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About intelligence and ID – a response to scordova

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My post intends to be a response to a previous UD article by scordova. Scordova, who asks “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” and answers “I think so”, is aware to have put on the table a critical topic because himself writes:

I know many of my ID colleagues will disagree or will remain skeptical of adopting such a convention.

I am one of his ID colleagues who disagrees and I will explain why.

Scordova wrote:

So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing).

This is an extremely reductive way to consider intelligence. Why consider only the construction of artifacts? Are people not constructing artifacts all stupid? There are countless evidences of higher activities by human intelligence. For example: the elaboration of logic, languages, mathematics, philosophy, sciences… To reduce intelligence only to its practical uses is pragmatism/materialism of the worse kind. A movement that names itself “intelligent design movement” cannot have a conception of intelligence so low.

Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems. The problem is that we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence in any formal way.

“Factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms” are not “intelligent systems” because what they produce is entirely due to the intelligence of their human designers. It is not the artificial system to be “intelligent”, rather its designer.

With no disrespect intended toward those with severe mental handicaps, yes such people are conscious, but there is a point a robotic automaton might be capable of generating more Specified Improbability than such an individual.

Conscious persons with mental handicaps, also if unable to produce “Specified Improbability”, are far more than robots because consciousness is always ontologically superior to any machine.

Some of us have imagined building robots that will land on a planet and tame it and build cities. They will act pretty much like human engineers and construction workers… Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred.

Again, robots build cities because they are programmed to do so by human engineers. In this case, the “line between real and artificial intelligence” is the clear hierarchical demarcation between “who programs and what is programmed”. “Who” are the human robotics engineers, “what” are the robots.

From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability.

On the contrary, I think that ID should carefully distinguish between real vs. artificial intelligence. (A general exhortation of Scholasticism was “distingue frequenter” in all fields.) One of the goals of ID theory is indeed to show that chance and necessity cannot produce information. Machines belong to “chance and necessity” because they are “necessitated” by their designer, so to speak. Therefore an IDer who denies the above ID proof self-contradicts.

We can even assume the process of natural selection is AI (where Natural Selection is an AI genetic algorithm in the wild), given it’s level of intelligence, we do not expect it to build extravagant artifacts.

To consider natural selection an “AI genetic algorithm” is to attribute it a merit that it doesn’t deserve. Not only natural selection is unable to build “extravagant artifacts”, it is unable to build the least artifact.

We can say an adding machine is intelligent, but we do not think, in and of itself it will build a space shuttle.

Actually I have on my desk an old mechanical adding machine. If you call it “intelligent” then why don’t call “intelligent” the reading lamp or the paperknife?

We rate the capability of various intelligence systems, and it is reasonable to affix limitations on them.

True, but here you contradict what you said before “we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence”. In fact, if we can rate various intelligences, we can see they form a hierarchy where at the top there is the real intelligence and at the bottom the artificial “intelligence”.

Whether the Intelligence that made the wonders of life is God, A Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence…it is irrelevant to the design inference. We might however be able to make statements about the level of capability of that intelligence.

Here again I see an inconsistence. I agree that we are able to grasp the level of capability of intelligence. But then, before a design inference on the universe as a whole, we cannot suppose that it was designed by “a Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence”. See here.

To sum up, to scordova’s question “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” my answer is: “no, we cannot consider an artificial system really intelligent”. Here I explained that real intelligence is direct connection to what I called “Infinite Information Source” (God). Here I explained that without such direct connection no comprehensibility of the world, also at the least degree, is possible. Here I explained that artificial systems (also those more sophisticated considered by AI) can show only false intelligence.

The direct connection to the Infinite Information Source (IIS) is the reason why the potentiality of knowledge of the real intelligence is infinite, as its source. No machine has this direct connection. As such the potentiality of real direct knowledge of a machine is zero. From the point of view of potentiality, the difference between real intelligence and its caricature – artificial “intelligence” – is like the difference between infinite and zero.

