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About intelligence and ID – a response to scordova

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My post intends to be a response to a previous UD article by scordova. Scordova, who asks “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” and answers “I think so”, is aware to have put on the table a critical topic because himself writes:

I know many of my ID colleagues will disagree or will remain skeptical of adopting such a convention.

I am one of his ID colleagues who disagrees and I will explain why.

Scordova wrote:

So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing).

This is an extremely reductive way to consider intelligence. Why consider only the construction of artifacts? Are people not constructing artifacts all stupid? There are countless evidences of higher activities by human intelligence. For example: the elaboration of logic, languages, mathematics, philosophy, sciences… To reduce intelligence only to its practical uses is pragmatism/materialism of the worse kind. A movement that names itself “intelligent design movement” cannot have a conception of intelligence so low.

Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems. The problem is that we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence in any formal way.

“Factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms” are not “intelligent systems” because what they produce is entirely due to the intelligence of their human designers. It is not the artificial system to be “intelligent”, rather its designer.

With no disrespect intended toward those with severe mental handicaps, yes such people are conscious, but there is a point a robotic automaton might be capable of generating more Specified Improbability than such an individual.

Conscious persons with mental handicaps, also if unable to produce “Specified Improbability”, are far more than robots because consciousness is always ontologically superior to any machine.

Some of us have imagined building robots that will land on a planet and tame it and build cities. They will act pretty much like human engineers and construction workers… Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred.

Again, robots build cities because they are programmed to do so by human engineers. In this case, the “line between real and artificial intelligence” is the clear hierarchical demarcation between “who programs and what is programmed”. “Who” are the human robotics engineers, “what” are the robots.

From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability.

On the contrary, I think that ID should carefully distinguish between real vs. artificial intelligence. (A general exhortation of Scholasticism was “distingue frequenter” in all fields.) One of the goals of ID theory is indeed to show that chance and necessity cannot produce information. Machines belong to “chance and necessity” because they are “necessitated” by their designer, so to speak. Therefore an IDer who denies the above ID proof self-contradicts.

We can even assume the process of natural selection is AI (where Natural Selection is an AI genetic algorithm in the wild), given it’s level of intelligence, we do not expect it to build extravagant artifacts.

To consider natural selection an “AI genetic algorithm” is to attribute it a merit that it doesn’t deserve. Not only natural selection is unable to build “extravagant artifacts”, it is unable to build the least artifact.

We can say an adding machine is intelligent, but we do not think, in and of itself it will build a space shuttle.

Actually I have on my desk an old mechanical adding machine. If you call it “intelligent” then why don’t call “intelligent” the reading lamp or the paperknife?

We rate the capability of various intelligence systems, and it is reasonable to affix limitations on them.

True, but here you contradict what you said before “we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence”. In fact, if we can rate various intelligences, we can see they form a hierarchy where at the top there is the real intelligence and at the bottom the artificial “intelligence”.

Whether the Intelligence that made the wonders of life is God, A Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence…it is irrelevant to the design inference. We might however be able to make statements about the level of capability of that intelligence.

Here again I see an inconsistence. I agree that we are able to grasp the level of capability of intelligence. But then, before a design inference on the universe as a whole, we cannot suppose that it was designed by “a Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence”. See here.

To sum up, to scordova’s question “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” my answer is: “no, we cannot consider an artificial system really intelligent”. Here I explained that real intelligence is direct connection to what I called “Infinite Information Source” (God). Here I explained that without such direct connection no comprehensibility of the world, also at the least degree, is possible. Here I explained that artificial systems (also those more sophisticated considered by AI) can show only false intelligence.

The direct connection to the Infinite Information Source (IIS) is the reason why the potentiality of knowledge of the real intelligence is infinite, as its source. No machine has this direct connection. As such the potentiality of real direct knowledge of a machine is zero. From the point of view of potentiality, the difference between real intelligence and its caricature – artificial “intelligence” – is like the difference between infinite and zero.

To deny the IIS and its connection to man is to consider man as an isolated finite system, whose potentialities are necessarily limited, due only to the configuration of its parts. This way real intelligence with its infinite potentiality of knowledge remains entirely unexplained. Said in theological terms: if man is not image of God, then man couldn’t have the potentiality of understanding he effectively has. If this simplistic materialist conception is supported by evolutionists/materialists no wonder. If it is supported by an IDer/creationist I am a bit bemused.

