Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

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Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
Meyer covers all the known alternatives in his book and lists hundreds of scientific references.
Meyer debunks each of these theories but he references their works and articles about them so you can go read these researcher's own words which obviously will not be negative. Meyer concludes like most of us here that some sort of intelligence is the cause of the information necessary for life and it's changes over time. Not everything but a lot. That is why I said the issue is resolvable by examining related genomes which should provide evidence of success and failure in the origination of new alleles. If there was any sort of gradualism it must be written in both successful and unsuccessful genomic sequences. These sequences take millions of years to become fully functional and will have been in the gene pool of both the successful species and the very closely related unsuccessful species.jerry
March 14, 2014
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EricF, Meyer covers all the known alternatives in his book and lists hundreds of scientific references.jerry
March 13, 2014
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So there isn't any real alternative. I don't need more negation, I need a direction. The god argument is no better than the pink unicorn argument. Both are pretty bullshit, I get that. So there is a designer out there and we'll never know much about how this all happened? Or do we have a way of figuring out this kind of information? I'm sorry that these are direct questions. I don't doubt the theory of evolution is flawed, but all the reading I've done is all negative. Is there a site that explains more of alternative theories?EricF
March 13, 2014
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Thank you, Philip. I only glean a general sense, from discursive verbal explanations, so it's good to know there are guys who understand and can confirm the technical nitty-gritty of the science.Axel
March 13, 2014
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Querius, Johanan Raatz who wrote that piece, and who I am friends with on facebook, would be much more qualified than I to answer any specific questions, I put your question to him, he may answer it here, but perhaps it would be easier for you to ask him directly on his FB page: Johanan Raatz https://www.facebook.com/johanan.raatz.3?fref=tsbornagain77
March 13, 2014
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ba77@425 notes that
Entropy, or the amount of disorder present, always increases with time. In fact not only is this law inviolate, it is also how the flow of time is defined. Without entropy, there is no way to discern forwards and backwards in time.
Your whole post is interesting, but I'd like to speculate wildly on the above snippet in the context of quantum erasure. Can adding information to a system (by observing it and collapsing uncertainties) decrease entropy and therefore make time go backwards in a specific quantum interaction? -QQuerius
March 13, 2014
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The difficulty is that what we actually observe in nature: - Allele frequencies reflect adaptation to ecosystems, some of these are expressed quickly (the next generation) - Some alleles completely disappear from the genome as a result, increasing genetic "brittleness" - Genetic burden in some organisms such as humans is increasing with every generation (rather than holding relatively steady as might be expected) - Observed "beneficial mutations" do not increase complexity, only degrade complexity - Similar genes show up in the darndest places - Some organisms reproduce extremely quickly (bacteria)---we would expect that they should be orders of magnitude more highly evolved than other organisms - There don't seem to be enough generations in so-called higher animals to explain their diversity within the time allotted using mutation and various transcription errors, insertions, deletions, etc. - The fossil record indicates advanced structures at an extremely early point (a trilobite doesn't seem to be profoundly less competent than a tadpole shrimp Notostraca Triopsidae or even a common woodlouse) If we were to take these and other, similar observations, what would we realistically hypothesize if we could ditch Darwinism and start fresh? -QQuerius
March 13, 2014
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axel as to: "Philip, isn’t there a compelling coincidence of various forms of evidence for the Big Bang, supported by iron-clad mathematical proofs? Not evidence. Proofs." I believe you are thinking of Vilenkin's work: “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston - paper delivered at Stephen Hawking's 70th birthday party (Characterized as 'Worst Birthday Present Ever') https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/ Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning - April 2012 Excerpt: Cosmologists use the mathematical properties of eternity to show that although universe may last forever, it must have had a beginning.,,, They go on to show that cyclical universes and universes of eternal inflation both expand in this way. So they cannot be eternal in the past and must therefore have had a beginning. "Although inflation may be eternal in the future, it cannot be