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An attempt at computing dFSCI for English language

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In a recent post, I was challenged to offer examples of computation of dFSCI for a list of 4 objects for which I had inferred design.

One of the objects was a Shakespeare sonnet.

My answer was the following:

A Shakespeare sonnet. Alan’s comments about that are out of order. I don’t infer design because I know of Shakespeare, or because I am fascinated by the poetry (although I am). I infer design simply because this is a piece of language with perfect meaning in english (OK, ancient english).
Now, a Shakespeare sonnet is about 600 characters long. That corresponds to a search space of about 3000 bits. Now, I cannot really compute the target space for language, but I am assuming here that the number of 600 characters sequences which make good sense in english is lower than 2^2500, and therefore the functional complexity of a Shakespeare sonnet is higher than 500 bits, Dembski’s UPB. As I am aware of no simple algorithm which can generate english sonnets from single characters, I infer design. I am certain that this is not a false positive.

In the discussion, I admitted however that I had not really computed the target space in this case:

The only point is that I have not a simple way to measure the target space for English language, so I have taken a shortcut by choosing a long enough sequence, so that I am well sure that the target space /search space ratio is above 500 bits. As I have clearly explained in my post #400.
For proteins, I have methods to approximate a lower threshold for the target space. For language I have never tried, because it is not my field, but I am sure it can be done. We need a linguist (Piotr, where are you?).
That’s why I have chosen and over-generous length. Am I wrong? Well, just offer a false positive.
For language, it is easy to show that the functional complexity is bound to increase with the length of the sequence. That is IMO true also for proteins, but it is less intuitive.

That remains true. But I have reflected, and I thought that perhaps, even if I am not a linguist and not even a amthematician, I could try to define better quantitatively the target space in this case, or at least to find a reasonable higher threshold for it.

So, here is the result of my reasonings. Again, I am neither a linguist nor a mathematician, and I will happy to consider any comment, criticism or suggestion. If I have made errors in my computations, I am ready to apologize.

Let’s start from my functional definition: any text of 600 characters which has good meaning in English.

The search space for a random search where every character has the same probability, assuming an alphabet of 30 characters (letters, space, elementary punctuation) gives easily a search space of 30^600, that is 2^2944. IOWs 2944 bits.

OK.

Now, I make the following assumptions (more or less derived from a quick Internet search:

a) There are about 200,000 words in English

b) The average length of an English word is 5 characters.

I also make the easy assumption that a text which has good meaning in English is made of English words.

For a 600 character text, we can therefore assume an average number of words of 120 (600/5).

Now, we compute the possible combinations (with repetition) of 120 words from a pool of 200000. The result, if I am right, is: 2^1453. IOWs 1453 bits.

Now, obviously each of these combinations can have n! permutations, therefore each of them has 120! different permutation, that is 2^660. IOWs 660 bits.

So, multiplying the total number of word combinations with repetitions by the total number of permutations for each combination, we have:

2^1453 * 2^660 = 2^2113

IOWs, 2113 bits.

What is this number? It is the total number of sequences of 120 words that we can derive from a pool of 200000 English words. Or at least, a good approximation of that number.

It’s a big number.

Now, the important concept: in that number are certainly included all the sequences of 600 characters which have good meaning in English. Indeed, it is difficult to imagine sequences that have good meaning in English and are not made of correct English words.

And the important question: how many of those sequences have good meaning in English? I have no idea. But anyone will agree that it must be only a small subset.

So, I believe that we can say that 2^2113 is a higher threshold for out target space of sequences of 600 characters which have a good meaning in English. And, certainly, a very generous higher threshold.

Well, if we take that number as a measure of our target space, what is the functional information in a sequence of 600 characters which has good meaning in English?

It’s easy: the ratio between target space and search space:

2^2113 / 2^ 2944 = 2^-831. IOWs, taking -log2, 831 bits of functional information. (Thank you to drc466 for the kind correction here)

So, if we consider as a measure of our functional space a number which is certainly an extremely overestimated higher threshold for the real value, still our dFSI is over 800 bits.

