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An attempt at computing dFSCI for English language

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In a recent post, I was challenged to offer examples of computation of dFSCI for a list of 4 objects for which I had inferred design.

One of the objects was a Shakespeare sonnet.

My answer was the following:

A Shakespeare sonnet. Alan’s comments about that are out of order. I don’t infer design because I know of Shakespeare, or because I am fascinated by the poetry (although I am). I infer design simply because this is a piece of language with perfect meaning in english (OK, ancient english).
Now, a Shakespeare sonnet is about 600 characters long. That corresponds to a search space of about 3000 bits. Now, I cannot really compute the target space for language, but I am assuming here that the number of 600 characters sequences which make good sense in english is lower than 2^2500, and therefore the functional complexity of a Shakespeare sonnet is higher than 500 bits, Dembski’s UPB. As I am aware of no simple algorithm which can generate english sonnets from single characters, I infer design. I am certain that this is not a false positive.

In the discussion, I admitted however that I had not really computed the target space in this case:

The only point is that I have not a simple way to measure the target space for English language, so I have taken a shortcut by choosing a long enough sequence, so that I am well sure that the target space /search space ratio is above 500 bits. As I have clearly explained in my post #400.
For proteins, I have methods to approximate a lower threshold for the target space. For language I have never tried, because it is not my field, but I am sure it can be done. We need a linguist (Piotr, where are you?).
That’s why I have chosen and over-generous length. Am I wrong? Well, just offer a false positive.
For language, it is easy to show that the functional complexity is bound to increase with the length of the sequence. That is IMO true also for proteins, but it is less intuitive.

That remains true. But I have reflected, and I thought that perhaps, even if I am not a linguist and not even a amthematician, I could try to define better quantitatively the target space in this case, or at least to find a reasonable higher threshold for it.

So, here is the result of my reasonings. Again, I am neither a linguist nor a mathematician, and I will happy to consider any comment, criticism or suggestion. If I have made errors in my computations, I am ready to apologize.

Let’s start from my functional definition: any text of 600 characters which has good meaning in English.

The search space for a random search where every character has the same probability, assuming an alphabet of 30 characters (letters, space, elementary punctuation) gives easily a search space of 30^600, that is 2^2944. IOWs 2944 bits.

OK.

Now, I make the following assumptions (more or less derived from a quick Internet search:

a) There are about 200,000 words in English

b) The average length of an English word is 5 characters.

I also make the easy assumption that a text which has good meaning in English is made of English words.

For a 600 character text, we can therefore assume an average number of words of 120 (600/5).

Now, we compute the possible combinations (with repetition) of 120 words from a pool of 200000. The result, if I am right, is: 2^1453. IOWs 1453 bits.

Now, obviously each of these combinations can have n! permutations, therefore each of them has 120! different permutation, that is 2^660. IOWs 660 bits.

So, multiplying the total number of word combinations with repetitions by the total number of permutations for each combination, we have:

2^1453 * 2^660 = 2^2113

IOWs, 2113 bits.

What is this number? It is the total number of sequences of 120 words that we can derive from a pool of 200000 English words. Or at least, a good approximation of that number.

It’s a big number.

Now, the important concept: in that number are certainly included all the sequences of 600 characters which have good meaning in English. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine sequences that have good meaning in English and are not made of correct English words.

And the important question: how many of those sequences have good meaning in English? I have no idea. But anyone will agree that it must be only a small subset.

So, I believe that we can say that 2^2113 is a higher threshold for out target space of sequences of 600 characters which have a good meaning in English. And, certainly, a very generous higher threshold.

Well, if we take that number as a measure of our target space, what is the functional information in a sequence of 600 characters which has good meaning in English?

It’s easy: the ratio between target space and search space:

2^2113 / 2^ 2944 = 2^-831. IOWs, taking -log2, 831 bits of functional information. (Thank you to drc466 for the kind correction here)

So, if we consider as a measure of our functional space a number which is certainly an extremely overestimated higher threshold for the real value, still our dFSI is over 800 bits.

