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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design
specified complexity
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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
John C. Avise: "...contrary to ID predictions, the human genome is not irreducibly complex..." lol. what a freaking moron.
Chapter 4 - Wasteful Design - treats repetitive elements in the human genome, ranging from duplications and pseudogenes (dead genes) to several classes of ubiquitous mobile elements that look and act much like intracellular viruses.
Mung
January 24, 2013
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clavdivs:
If anyone claimed … that the mainstream scientific consensus was that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless, then they were wrong, as has been amply documented.
Amply documented where? Where is the ample documentation that establishes that: the mainstream scientific consensus was NOT that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless How do you propose to document that? clavdivs:
Documented in regular scientific journals. Let me see if I understand you. You can find some scientists who explored whether or not the vast majority of DNA was without function. All these scientists came to the conclusion that the vast majority of DNA was functional. Is that what you are asserting?
Mung
January 24, 2013
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Hi Timaeus @ 228
You could, at the very least, let me know whether or not you agree with me that some neo-Darwinians have misused the junk DNA concept against ID people, as, in your view, the ID people have misused it against the neo-Darwinians.
Here in the antipodes its work time so I have to be brief -- there are some genuinely substantive points worth addressing (@ 235, 236) that I hope to attend to this evening. To answer your question forthrightly, I do not recall ever having read a criticism of ID on the grounds that the genome contains too much non-functional DNA. Perhaps you could quote one? CheersCLAVDIVS
January 24, 2013
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Gregory: You asked me for clarification -- a restatement of my position based on the view I currently hold. I gave that clarification. I think I gave it politely (not replying in kind to the accusation that I was a rhetorician, etc.), and I stated my thoughts clearly, guided by entirely honest intentions, i.e., to convey to the readers here, including yourself, the thoughts that are in my head. You have since replied to a couple of other posts, but not to mine. I shall assume for the moment that you were busy today and intend to reply tomorrow. But if I don't hear from you, I'll think twice before spending an hour to craft a careful reply to you again. It's basic politeness to acknowledge when someone has made a serious intellectual and literary effort to answer your questions, by providing at least a minimal response. If you lack such courtesy, I see no obligation to accommodate your requests in the future.Timaeus
January 24, 2013
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Hi Timaeus @ 222
There is an internal contradiction in the thought of the culture-war biologists who spend their time blogging against ID. If they truly believe that Darwinian selection is so powerful that it prunes away most of the unnecessary “neutral” mutations and most of the no-longer-functional genomic material, then they have to drop the argument against ID based on useless non-coding DNA.
As I said to Kairosfocus @ 226: "If anyone claimed ... that the mainstream scientific consensus was that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless, then they were wrong, as has been amply documented." So I grant you that anyone using that premise in an argument was making an incorrect argument. Of course, what I have been pointing out in this thread is that your original argument @ 179 also used this wrong premise, and thus is also incorrect for precisely the same reason. Should I ever be participating in a discussion where this wrong premise comes up, you have my assurance I will not hesitate to point it out. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 24, 2013
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clavdivs, I think you're missing his point. The "clear winner" as I'm sure we'll all agree, is not decided by who publishes more papers in regular journals. But maybe I misunderstand your claim. But even if the "clear winner" was determined by who publishes more papers in regular journals, who would win? You've decided not to cite any papers that dis-confirm your thesis. Are there no such papers published in regular journals? I think Timaeus' argument is, and he can correct me if I am wrong, is that ID is the "clear winner" on theoretical grounds. The Darwinian theory is incoherent. On that ground alone ID could win, unless it is likewise incoherent. :) Speaking of 7 years ago:
In his best-selling book The Language of God (2006), geneticist Francis Collins claims that human DNA provides "powerful support for Darwin's theory of evolution, that is descent from a common ancestor with natural selection operating on randomly occurring variations." More specifically, he argues that our DNA demonstrates that humans and apes share a common ancestor.