To deny the IIS and its connection to man is to consider man as an isolated finite system, whose potentialities are necessarily limited, due only to the configuration of its parts. This way real intelligence with its infinite potentiality of knowledge remains entirely unexplained. Said in theological terms: if man is not image of God, then man couldn’t have the potentiality of understanding he effectively has. If this simplistic materialist conception is supported by evolutionists/materialists no wonder. If it is supported by an IDer/creationist I am a bit bemused.

Comments
tragic mishap @14:
As Dembski has said, ID basically reduces to the ability to make choices unconstrained by natural law, that is free will. AI does not have free will.
Are you and Dr. Dembski claiming that an intelligent robot cannot create CSI? If you are, I disagree.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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niwrad @7:
The newborn will not be conscious because consciousness is an “emergent property” of matter – as evolutionists claim -, rather because consciousness was just potentially present in the process started by his parents.
Although I fully agree that consciousness is not an “emergent property” of matter, I am not sure I agree that "consciousness was just potentially present in the process started by his parents" or maybe I just don't understand what you mean by that. I don't believe that there can be consciousness until a spirit takes possession of the developing infant's brain when the latter reaches a level of maturity that makes it possible. I believe the human brain has certain physical properties that makes interactions with a human spirit possible. Even non-human spirits (demons) can take over a person's brain if the human spirit is too weak to fend off an invasion. Here, of course, I'm speaking on faith as a Christian. But then again, maybe this is what you meant. Correct me if you think I'm wrong. I must add that I do disagree with some on this forum that the brain is not needed for intelligence or that intelligence is entirely in the spirit. The brain is a wonderfully designed and extremely complex organ with close to 100 billion neurons and more than a trillion synaptic connections between those neurons. To say that it has no function other than to be a channel for the spirit is to underestimate the brilliance of the creator.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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As Dembski has said, ID basically reduces to the ability to make choices unconstrained by natural law, that is free will. AI does not have free will. Therefore...tragic mishap
November 20, 2013
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scordova #6
Thus it is hard for me (and James Shapiro) to say cells don’t possess some sort of intelligence (albeit mechanical, and presumably non-conscious). The cells possess an intelligence that is God-given, just like a computer possesses an intelligence that is man-given.
Natural real intelligence is always a reflection of God's intelligence. But it is a hierarchical concept. The reflection is maximum (has the highest degree of "light", the maximum focus, so to speak) in man. The reflection decreases in lower animals. Some intelligence is even present in cells, bacteria, etc. I don't deny that. I do affirm that God's intelligence somehow reverberates in all living beings, as a light beam hitting a multi-faced diamond. It is not here our disagreement. What I deny is that such natural real intelligence has something to do with artifacts like computers. For me, to speak of real intelligence about computers is improper. Computers, also if they are able to learn, simply reverberate the intelligence of their designers. They don't receive intelligence directly from God. For this reason they don't deserve the attribute of real intelligence. In two words, it seems to me our diatribe is between a mechanistic analytic bottom-up view of intelligence (your) and an organic synthetic top-down view of intelligence (mine).niwrad
November 20, 2013
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'As to how woefully inadequate the current reductive materialistic framework of biology is to explaining the preceding, please see,,,' It is no more adequate today than it was almost 100 years ago, is it Philip? Before they can address science with integrity and optimal effectiveness - leaving aside their 'de facto' reliance on QM to earn their daily bread - they must learn to follow logic, irrespective of personal antipathies as to where the logic leads them. In fact, this forum, fascinating though it is in apprising us of the findings of modern science, is, in reality, always fighting a battle (ultimately, the only battle here) to persuade our secular-fundamentalist brethren that logical inferences are simply not optional or negotiable; no more in science than in any other sphere of knowledge.Axel
November 20, 2013
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As to how woefully inadequate the current reductive materialistic framework of biology is to explaining the preceding, please see,,,
Darwin or Design? - Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church - Nov. 2012 - ontogenetic depth (excellent update) - video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change -- that is, to evolve -- any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/ Understanding Ontogenetic Depth, Part II: Natural Selection Is a Harsh Mistress - Paul Nelson - April 7, 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/understanding_ontogenetic_dept_1045581.html