Comments
You are afraid to defend such argument simply because you know that evolutionism & co. rules the world and can easily ruin your career,
That's an inappropriate accusation, especially since I'm not in academia, but in finance. It also accuses me of cowardice, and that is inappropriate in civil discourse. You are saying things now that you have no proof of regarding my motivations. By the way, Robert Marks invited me to work with him at Baylor, and then the evolutionists there shut down the lab a week before the school year began. They ruined the potential for my advancement through Baylor, but that was moot since I went to Johns Hopkins. As a matter of public record, the evolutionists plotted to get me thrown out of Johns Hopkins, but that didn't stop me from arguing publicly with them. The fact that the evolutionists have caused trouble for me hasn't stopped me from criticizing them. You have no evidence that my current line of argument is based on worries about them liking me and helping me along in academia or in my present line of work in private finance. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Now that you're slinging these sort of accusations about my person, I so no reason to continue in this thread.scordova
November 21, 2013
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scordova:
The real question is whether human intelligence is like an automaton.
I would not say that human intelligence is like an automaton. There is no question in my mind that human intelligence, or any other kind of intelligence for that matter, is an automaton, period. Let me explain. Learning in the human brain is completely automated. Even something as essential as the discovery and recognition of analogies and metaphors happens automatically. Motor behavior, too, is automatic. The motor cortex is a magnificently tuned machine that orchestrates the precise timing of the activation/relaxation of a myriad muscles. Automatically. The brain is a wonderful mechanism, a masterpiece of engineering and wisdom, the work of powerful Gods. What makes humans different than robots is not the nature of their intelligence but the fact that, unlike the robot with its fixed pre-programmed motivations, the human brain is controlled by another entity. This entity essentially sits there and watches the brain go about its business automatically. Most of the time, that is all it does. But, every so often, it takes over and changes the brain's focus or attention. It may even initiate a behavioral sequence. But it does not do the brain's job for it. It is just the director, the captain of the ship, so to speak. But the ship is still an automaton.Mapou
November 21, 2013
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I think it rather obvious that when ID theorists use the word "intelligence", what they mean is not simply the colloquial meaning, but rather something which reduces to free will.tragic mishap
November 21, 2013
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scordova, you appear to have rejected free will as an axiom upon which to reason. Why? What are the axioms you use instead?tragic mishap
November 21, 2013
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scordova
If sperm and ovum eggs implement approximate-Turing machines, then one can argue a Turing machine made a conscious human intelligence. I don’t buy that argument, but neither can I formally refute it.
As I said in #68, human intelligence is more/higher than a TM. If human intelligence were the output of a TM, we would have that a TM produces something more/higher than a TM. This is absurd, like 2+2=5. You are afraid to defend such argument simply because you know that evolutionism & co. rules the world and can easily ruin your career, and for it, no problem, 0 + 0 = infinite.niwrad
November 21, 2013
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Mapou, Intelligence is intelligence, free will is free will and consciousness is consciousness. Either you have them or you don’t. Robots will have the first of the three but not the other two.
I'm obviously sympathetic to that viewpoint. Why? Very difficult to actually describe what consciousness actually is.
Niwrad, Human intelligence has shown to be able to resolve a large range of problems. What’s more, human intelligence invented the Turing machines themselves, while no Turing machine invented human intelligence.
I agree with you, but I feel discomfort in asserting that unequivocally. That is I think you are right, privately, but I can't formally defend it. Why? If sperm and ovum eggs implement approximate-Turing machines, then one can argue a Turing machine made a conscious human intelligence. I don't buy that argument, but neither can I formally refute it. What you say, I agree with as a matter of faith, but actually demonstrating it formally might be beyond our reach. What I don't feel comfortable with, I don't use as a basis for defending ID. I defend ID with: 1. irreducible complexity 2. criticism of OOL 3. population genetics 4. refuting rhetorical tricks in evolutionary literature I don't emphasize the importance of conscious intelligence in creating CSI since, imho, CSI can be made by non-conscious automatons. Furthermore, CSI does not have a stable definition among ID proponents. We can't even agree how much CSI is in 2000 coins, much less more challenging questions.scordova
November 21, 2013
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scordova
To me, AI is a valid representation of some aspects of human intelligence. Chess playing is a good example.
