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An attempt at computing dFSCI for English language

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In a recent post, I was challenged to offer examples of computation of dFSCI for a list of 4 objects for which I had inferred design.

One of the objects was a Shakespeare sonnet.

My answer was the following:

A Shakespeare sonnet. Alan’s comments about that are out of order. I don’t infer design because I know of Shakespeare, or because I am fascinated by the poetry (although I am). I infer design simply because this is a piece of language with perfect meaning in english (OK, ancient english).
Now, a Shakespeare sonnet is about 600 characters long. That corresponds to a search space of about 3000 bits. Now, I cannot really compute the target space for language, but I am assuming here that the number of 600 characters sequences which make good sense in english is lower than 2^2500, and therefore the functional complexity of a Shakespeare sonnet is higher than 500 bits, Dembski’s UPB. As I am aware of no simple algorithm which can generate english sonnets from single characters, I infer design. I am certain that this is not a false positive.

In the discussion, I admitted however that I had not really computed the target space in this case:

The only point is that I have not a simple way to measure the target space for English language, so I have taken a shortcut by choosing a long enough sequence, so that I am well sure that the target space /search space ratio is above 500 bits. As I have clearly explained in my post #400.
For proteins, I have methods to approximate a lower threshold for the target space. For language I have never tried, because it is not my field, but I am sure it can be done. We need a linguist (Piotr, where are you?).
That’s why I have chosen and over-generous length. Am I wrong? Well, just offer a false positive.
For language, it is easy to show that the functional complexity is bound to increase with the length of the sequence. That is IMO true also for proteins, but it is less intuitive.

That remains true. But I have reflected, and I thought that perhaps, even if I am not a linguist and not even a amthematician, I could try to define better quantitatively the target space in this case, or at least to find a reasonable higher threshold for it.

So, here is the result of my reasonings. Again, I am neither a linguist nor a mathematician, and I will happy to consider any comment, criticism or suggestion. If I have made errors in my computations, I am ready to apologize.

Let’s start from my functional definition: any text of 600 characters which has good meaning in English.

The search space for a random search where every character has the same probability, assuming an alphabet of 30 characters (letters, space, elementary punctuation) gives easily a search space of 30^600, that is 2^2944. IOWs 2944 bits.

OK.

Now, I make the following assumptions (more or less derived from a quick Internet search:

a) There are about 200,000 words in English

b) The average length of an English word is 5 characters.

I also make the easy assumption that a text which has good meaning in English is made of English words.

For a 600 character text, we can therefore assume an average number of words of 120 (600/5).

Now, we compute the possible combinations (with repetition) of 120 words from a pool of 200000. The result, if I am right, is: 2^1453. IOWs 1453 bits.

Now, obviously each of these combinations can have n! permutations, therefore each of them has 120! different permutation, that is 2^660. IOWs 660 bits.

So, multiplying the total number of word combinations with repetitions by the total number of permutations for each combination, we have:

2^1453 * 2^660 = 2^2113

IOWs, 2113 bits.

What is this number? It is the total number of sequences of 120 words that we can derive from a pool of 200000 English words. Or at least, a good approximation of that number.

It’s a big number.

Now, the important concept: in that number are certainly included all the sequences of 600 characters which have good meaning in English. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine sequences that have good meaning in English and are not made of correct English words.

And the important question: how many of those sequences have good meaning in English? I have no idea. But anyone will agree that it must be only a small subset.

So, I believe that we can say that 2^2113 is a higher threshold for out target space of sequences of 600 characters which have a good meaning in English. And, certainly, a very generous higher threshold.

Well, if we take that number as a measure of our target space, what is the functional information in a sequence of 600 characters which has good meaning in English?

It’s easy: the ratio between target space and search space:

2^2113 / 2^ 2944 = 2^-831. IOWs, taking -log2, 831 bits of functional information. (Thank you to drc466 for the kind correction here)

So, if we consider as a measure of our functional space a number which is certainly an extremely overestimated higher threshold for the real value, still our dFSI is over 800 bits.

Let’s go back to my initial statement:

Now, a Shakespeare sonnet is about 600 characters long. That corresponds to a search space of about 3000 bits. Now, I cannot really compute the target space for language, but I am assuming here that the number of 600 characters sequences which make good sense in english is lower than 2^2500, and therefore the functional complexity of a Shakespeare sonnet is higher than 500 bits, Dembski’s UPB. As I am aware of no simple algorithm which can generate english sonnets from single characters, I infer design. I am certain that this is not a false positive.

Was I wrong? You decide.