The title of that chapter? Francis Collins, Junk DNA, and Chromosomal Fusion So I have a question for you: Have you read chapter 4 of Science & Human Origins? Have you read The Myth of Junk DNA? Wells' case is heavily documented. Far more than what you have given us.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Claudius: I'm more interested in your reply to 222 than anything else, but I'd respond to your comment above (233), that, while *some* evolutionary biologists expected most DNA to be functional, *all* ID proponents expected most DNA to be functional. So you have to account for the features of "contemporary evolutionary biology" which would lead so many (48%, according to your survey) biologists *not* to be surprised if the majority of DNA was non-functional. Why should the acceptance of mainstream mechanisms of evolution have led so often to such an expectation? You don't seem to have wrestled with this question. Have you even asked yourself this question? It also could be argued that if ID people uniformly predicted mostly functional DNA, and nearly half of those schooled in mainstream evolutionary biology predicted mostly non-functional DNA (according to your survey), and the evidence now shows that most -- maybe nearly all -- DNA has function, that ID comes out as the "winner" -- if the comparison is between, not individual biologists, but ID proponents *as a whole* and modern biologists *as a whole*. Mainstream biologists, statistically, were equally as likely to be wrong as right, whereas ID folks proved to be uniformly right. What else would "winner" mean in this context? If one team wins 100% of the races it enters, and the other team wins only 50% of the races it enters, which team should be judged as the winner?Timaeus
January 24, 2013
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Save for the fact that neo-Darwinism mathematically requires Junk DNA (actually it requires 'neutral' DNA) you may have had a point. But the fact is that the junk DNA 'prediction' flows, as was pointed out previously to you, directly from the mathematical considerations of the modern synthesis. I have no doubt that scientists, with 'common sense', no doubt ignored what was 'suppose' to be Darwinian orthodoxy towards Junk DNA simply because it is idiotic to do so, but for you to pretend that Junk DNA was not artificially forced upon biology by Darwinian presuppositions is simply to live in denial of the facts of history!bornagain77
January 24, 2013
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Hi Mung @ 231
clavdivs: If anyone claimed, seven years ago, that the mainstream scientific consensus was that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless, then they were wrong, as has been amply documented. MUNG: Documented where? How to you propose to establish what was mainstream and what was not? Surely not by citing just a few papers.
Documented in regular scientific journals. I don't propose to establish what was mainstream and what was not. I've established that - contrary to Timaeus' original claim - for decades scientists publishing in regular journals predicted functions for non-coding DNA, searched for such functions, and found many. Therefore, it is incorrect to claim that ID is the "clear winner" in predicting functions for non-coding DNA. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 24, 2013
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It's a battleship! Is not. But look, it floats. Nope. That's solid water holding it up. But look, it has a forward and aft. You're daft. That's port and starboard. But look, it's made of steel! snort. Like superman? No, not like superman! Superman would sink. There's a difference between organisms and artifacts you say? You're missing the point! It's not a battleship, or if it is, it's not designed. And besides, that's a univocal analogical argument. Sez who? Lex Luthor. But Lex Luthor is EVIL. Can you trust him? Lex Luthor opposes the IDM. That's good enough for me.Mung
January 24, 2013
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clavdivs:
If anyone claimed, seven years ago, that the mainstream scientific consensus was that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless, then they were wrong, as has been amply documented.
Documented where? How to you propose to establish what was mainstream and what was not? Surely not by citing just a few papers. One probably doesn't even have to go back 7 years. 2010. John C. Avise. Inside the Human Genome: A Case For Non-Intelligent Design Chapter 4. Wasteful Design: Repetitive DNA ElementsMung
January 24, 2013
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Casey Luskin response to Farrel - several quotes from Jonathan Wells book - 'The Myth of Junk DNA' - May 2011 http://blogs.forbes.com/johnfarrell/2011/05/20/the-myth-of-the-myth-of-junk-dna/#comment-153 Jonathan Wells on his book, The Myth of Junk DNA – yes, it is a Darwinist myth and he nails it as such - March 2011 Excerpt: Some people revise history by claiming that no mainstream biologists ever regarded non-protein-coding DNA as “junk.” This claim is easily disproved: Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel published an article in Nature in 1980 (284: 604-607) arguing that such DNA “is little better than junk,” and “it would be folly in such cases to hunt obsessively” for functions in it. Since then, Brown University biologist Kenneth R. Miller, Oxford University biologist Richard Dawkins, University of Chicago biologist Jerry A. Coyne, and University of California–Irvine biologist John C. Avise have all argued that most of our DNA is junk, and that this provides evidence for Darwinian evolution and against intelligent design. National Institutes of Health director Francis Collins argued similarly in his widely read 2006 book The Language of God. It is true that some biologists (such as Thomas Cavalier-Smith and Gabriel Dover) have long been skeptical of “junk DNA” claims, but probably a majority of biologists since 1980 have gone along with the myth. The revisionists are misinformed (or misinforming). https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/jonathan-wells-on-his-book-the-myth-of-junk-dna-yes-it-is-a-darwinist-myth-and-he-nails-it-as-such/#more-18154 First Holistic View of How Human Genome Actually Works: ENCODE Study Produces Massive Data Set - ScienceDaily (Sep. 5, 2012) Excerpt: "During the early debates about the Human Genome Project, researchers had predicted that only a few percent of the human genome sequence encoded proteins, the workhorses of the cell, and that the rest was junk. We now know that this conclusion was wrong," said Eric D. Green, M.D., Ph.D., director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI), a part of the National Institutes of Health. "ENCODE has revealed that most of the human genome is involved in the complex molecular choreography required for converting genetic information into living cells and organisms." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120905140913.htm Amazingly, many leading evolutionists (Ayala in 2010; Francis Collins in 2010) still insist that most of the genome, which does not directly code for proteins, is useless 'Junk DNA'. Francis Collins, Darwin of the Gaps, and the Fallacy Of Junk DNA - Wells, Meyer, Sternberg - video http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/francis_collins_is_one_of040361.html PZ Myers argues for well over 50% junk DNA in the following video: PZ Myers, the self-described Paris Hilton of atheists, on junk DNA - December 2011 - video https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/pz-myers-the-self-described-paris-hilton-of-atheists-on-junk-dna/ Casey Luskin responds to a mean-spirited attack by a neo-Darwinist on 'Junk DNA' - July 2012 Excerpt: (A) On the one hand, you try to rewrite history by arguing that evolutionary biologists never argued that the genome was full of junk ("Wells and Luskin have promoted the absurd falsehood that molecular biologists believed non-coding DNA was non-functional 'junk.'") (B) On the other hand, you then claim the genome is full of junk DNA. (“As for junk, it is between 65 to 91.3%.”) Do you not see how the fact that you’re making argument (B) makes it really hard for me to believe your argument (A)? In any case, your point (A) is an attempt to rewrite history, which is a predictable response to the overwhelming mass of evidence,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_are_the_to_1062011.html#comment-15282571bornagain77
January 24, 2013
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Junk DNA Predictions By Leading Evolutionists Haldane's Dilemma Excerpt: Haldane was the first to recognize there was a cost to selection which limited what it realistically could be expected to do. He did not fully realize that his thinking would create major problems for evolutionary theory. He calculated that in man it would take 6 million years to fix just 1,000 mutations (assuming 20 years per generation).,,, Man and chimp differ by at least 150 million nucleotides representing at least 40 million hypothetical mutations (Britten, 2002). So if man evolved from a chimp-like creature, then during that process there were at least 20 million mutations fixed within the human lineage (40 million divided by 2), yet natural selection could only have selected for 1,000 of those. All the rest would have had to been fixed by random drift - creating millions of nearly-neutral deleterious mutations. This would not just have made us inferior to our chimp-like ancestors - it surely would have killed us. Since Haldane's dilemma there have been a number of efforts to sweep the problem under the rug, but the problem is still exactly the same. ReMine (1993, 2005) has extensively reviewed the problem, and has analyzed it using an entirely different mathematical formulation - but has obtained identical results. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 159-160 Kimura's Quandary Excerpt: Kimura realized that Haldane was correct,,, He developed his neutral theory in responce to this overwhelming evolutionary problem. Paradoxically, his theory led him to believe that most mutations are unselectable, and therefore,,, most 'evolution' must be independent of selection! Because he was totally committed to the primary axiom (neo-Darwinism), Kimura apparently never considered his cost arguments could most rationally be used to argue against the Axiom's (neo-Darwinism's) very validity. John Sanford PhD. - "Genetic Entropy and The Mystery of the Genome" - pg. 161 - 162 A graph featuring 'Kimura's Distribution' being ‘properly used’ is shown in the following video: Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 At the 2:45 minute mark of the following video, the mathematical roots of the junk DNA argument, that is still used by many Darwinists, can be traced through Haldane, Kimura, and Ohno's work in the late 1950’s, 60’s through the early 70’s: What Is The Genome? It's Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 Kimura (1968) developed the idea of “Neutral Evolution”. If “Haldane’s Dilemma” is correct, the majority of DNA must be non-functional. The slow, painful death of junk DNA: Junk DNA is not just a label that was tacked on to some DNA that seemed to have no function; it is something that is required by evolution. Mathematically, there is too much variation, too much DNA to mutate, and too few generations in which to get it all done. This was the essence of Haldane’s work....Junk DNA is a necessary mathematical extrapolation...Without Junk DNA, evolution runs into insurmountable mathematical difficulties. http://creation.com/junk-dna-slow-death Susumu Ohno, a leader in the field of genetics and evolutionary biology, explained in 1972 in an early study of non-coding DNA that, "they are the remains of nature's experiments which failed. The earth is strewn with fossil remains of extinct species; is it a wonder that our genome too is filled with the remains of extinct genes?" Sternberg traces how the junk DNA argument developed through the mid 1970’s to the early 80’s and beyond in the following article: How The