Yes, you say correctly "some aspects", those more mechanistic, the lowest ones. Other higher aspects of human intelligence are not affordable by AI. Example: to prove mathematical theorems is an activity more difficult than chess playing, not mechanizable in principle by robots (as Godel proved).niwrad
November 21, 2013
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I do not think human intelligence is like an automaton, partly because : 1. it is not completely deterministic 2. it actually makes many computational errors 3. consciousness does not seem resolvable to computation
What examples of computational errors come to mind? Acceptance of Darwinism. That is a serious malfunction of the thinking process.scordova
November 21, 2013
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The real question is whether human intelligence is like an automaton.
And to extend the thought, if human intelligence is like an automaton, it too is subject to NFL limitations. I do not think human intelligence is like an automaton, partly because : 1. it is not completely deterministic 2. it actually makes many computational errors 3. consciousness does not seem resolvable to computation But we cannot say that human intelligence is completely unlike an automaton either. AI captures the automaton features of the human intelligence, it tries to throw out the miscalculating features of human intelligence, but it cannot duplicate consciousness as that seems to transcend computation. To me, AI is a valid representation of some aspects of human intelligence. Chess playing is a good example.scordova
November 21, 2013
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scordova
The real question is whether human intelligence is like an automaton.
Automata (Turing machines) are numerable/countable. Differently, problems and their solutions are not countable (they have a cardinality/potency higher than the integer number set). Human intelligence has shown to be able to resolve a large range of problems. What's more, human intelligence invented the Turing machines themselves, while no Turing machine invented human intelligence. This asymmetry is sign of the ontological superiority of human intelligence compared to any automaton. It is the hierarchical demarcation between "who makes and what is made" I already stressed in the OP. This means that the answer to your question is: "human intelligence is more than an automaton". Obviously this agrees with my metaphysical/theological argument about the infinite information source and its direct connection to man. It couldn't be otherwise.niwrad
November 21, 2013
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Andre:
Mapou So no conscience, no free will and no consciousnesses. That means they have no intelligence only a program that mimics intelligence….
Not true. Intelligence is intelligence, free will is free will and consciousness is consciousness. Either you have them or you don't. Robots will have the first of the three but not the other two.Mapou
November 21, 2013
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Mr. Cordova claims:
it is a matter of faith that humans have free will
And yet,
Free Will In the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices determine past material states: Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic) how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past?,,,
It is a strange 'matter of faith' that can be bore out empirically like that!bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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Thanks niwrad, although I don't know how much credit I personally can take, since referencing the Turing-Godel video came to me in a moment of 'intuition'. :) But as you say it always boils down to the same point, "There must be an infinite information source, First Cause of all." A few notes on human intuition: This ability to 'instantaneously' know answers to complex problems, that would take supercompers days to calculate has long been a very intriguing characteristic of some autistic savants;
Is Integer Arithmetic Fundamental to Mental Processing?: The mind's secret arithmetic Excerpt: Because normal children struggle to learn multiplication and division, it is surprising that some savants perform integer arithmetic calculations mentally at "lightning" speeds (Treffert 1989, Myers 1903, Hill 1978, Smith 1983, Sacks 1985, Hermelin and O'Connor 1990, Welling 1994, Sullivan 1992). They do so unconsciously, without any apparent training, typically without being able to report on their methods, and often at an age when the normal child is struggling with elementary arithmetic concepts (O'Connor 1989). Examples include multiplying, factoring, dividing and identifying primes of six (and more) digits in a matter of seconds as well as specifying the number of objects (more than one hundred) at a glance. For example, one savant (Hill 1978) could give the cube root of a six figure number in 5 seconds and he could double 8,388,628 twenty four times to obtain 140,737,488,355,328 in several seconds. Joseph (Sullivan 1992), the inspiration for the film "Rain Man" about an autistic savant, could spontaneously answer "what number times what number gives 1234567890" by stating "9 times 137,174,210". Sacks (1985) observed autistic twins who could exchange prime numbers in excess of eight figures, possibly even 20 figures, and who could "see" the number of many objects at a glance. When a box of 111 matches fell to the floor the twins cried out 111 and 37, 37, 37. http://www.centreforthemind.com/publications/integerarithmetic.cfm
At the 11:50 minute mark of this following video, Magnus Carlsen, who is very shortly poised to become the next world Chess champion with his 3rd victory over Vishy Anand today, explains that he does not know how he knows his next move of Chess 'instantaneously', that ‘it just comes natural’ to him to know the answer to the chess problem instantaneously.