By the way, another important result is that if I make the same computation for a 300 character string, the dFSI value is 416 bits. That is a very clear demonstration that, in language, dFSI is bound to increase with the length of the string.

Comments
Zachriel the projectionist:
You claimed you had support for your position, but it seems to be a matter of you having preconceptions, then claiming support which you can’t provide.
Exactly what we have been saying to you and your ilk for over 150 years. Go figure.Joe
November 24, 2014
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Zachriel is still confused:
Indeed, if you have an oracle that can recognize meaningful phrases, then an evolutionary algorithm can find long meaningful phrases.
The alleged "evolutionary algorithm" is guided towards the solution. Real-life evolution is not supposed to be guided- it isn't supposed to have goals. Evolutionary algorithms to not simulate unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution. Zachriel is equivocating, as usual.Joe
November 24, 2014
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DNA Jock is quick to criticize ID but very slow in trying to defend evolutionism.Joe
November 24, 2014
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gpuccio @ 728
No. It is perfectly possible to adjust for the number of tests. For example, by adjusting our alpha level. The important point is that in design detection we are looking for extremely low probabilities. In that context, the number of possible tests is simply irrelevant.
Possible to adjust, but quite difficult; I have yet to see an IDist even try. When you assert “the number of possible tests is simply irrelevant” you are simply assuming your conclusion. No need to bother with any pesky math at all.
Is it so difficult to understand that you must give a specification (in meaning or function) which is independent from the specific bits you are observing?
The problem with your method is that the specification you give is NOT independent from the specific bits you have observed. As you have noted “sequence X maps to function Y”. You consider the specification “independent” because you don’t understand the mapping for proteins. The simple fact is that when you chose a “function”, you are indulging in TSS. You have never tested for Adenosine Pentaphosphate Synthase, because you have never observed it. As I noted in #161 The bullet holes have been in the wall since before any humans existed. Along comes John Walker: “Look at this bullet hole I found”. Others find a tight grouping of bullet holes around this one. Along comes gpuccio, paints a circle around the bullet holes and calls his circle “the functional specification for ATP synthase”. Does some calculations. Along comes Praveen Nina and others, and points to a bullet hole that is a long, long way away from Walker’s tight grouping, but still falls within gpuccio’s original specification “ATP synthase”. His calculations are destroyed. [because the sequence requirements for ATPsynthase have been blown wide open] In light of Nina et al, gpuccio does two things: 1) He re-draws his circle so that it now excludes Alveolata, and renames the Walker circle “the traditional ATP synthase” 2) he draws a brand-spanking-new circle around the Alveolata bullet hole(s) because it is a “very different complex molecule, made of many different protein sequences, and is a complex example of a different engineering solution”. This is classic Texas Sharp Shooter.DNA_Jock
November 24, 2014
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Dionisio, You are asking exactly the right kinds of questions. Gary S. Gaulin needs to be able to articulate his ideas in a way that we the unwashed masses can comprehend if he wants to get a proper hearing here. I truly sympathize with his plight. I know what it is like to believe you are on to something important only to be met with confused blank stares. It is beyond frustrating. But the miracle of human language is such that any concept can be shared if you are willing to go to the considerable effort that is required. Take my conversation with Zac for example it has been a long hard trek but I believe he now is beginning to understand my argument. The near future will be very illuminating in this regard. Let's see if he gets it. peacefifthmonarchyman
November 24, 2014
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#741 Gary S. Gaulin
D: Has anyone ever tested your theory or model, as far as you’re aware of, on cell fate specification/determination mechanisms?
Considering how the ID Lab model has been online since 2011 the question should be: Why am I not aware of a properly funded study to determine how well the model performs for modeling cell fate specification/determination mechanisms? Is academia asleep at the wheel?
Interesting questions indeed. Maybe someone else reading this thread would like to attempt answering them? I can't. This is above my pay grade. :) Perhaps KF, gpuccio or someone else can give us a hand with all these interrogations? Their insightful comments could shed additional light on this discussion that your interesting theory has generated here?Dionisio
November 24, 2014
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#740 Gary S. Gaulin
D:Perhaps your explanation will generate a few questions about missing details? Maybe someone here in UD can help us to created a separate thread dedicated to this interesting issue we’re looking into here?