Junk DNA Hypothesis Has Changed Since 1980 - Richard Sternberg - October 8, 2009 Excerpt: Two papers appeared back to back in the journal Nature in 1980: "Selfish Genes, the Phenotype Paradigm and Genome Evolution" by W. Ford Doolittle and Carmen Sapienza and "Selfish DNA: The Ultimate Parasite" by Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick. These laid the framework for thinking about nonprotein-coding regions of chromosomes, judging from how they are cited. What these authors effectively did was advance Dawkins's 1976 selfish gene idea in such a way that all the genomic DNA evidence available up to that time could be accounted for by a plausible scenario. The thesis presented in both articles is that the only specific function of the vast bulk of "nonspecific" sequences, especially repetitive elements such as transposons, is to replicate themselves -- this is the consequence of natural selection operating within genomes, beneath the radar of the cell. These junk sequences, it was postulated, can duplicate and disperse throughout chromosomes because they have little or no effect on the phenotype, save for the occasional mutation that results from their mobility. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/how_the_junk_dna_hypothesis_ha026421.html Biologists are racking their brains trying to think what useful task this apparently surplus DNA is doing. But from the point of view of the selfish genes themselves, there is no paradox. The true “purpose” of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA. …. “creationists…might spend some earnest time speculating on why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA.” Richard Dawkins - Selfish Gene (mid 1970’s) https://uncommondescent.com/books-of-interest/new-book-junk-dna-junked-in-favour-of-what/#comment-374475 Selfish DNA: the ultimate parasite. Orgel LE, Crick FH. - 1980 The DNA of higher organisms usually falls into two classes, one specific and the other comparatively nonspecific. It seems plausible that most of the latter originates by the spreading of sequences which had little or no effect on the phenotype. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7366731 Dr. Wells gives some historical background as to why some neo-Darwinists are doing everything they can to discredit the recent (Sept. 2012) ENCODE findings: Why All the Fuss Over Some Junk? - Jonathan Wells - September 25, 2012 Excerpt: Some historical context might help. After James Watson and Francis Crick discovered the molecular structure of DNA in 1953, Crick announced that they had found "the secret of life," a popular formulation of which became "DNA makes RNA makes protein makes us." But biologists discovered that about 98% of our DNA does not code for protein, and in 1972 Susumu Ohno and David Comings independently used the term "junk" to refer to non-protein-coding DNA (though neither man excluded the possibility that some of it might turn out to be functional). Why didn't biologists simply call non-protein-coding sequences "DNA of unknown function" rather than "junk DNA?" For some, it was because "junk DNA" seemed more suited to the defense of Darwinism and survival of the fittest. In 1976, Richard Dawkins wrote in The Selfish Gene that "the true 'purpose' of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus [i.e., non-protein-coding] DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA." In 1980, W. Ford Doolittle and Carmen Sapienza wrote in Nature (284:601) that many organisms contain "DNAs whose only 'function' is survival within genomes," and that "the search for other explanations may prove, if not intellectually sterile, ultimately futile." In the same issue of Nature (284:604), Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick wrote that "much DNA in higher organisms is little better than junk," and its accumulation in the course of evolution "can be compared to the spread of a not-too-harmful parasite within its host." Since it is unlikely that such DNA has a function, Orgel and Crick concluded, "it would be folly in such cases to hunt obsessively for one." Two biologists then wrote to Nature (285:617,618) expressing their disagreement. Thomas Cavalier-Smith considered it "premature" to dismiss non-protein-coding DNA as junk, and Gabriel Dover wrote that "we should not abandon all hope of arriving at an understanding of the manner in which some sequences might affect the biology of organisms in completely novel and somewhat unconventional ways." Cavalier-Smith and Dover were not criticizing evolutionary theory; they were merely questioning the claim that non-protein-coding DNA is non-functional. After the rise of intelligent design (ID) in the 1990s, "junk DNA" became a favorite weapon against ID in the hands of some Darwinists, including Richard Dawkins and the four bloggers mentioned above. According to ID, it is possible to infer from evidence in nature that some features of the world, including some features of living things, are explained better by an intelligent cause than by unguided natural processes. The Darwinists' argument was that an intelligent designer would not have filled our genomes with so much junk, but that it could have accumulated as an accidental by-product of unguided evolution. In 2004, Dawkins wrote in A Devil's Chaplain that much of our genome "consists of multiple copies of junk, 'tandem repeats,' and other nonsense which may be useful for forensic detectives but which doesn't seem to be used in the body itself." Dawkins suggested that creationists (among whom he included ID advocates) "might spend some earnest time speculating on why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA." Dawkins continued to rely on junk DNA in his 2009 book The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution. "It is a remarkable fact," he wrote, "that the greater part (95 per cent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes." In particular, pseudogenes "are genes that once did something useful but have now been sidelined and are never transcribed or translated." Dawkins