extended indefinitely to the past," they say. They treat the emergent model of the universe differently, showing that although it may seem stable from a classical point of view, it is unstable from a quantum mechanical point of view. "A simple emergent universe model...cannot escape quantum collapse," they say. The conclusion is inescapable. "None of these scenarios can actually be past-eternal," say Mithani and Vilenkin. Since the observational evidence is that our universe is expanding, then it must also have been born in the past. A profound conclusion (albeit the same one that lead to the idea of the big bang in the first place). http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27793/ The Universe Is Not Eternal - Johanan Raatz - March 1, 2014 Excerpt: One thing known for certain about quantum gravity is something called the holographic principle. Precisely put, the holographic principle tells us that the entropy of a region of space (measured in terms of information) is directly proportional to a quarter of its surface area. The volume of this region is then actually a hologram of this information on its surface. Except this tells us something interesting about the universe as well. Entropy, or the amount of disorder present, always increases with time. In fact not only is this law inviolate, it is also how the flow of time is defined. Without entropy, there is no way to discern forwards and backwards in time. But if the holographic principle links the universe’s entropy and its horizon area then going back in time, all of space-time eventually vanishes to nothing at zero entropy. Thus Carroll’s argument is unsound. We already have enough knowledge about what happens beyond the BVG theorem that Craig cites. The universe is not eternal but created. It is interesting to note that this also undermines claims made by atheists like Hawking and Krauss that the universe could have fluctuated into existence from nothing. Their argument rests on the assumption that there was a pre-existent zero-point field or ZPF. The only trouble is that the physics of a ZPF requires a space-time to exist in. No space-time means no zero-point field, and without a zero-point field, the universe can not spontaneously fluctuate into existence. http://blog.proofdirectory.org/2014/03/universe-not-eternal/ and yes, some Atheists have done their level, dishonest, best to try to say Vilenkin's work does not mean what he himself says it means: William Lane Craig posts full Vilenkin e-mail (that was dishonestly) misrepresented by Krauss in their debate - Sept. 23, 2013 http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/william-lane-craig-posts-full-text-of-vilenkin-e-mail-misrepresnted-by-lawrence-krauss/bornagain77
March 13, 2014
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In a nutshell, Philip, when is the bellicosely-secular, indeed, totalitarian, scientific establishment going to cease subjecting mathematical findings to case-by-case peer-reviews? No wonder God takes a dim view of them. They even manage to take the presumption to the weirdest level of high farce. Lucifer saw himself as God's peer, indeed a tad more august.Axel
March 13, 2014
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Philip, isn't there a compelling coincidence of various forms of evidence for the Big Bang, supported by iron-clad mathematical proofs? Not evidence. Proofs. I understand that the Big Bang posits a stream of photons from the primordial Singularity; photons, which, are mathematically proven to be non-local. Is it normal for scientists to omit to draw obvious conclusions of such importance? It seems to be for the atheists. In their half-baked way, the atheist-establishment contemporaries of Planck, Bohr and Einstein seemed to have accepted quantum mechanics(at least as unavoidable woo-woo), long before it had been confirmed as the definitive paradigm of the microcosm world, as it appears to us, because now mathematically proven to be unimprovable. So, how is it that they are able to make their living on the back of quantum mechanics, yet return to a world of theoretical physics that takes no account of modern science's most successful findings? As if mathematics, as the guarantor of physical truth, needed to be peer-reviewed on a case-by-case basis? Time and space were evidently created, but what did they evolve from? Matter? No. Don't laugh.... If this were a kind of West World, they'd still be loony-toons, but not quite as foolish. The third dimension surely requires the fourth. Were it possible for random chance to have any kind of causative capacity (like its miraculous cousin, Nothing, (the great 'I Am Not'), one might imagine random chance being responsible for creating a two-dimensional tableau, on a substrate, without, however, a third dimension. So, not only is abiogenesis incapable of producing life, it is a farcical concept in relationship to space-time, itself - those dimensions in which everything around us exists. Our world is not a one or two dimensional tableau.Axel
March 13, 2014
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JW777, If you are still reading this thread, there is an answer to your comment below.
I already said my piece, which is, in summary, if we take macroevolution to simply be a multiplied accrual of microevolutionary changes (which, again, we don’t understand en toto), it is by definition unrecoverable, the more distant the more unrecoverable.