[1]Even though I look at it as being pompous to expect more detail than that from someone a billion dollar system only funds the destruction of, the idea of a separate thread sounds fun. My day job has been keeping me unusually busy and I don’t have much free time but would do my best to keep up with comments. [2]I would love to be able to already have a model to show all that you asked for. But I only have so much time and cannot afford proper research. [3]All that had to be wasted, to suit academic politics, not science.
RE: [1] I don't quite understand what the first statement in bold characters mean. Can you explain it another way? Thank you. RE: [2] Apparently I misunderstood your paper. I thought your 46-page PDF document is the description of your theory, that could be applied (by someone who understands it as well as you do) on any biological system or subsystem, in order to model their built-in mechanisms and their origin. Can you explain this? RE: [3] I don't quite understand what that last statement means. Note: Please, be aware that my reading comprehension is rather poor. My communication skills are almost nonexistent. My IQ score is about the same as my age, but it changes in the opposite direction. When someone says a joke at a weekend social gathering, I usually get it by Tuesday, after my wife explains it to me. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I like to ask simple questions. But you don't have to answer them all. I understand your daily job keeps you extremely busy, leaving no spare time to write in this forum. I appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions so far, and look forward to hearing more from you on the interesting theory you have developed. I'll try to read your 46-page PDF document at my slow pace, to see if I can understand it and later test it on some of the examples posted in the 'third way' thread.Dionisio
November 24, 2014
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Dionisio:
Has anyone ever tested your theory or model, as far as you’re aware of, on cell fate specification/determination mechanisms?
Considering how the ID Lab model has been online since 2011 the question should be: Why am I not aware of a properly funded study to determine how well the model performs for modeling cell fate specification/determination mechanisms? Is academia asleep at the wheel?Gary S. Gaulin
November 23, 2014
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Dionisio:
Perhaps your explanation will generate a few questions about missing details? Maybe someone here in UD can help us to created a separate thread dedicated to this interesting issue we’re looking into here?
Even though I look at it as being pompous to expect more detail than that from someone a billion dollar system only funds the destruction of, the idea of a separate thread sounds fun. My day job has been keeping me unusually busy and I don't have much free time but would do my best to keep up with comments. I would love to be able to already have a model to show all that you asked for. But I only have so much time and cannot afford proper research. All that had to be wasted, to suit academic politics, not science.Gary S. Gaulin
November 23, 2014
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737 Gary S. Gaulin #738 follow-up Has anyone ever tested your theory or model, as far as you’re aware of, on cell fate specification/determination mechanisms? Is there any documentation of any of those tests? Thank youDionisio
November 23, 2014
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737 Gary S. Gaulin
I explained a model (that does not leave “intelligence” out of the equation) for atom on up origins experimentation. Expecting more than that from a scientific theory is a red-herring argument, from those who seem too scientifically lazy to even test a scientific model that was given to them to test for themselves.
Have you ever tested that model yourself? Has someone else ever tested that model, as far as you're aware of? Can you point to the documentation of some of those tests? Thank you.Dionisio
November 23, 2014
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Dionisio:
Are you familiar with the mechanisms operating in the asymmetric mitosis in human development? Can you apply your theory to describe the origin of any of those mechanisms?
I explained a model (that does not leave "intelligence" out of the equation) for atom on up origins experimentation. Expecting more than that from a scientific theory is a red-herring argument, from those who seem too scientifically lazy to even test a scientific model that was given to them to test for themselves.Gary S. Gaulin
November 23, 2014
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#732 Gary S. Gaulin RE: #735 follow-up Perhaps your explanation will generate a few questions about missing details? Maybe someone here in UD can help us to created a separate thread dedicated to this interesting issue we're looking into here? Thanks.Dionisio
November 23, 2014
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#732 Gary S. Gaulin RE: #734 follow-up In the thread about 'the third way' there are more examples of biological mechanisms that we could use to illustrate the algorithms of your theory. But perhaps the asymmetric mitotic division is better known and much easier to describe in spatiotemporal terms. I look forward to reading the detailed description of your theory applied to the given example. Thank you.Dionisio
November 23, 2014
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#732 Gary S. Gaulin RE: #733 follow-up Your 46-page document seems very interesting, But I'm having problems associating it to a real example, like the asymmetric mitotic division, in spatiotemporal terms. Please, when applying your theory to describing the origin and functioning of the asymmetric mitotic mechanisms, make sure your algorithms clearly explain how different proteins involved in those mechanisms appear in the right locations, in the right amounts, at the right time. This mechanisms include, among others, the centrioles duplications, timely centrosomes migration to the poles, spindle checkpoints, kinetochores connection to microtubules, tension detection, associated regulatory networks and signaling pathways, etc. Thank you.Dionisio