Let’s go back to my initial statement:

Now, a Shakespeare sonnet is about 600 characters long. That corresponds to a search space of about 3000 bits. Now, I cannot really compute the target space for language, but I am assuming here that the number of 600 characters sequences which make good sense in english is lower than 2^2500, and therefore the functional complexity of a Shakespeare sonnet is higher than 500 bits, Dembski’s UPB. As I am aware of no simple algorithm which can generate english sonnets from single characters, I infer design. I am certain that this is not a false positive.

Was I wrong? You decide.

By the way, another important result is that if I make the same computation for a 300 character string, the dFSI value is 416 bits. That is a very clear demonstration that, in language, dFSI is bound to increase with the length of the string.

Comments
Zac says That is not how human memory works. I say the title of the paper is "Is Consciousness Computable" not "Is human memory computable?" Here comes the frustration again. Break time Peacefifthmonarchyman
November 22, 2014
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Zac says Pi is computable. Again for probably the 7th time by "not computable" I mean not able to be produced by finite Turing machine in a finite time. You can use an algorithm to calculate Pi but the program will never halt. You said, Shakespeare yesterday has different memories than Shakespeare today. I say, Yes but he is the very same Shakespeare yesterday and today. To quote gpuccio yet again. Consciousness is unitary, because the I which perceives is always the same subject. The things it perceives vary a lot, but it is the same subject who perceives them. You say, That is directly contrary to the proof you cited. Did you read the paper? I say, please don't feign obtuseness. What I'm saying is perfectly consistent with the paper's proof that you don't see that might be due to my poor explanation skills but I doubt it peacefifthmonarchyman
November 22, 2014
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Er. Pi is computable.Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Circles are real things and they are not computable Huh? Do you mean pi? Pi is computable?Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Suppose you developed a emulator that has all of Shakespeare’s memories except one. Would the emulator be Shakespeare? Of course not that is the point the authors are trying to make. Shakespeare yesterday has different memories than Shakespeare today. We won't say fewer because human memory is not lossless, as assumed in the paper you cited which defined an integrating function as “the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z'), when z and z' are close”. That is not how human memory works. fifthmonarchyman: Quite the contrary it is the proof!!!! That is directly contrary to the proof you cited. Did you read the paper?Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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Zac said, They define integrating function such that “the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z?), when z and z? are close”, which is exactly contrary to how people learn and developing understanding. I say, The paper is discussing unitary consciousness, the "I" at the center of it all. Suppose you developed a emulator that has all of Shakespeare's memories except one. Would the emulator be Shakespeare? Of course not that is the point the authors are trying to make. This contention is very intuitive We all know it to be true!! You say, When people look at something circular, they don’t memorize every detail. They note it is a circle, and take note of a few distinctions. They generalize it, which defeats the proof the paper provides. I say, Quite the contrary it is the proof!!!! If you show me an object that is generally circular and claim it is an "ideal" circle I will laugh and point out all the things in the object that don't conform to what a circle is. "Ideal" Circles are real things and they are not computable, That is the point peacefifthmonarchyman
November 22, 2014
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Mung: It shows that guided mutation plus guided selection is not equivalent to a random search. The mutations are not guided, but random. Not sure that adding "guided" to selection adds anything. The strings are selected based on their fit to the target. If we scrambled all the letters each time, we would also be looking for a fit to the target. The difference between the two algorithms is what is of interest.Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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Zachriel, It shows that guided mutation plus guided selection is not equivalent to a random search. Whoever thought otherwise?Mung
November 22, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: If a thing is not computable it necessarily contains infinite Kolmogorov complexity. We already pointed out several problems with their proofs. They define integrating function such that "the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z?), when z and z? are close", which is exactly contrary to how people learn and developing understanding. "An integrating function’s output is such that the information of its two (or more) inputs is completely integrated." But we know from simple observation that people integrate information incompletely. In other words, information is always lost during the process of learning. People integrate new knowledge within the parameters of what they already know. fifthmonarchyman: It is a safe bet that we will never agree philosophically after all Plato wrote about this almost 2500 years ago and there are still people in the cave who aren’t convinced that the forms actually exist. Good example. When people look at something circular, they don't memorize every detail. They note it is a circle, and take note of a few distinctions. They generalize it, which defeats the proof the paper provides.Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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Zac says, Nor do we see where it claims infinite information. I say If a thing is not computable it necessarily contains infinite Kolmogorov complexity. This is not rocket science. Zac says, integration does not imply perfect integration. I say, It is a safe bet that we will never agree philosophically after all Plato wrote about this almost 2500 years ago and there are still people in the cave who aren't convinced that the forms actually exist. The cool thing is that ID and IIT have provided a scientific way forward. If you believe that IC can be computed all you have to do is program an algorithm plug it into my "game" and see if it infallibly fools the observer. let the science begin peacefifthmonarchyman
November 22, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: I concede that if unitary consciousnesses (or any IC) does not in fact exist then it is no problem for algorithms. That wasn't the point we raised. Nor do we see where it claims infinite information. fifthmonarchyman: But we all know that unitary consciousness (IC)exists!!!! Neurologists are not so sure as to the degree of integration. fifthmonarchyman: Consciousness is unitary, because the I which perceives is always the same subject. 'No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.' — Heraclitus In any case, integration does not imply perfect integration. The proofs provided assume perfection in integration and memory, both of which are contradicted by the evidence.Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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ZAC, I think we have already covered this. I concede that if unitary consciousnesses (or any IC) does not in fact exist then it is no problem for algorithms. But we all know that unitary consciousness (IC)exists!!!! gpuccio had a knock out argument way back at 543 it is worth re-posting in full. quote: Consciousness is unitary, because the I which perceives is always the same subject. The things it perceives vary a lot, but it is the same subject who perceives them. Reality check: would you be indifferent if you could know in advance that in 3 years you will suffer? No. Because you know well that it will be you to suffer. It’s not important that in the meantime your personality could be different, that you can forget many things that are important for you today, and so on. You know that it is you who will be ther. The same subject. On the other hand, we are all too ready to be indifferent to the suffering of perfect strangers (too much, I would say). If consciousness were only a bunch of information which constantly changes, that unity of the I, which is the reason itself of all that we do, would make no sense. end quote: If that does not convince you I have other arguments let me know peacefifthmonarchyman
November 22, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.0126 Thanks. Several problems with the assumptions in the paper. First, they assume memory is lossless, which, gee whiz, is obviously not the case. Second, while there is certainly integration in how the brain works, it's not perfect integration. With regards to compression; even given perfect compression, it doesn't mean new information can't be integrated. You don't use surgery, you use learning. Furthermore, any finite digital system is computable as there is a limit to the number of possible states. However, an analog neural net can exhibit non-computable behavior if its parameters are given infinite precision. Nothing magical about that whatsoever. Here's a simple model of the brain that is computable. 1. Think about a problem. 2. If you find a solution, utter it. 3. If you don't find a solution, make an educated guess. 4. If the guess turns out wrong, say "Oops!" End.Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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zac asks Huh? How do you prove that? If the proof is somewhere in the 600+ comments, a link will do. Thanks. I answer, http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.0126 Your welcome ;-) Peacefifthmonarchyman
November 22, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Of course all the while I would be content with the notion that no mater how low the Kolmogorov complexity in the individual parts of an IC system turn out to be the complexity of the whole is still mathematically proven to be infinite. Huh? How do you prove that? If the proof is somewhere in the 600+ comments, a link will do. Thanks. Mung: Dawkins designed a program in which the outcome was inevitable. Actually, it's not inevitable. It depends on population size and mutation rate. Mung: But it was not designed to show how real evolution works. So what was the point? It shows that mutation plus selection is not equivalent to a random search.Zachriel
November 22, 2014
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Me_Think:
He [Dawkins] wrote a program to generate the sentence from alphabets and space. It took 40 generations to get the sentence by ‘Natural Selection’ algorithm.
Dawkins designed a program in which the outcome was inevitable. Whether the algorithm he employed was "a natural selection algorithm" is disputed. Why did he not choose a more complex phrase? Me_Think:
He [Dawkins] also noted that the “experiment is not intended to show how real evolution works, but does illustrate the advantages gained by a selection mechanism in an evolutionary process”. He didn’t say his program detects design.
The experiment was intended. It was designed. But it was not designed to show how real evolution works. So what was the point? Me_Think:
He [Dawkins] also noted that the “experiment is not intended to show how real evolution works, but does illustrate the advantages gained by a DESIGNED selection mechanism in a DESIGNED evolutionary process”.
Fixed it for you. Me_Think:
He [Dawkins] also noted that the “experiment is not intended to show how real evolution works, but does illustrate the advantages gained by a selection mechanism in an evolutionary process”. He didn’t say his program detects design.
The point Dawkins is trying to make is that "unguided evolution" can produce "the appearance of design." It follows that there is a way to detect design. Dawkins set the "design threshold" incredibly low. Not credible.Mung
November 21, 2014
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Joe:
CSI is Shannon-like.
Since the memory system of the model I use is based on a binary RAM chip: Shannon works fine for final numbers. One thing to remember though is RAM Data actions are amino acid sequences, not 2 bit per letter A,C,G & T bases that can be (sensory molecule) controlled to produce a variety of products. Also the codons may encode Confidence levels this way. Larry Moran conveniently provided the data needed to help account for each DNA-RAM Data location needing to store both a gene region confidence level and protein sequence, otherwise the system would not be intelligent and control when guesses are needed and taken (as in the Darwinian model): http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2014/08/another-stupid-prediction-by.html?showComment=1409173698672#c7730844542336163086Gary S. Gaulin
November 21, 2014
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DNA_Jock said which makes your subtracting one Kolmogorov complexity from another challenging, to say the least. I say, Not sure what you are getting at here. It must be my "slim connection to reality" ;-). I would think that the contingency of my measure would make my approach more scientific than other methods. I could posit a hypothesis that the bacterial flagellum exhibited at least (X bits) + Phi information. You could counter that it actually contained (X bits-1) + Phi. We could then test our various claims. To falsify my hypothesis you would just have to produce a simpler algorithm, If you were feeling really bold you could challenge the claim that the BF contained integrated information (Phi) at all. Both sides would be happy. Bring on the science!!!! Of course all the while I would be content with the notion that no mater how low the Kolmogorov complexity in the individual parts of an IC system turn out to be the complexity of the whole is still mathematically proven to be infinite. ;-) The main reason that measuring the information in the individual pieces is important is because it's possible that very simple IC structures could come about by chance. If the individual parts have enough complexity we can rule out random processes. This is where gpuccio's metric might be a better way forward. Kolmogorov complexity in the individual parts or Functional complexity seem to be mysteriously equivalent. either one can serve as the C in CSI, On the other hand Phi is a better S. I'm open to correction though. Peacefifthmonarchyman
November 21, 2014
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CSI is Shannon-like.Joe
November 21, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman:
my calculation is forvever contingent on whether I have actually found the shortest algorithm for each part when the fact is we may never know if there is a shorter one out there somewhere
That is my understanding too, which makes your subtracting one Kolmogorov complexity from another challenging, to say the least. Phi looks to me like a Shannon-like measure of information, while CSI is, err...Bueller? Bueller?DNA_Jock
November 21, 2014
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Dionisio:
Gary S. Gatlin and fifthmonarchyman Have read some of your interesting comments. Thank you for writing them. When you take a break from your ongoing discussion on the measuring of the dFSCI of individual strings, could you comment on how to explain that the different proteins have to be at the right time, in the appropriate location, in the correct amounts? And that there are gazillion different combinations of those protein stories, scenarios, choreographies and orchestrations? And the proven fact that minor variations of the arrangements may cause defects and problems? How can we explain all that? How can we measure it? Any idea? Thank you! :)
Thanks for the compliment, Dionisio. Close enough on the spelling! That is all a part of memory Addressing, which in a cell nucleus is arranged in (look up online and see theory for Molecular Intelligence) "chromosome territories" that connect from one to another in a circuit where sensory molecules flow from place to place (not diffuse through entire cell as was once thought). This is caused by complex self-organization, from the way individual molecules always self-assemble according to surrounding conditions. To go into more detail than that right now I will need a break from my day job. But I will have more time this weekend, in case you have more questions. That was a good one.Gary S. Gaulin
November 21, 2014