concluded: "What pseudogenes are useful for is embarrassing creationists. It stretches even their creative ingenuity to make up a convincing reason why an intelligent designer should have created a pseudogene... unless he was deliberately setting out to fool us." But if most of our DNA is functional, as the ENCODE results suggest, then the "junk DNA" argument against ID collapses. So the four bloggers listed above are doing everything they can to discredit the ENCODE project's estimate of functional DNA. Yet whatever the estimate may currently be, it is certain to increase with further research. In 2007, the ENCODE pilot project reported on the basis of about 200 datasets that our DNA is "pervasively transcribed," suggesting functionality. The 2012 results, based on 1,640 datasets, documented that "the vast majority (80.4%) of the human genome" is biochemically functional in at least one cell type. But ENCODE has so far sampled only a fraction of the cell types in the human body. Clearly, we have a lot more to learn about our genome -- but not if we start by assuming that most of it is junk. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/why_all_the_fus_1064721.html In 1994, the authoritative textbook, Molecular Biology of the Cell, co-authored by National Academy of Sciences president Bruce Alberts, suggested (incorrectly!) that introns are "largely genetic 'junk'": Unlike the sequence of an exon, the exact nucleotide sequence of an intron seems to be unimportant. Thus introns have accumulated mutations rapidly during evolution, and it is often possible to alter most of an intron’s nucleotide sequence without greatly affecting gene function. This has led to the suggestion that intron sequences have no function at all and are largely genetic “junk” Soon thereafter, the 1995 edition of Voet & Voet's Biochemistry textbook explained that "a possibility that must be seriously entertained is that much repetitive DNA serves no useful purpose whatever for its host. Rather, it is selfish or junk DNA, a molecular parasite that, over many generations, has disseminated itself throughout the genome..." Will Darwinists try to Rewrite the History of Junk-DNA? In 1996, leading origin of life theorist Christian de Duve wrote: "The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA." (Richard Dawkins makes similar pronouncements that DNA is junk in an article after 1998) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/06/will_darwinists_try_to_pull_a.html Another leading biologist, Sydney Brenner argued in a biology journal in 1998 that: "The excess DNA in our genomes is junk, and it is there because it is harmless, as well as being useless, and because the molecular processes generating extra DNA outpace those getting rid of it." The Unseen Genome, Gems Among the Junk: “I think this will come to be a classic story of orthodoxy derailing objective analysis of the facts, in this case for a quarter of a century,” Mattick says. “The failure to recognize the full implications of this—particularly the possibility that the intervening noncoding sequences may be transmitting parallel information in the form of RNA molecules—may well go down as one of the biggest mistakes in the history of molecular biology.” (John S. Mattick Scientific American (November, 2003) http://www.evolutionnews.org/bornagain77
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Claudius: At no point did I suggest that your statements about junk DNA were invalid on the grounds that you had not challenged neo-Darwinists regarding their attacks on ID. In fact, to drive home the separation between the two issues, I divided my follow-up reply into two posts, the one (198) concerning the issue of junk DNA, and the other (199) concerning your activity (or lack thereof) in the culture wars. In other words, you could be entirely right on the first issue (over what biologists in fact predicted about junk DNA) and still blameworthy for inconsistently withholding your criticism when you saw non-ID people using the same "error" about junk DNA for political purposes. I am therefore not conflating the two criticisms, but asking you to respond to each separately. Please have a look at my attempt -- in 222 above -- to show the inconsistency of some Darwinians on the junk DNA issue. I think that you should think seriously about that inconsistency, whether or not you choose to discuss your response to it with me. And by the way, I wasn't necessarily assuming you were being hypocritical. There are possible explanations other than hypocrisy, i.e., you might just happen never to have encountered a single Darwinian writer who used junk DNA as an argument against an intelligent designer; in that case you could hardly be expected to challenge such writers. (That would raise further questions about how familiar you are with these debates, but at least it would excuse your silence.) Or you may have seen such arguments, but not noticed the internal inconsistency in the position of the writer, until I pointed it out to you, just now. That, too, would excuse your silence. So I'll try not to jump to conclusions, and not to assume the worst possible motivation. But your silence on the question doesn't help. You could, at the very least, let me know whether or not you agree with me that some neo-Darwinians have misused the junk DNA concept against ID people, as, in your view, the ID people have misused it against the neo-Darwinians. If you agree with me on that now, and say so publically, then I'm inclined not to worry about your past silence on the subject, and not to level any charges based on that silence. But if you disagree with me, and think there is no contradiction of the sort I've pointed out, I'd like to know why.Timaeus
January 24, 2013
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Timaeus:
...over the past few decades evolutionary biologists have been modifying strict neo-Darwinism with bits of other explanations, and so evolutionary biology has been increasingly a hodge-podge of proposed mechanisms, no longer the strict NDE of Mayr and Dobzhansky.