November 23, 2014
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#732 Gary S. Gaulin Thank you for your post. I looked at your 46-page paper, but could not read it all yet, because it is not easy for me to read it. Perhaps a real biology example would help. Are you familiar with the mechanisms operating in the asymmetric mitosis in human development? Can you apply your theory to describe the origin of any of those mechanisms? Thank you again. :)Dionisio
November 23, 2014
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Dionisio:
I still don’t understand how we got these biological systems where different proteins are in the right location, in the right amount, at the right time, for so many different situations. Do you have any example of a step-by-step description of the process that created the complex mechanism researchers observe these days? Thank you.
In a single illustration intelligent cause (from behavioral cause) goes stepwise like this: https://sites.google.com/site/intelligenceprograms/Home/Causation.jpg The online text operationally defines "intelligence", has links to models, explains the step-by-step in the Introduction then in more detail in separate sections (further subdivided into the four required parts of the circuit) for Unimolecular Intelligence, Molecular Intelligence, Cellular Intelligence, Multicellular Intelligence and Human Multicellular Intelligence. There are also self-assembly ideas to help conceptualize where cellular organelles always came from by just happening (not evolving). https://sites.google.com/site/theoryofid/home/TheoryOfIntelligentDesign.pdf Researchers regularly "observe" things happen, without knowing much about their mechanisms work. What matters the most is understanding what is being observed. Scientific evidence has for decades been showing to me that living genomes are a cognitive circuit made of molecular components. Someone else who believes that it's impossible for intelligence to exist in living genetic systems will see what they want instead, when observing the same thing.Gary S. Gaulin
November 23, 2014
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Just in case there are any lurkers who are coming in late to this conversation I will reiterate the no cheating clause. Any algorithm claiming to meet the challenge be checked to verify that it does not in any way reference the original string. peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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zac says, One or none, depending on the algorithm. I say, no depending on the arbitrary decision of the programer. The algorithm simply follows the predetermined decision of the programer it has to be that way. It is this sort of silly confusion that lead me to define non-computable as I did in the first place. Zac said, You claimed you had support for your position, but it seems to be a matter of you having preconceptions, then claiming support which you can’t provide. I say, The support I will provide is not philosophical it is empirical. To paraphrase the wisest philosopher who ever lived. "If he did not believe Plato and he did not believe Godel he would not believe a even a slam dunk mathematical Proof." Here is the deal Zac finally after 2500 years we have moved from the time of philosophical argument to the time of empirical demonstration. If you or anyone else think that IC stuff can be produced algorithmically go for it produce an algorithm and put it to the test let me get you started beow is a numerical representation of an Irreducibly Complex artifact. All you have to do is write an algorithm that will mimic it closely enough to infallibly fool an observer. You have your challenge now Put up or shut up 3972 1401 2424 5547 5547 2424 2822 652 873 1519 2098 2316 3739 4279 1223 3588 4396 846 1722 1124 40 4012 3588 5207 846 3588 1096 1537 4690 1138 2596 4561 3588 3724 5207 2316 1722 1411 2596 4151 42 1537 386 3498 2424 5547 3588 2962 1473 1223 3739 2983 5485 2532 651 1519 5218 4102 1722 3956 3588 1484 5228 3588 3686 846 1722 3739 1510 2532 4771 2822 2424 5547 3956 3588 1510 1722 4516 27 2316 2822 40 5485 4771 2532 1515 575 2316 3962 1473 2532 2962 2424 5547 4412 3303 2168 3588 2316 1473 1223 2424 5547 4012 3956 4771 3754 3588 4102 4771 2605 1722 3650 3588 2889 3144 1063 1473 1510 3588 2316 3739 3000 1722 3588 4151 1473 1722 3588 2098 3588 5207 846 5613 89 3417 4771 4160 3842 1909 3588 4335 1473 1189 1487 4459 2235 4218 2137 1722 3588 2307 3588 2316 2064 4314 4771 1971 1063 3708 4771 2443 5100 3330 5486 4771 4152 1519 3588 4741 4771 3778 1161 1510 4837 1722 4771 1223 3588 1722 240 4102 4771 5037 2532 1473 3756 2309 1161 4771 50 80 3754 4178 4388 2064 4314 4771 2532 2967 891 3588 1204 2443 5100 2590 2192 2532 1722 4771 2531 2532 1722 3588 3062 1484 1672 5037 2532 915 4680 5037 2532 453 3781 1510 3779 3588 2596 1473 4289 2532 4771 3588 1722 4516 2097 3756 1063 1870 3588 2098 1411 1063 2316 1510 1519 4991 3956 3588 4100 2453 5037 4412 2532 1672 1343 1063 2316 1722 846 601 1537 4102 1519 4102 2531 1125 3588 1161 1342 1537 4102 2198 601 1063 3709 2316 575 3772 1909 3956 763 2532 93 444 3588 3588 225 1722 93 2722 1360 3588 1110 3588 2316 5318 1510 1722 846 3588 2316 1063 846 5319 3588 1063 517 846 575 2937 2889 3588 4161 3539 2529 3588 5037 126 846 1411 2532 2305 1519 3588 1510 846 379 1360 1097 3588 2316 3756 