Of related note, in the following video I was immediately struck, as Dr. Paul Nelson is at the 12:21 minute mark of this following video clip on butterfly metamorphosis, with the notion that metamorphosis is, by all rights, a miracle with no possible naturalistic explanation as to how it came about nor a complete explanation as to how it currently happens:
The Miracle of Development Part 1 – Origins with Dr. Paul A. Nelson – video – April 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD9qMvz6T90&feature=player_detailpage#t=736s
Also of interest is that even the DNA and protein molecules themselves cannot be explained without referenced to a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/ etc.. etc..
As to the Mr. Cordova's claim that
"“mindless” cells can make a thinking mindful conscious human being",,,,
Despite Mr. Cordova's willingness to degrade humans to the point of being merely the product of purely mechanistic processes, in which God had no direct hand in each humans formation, the consciousness of each human simply is not reducible to any material causation:
Mind and Cosmos - Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False - Thomas Nagel Excerpt: If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology. Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history. http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199919758.do
In fact, breakthroughs in quantum mechanics have allowed that the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Verse and Music:
Luke 12:7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. Third Day - "Children Of God" - Official Music Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6jO7xhU_Pw
bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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Mr. Cordova claims:
Of course I believe God made the first cells, but “mindless” cells kind of put to shame human intelligence in terms of what it can do and “understand” at the nano-scale. After all, these “mindless” cells can make a thinking mindful conscious human being. Thus it is hard for me (and James Shapiro) to say cells don’t possess some sort of intelligence (albeit mechanical, and presumably non-conscious).
The false assumptions in Mr. Cordova's thinking are that the fertilized human egg can develop into a human being all by itself and that the consciousness/soul of any particular person can be reduced to a non-conscious, i.e. to a 'mindless', source. That is, of course, a reductive materialistic position that is thoroughly at odds with mainstream Theistic thought and with current scientific evidence:
Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;,,,"
Despite Mr. Cordova's confidence, or is it hubris, that a fertilized human egg, all by its lonesome, can develop into a person, solely by reference to the deterministic (local) causes inherent within physics and chemistry, the actual state of knowledge in science as to how a single egg actually develops into a grown human, comprising trillions of intricately positioned cells, is now strongly pointing to the fact that an 'outside' source for information (outside of space and time) must be appealed to. For an example of how woefully inadequate the "local", within space and time, laws of physics and chemistry are to explaining molecular biology, researchers, despite years of research, cannot even explain how a bacterial flagellum moves by reference to solely the deterministic causes inherent within chemistry and the laws of physics, but now find that they must appeal to a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain the movement of a 'simple' bacterial flagellum. For instance Jonathan McLatchie, who has already studied the flagellum extensively, and was just assigned to do his research dissertation project on the importance of RNA-Protein interactions in Caulobacter flagellar gene regulation, under the supervision of Dr. Phil Aldridge, who is an internationally known expert on bacterial flagella, stated this to me in reply to me congratulating him:
Philip, we don't even fully understand the mechanism of rotation (for the flagellum)!
And indeed we find that in explaining the movement of the flagellum we must appeal to 'non-local' quantum effects in order to explain its motion. Yet, 'non-local' quantum effects simply are not within the classical reductive materialistic framework of science, i.e. chemistry and the laws of physics, to explain. We find that a non-local, beyond space and time, cause must be appealed to.
INFORMATION AND ENERGETICS OF QUANTUM FLAGELLA MOTOR Hiroyuki Matsuura, Nobuo Noda, Kazuharu Koide Tetsuya Nemoto and Yasumi Ito Excerpt from bottom page 7: Note that the physical principle of flagella motor does not belong to classical mechanics, but to quantum mechanics. When we can consider applying quantum physics to flagella motor, we can find out the shift of energetic state and coherent state. http://www2.ktokai-u.ac.jp/~shi/el08-046.pdf
Thus, since we cannot explain the 'simple' movement of a flagellum solely by reference to within space and time causes, what gives us the hubris to believe that we can explain the development of human being, comprising trillions of cells, from a single fertilize egg? Here are a few notes along that line:
Extreme Genome Repair - 2009 Excerpt: If its naming had followed, rather than preceded, molecular analyses of its DNA, the extremophile bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans might have been called Lazarus. After shattering of its 3.2 Mb genome into 20–30 kb pieces by desiccation or a high dose of ionizing radiation, D. radiodurans miraculously reassembles its genome such that only 3 hr later fully reconstituted nonrearranged chromosomes are present, and the cells carry on, alive as normal.,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319128/ "When a frog embryo is just developing, before it gets a face, a pattern for that face lights up on the surface of the embryo,",,, An Electric Face: A Rendering Worth a Thousand Falsifications - video - September 2011 Excerpt: The video suggests that bioelectric signals presage the morphological development of the face. It also, in an instant, gives a peak at the phenomenal processes at work in biology. As the lead researcher said, “It’s a jaw dropper.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi1Qn306IUU http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/09/electric-face-rendering-worth-thousand.html What Do Organisms Mean? Stephen L. Talbott - Winter 2011 Excerpt: Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern. Lewontin went on to remark: "Unlike a machine whose totality is created by the juxtaposition of bits and pieces with different functions and properties, the bits and pieces of a developing organism seem to come into existence as a consequence of their spatial position at critical moments in the embryo’s development. Such an object is less like a machine than it is like a language whose elements... take unique meaning from their context.[3]",,, http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/what-do-organisms-mean HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2 Epigenetics and the "Piano" Metaphor - January 2012 Excerpt: And this is only the construction of proteins we're talking about. It leaves out of the picture entirely the higher-level components -- tissues, organs, the whole body plan that draws all the lower-level stuff together into a coherent, functioning form. What we should really be talking about is not a lone piano but a vast orchestra under the directing guidance of an unknown conductor fulfilling an artistic vision, organizing and transcending the music of the assembly of individual players. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/epigenetics_and054731.html Alexander Tsiaras: Conception to birth — visualized – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyljukBE70 Comment on preceding video: Mathematician and medical image maker Alexander Tsiaras offers a stunning visualization of the process that in nine months takes an emerging human life from conception to birth. He speaks of “the marvel of this information,” “the mathematical models of how these things are done are beyond human comprehension,” “even though I look at this with the eyes of mathematician I look at this and marvel. How do these instruction sets not make mistakes as they build what is us?” Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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Mr. Cordova claims:
Of course I believe God made the first cells, but “mindless” cells kind of put to shame human intelligence in terms of what it can do and “understand” at the nano-scale. After all, these “mindless” cells can make a thinking mindful conscious human being. Thus it is hard for me (and James Shapiro) to say cells don’t possess some sort of intelligence (albeit mechanical, and presumably non-conscious).
The false assumptions in Mr. Cordova's thinking are that the fertilized human egg can develop into a human being all by itself and that the consciousness/soul of any particular person can be reduced to a non-conscious, i.e. to a 'mindless', source. That is, of course, a reductive materialistic position that is thoroughly at odds with mainstream Theistic thought and with current scientific evidence:
Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;,,,"
Despite Mr. Cordova's confidence, or is it hubris, that a fertilized human egg, all by its lonesome, can develop into a person, solely by reference to the deterministic (local) causes inherent within physics and chemistry, the actual state of knowledge in science as to how a single egg actually develops into a grown human, comprising trillions of intricately positioned cells, is now strongly pointing to the fact that an 'outside' source for information (outside of space and time) must be appealed to. For an example of how woefully inadequate the "local", within space and time, laws of physics and chemistry are to explaining molecular biology, researchers, despite years of research, cannot even explain how a bacterial flagellum moves by reference to solely the deterministic causes inherent within chemistry and the laws of physics, but now find that they must appeal to a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain the movement of a 'simple' bacterial flagellum. For instance Jonathan McLatchie, who has already studied the flagellum extensively, and was just assigned to do his research dissertation project on the importance of RNA-Protein interactions in Caulobacter flagellar gene regulation, under the supervision of Dr. Phil Aldridge, who is an internationally known expert on bacterial flagella, stated this to me in reply to me congratulating him:
Philip, we don't even fully understand the mechanism of rotation (for the flagellum)!
And indeed we find that in explaining the movement of the flagellum we must appeal to 'non-local' quantum effects in order to explain its motion. Yet, 'non-local' quantum effects simply are not within the classical reductive materialistic framework of science, i.e. chemistry and the laws of physics, to explain. We find that a non-local, beyond space and time, cause must be appealed to.