Mozart of Chess: Magnus Carlsen – video http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7399370n&tag=contentMain;contentAux A chess prodigy explains how his mind works – video Excerpt: "What’s the secret to Magnus’ magic? Once an opponent makes a move, Magnus instantaneously knows his own next move." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57380913-10391709/a-chess-prodigy-explains-how-his-mind-works/?tag=segementExtraScroller;housing
Nicola Tesla had a 'vision' of the AC electric motor:
Electrical genius Nicola Tesla was born in Serbia in 1856,,, (his father and farther in law were both clergyman). Excerpt: While walking in Budapest Park, Hungary, Nikola Tesla had seen a vision of a functioning alternating current (AC) electric induction motor. This was one of the most revolutionary inventions in the entire history of the world. http://www.reformation.org/nikola-tesla.html
Moreover, The following video is very suggestive to a 'spiritual' link in man's ability to learn new information in that the video shows that almost every, if not every, founder of each discipline of modern science was a devout Christian:
Christianity Gave Birth To Science - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153
And there is a mysterious correlation between technological progress and Christianity even to this day
Bruce Charlton's Miscellany - October 2011 Excerpt: I had discovered that over the same period of the twentieth century that the US had risen to scientific eminence it had undergone a significant Christian revival. ,,,The point I put to (Richard) Dawkins was that the USA was simultaneously by-far the most dominant scientific nation in the world (I knew this from various scientometic studies I was doing at the time) and by-far the most religious (Christian) nation in the world. How, I asked, could this be - if Christianity was culturally inimical to science? http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/10/meeting-richard-dawkins-and-his-wife.html
A very strong piece of suggestive evidence, which persuasively hints at a unique relationship that man has with 'The Word' of John 1:1, is found in these following articles which point out the fact that ‘coincidental scientific discoveries’ are far more prevalent than would be expected from a 'random' materialistic perspective,:
List of multiple discoveries Excerpt: Historians and sociologists have remarked on the occurrence, in science, of "multiple independent discovery". Robert K. Merton defined such "multiples" as instances in which similar discoveries are made by scientists working independently of each other.,,, Multiple independent discovery, however, is not limited to only a few historic instances involving giants of scientific research. Merton believed that it is multiple discoveries, rather than unique ones, that represent the common pattern in science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_discoveries
Of course all this is just interesting trivia, 'icing on the cake', to supplement the fact of 'conservation of information' that has been solidified/established by Godel, Turing, Chaitin, Marks and Dembski. i.e.
"There must be an infinite information source, First Cause of all."
Verses and Music:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. Steven Curtis Chapman - Lord of the Dance (Live) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDXbvMcMbU0
bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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Machines make CSI. They can make CSI we have never seen before.
Yes. As BA noted, that’s the entire point of the Law of Conservation of Information. No program can create CSI that is not somewhere in its original program, that is, coming from its programmer.
I do not like the way the Conservation of Information theorem is stated. The current discussion poses a paradoxes for that theorem: https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/the-paradox-in-calculating-csi-numbers-for-2000-coins/ The better way of phrasing it is that an AI system ultimately has limitation in what it can do because AI systems are ultimately constraint propagation systems. These constraints cannot be violated unless the machine is reprogrammed or is broken. That is the better way of framing the problem. For example a chess system might be able to create databases on the fly of its opponent. It will thus "learn" and apply information over time. However, unless it is reprogrammed to do more than chess it will never build space shuttles. That's the better way to frame the conservation of information theorem. Accepting we have free will, emotion, etc. is formally beyond questions of improbability and computation. That is conflating theological ideas with what we can actually say about the evolution of information processing systems. The real question is not whether AI systems are limted in terms of what they can self-evolve into (they cannot evolve past the constraints they were designed with, even though the human designers might not actually know what those limits are since human designers can barely remember what computer code they wrote a few days ago). The real question is whether human intelligence is like an automaton. That cannot be proven one way or another, it is a matter of faith that humans have free will and moral responsibility. Calvinists have posed an interesting problem: how can the be predestination and free will? They accept both. But those questions are beyond the current discussion. Can machines make novel CSI? Yes, depending on how you define CSI. Can a machine reprogram itself? Only to certain limits. With respect to natural selection, the limits are empirically observable and can be reasonably inferred unless one is a Darwinist who relies on imagination and cherry picks data that indicates real evolution is downward. I'm limiting my arguments here because this is niwrad's discussion, and I want to give his ideas priority.scordova