5613 2316 1392 2228 2168 235 235 3154 1722 3588 1261 846 2532 4654 3588 801 846 2588 5335 1510 4680 3471 2532 236 3588 1391 3588 862 2316 1722 3667 1504 5349 444 2532 4071 2532 5074 2532 2062 1352 3860 846 3588 2316 1722 3588 1939 3588 2588 846 1519 167 3588 818 3588 4983 846 1722 846 3748 3337 3588 225 3588 2316 1722 3588 5579 2532 4573 2532 3000 3588 2937 3844 3588 2936 3739 1510 2128 1519 3588 165 281 1223 3778 3860 846 3588 2316 1519 3806 819 3588 5037 1063 2338 846 3337 3588 5446 5540 1519 3588 3844 5449 3668 5037 2532 3588 730 863 3588 5446 5540 3588 2338 1572 1722 3588 3715 846 1519 240 730 1722 730 3588 808 2716 2532 3588 489 3739 1163 3588 4106 846 1722 848 1438 618 2532 2531 3756 1381 3588 2316 2192 1722 1922 3860 846 3588 2316 1519 96 3563 4160 3588 3361 2520 4137 3956 93 4189 4124 2549 3324 5355 5408 2054 1388 2550 5588 2637 2319 5197 5244 213 2182 2556 1118 545 801 802 794 415 3748 3588 1345 3588 2316 1921 3754 3588 3588 5108 4238 514 2288 1510 3756 3440 846 4160 235 2532 4909 3588 4238 3972 1401 2424 5547 5547 2424 2822 652 873 1519 2098 2316 3739 4279 1223 3588 4396 846 1722 1124 40 4012 3588 5207 846 3588 1096 1537 4690 1138 2596 4561 3588 3724 5207 2316 1722 1411 2596 4151 42 1537 386 3498 2424 5547 3588 2962 1473 1223 3739 2983 5485 peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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Zachriel: "Of course information has to be transferred from the environment to the genome. That’s how it works." So, environment transfers information to the genome about how to use a proton gradient to build ATP? By assembling thousands of specific aminoacids? Interesting indeed.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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DNA_Jock: "I agree that the location(s) of the bullet hole(s) constrains where we apply paint, but it does not determine where we apply paint, as you admit here (“We can choose”) and you illustrate below." That is simply because we can use any functional definition. The procedure infers design for any functional definition which implies an extremely high complexity. It has nothing to do with TSS. It derives from the simple observation that in huge search space the functional spaces which are really small are completely beyond the range of random search. It's the same reason why the molecules in a gas never assume an ordered configuration (you know, it's called second law of thermodynamics, and it is a law of information). "Multiple issues here: 1 Never mind “concentric circles”, the target is only contiguous if we are painting in “function space”, not in “sequence-space”. You have no clue about its shape in either case." No. The idea of concentric circles was about levels of the same function. If I define the level as "at least x", I am excluding the lower levels (the outer circles). IOWs, I am making the target smaller. My point was, and is, that we cannot make it "arbitrarily smaller", because otherwise it will no more include the observed hit. I am speaking of levels of the defined function. What is your problem? If my enzyme accelerates the reaction of n times, I cannot define the target as "accelerating the reaction 2n times or more", because in that way I certainly make it smaller, but so small that my hit is no more in it. "2 As you freely admit, you are selecting the size of the target based on the observed bullet holes. This is TSS." No. This is simply using the observed effect size to define a rejection region. It has nothing to do with TSS. "Thereby dramatically reducing the degree of constraint…" No. As said, we can choose any function. The only constraint here is that the function must really have existed before we describe it. We cannot "invent" a function. We can only choose what to describe among things that really exist. "If you are using Fisherian testing, that “complete liberty” is a death-knell for the validity of your test. As I have explained previously.(#556) when I said “Fisherian testing is also sensitive to the number of tests you might have performed. Imagine the jelly bean researchers had tested green first, then stopped…” and “If you look at your data, and then start doing Fisherian tests on it, you will produce garbage results.”" No. It is perfectly possible to adjust for the number of tests. For example, by adjusting our alpha level. The important point is that in design detection we are looking for extremely low probabilities. In that context, the number of possible tests is simply irrelevant. That's why my example of a 600 character sequence hold true for my specification "having good meaning in English". And it holds true for the specification "having good meaning in any known language". And it holds true for the specification "having good meaning in any pre-existing language that we may discover in the future, on other planets, everywhere". Why? Because my lower level for the functional complexity of that sequence in English is 637 bits, with Roy's correction. The true functional complexity is certainly much higher. So, let's say that there are 100000 known languages with a good structure. Let's say that that means about 17 bits more in the target space. The functional complexity's lower threshold remains 620 bits. Now, how many languages can exist in the whole universe? 500 bits is the number of quantum states from the Big Bang to now. The number of languages that really existed anywhere, any time, in this universe is certainly much lower. Let's say 2^200? 