980's.StephenB
January 24, 2013
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I just wanted to chime in as a relative new comer to understanding the deeper issues of dispute regarding ID and its antagonists. As an active Christian apologist, I will tell you that even now, once in a while there are still those who will claim junk DNA as proof for evloution. Whether academics had not, as a body say that junk DNA was just that, [which according to BA77's citations above, there were plenty using that terminology and saying it had no specific purpose] as CLAVDIVS wants to defend, the minions at my level only heard what they wanted to hear, I heard this regurgitation over and over again, so obviously, the people CLAVDIVS is referring to must've been doing in relative seclusion. FWIWBrad B
January 24, 2013
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Physics and Cosmology: Scientific Perspectives on the Problem of Natural Evil BIG I D or small i d?Mung
January 24, 2013
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God's Universe Owen Gingerich Chapter 3: Dare a Scientist Believe in Design? Yes, folks, that's a big-D.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Gregory's small-id struggles with the problem of evil:
The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God. When Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote his great Summa Theologica, he could find only two objections to the existence of God, even though he tried to list at least three objections to every one of the thousands of theses he tried to prove in that great work. One of the two objections is the apparent ability of natural science to explain everything in our experience without God; and the other is the problem of evil.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm well shucks, that seems to pre-date the IDM by just a few centuries. maybe gregory will design to explain why his view is orthodox. but i doubt it.Mung
January 24, 2013
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C: I am not going to bother with more than this: the status I reported was what I saw firsthand. You may not like it, but the truth is the truth and there are enough people who were there that they too know it, and know that the current rewriting as though it did not happen is utterly outrageous. And, actually, journal articles are irrelevant, I spoke and speak of conventional wisdom expressing the dominant opinion that was spread far and wide, as for instance BA documents from Dawkins even after the evidence started to harden up in a very different direction. (And BTW, if someone cares to trace it back there will be old threads at UD which will bring that out.) KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2013
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