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Dang I keep forgetting stuff my calculation is forvever contingent on whether I have actually found the shortest algorithm for each part when the fact is we may never know if there is a shorter one out there somewhere What we do know however is that the total Phi/CSI/Kolmogorov complexity is infinite no matter what the complexity of the individual parts turns out to be peacefifthmonarchyman
November 21, 2014
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Me-thinks says Interesting can you show how you calculate the flagellum complexity ? Do you convert CSI to Kolmogorov complexity ? I say, That is what I'm here for. I'm trying to get the calculation straight in my head. So far I 1) Represent a artifact numerically 2) build an algorithm for each individual part 3) measure the Kolmogorov complexity in each of those algorithms. That only gives me a low ball number X. Now I can say the Phi/CSI/Kolmogorov complexity in the artifact is greater than X but that is as far as I can take it right now. I'm definitely enjoying the challenge though. It's been tons of fun peacefifthmonarchyman
November 21, 2014
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Let me give another example Take the conscious individual known as Shakespeare. Suppose I deconstruct all of his memories and proclivities and measure the information content in each of those separately I will have a finite amount of information. Next suppose I add all those numbers together. The information in Shakespeare is greater still because His consciousness is unitary. It turns out that that additional information is infinite when measured as Kolmogorov complexity. Shakespeare Is IC/He contains integrated information Phi. That is why Zac's Shakespeare emulator is doomed. You can't compute Shakespeare or the bacterial flagellum algorithmically. Now in one sense Shakespeare has more integrated information than the bacterial flagellum but this simply because he contains more parts. In another profound sense both have the same Phi (infinity plus 7) is equivalent to (infinity plus 7 million). I know I'm belaboring this point but this is a big deal and I'm hoping you will understand me Peacefifthmonarchyman
November 21, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman @ 663
If I disassemble each of it’s various parts and measure the complexity of each part individually I find I have a finite amount of information present in each one. If I add up the total information in each of those parts the bacterial flagellum as a whole has more information.That is what we mean when we say that it is IC It turns out that this quantity of additional information (phi) is infinite when measured as Kolmogorov complexity.
Interesting can you show how you calculate the flagellum complexity ? Do you convert CSI to Kolmogorov complexity ?Me_Think
November 21, 2014
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Me thinks said I am lost. How can a reminder be infinite if you are subtracting from a finite number? I say who said the complexity in the original string was finite? The whole point of my "game" is to show that the original string contains infinite Kolmogorov complexity. Each of the components of the string on the other hand contain a finite amount of Kolmogorov complexity. If you subtract these finite amounts of complexity from the infinite complexity in the whole you are still left with infinite complexity. That is precisely what I mean when I say the string in noncomputable I hope that helps. Let me use a practical example to illustrate Take the bacterial flagellum. If I disassemble each of it's various parts and measure the complexity of each part individually I find I have a finite amount of information present in each one. If I add up the total information in each of those parts the bacterial flagellum as a whole has more information.That is what we mean when we say that it is IC It turns out that this quantity of additional information (phi) is infinite when measured as Kolmogorov complexity. This is a profound insight. Please think it over and let me know if I need to clarify further Peacefifthmonarchyman
November 21, 2014
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5th @ 661 I am lost. How can a reminder be infinite if you are subtracting from a finite number?Me_Think
November 20, 2014
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DNA_Jock said I’m sorry 5mm, but your connection to reality is slim, at best. I say Understood, Sorry you feel that way. Hope you find the sanity of others here more to your liking I appreciate your patience. Me_Think says, If Phi doesn’t differ with components of a system, what is the point of measuring it in different systems? I say, You don't measure Phi in different systems. You measure the Kolmogorov complexity in the individual parts of a system and subtract that from the total. If the remainder is infinite you have an IC system (Phi). At least that is what I'm attempting to do. peacefifthmonarchyman
November 20, 2014
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"Let's call the whole thing off" I'm sorry 5mm, but your connection to reality is slim, at best. :)DNA_Jock
November 20, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman @ 655,
[this is for context] Phi is a simply a constant that corresponds to the amount of information that exists in a system over and above the information contained in the sum of it’s components. [end context] I say, Yes apparently!!!! it equals infinite Kolmogorov complexity in all system that are IC.
If Phi doesn't differ with components of a system, what is the point of measuring it in different systems?Me_Think
November 20, 2014
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