INFORMATION AND ENERGETICS OF QUANTUM FLAGELLA MOTOR Hiroyuki Matsuura, Nobuo Noda, Kazuharu Koide Tetsuya Nemoto and Yasumi Ito Excerpt from bottom page 7: Note that the physical principle of flagella motor does not belong to classical mechanics, but to quantum mechanics. When we can consider applying quantum physics to flagella motor, we can find out the shift of energetic state and coherent state. http://www2.ktokai-u.ac.jp/~shi/el08-046.pdf
Thus, since we cannot explain the 'simple' movement of a flagellum solely by reference to within space and time causes, what gives us the hubris to believe that we can explain the development of human being, comprising trillions of cells, from a single fertilize egg? Here are a few notes along that line:
Extreme Genome Repair - 2009 Excerpt: If its naming had followed, rather than preceded, molecular analyses of its DNA, the extremophile bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans might have been called Lazarus. After shattering of its 3.2 Mb genome into 20–30 kb pieces by desiccation or a high dose of ionizing radiation, D. radiodurans miraculously reassembles its genome such that only 3 hr later fully reconstituted nonrearranged chromosomes are present, and the cells carry on, alive as normal.,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319128/ "When a frog embryo is just developing, before it gets a face, a pattern for that face lights up on the surface of the embryo,",,, An Electric Face: A Rendering Worth a Thousand Falsifications - video - September 2011 Excerpt: The video suggests that bioelectric signals presage the morphological development of the face. It also, in an instant, gives a peak at the phenomenal processes at work in biology. As the lead researcher said, “It’s a jaw dropper.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi1Qn306IUU http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/09/electric-face-rendering-worth-thousand.html What Do Organisms Mean? Stephen L. Talbott - Winter 2011 Excerpt: Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern. Lewontin went on to remark: "Unlike a machine whose totality is created by the juxtaposition of bits and pieces with different functions and properties, the bits and pieces of a developing organism seem to come into existence as a consequence of their spatial position at critical moments in the embryo’s development. Such an object is less like a machine than it is like a language whose elements... take unique meaning from their context.[3]",,, http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/what-do-organisms-mean HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2 Epigenetics and the "Piano" Metaphor - January 2012 Excerpt: And this is only the construction of proteins we're talking about. It leaves out of the picture entirely the higher-level components -- tissues, organs, the whole body plan that draws all the lower-level stuff together into a coherent, functioning form. What we should really be talking about is not a lone piano but a vast orchestra under the directing guidance of an unknown conductor fulfilling an artistic vision, organizing and transcending the music of the assembly of individual players. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/epigenetics_and054731.html Alexander Tsiaras: Conception to birth — visualized – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyljukBE70 Comment on preceding video: Mathematician and medical image maker Alexander Tsiaras offers a stunning visualization of the process that in nine months takes an emerging human life from conception to birth. He speaks of “the marvel of this information,” “the mathematical models of how these things are done are beyond human comprehension,” “even though I look at this with the eyes of mathematician I look at this and marvel. How do these instruction sets not make mistakes as they build what is us?” Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
As to how woefully inadequate the current reductive materialistic framework of biology is to explaining the preceding, please see,,,
Darwin or Design? - Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church - Nov. 2012 - ontogenetic depth (excellent update) - video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change -- that is, to evolve -- any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/ Understanding Ontogenetic Depth, Part II: Natural Selection Is a Harsh Mistress - Paul Nelson - April 7, 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/understanding_ontogenetic_dept_1045581.html
bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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... which of course, predicates the mystery of God-given life, in the first place!Axel
November 20, 2013
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Niwrad, it all comes down to the point I made recently, namely, that intelligence is exclusively a faculty of human personality, and, more specifically, the soul: the memory, will and understanding. But these boffins won't listen to their uncle Dudley - even when he pronounces definitively!Axel
November 20, 2013
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scordova thank you for honestly accepting my critic. If I decided to counter a position (a rare event) of one of my colleagues (a very intelligent and clever IDer, by the way) it is because the topic is really very important. You say:
A cell from the father and a cell from the mother join to conceive a human being. The cells, are presumably non-sentient entities. Yet they spawn a conscious being. I do think consciousness is spiritual, but the fact conscious beings are being spawned by non-sentient entities is paradoxical.
Here is a key point. It is paradoxical according to a materialist worldview. It is not paradoxical according to the traditional worldview. In traditional cosmology, the parents, their sperm and ovum eggs and the embryologic development are not mere pieces of matter and material events. They are "animated", in the sense the entire business has an "animic" (non-corporeal) counterpart. (This explains why a newborn receives from his parents, beyond a corporeal heirdom, also a psychical heirdom.) The parents, their sperm/ovum couple and all the process forming a new human, imply the potentiality of consciousness just from the beginning. The newborn will not be conscious because consciousness is an "emergent property" of matter - as evolutionists claim -, rather because consciousness was just potentially present in the process started by his parents.niwrad
November 20, 2013
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I thank you for airing an opposing opinion. I think it is fair to say I'm in the minority at UD in my position, but I sense I'm not alone. Because there is not unity in the ID camp over the topic, I felt it had to be put on the table. There was a comment buried in my discussion which I elaborate here. A cell from the father and a cell from the mother join to conceive a human being. The cells, are presumably non-sentient entities. Yet they spawn a conscious being. I do think consciousness is spiritual, but the fact conscious beings are being spawned by non-sentient entities is paradoxical. Those non-sentient entities (the sperm and ovum egg) are arguably weak AI systems. They are able to govern the fabrication of a new human being. That weak AI system (the sperm and the Ovum) in terms of what it makes, surpasses all known man-made technologies. Of course I believe God made the first cells, but "mindless" cells kind of put to shame human intelligence in terms of what it can do and "understand" at the nano-scale. After all, these "mindless" cells can make a thinking mindful conscious human being. Thus it is hard for me (and James Shapiro) to say cells don't possess some sort of intelligence (albeit mechanical, and presumably non-conscious). The cells possess an intelligence that is God-given, just like a computer possesses an intelligence that is man-given.scordova
November 20, 2013
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niwrad, I agree with you. I wrote this on Sal's thread: "ID is about the source or cause of the creative conception that informs CSI rather than the method by which it is produced? A robot could never be the source of that creative conception? ID less about playing the music and more about writing the score?"StephenB
November 20, 2013
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Mapou I understand why you think so. You are an AI scientist. No wonder you appreciate your field. Me too appreciate high technology, as robotics. But the question of principle remains. A machine that learns remains a machine. A living intelligent being is a manifestation of God itself. There is a little difference...niwrad
November 20, 2013
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niwrad, Ok, I was going to critique the rest of your article but I realize that your entire point of view is based on what you think an intelligent robot is and will always be. Your view is that robots do what their programmers programmed them to do. I think it's an archaic view, one that is faulty. The new thing in AI is machine learning, not programming. Therefore, I think your conclusions are also faulty.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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Again, robots build cities because they are programmed to do so by human engineers. In this case, the “line between real and artificial intelligence” is the clear hierarchical demarcation between “who programs and what is programmed”. “Who” are the human robotics engineers, “what” are the robots.
This is incorrect, IMO. I think scordova is speaking of truly intelligent robots, i.e., robots that can learn to speak, read, write and get an education, just like human children. Such robots are not pre-programmed to do anything in particular. They can be trained to learn to become experts at various things, just like humans. True, we don't have robots with that capability now but they are coming. And sooner than most people think.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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niwrad :
This is an extremely reductive way to consider intelligence. Why consider only the construction of artifacts? Are people not constructing artifacts all stupid? There are countless evidences of higher activities by human intelligence. For example: the elaboration of logic, languages, mathematics, philosophy, sciences… To reduce intelligence only to its practical uses is pragmatism/materialism of the worse kind. A movement that names itself “intelligent design movement” cannot have a conception of intelligence so low.
Well, what scordova wrote is this, "So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing)." I think his use of the word 'events' in his definition includes all the examples you mentioned.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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