November 21, 2013
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Bornagain77 By the way, thank you for your indefatigable and priceless support, never missing in my posts. Obviously Godel's "divine spark of intuition" you cite has a lot to do with what I called "light beam" connecting every man to the Light Source of all knowledge. (Light is always a symbol of knowledge, in the traditional doctrines.) Godel was a Platonist (as most mathematicians), and as such, believed in the realm of eternal Ideas (which is the same thing as the theological Divine Intellect). Another great Platonist mathematician was Paul Erdos, who believed in an "eternal book" containing all mathematics... It is always the same concept, expressed in different ways. There must be an infinite information source, First Cause of all.niwrad
November 21, 2013
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OOPS,, nevermind,,,bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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correction: "transcend the limits he, and Godel,"bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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It is interesting to note in the preceding video that although Alan Turing believed humans were merely machines, much like the computers he had envisioned, he failed to realize that his entire idea for computers came to him suddenly, 'in a vision', thus confirming Godel's contention that humans had access to the 'divine spark of intuition'. A divine spark which enables humans to transcend the limits he, and Turing, had found in his incompleteness theorem for computers, mathematics, and even for all of material reality generally: etc.. etc...bornagain77
November 21, 2013
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Alan Turing & Kurt Godel – Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition – video (with Gregory Chaitin) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8516356 Quote from video: Turing recast incompleteness in terms of computers and showed that since they are logic machines, there would always be some problems they would never solve. A machine fed one of these problems would never stop (halting problem). And worse, Turing proved there was no way of telling beforehand which these problems were." Gödel's philosophical challenge (to Turing) - Wilfried Sieg - lecture video ("The human mind infinitely surpasses any finite machine.") http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je9ksvZ9Av4 "Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine" ~ Godelbornagain77
November 21, 2013
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Mapou Your negation (and even your depreciation!) of the Divine Intellect, containing all possibilities, and which is the Total Truth (of course including the logical truth you appreciate) explains why unfortunately you are actually unable to grasp the difference between real and false intelligence. I am very sorry, but if you deny this Principle (in other terms you are an atheist), I can do next-to-nothing to help you understand. You rightly wrote yesterday: "I fully agree that consciousness is not an “emergent property” of matter". Then, where do you think consciousness comes from, but from that Principle?niwrad
November 21, 2013
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Mapou So no conscience, no free will and no consciousnesses. That means they have no intelligence only a program that mimics intelligence....Andre
November 21, 2013
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Andre:
So you built a robot with AI…. then you tell it it is free and may do whatever it likes….. What does Robots like?
Andre, I will be the first to tell you that robots will never have free will. They will never rebel against their masters as the clueless materialists, atheists and Singularitarians believe. That is pure superstitious, brain-dead hogwash. Machines will always act according to the motivations and Pavlovian conditioning we give them and that's it. However, they will do it very intelligently, very human-like, so much so that their behavior will evoke in us what some are calling the uncanny valley. Still, reward and punishment is what will motivate them, just like animals. They will not "like" anything and they will not see beauty in anything. They will never be conscious even though many humans will swear that they are conscious. Yes, they will be frustrated if unable to achieve their goals and they will act emotionally but it will not be a conscious emotion. It will just be the artificial neurons firing.Mapou
November 21, 2013
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niwrad, I'm sorry, I'm a logical thinker and metaphysics is not my cup of tea. Infinite divine intellect? This is nonsense, man. Infinity is BS. God regretted that he created man on earth. If he had infinite knowledge about everything, he could not possibly have any regrets. Infinity is illogical metaphysical nonsense, IMO. But as far as understanding the meaning of things is concerned, it's not the big incomprehensible metaphysical miracle you are making it out to be. It's all about causes and effects. And causes and effects are about timing. The brain is just a timing supercomputer. It memorizes the timing of sensory events and creates an internal model of how they change. This malleable temporal model is where meaning resides.Mapou