Just the other day I came across this volume, and it's from 1985! Evolutionary Theory: The Unfinished Synthesis Chapter titles include: Evolution Without Selection Transcendental Evolution Emergent Evolution Holism and Evolution Evolutionary EpigeneticsMung
January 24, 2013
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Hi Kairosfocus @ 219
C: Seven years ago, the “assured” status of Junk DNA was commonly used in attempts to dismiss ID and ID thinkers or supporters. ID advocates stuck to their guns and predicted that the projection of up to 98% “junk” in the genome [IIRC] would be falsified as being grossly exaggerated. Now that the evidence is moving in that direction, there is an attempt to rewrite the history to pretend that the conventional wisdom of that time was not so. Sorry, I was there and saw it live. I know better, as do a great many others. KF
If anyone claimed, seven years ago, that the mainstream scientific consensus was that the vast majority of non-coding DNA was functionless, then they were wrong, as has been amply documented. By the same token, if anyone claims today that the mainstream scientific consensus has ever been that the majority of non-coding DNA is functionless, then they are wrong too. So when Timaeus made this same claim as part of an argument for the design perspective being a "clear winner" in predicting function for junk DNA, that also was wrong, and thus Timaeus' argument is not correct. That is all I am pointing out. The only ones attempting to rewrite history are those who claim that the mainstream scientific consensus has ever been that the majority of non-coding DNA is functionless. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 24, 2013
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WOW! Look what I found!
Explains how molecular and cellular structures evolved in different organisms.
I wonder if Mike Behe is aware of thisMung
January 24, 2013
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It's ok clavidivs, there are plenty of hypocrites out there on the neo-darwinian side. We don't really need you to be one too.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Hi Timaeus @ 199
My point about “not speaking up” was this: You come here to a pro-ID web site and “correct” an ID supporter by stressing that the view “most DNA is probably useless” was never the consensus of biologists, and is not strictly required by neo-Darwinian theory, but when, over the past several years, Darwinians (both atheist and Christian) have been savagely putting ID people down, all over the web (on this site, on TE sites, and on atheist sites), and one of their standard arguments against design has been “Why would an intelligent designer throw so much useless junk into the DNA?” (again, a sampling of quotations is available in Wells), I didn’t see your protest. I didn’t hear you saying, “Uh, excuse me, friend, but while I agree with you that ID is a deeply flawed position, this is not an argument you should be using against the ID people, as there is no scientific consensus on the uselessness of non-coding DNA.” Your silence suggests that you employ a double standard, allowing loose and unwarranted statements from the Darwinian side that you won’t allow from the ID side. If I’m wrong, you can show me by simply pointing out spots on the web where you have made the same “correction” to the kind of Darwinians that Wells has identified. But if I’m right, have the decency to admit that you are going out of your way here to “correct” me when you never took such trouble to correct the others.