200 bits? That would leave us still with 420 bits of functional information. What we cannot do is to build a new language based on the characters in the observed string. So, I cannot say: From now on, I define a new language where l.qvff..stscilrriegakbb means "My" oprzbdfbnguio.h means "dog" odjjsvamrcxly means "is eating". And so on. That's what I mean by saying: "Please remember, you must not use the specific contingency in the sequence (the specific characters)." You say: "3 You CAN make the target arbitrarily small, subject to certain constraints, as you illustrate below." No. Not arbitrarily small, as I have explained. You say: "And so long as I can continue to generate “explicit functional motivations” (which is fairly easy), I can keep making my target smaller and smaller and smaller. " No. I can only choose functions with a smaller target among those which exist. I cannot make a function that does not exist. As you cannot invent a meaning for my random sequence. And about the level of the function, I can make it only as small as the observed object allows. You say: "As you know, I have never accepted that texts are a relevant analogy. " They are not an analogy. They are a true example of design inference. No analogy at all. You say: "I do not understand your “specific contingency in the sequence” requirement here, and it strikes me as problematic." I have explained it very clearly. The only problematic thing is that you insist in not wanting to understand it. As shown by what follows. You say: "Am I allowed to use the text to come up with my specification? If I am not allowed, then the analogy fails: the protein-specifier IS using the observed functionality to come up with the specification." You are allowed to use the text, but not the specific bits of it, in your specification. The same as for proteins. "A sequence which has good meaning in English" is valid" "A sequence which starts with "Why" and has n "a", m "b", and where "Why" is followed by "is", and so on, is not valid. IOWs, you cannot describe the sequence in detail while specifying it. Nor use the information about the sequence itself. So, "a proteins which accelerates reaction x" is valid. A proteins which starts with starts with "MLDDRARMEA", and has n glycines and m alanines, and so on, is not good. You say: "If I am allowed, then the challenge becomes trivial. My specification takes the form “After decryption with algorithm X, the string becomes a passage in “good English” that describes [insert arbitrarily narrow specification of the passage’s content here]”" It is as trivial as it is wrong. That's exactly what you cannot do. how would you build the algorithm X, if not by inventing it explicitly for my random sequence? I am good at it too! Let's try. An algorithm which says: The first character, whatever it is, becomes "W" The second becomes "h". The third becomes "y" The fourth becomes a space. The fifth becomes "i" The sixth becomes "s". And so on. And, miracle! we have the Shakespeare's sonnet. See, I am even better than you are: I don't even need to know the details of the random sequence. And I am better than Dawkins: I have got a whole sonnet. Is it so difficult to understand that you must give a specification (in meaning or function) which is independent from the specific bits you are observing? And that you cannot input the necessary functional information in your specification? But I have no hope that I will ever convince you. Maybe we should stop here, or wherever you want.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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Zachriel to fifthmonarchyman:
You claimed you had support for your position, but it seems to be a matter of you having preconceptions, then claiming support which you can’t provide.
That's a good capsule summary of ID.keith s
November 23, 2014
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gpuccio: An oracle in this case means intelligent selection, added information. Of course information has to be transferred from the environment to the genome. That's how it works. gpuccio: The abilities of an evolutionary algorithm are severely limited by the pre-defined “meanings” and procedures in the algorithm. It's the same way people learn. Babies smack their lips, and their parents reward them with affection for having said "Papa!" gpuccio: How can you compare that with the conscious appreciation of meaning, which can recognize tons of new original meaning, and generate it? Meaningful phrases is YOUR criteria! Your claim was that the sparseness precludes random search, which is correct, but it doesn't preclude evolutionary search.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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Zachriel: "Random search, but not necessarily for evolutionary search. Indeed, if you have an oracle that can recognize meaningful phrases, then an evolutionary algorithm can find long meaningful phrases. That would only be true if they were connected within sequence space, no matter how rare they might be." Yes, and so? An oracle in this case means intelligent selection, added information. And the functional space must be connected. The oracle would be complex, and aware of which phrases are meaningful. The abilities of an evolutionary algorithm are severely limited by the pre-defined "meanings" and procedures in the algorithm. How can you compare that with the conscious appreciation of meaning, which can recognize tons of new original meaning, and generate it? Whatever you can say, the inner experience: "This means something" is the true driver of all our cognition. An algorithm, however complex, never has that experience. An algorithm simply has no idea of what "meaning" means.