A great deal of macro-evolution should be recoverable. Not everything but a great amount. If we restrict ourselves to the genome, realizing that there may be many other epigenetic processes, the information should be there. Lets take two very close species (again hard to define) and look at the genomic differences. Most of the genome should be the same but there will be some alleles that are different. Where did these alleles come from? The best answer given by those proposing a natural process is that some non-coding parts of the genome mutated into the allele. But evidence of this mutation process must also be in the related species without the allele. In other words the mutation process failed to produce a functional allele in the other species but because the two species could originally inner breed there must be remnants of the failed process in the other species. So one of the two related species has a functional protein the other doesn't. I just used one allele as a basis but in reality there must be many others. As one works their way backwards in time through whatever process seems appropriate the more successes and corresponding failures there should be. For every successful new allele there should be evidence of the failure in the related species. This process takes a long time so evidence has to be in both species. So if gradualism is true, the evidence should be in the genomes and there should be tens of thousands of examples. Till recent this was an impossible task but with current technology it could be done and when it is, the question will be answered definitively. My guess is that there will be no such proof but if gradualism is true, it must be there.jerry
March 13, 2014
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G2: I find it unsurprising that you failed to mention, molecular nanocar guy and one of the top ten cited Chemists. As in, poster boy for why Nye was wrong headed and wrong hearted. Now, personalities and ideological dismissiveness aside, can you kindly update us on the observed evidence on the merits at molecular level regarding blind watchmaker macro-evo mechanisms? KFkairosfocus
March 13, 2014
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EricF, excuse me if this seems flippant, but let's try an experiment with your statement by switching one word:
I get the doubt on 'pink unicorns'. I like the challenge of figuring out what really happened, but I haven’t seen any alternative presentation. If I am to walk away from 'pink unicorns', what are the alternative explanations?
Get the drift? In order to conclude that an idea is absurd you don't necessarily have to have an alternative explanation to conclude that the idea is absurd? A lot of times Darwinists will also object that ID 'has no mechanism'. But that objection fails now because,,,
"we see intelligent agents manipulating the information in DNA all the time." As the skeptic was a philosopher, he was apparently unaware of the burgeoning field of genetic engineering" - Responding to the Challenge that Intelligent Design Lacks a "Mechanism" Casey Luskin May 23, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/responding_to_t059941.html
Moreover, despite what Darwinists seem to believe, 'random chance' has never been shown to be a causally adequate 'mechanism' within itself:
Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness – Talbott – Fall 2011 Excerpt: In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness “To personify ‘chance’ as if we were talking about a causal agent,” notes biophysicist Donald M. MacKay, “is to make an illegitimate switch from a scientific to a quasi-religious mythological concept.” Similarly, Robert C. Sproul points out: “By calling the unknown cause ‘chance’ for so long, people begin to forget that a substitution was made. . . . The assumption that ‘chance equals an unknown cause’ has come to mean for many that ‘chance equals cause.’” Nobel laureate Jacques L. Monod, for one, used this chance-equals-cause line of reasoning. “Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, [is] at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution,” he wrote. “Man knows at last that he is alone in the universe’s unfeeling immensity, out of which he emerged only by chance.” Note he says: ‘BY chance.’ Monod does what many others do—he elevates chance to a creative principle. Chance is offered as the means by which life came to be on earth. In fact, dictionaries show that “chance” is “the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings.” Thus, if one speaks about life coming about by chance, he is saying that it came about by a causal power that is not known. per UD blogger Barbara “Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more.” Gilbert Newton Lewis – preeminent Chemist of the first half of last century “Bertalanffy (1968) called the relation between irreversible thermodynamics and information theory one of the most fundamental unsolved problems in biology.” Charles J. Smith – Biosystems, Vol.1, p259.
Here is one alternative explanation to the 'pink unicorn' theory of Darwinism that fits the evidence very well:
A. L. Hughes's New Non-Darwinian Mechanism of Adaption Was Discovered and Published in Detail by an ID Geneticist 25 Years Ago - Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig - December 2011 Excerpt: The original species had a greater genetic potential to adapt to all possible environments. In the course of time this broad capacity for adaptation has been steadily reduced in the respective habitats by the accumulation of slightly deleterious alleles (as well as total losses of genetic functions redundant for a habitat), with the exception, of course, of that part which was necessary for coping with a species' particular environment....By mutative reduction of the genetic potential, modifications became "heritable". -- As strange as it may at first sound, however, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For the characteristics were not acquired evolutionarily, but existed from the very beginning due to the greater adaptability. In many species only the genetic functions necessary for coping with the corresponding environment have been preserved from this adaptability potential. The "remainder" has been lost by mutations (accumulation of slightly disadvantageous alleles) -- in the formation of secondary species. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/a_l_hughess_new053881.html
Supplemental note: Darwinian Evolution is a Pseudo-Science - Part II https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaPcK-KCppBztIJmXUBXTvZTZ5lHV4Qg_pnzmvVL2Qw/editbornagain77
March 13, 2014
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So I haven’t had the ultimate pleasure of time that allowed me to get through every single comment, so I apologize if this has already been explained….