It's hard to square this with your more gracious response below; nonetheless I'll comment briefly. What I did or did not say at some other time or place is irrelevant to the point at hand. Your suggestion that I am hypocritical is also appears to be an irrelevant ad hominem, specifically the fallacy of poisoning the well: CLAVDIVS seems to be a hypocrite > CLAVDIVS argument is invalid. Anyone can see this does not follow. So I do not accept the burden of showing I'm not a hypocrite, because it's irrelevant. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 24, 2013
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You, Claudius :-) : Regarding your 217 above, I don't recall speaking of "the reigning paradigm." I spoke of a "random mutations" approach, meaning neo-Darwinism. Now to be sure, neo-Darwinism has been the reigning paradigm, but the problem is that over the past few decades evolutionary biologists have been modifying strict neo-Darwinism with bits of other explanations, and so evolutionary biology has been increasingly a hodge-podge of proposed mechanisms, no longer the strict NDE of Mayr and Dobzhansky. I would guess that most of the evolutionary biologists of whom you speak, who were skeptical of the idea of "junk DNA," were not strict neo-Darwinians, and did not conceive of the evolutionary process as simply the filtering of random mutations by natural selection, but allowed a range of other mechanisms. ID of course targets mainly classic neo-Darwinism, e.g., Dawkins, Coyne, Miller, the NCSE. And many of the classic neo-Darwinians appear to have supported the "junk" concept. Of course -- to give your argument its due -- a strict neo-Darwinian *could* argue for the *utility* of most DNA, on the grounds that selection would prune out all or most genomic material that is not useful; and maybe some of the biologists that you cite reasoned in that way. But the problem with such a position, from my point of view, is that, though coherent theoretically, it cannot be used to attack ID by saying "an intelligent designer wouldn't have put so much unused crud into the genome." Do you see the problem? There is an internal contradiction in the thought of the culture-war biologists who spend their time blogging against ID. If they truly believe that Darwinian selection is so powerful that it prunes away most of the unnecessary "neutral" mutations and most of the no-longer-functional genomic material, then they have to drop the argument against ID based on useless non-coding DNA. And if they believe, on the other hand, that natural selection is blind to a good number of things which are neither helpful nor harmful (unused doubled genomic material in the non-coding portion, etc.) and therefore does not eliminate them, but carries them along for ages as free riders along with the truly functional DNA, then they *must* expect a large chunk of the non-coding DNA to be useless. They can't have it both ways. So let's say I accept your defense that even a pure neo-Darwinian evolutionary theorist can permit or even predict functionality for most of the "junk." Let's say I overstated the neo-Darwinian endorsement of the "junk" concept. Precisely if so, that means that neo-Darwinians such as Miller have been arguing incoherently when they say "a smart designer wouldn't have produced so much junk." So if you want to stick to your guns, please adopt the corollary of your view: that many of the culture-warring neo-Darwinian scientists have misrepresented the implications of their own theory of evolution, either due to scientific incompetence (failing to grasp neo-Darwinism's incompatibility with a large proportion of junk) or due to culture-war, tactical considerations (i.e., due to intellectual dishonesty) in their desire to destroy ID. If you will grant me this much, then we can "meet in the middle." And as a sign of good faith on your part, the next time you read someone like Ken Miller yapping about the incompatibility of a designer with such a high percentage of useless DNA, make a public statement against that writer, as you have here, against me. Deal?Timaeus
January 24, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
The documentary evidence disproves your point. Some biologists predicted function for junk DNA ever since it was discovered, they continued to research it, their research was not stymied by the reigning paradigm, and they in fact found function and published about it.
What was that reigning paradigm again?Mung
January 24, 2013
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'Can you (Gregory) state a single one of Aquinas’ Five Ways that does not begin with observations taken from the material world? Or were they not meant to demonstrate the existence of God?' Silence, came the stern reply.Axel
January 24, 2013
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C: Seven years ago, the "assured" status of Junk DNA was commonly used in attempts to dismiss ID and ID thinkers or supporters. ID advocates stuck to their guns and predicted that the projection of up to 98% "junk" in the genome [IIRC] would be falsified as being grossly exaggerated. Now that the evidence is moving in that direction, there is an attempt to rewrite the history to pretend that the conventional wisdom of that time was not so. Sorry, I was there and saw it live. I know better, as do a great many others. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2013
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G: at this stage it is plain that you are resorting to tangents, obfuscations and atmosphere-poisoning in a style reminiscent of some of the more zany comedies. This seems to be your response to a live demonstration of the utility of a metric of FSCO/I, and a correction on not understanding the significance of a reference to bits as a standard unit of information. That is sad. I hope that it should be plain to those interested, that intelligent causes act in our world as an empirical fact, that it often leaves empirically detectable signs -- and BTW, functionally specific organisation and information was highlighted by Wicken not the undersigned -- and that these may be measured in relevant cases of interest. Beyond that sense of design detection on empirically credible signs, I now suspect that the terms being injected and described as big/little ID, are not only alien to the understanding and usage of relevant researchers and thinkers, but appear to be at minimum rhetorically loaded and likely incoherent. I do not accept such alien terminology, and suggest that no-one else should either,on grounds similar to why other rhetorically loaded alien terms like "intelligent design creationism" are to be rejected. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2013
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Hi Timaeus @ 198
My point was (a) that many biologists, for a long time, believed that a large portion of the DNA had no function; (b) that this belief was not *simply* due to the fact that no one at the time knew of any functions ... , but was consonant with the mechanism by which evolution was believed to have taken place. If you are a neo-Darwinian, you have strong reason to believe that a significant amount of the genome will house never-used or previously-useful-but-no-longer useful sequences of DNA, which are still there because they are “neutral” as far as selection is concerned.