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: How many repeating decimals does it take to determine they will always repeat? One or none, depending on the algorithm. In the case of one, it expands the fraction keeping track of the state of each result. When a state repeats, then the algorithm stops, (unless it ends otherwise). In the case of none, it converts the fraction to lowest terms, then calculates the prime factors of the denominator. If there is a prime factor for the denominator that is not also a prime factor of the digital base, then it is a repeating expansion. These are the same standard algorithms people use. Repeating numbers are computable. That means an algorithm can calculate an arbitrary nth digit in finite time.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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Zac said. That is incorrect. There are algorithms that can recognize repeating decimals. They stop. I say, How many repeating decimals does it take to determine they will always repeat? How does the algorithm know that the next one will not vary? Peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: It just calculates blindly forever. That is incorrect. There are algorithms that can recognize repeating decimals. They stop. fifthmonarchyman: Your worldview just has not equipped you to see what is obvious to folks on my side of the divide. You claimed you had support for your position, but it seems to be a matter of you having preconceptions, then claiming support which you can't provide.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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zac said, And a simple algorithm can calculate one-third to an arbitrary numbers of decimal places—just like Shakespeare. i say, yes an algorithm is an algorithm nothing special about who does the calculating You say, Indeed, while your Shakespeare intuits, an algorithm can determine that it is a repeating decimal, which means it knows the value of any arbitrary digit. I say No!!!!! an algorithm does not know anything!! It just calculates blindly forever. It takes Shakespeare to know. To stand with hands out and say stop I've seen enough. Zac this is getting to be repetitive. I know I will never convince you of this stuff. Your worldview just has not equipped you to see what is obvious to folks on my side of the divide. lets just agree to disagree and get to the science. That is unless you have some genuine questions peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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gpuccio @ 691 :
So, you are admitting that the functions exist before. How we define them is a human construct. Well, that is exactly my point. You prefer to call “target” the human definition. I prefer to call “target” the existing function. What’s the difference?
The difference is whether the application of paint is an example of the TSS fallacy or not. IOW the subject under discussion…
The important point is: The target which already existed (the function” limits and constrains the human target (the definition of the function and of its level). That is my point. And that is where you are wrong. We can choose different “function-targets”. We can define different functions which already existed. But we cannot invent a function.
I agree that the location(s) of the bullet hole(s) constrains where we apply paint, but it does not determine where we apply paint, as you admit here (“We can choose”) and you illustrate below.
IOWs, if we are defining a “definition-target” for a “function-target”, and if the “function-target” is made of concentric circles, we can choose the threshold as “the three innermost circles” only if the hit is in them, otherwise we must extend out target so that it includes the hit, and therefore we make it bigger. That’s why your point that we can make our target “arbitrarily small” is simply wrong.
Multiple issues here: 1 Never mind “concentric circles”, the target is only contiguous if we are painting in “function space”, not in “sequence-space”. You have no clue about its shape in either case. 2 As you freely admit, you are selecting the size of the target based on the observed bullet holes. This is TSS. 3 You CAN make the target arbitrarily small, subject to certain constraints, as you illustrate below.
IOWs, we can choose different “function-targets” for our “definition-target”, but we are constrained by the existing “function-targets”. And we can choose arbitrary thresholds in our definition, but we are constrained by the observed effect size.
Constrained, not determined. Thus TSS.
1) How do we choose the function? It’s simple. Provided that a) is satisfied (the function was already existing and was definable even before the observation), we can define ant function we like (obviously, we will chose some function which is implemented by the observed object). There is no problem here. Why? Because in my dFSCI procedure I have explicitly said that any observer can define any function for any object, including many different functions for the same object.
Thereby dramatically reducing the degree of constraint…
IOWs, it is sufficient to be able to find one function which, explicitly defined, implies dFSCI to infer design. So, we have complete liberty in choosing the target, because the target itself is not so important: what is important is the complexity linked to it.
Yes. And [my emphasis] this is very problematic.
2) How do we define the level of function necessary to consider it present? That is simple too. It’s what we always do in Fisherian inference. The level is: “at least the level of function observed in the object”.
If you are using Fisherian testing, that “complete liberty” is a death-knell for the validity of your test. As I have explained previously.(#556) when I said “Fisherian testing is also sensitive to the number of tests you might have performed. Imagine the jelly bean researchers had tested green first, then stopped…” and “If you look at your data, and then start doing Fisherian tests on it, you will produce garbage results.”