I get the doubt on evolution. I like the challenge of figuring out what really happened, but I haven’t seen any alternative presentation. If I am to walk away from evolution, what are the alternative explanations?
Eric, then welcome to the skeptics club. That's one step in the right direction. There are two other alternative explanations. One is Intelligent Design, but it is not very well defined in the specifics. In the ID community, there is no consensus on how the Designer was involved. It is all very sketchy and it cannot really be ascertained scientifically, but the evidence clearly points to the involvement of Intelligence. A second alternative explanation would not qualify as science. It would be the creationist explanation based on the Bible where God creates original kinds and then these original kinds branched out to form the various species within the kinds simply be a shuffling of the volumes of information originally stored in that first created pair. So you would not have common descent, but a lot of small trees. This is a common ploy of evolutionists. They claim that we only ever criticize and don't put forth our own theory. Well, if God was involved, then it cannot be a scientific theory can it? But, simply because God was involved in the creation of life doesn't mean the theory is wrong. If evolution is full of holes, then whether or not there is a new and better theory, you should still distance yourself from the theory so others will begin to work on a new and better one. So, while I understand what you are saying, it won't help evolutionists here with their sinking theory.
tjguy
March 13, 2014
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Had a quick squiz at Tours website ... hes a creationist! Why is it so predictable ?.Graham2
March 12, 2014
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So I haven't had the ultimate pleasure of time that allowed me to get through every single comment, so I apologize if this has already been explained.... I get the doubt on evolution. I like the challenge of figuring out what really happened, but I haven't seen any alternative presentation. If I am to walk away from evolution, what are the alternative explanations? What is the corresponding evidence for these theories? Most of what I have seen is skepticism, but I haven't seen alternative proofs. Is there a good place to start?EricF
March 12, 2014
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The problems with the Darwin they trying to go against the very creator Himself,and that is God who is the creator of heavens and earth, which He told us that He is the creator of mankind Genesis 1v1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. now when they looking at this beautiful Earth and heavens which we have here and the Earth is the only planet design to sustain life, and for something like that to just created it demand a creator for it to be design it demand a designer, you cannot built a building without an architect , is the same way you cannot start to explain human being without the great God of heavens,The bible say there is one lawgiver and that is God James 4:12 and because they are trying to push God out of the things which clearly seen by all of them and this God creation ,heavens and Earth and He give their minds to this Romans 1:17-32 For in this the righteousness of God is revealed in from faith to faith:as is it written the just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.Because what they maybe known of God is manifested in them,for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made,even His eternal power and Godhead , so that they are without excuse.Because, although they knew God , they did not glorify Him as God,nor were thankful,but become futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.Professing to be wise,they became fools.And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man and bird and four footed animals and creeping things.Therefore God gave them up to uncleanness,in the lusts of their hearts.to dishonor their bodies among themselves,who exchanged the truth for the lies,and worshiped and serves the creature rather then the creator,who is blessed forever.Amen.For this reason God gave them up to vile passions.For even their woman exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.Likewise men leaving the natural use of woman burned in their lust for one another men with men committing what is shameful, are receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge ,God gave them up to a debased mind , to do those things which are not fitting.being filled with all unrighteousness,sexual immorality,wickedness,covetousness,maliciousness:full of envy,murder,strife,deceit,evil-mindedness,they are whisperers,backbiters,haters of God,violent,proud,boaters,inventors of evil things,disobedient to parents,undiscerning ,untrustworthy ,unloving,unforgiving,unmerciful,,who,Knowing the righteousness judgement of God,that those practice such things of death, not only those who do the same but also approve of those who practice them.....my friends this is why Darwin is so far from the truth and thats why they cannot answer the question.wysly2002
March 12, 2014
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KF @410, yes that is the argument. I also noticed you mentioning the heat thrown your way, that much surface to air fire generally means you're above the target.junkdnathewhite
March 11, 2014
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In all reality, given starting populations of prokaryotes, blind and unguided physical processes cannot get beyond variations of those. And it definitely cannot get to eukaryotes from there. Sad, but true...Joe
March 11, 2014
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Jerry Coyne once wrote:
When, after a Christmas visit, we watch grandma leave on the train to Miami, we assume that the rest of her journey will be an extrapolation of that first quarter-mile. A creationist unwilling to extrapolate from micro- to macroevolution is as irrational as an observer who assumes that, after grandma's train disappears around the bend, it is seized by divine forces and instantly transported to Florida. (Nature 412:587, 19 August 2001.)