No, Timaeus. Your original point was that the reigning paradigm in mainstream science did not expect research into junk DNA function to be fruitful, whilst ID had predicted function, "[s]o the design perspective is a clear winner on that prediction." The documentary evidence disproves your point. Some biologists predicted function for junk DNA ever since it was discovered, they continued to research it, their research was not stymied by the reigning paradigm, and they in fact found function and published about it. So ID is not a clear winner on that prediction; if anything, mainstream science is the winner because its predictions of function came earlier:
Ever since the initial demonstration of the existence of repetitive DNA [a type of non-coding DNA] there has been no dearth of theories on the function of this material. … Following is a list of functions that have been proposed … 1. Recognition of centromeres of common origin. 2. Recognition between homologous chromosomes during pairing. 3. Regions involved in the initiation of replication and/or transcription. 4. Sites concerned with specifying the folding patterns of chromosomes. 5. Recognition sites for the process of genetic recombination. 6. Provision of raw material for genetic divergence. 7. Reflection of similarities in the structure of different proteins. 8. DNA concerned with the regulation of gene expression (regulatory DNA). 9. Reflection of multiplicity of repeated genes, as for example, in the master and slave or multistranded chromosome hypothesis. --- Bostock, C (1971) "Repetitious DNA" Advances in Cell Biology 2:153-223
You've conceded some scientists expected function for junk DNA. You've conceded the reigning paradigm in mainstream science does not logically entail junk DNA will be functionless. And we know research into functions for junk DNA has continued with mainstream institutional support for four decades, and that numerous such functions have been discovered. So it's clear that your original point that ID is a "clear winner" in the prediction about functions for junk DNA is incorrect -- which is what I've been pointing out all along. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 24, 2013
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What's the function of sin? Plus, Gregory, ID isn't about what God designed. You're conflating your version of ID with our version of ID. ID is about what can be empirically observed and what inferences can be drawn based upon our observation. Now if you can give us a way to observe and quantify SIN maybe we can tell you whether a design inference is warranted.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Since KF brought it up, the question is open: Is SIN ‘intelligently designed/Intelligently Designed’? Iow, did God ‘Intelligently Design’ SIN?
It's a nonsense question.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Gregory:
Surely by now it is obvious to everyone reading this thread that KF cannot and/or will not offer a number or probability for the three questions I asked him regarding his pseudo-science by the name of FSCO/I.
He probably didn't offer a number for the same reason they didn't include social institutions in the scope of the meeting(s) that led to the following: Functions in Biological and Artificial Worlds: Comparative Philosophical Perspectives
Entities of a third kind, namely social institutions, are often also described in a functional way. We are convinced that functional approaches to sociology may also profit from a comparative perspective when analyzing functions, but that is not included in the present comparative approach. The reasons are as follows. First, there is much less consensus among sociologists than among biologists or technicians on whether or not the systems they are dealing with should really be conceived of as functional systems. Sociological structuralism manages without function ascriptions, so the problem of functionality seems to depend much more on the general approach adopted within the sociological field than in the fields dealt with in this volume (Krohs 2008a). Second, social institutions, if conceived functionally, combine aspects that are found to be relevant to function ascriptions in biology (evolution, development, and organization) and to technology (designing, use, and, again, organization), probably blended in many different proportions. Insofar as these aspects exhaust the notion of "social functions," the latter do not add a new perspective to the ones included in this book.
In case it escaped your attention Gregory, the F in FSCO/I stands for Function.Mung
January 24, 2013
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Timaeus:
I have not read Bejan, and therefore will not comment directly on his views, but with his position *as represented by Gregory* — that design in nature does not imply a designer of nature — I sharply disagree.
But what's even more interesting is that G claims Bejan says design is empirically detectable. If I thought that were so I might be motivated to buy his book. But frankly I'm skeptical. Gregory:
Adrian Bejan is your wrestling partner here because he admits that ‘design in nature’ is ‘detectable’
How so?Mung
January 24, 2013
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Gregory:
small-id assumes a Transcendent Designer, but does not (unlike Big-ID) try to natural scientifically prove it.
Can you state a single one of Aquinas' Five Ways that does not begin with observations taken from the material world? Or were they not meant to demonstrate the existence of God? Or are you now making up a special category of science according to which "small-id does not try to natural scientifically demonstrate the existence of God" is only tautologically true?Mung
January 24, 2013
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