And, if we use the general principle of defining the threshold as “at least x”, where x is the observed effect size, we have no arbitrary choice in the definition of the threshold: we are completely constrained.
Which would be all fine and dandy if you had defined the function before you saw the data. Regarding my adenyl kinase example, you note:
The second definition is obviously a subset of the first, and it has explicit functional motivations
And so long as I can continue to generate “explicit functional motivations” (which is fairly easy), I can keep making my target smaller and smaller and smaller. Note that your willingness to move from definition A to definition B is an example of re-painting the target more narrowly in light of new information. Likewise your wonderful move from “ATP synthase” to “traditional ATP synthase”.
Now, the final challenge. Let’s go back to my original example of language. After all, your objections are methodological, and if they are true they must apply to language too. So, a challenge to you, in two parts. 1) Here is a 600 character sequence, which I have just generated by an online random character generator (no idea how good, truly random, it is, but I think it will do). So, here is the sequence: [seq snipped] Now, I ask you to: 1a) Define any “definition-target” you like for that sequence. Please remember, you must not use the specific contingency in the sequence (the specific characters).
As you know, I have never accepted that texts are a relevant analogy. I do not understand your “specific contingency in the sequence” requirement here, and it strikes me as problematic. Am I allowed to use the text to come up with my specification? If I am not allowed, then the analogy fails: the protein-specifier IS using the observed functionality to come up with the specification. If I am allowed, then the challenge becomes trivial. My specification takes the form “After decryption with algorithm X, the string becomes a passage in “good English” that describes [insert arbitrarily narrow specification of the passage’s content here]” Like I have always maintained, the meaning of texts is a useless analogy. The evolution of languages might be a more fruitful analogy. My take-home: because of the multi-dimensional nature of the “function-space”, attempts to apply paint after observing activities is fraught with problems of post-hoc invalidity. Additionally, you have absolutely no clue about the size of the target in “function-space”, nor the shape & size of the target in sequence-space. Finally, using the threshold “effect size at least as great as the observed effect size” does not get you away from the TSS problem (since you chose your function), but it leads to a whole new challenge in constructing your null. You would be better off using a “minimum selectable” threshold, but I quite understand your unwillingness to go there.DNA_Jock
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: No Shakespeare has not computed 1/3 he has “intuited” it after a calculation lasting long enough to satisfy his curiosity And a simple algorithm can calculate one-third to an arbitrary numbers of decimal places—just like Shakespeare. Indeed, while your Shakespeare intuits, an algorithm can determine that it is a repeating decimal, which means it knows the value of any arbitrary digit. Mung: Since you insist on being pedantic, where can I find a copy of Dawkins’ original program? Don't think it was ever published, however, the algorithm —which is what counts — was published by Dawkins in "The Blind Watchmaker". Mung: List of designed features: Population Size Mutation Rate “Genome” Length The character set The “fitness” function Those are called parameters. We can vary those to determine their relationship, and then we can actually measure those for real populations. Mung: Posting your version of the program would accomplish that, would it not? As we said, the algorithm is what matters, not the implementation. In any case, Weasel Evolution http://www.zachriel.com/weasel/ You can adjust the population size and the mutation rate. Notice that we track fitness setbacks and reversions. Here's the central bit of code (in VBA): Do While Best is not equal to Target Mother = Best ... For c = 1 To cx ... ... Child = Mother ... ... For t = 1 To tx ... ... ... If Rnd is less than MutRate Then ... ... ... ... Child = Left(Child, t - 1) & RandomLetter & Right(Child, tx - t) ... ... ... End If ... ... Next t ... If Fitness(Child) > Fitness(Best) Then Best = Child ... Next c ... collect data ... Loop (Had to change a few characters so it would display properly.) If the mutation rate is high or the population size is low, it will take longer to reach the target, if at all. The escape key will stop the program if it doesn't look like it is able to reach the target. gpuccio: I am absolutely convinced that the nature of search spaces and of functions is such that, with the growth of the search space, the complex functional spaces become inevitably so sparse that they evade any random search. That can be already demonstrated for language. Random search, but not necessarily for evolutionary search. Indeed, if you have an oracle that can recognize meaningful phrases, then an evolutionary algorithm can find long meaningful phrases. That would only be true if they were connected within sequence space, no matter how rare they might be.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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