As rational people we know what normal train transportation is capable of, or if additional engineering would be necessary as with the Chunnel if Grandma went from France to the UK. But for the train analogy to actually work, knowing what is necessary for macroevolution, we would need to extrapolate that a train could take Grandma from Miami to Mars. This is what is irrational. Beyond this we would also need to be prepared to say goodbye to Grandma forever. Macroevolution is a one way trip, microevolution is not...Heartlander
March 11, 2014
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F/N: Let us remember the nigh on 1 1/2 year old challenge on the table, which was last put up at 403 above. Observe, too, the absence above of proponents of evolutionary materialism on the material issue once Wiki and TO have been brought to bear and addressed on the micro/macro evo distinction; and notice how, previously there was a false cry of censorship which seems to have vanished here once the significance of the offer of parallel posting was put on the table -- at minimum, I think there are UD contributors with posting privileges at TSZ. Let us just note that heckling is not protected speech, and that ugly attacks against persons or threats to out uninvolved family including attempted revealing of addresses of minor children are beyond bounds of civility (but that is what I have had to try to deal with). Bottomline, the fundamental (and still not cogently answered) challenge to evolutionary materialism advocates . . . and, remember, we will freely host including in parallel with other sites . . . is to provide a cogent answer to the now almost 1 1/2 year old (it will reach that at the vernal equinox later this month) pro-darwinism, tree of life essay challenge:
provide a 6,000 word feature-length article that justifies the Darwinist tree of life from its OOL roots up through the Cambrian revo — as in Darwin’s Doubt territory — and other major formation of body plans up to and including our own origins, and we will host it here at UD, one of the leading ID blogs in the world. We are perfectly willing to host a parallel post with another site. Only, you must provide thesis and observation based evidence that solidly justifies your conclusions in light of inference to best explanation, the vera causa principle and other basic principles of sound scientific induction. Also, you must actually argue the case in outline, a summing up if you will. You must strive to avoid Lewontin’s a priori evolutionary materialism, and if you would redefine science on such terms you will have to reasonably justify why that is not a question-begging definition, in a way that is historically and philosophically soundly informed. Of course, you may link sources elsewhere, but you must engage the task of providing a coherent, non-question-begging, cogent argument in summary at the level of a feature-length serious magazine article . . . no literature bluffs in short.
Let us see if there will be someone willing to step up tot he plate, or whether we will see ever more of evasions, twist-about attack rhetoric and the like. This, in a context where the principle of the dog that didn’t bark and then charge and bite is highly relevant to Dr Tour’s point. Recall, his core thesis is:
… I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules . . . . I don’t understand evolution [i.e. as a molecular level process], and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution . . . . Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.
Where, using the synthesis on micro/macro evo above, we may focus the issue in a way that brings out the force of the explanatory gap Dr Tour . . . the nanocar man, and one of the ten most cited chemists in the world . . . is highlighting:
Microevolution: a term used to describe genetic variation, the empirically observed phenomenon in which existing potential variations within the gene pool of a population of organisms and/or those formed through mutations shift the proportions of varieties among members of that population over a relatively short series of generations, or even within a single generation. Macroevolution: the theory/inference that: 1 –> biological population changes take (and have taken) place (typically via cumulative mutations and culling by differential reproductive success — aka natural selection — held to be leading to Darwin’s “descent with modification”) across deep time; 2 –> on a large enough scale to produce entirely new structural features and organs, resulting in entirely new species, genera, families, orders, classes, and phyla within the biological world, 3 –> by incrementally and cumulatively generating the requisite (new) complex genetic information manifested in a branching tree of life pattern inferred from the fossil record, and held to be reflected in homologies at gross anatomy and gene/molecular levels.