November 21, 2013
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Will AI ever have emotion? Will it understand anger sadness? I'm not talking about what it perceives of others but itself?Andre
November 21, 2013
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So you built a robot with AI.... then you tell it it is free and may do whatever it likes..... What does Robots like?Andre
November 21, 2013
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Mapou Real intelligence is not simply to create CSI (this was my first critic to scordova). Real intelligence is to grasp meanings. It is to do a thing and in the same time to understand/know/comprehend what is the meaning of the thing, the meaning of to do the thing and the meaning of being the agent. This is possible because real intelligence is directly connected to the Infinite Information Source. In my previous cited post "comprehensibility of the world": https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/comprehensibility-of-the-world/ I even provided a schema of this connection. Please refer to it. It is the IIS that contains the meanings. The meanings are not in the world, not in the environment. The meanings are in the infinite Divine Intellect (=IIS). Humans have real intelligence because are reflections of the Divine Intellect. Analogy: if the Divine Intellect is the Light Source, any man is a light beam. I agree with you that future robots will mimic men better than now. But they will never grasp the meanings of their actions/imitations. Because machines are not reflections of the Divine Intellect. For the sake of argument, I even go in AI further than you, mind you. Soon robots will be able to talk and even to post comments in a forum. But they will do that without understand/know/comprehend the meaning of their own output character strings and let alone the meaning of the human comments. In two words, real intelligence implies thought/action with meaning. The false/artificial intelligence of robots is action without meaning.niwrad
November 21, 2013
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tragic mishap:
Yes. As BA noted, that’s the entire point of the Law of Conservation of Information. No program can create CSI that is not somewhere in its original program, that is, coming from its programmer.
What I wanted to say is that machines will be able to construct objects with CSI in them. Do you disagree with that? Are you also saying that no program can learn things from its environment that was not programmed into it? Such programs already exist.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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bornagain77:
no computer program can create information over and above what is programmed, and feed, into it, by an original conscious intelligent being.
Actually, I disagree with this. There are machines now that can learn things from their environment, things that their programmers have never programmed into them. But hey, this is also true of us humans to a great extent. Almost everything we know comes from learning. Creativity is hard. In the not too distant future, there will be machines that will start their "lives" like babies and learn just like babies. They will learn to walk, speak, read and write just like humans. They will understand what's going on around them as well as and more than likely, even better than you and I. They will do everything you and I can do. It will be the end of work as we know it. But guess what? These machines will not be invented by a bunch of superstitious, materialist academics who believe they can gain immortality by uploading their brains to a machine (how dumb is that?). No sirree. They will come from the one place that you and they least expect. The secret of how to design intelligent machines is staring everybody in the face as I write but you are all too blind to see it. It gets even better. They will not require any fancy math either, just a bunch of simple artificial neurons arranged in various network configurations.
To claim otherwise, as you have admitted mistakenly done, without reference to mathematical peer review, is to ignore what has been established by much hard work by Dembski and Marks, as well as numerous others before them as well as alongside them
Look, the NFL theorem has been around for years. But this is not what bothers you. What bothers you is the idea that there can be a machine as intelligent as you. That would go against everything you believe in. That's too bad.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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Are you and Dr. Dembski claiming that an intelligent robot cannot create CSI? If you are, I disagree.
Yes. As BA noted, that's the entire point of the Law of Conservation of Information. No program can create CSI that is not somewhere in its original program, that is, coming from its programmer.tragic mishap
November 20, 2013
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Andre:
The problem with AI as actual intelligence is aptly demonstrated in the movie 5th Element when Gary Old man chokes on a cherry and none of the intelligent machines knew what to do, but a human would…..
LOL. I remember that scene. Gary Oldman was great as the bad guy. It was a very unrealistic movie, though. The writers and directors understood very little about AI.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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