Now, how can it be shown, empirically today, that micro [which is commonly observed as a loss of info/breakdown of function that in particular stressed environments (think blind/sighted forms of essentially the same cave fish) confers a local advantage and shifts population] can and does accumulate into macro . . . the vera causa test? Where, for Dr Tour, this specifically involves the challenge of co-ordinated molecular synthesis and self-assembly of novel structures for new body plan structures and where this goes back also to the first body plan, the suggested first cell based life. Where, absent vera causa, there is a serious inductive reasoning challenge to resorting to mechanisms not shown here and now to cause a type of effect, in proposing a best explanation candidate for events in the deep unobserved past of origins. Where also, we have abundant cases in point that the only observed and needle in haystack blind search plausible cause of FSCO/I . . . functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information (think, the text elements that make up this post or the components of the PC you are reading this on) . . . is intelligent design. So, evo mat advocates, what is your case in a nutshell, and what are its factual (observed!) and inductive logic grounds that pass the vera causa test in light of the molecular chemical challenges and information and organisation challenges involved? KFkairosfocus
March 11, 2014
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117,426kairosfocus
March 11, 2014
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JD: As in as summarised by BA clipping UB, here? (BTW, one of the top ten) KFkairosfocus
March 10, 2014
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KF @ 395, I would say UB's semiotic should be on whatever list you propose.junkdnathewhite
March 9, 2014
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I was certain that people still believed the common ancestry. But I am legitimately asking what the current evo-apologetics squaring is. I can't find any books or publications from the top evo-apologists that square these evidentiary refutations. I just don't have the imagination to think up a tale of how to square them. What is the tale?jw777
March 9, 2014
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jw777 noted
And, if that is no longer a strong case, should anyone bother searching the macroevolutionary mechanism (cause or conclusion) for a common ancestry which likely doesn’t exist?
In a word, it provides hope. An in-place, mechanistic explanation for life has just gotta be available. The alternative is horrifying and unthinkable! ;-) -QQuerius
March 9, 2014
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Macroevolution is somehow intertwined with the belief in common ancestry, either as cause or conclusion (I can never seem to tell which articles of evolutionary faith are presuppositions and which are conclusions, since they are usually offered as both). Pointedly, what I am wondering is if our analysis of Tour's claim should land squarely on macroevolution, given that common ancestry is no longer tenable. What is the contemporary evo-apologetics argument to square our current understanding of organismal makeup and epigenetics concerning common ancestry? Specifically, given that, though we are 1 trillion cells, we are 100 trillion bacteria, and among our 1% makeup (the cells) not all of the form and function is dictated by DNA, thus the alleged 98% genetic similarity (which was already in question) with chimps actually amounts to 98% of ???% (the non-epigenetic share) of 1% = .03-.7% biological similarity. Between gene sequencing and paleontology, there are numerous "upside down" ancestral trees anyway. Why should anyone accept the common descent hypothesis anymore? It seems like an archaic artifact of a bygone era. And, if that is no longer a strong case, should anyone bother searching the macroevolutionary mechanism (cause or conclusion) for a common ancestry which likely doesn't exist?jw777
March 9, 2014
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JG: Forgive if my comment was not helpful. KFkairosfocus
March 9, 2014
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KF @ 396 I'm not sure why you responded to my comment (two above yours) with that. Note that my comment contains two nested quotes, and it was a response to Mung responding to Sal.JGuy
March 9, 2014
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PPS: Let us remember the nigh on 1 1/2 year old challenge on the table:
provide a 6,000 word feature-length article that justifies the Darwinist tree of life from its OOL roots up through the Cambrian revo — as in Darwin’s Doubt territory — and other major formation of body plans up to and including our own origins, and we will host it here at UD, one of the leading ID blogs in the world. We are perfectly willing to host a parallel post with another site. Only, you must provide thesis and observation based evidence that solidly justifies your conclusions in light of inference to best explanation, the vera causa principle and other basic principles of sound scientific induction. Also, you must actually argue the case in outline, a summing up if you will. You must strive to avoid Lewontin’s a priori evolutionary materialism, and if you would redefine science on such terms you will have to reasonably justify why that is not a question-begging definition, in a way that is historically and philosophically soundly informed. Of course, you may link sources elsewhere, but you must engage the task of providing a coherent, non-question-begging, cogent argument in summary at the level of a feature-length serious magazine article . . . no literature bluffs in short.
Let us see if there will be someone willing to step up tot he plate, or whether we will see ever more of evasions, twist-about attack rhetoric and the like. This, in a context where the principle of the dog that didn't bark and then charge and bite is highly relevant to Dr Tour's point.kairosfocus
March 9, 2014
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