Let’s go back to my initial statement:

Now, a Shakespeare sonnet is about 600 characters long. That corresponds to a search space of about 3000 bits. Now, I cannot really compute the target space for language, but I am assuming here that the number of 600 characters sequences which make good sense in english is lower than 2^2500, and therefore the functional complexity of a Shakespeare sonnet is higher than 500 bits, Dembski’s UPB. As I am aware of no simple algorithm which can generate english sonnets from single characters, I infer design. I am certain that this is not a false positive.

Was I wrong? You decide.

By the way, another important result is that if I make the same computation for a 300 character string, the dFSI value is 416 bits. That is a very clear demonstration that, in language, dFSI is bound to increase with the length of the string.

Comments
Learned Hand: "Just to clarify, I think my underlying point was that your version of CSI differs from Dembski’s (inter alia) in that you admit the possibility of false positives." I certainly admit the logical possibility of false positives. But I am rather confident that they will never be empirically found. I am not sure that Dembski considers false positives logically excluded. If that is the case, I disagree. My argument is empirical, not logical. "it’s a smorgasbord" It is a fundamental concept, which can be approached in different ways. It's called science.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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Mung: Perhaps you’d like to post your own version of the program that eliminates the designed aspects? Zachriel: Be happy to, but first let’s resolve you misunderstanding of how the program works. Since you insist on being pedantic, where can I find a copy of Dawkins' original program? I'm attempting to make what I think are reasonable assumptions about the program. If there's a specific version of it out there somewhere you think I ought to be looking at I'd be more than happy to do so. You also as much as admitted that the population size was designed as well. Let's not let that one slip by either. Let's review: Mung: Dawkins designed a program in which the outcome was inevitable. Zachriel: Actually, it’s not inevitable. It depends on population size and mutation rate. And I'm the one playing word games? Are you claiming that in different runs of Dawkins program the mutation rate and population sizes were changed in such a way that the target phrase might never have been attained and Dawkins only chose to publish the one in which it did actually work? List of designed features: Population Size Mutation Rate "Genome" Length The character set The "fitness" function And probably more, but that's a start. Mung: Perhaps you’d like to post your own version of the program that eliminates the designed aspects? Zachriel: Be happy to, but first let’s resolve you misunderstanding of how the program works. Posting your version of the program would accomplish that, would it not? You could post it in increments.Mung
November 23, 2014
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Also, you seem to subscribe to Dembski’s claim that CSI (whether of the Dembski, KF, gpuccio, or now Arrington flavors) cannot generate a false positive. But if the calculation is based explicitly on the state of your knowledge, won’t it generate a false positive whenever you incorrectly believe that no non-design origin is feasible?
The fact that the theory could be falsified by some false positive in the future (for example, by discovering hidden algorithms, at present completely unknown and unforeseeable, which can generate functional complexity) is indeed one of its merits: it simply means that it is a scientific theory, fully falsifiable empirically. Popper would be happy of that.
Just to clarify, I think my underlying point was that your version of CSI differs from Dembski's (inter alia) in that you admit the possibility of false positives. I think that makes it more realistic, if no more useful. And I think it's another strike against the concept of CSI as a coherent, cohesive, strong idea--the more we discuss it, the more it fragments into various different subspecies with different applications. Some are (supposedly) immune to false positives, some aren't, some are useful for design detection, some aren't, some include P(T|H), some don't.... it's a smorgasbord.Learned Hand
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: You have given a lot of interesting material, up to your post #711 where you give some detail of you game. I need some time to digest it all. Please, go on. It's very interesting.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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Zac said, On the one hand you say one-third is non-computable, then you say Shakespeare has computed it when he is subjectively satisfied with the precision. I say, No Shakespeare has not computed 1/3 he has "intuited" it after a calculation lasting long enough to satisfy his curiosity peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman at #651: Another interesting link! Thank you. :)gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman at #643: "When the Kolmogorov complexity in the algorithm exceeds the complexity in the original string you can infer a design." Exactly. In my dFSCI procedure, I say that we must use the Kolmogorov complexity only if the outcome we observe can be explained by an algorithm which is simpler than the outcome itself. Then, the algorithm can be considered as a "compression" of the outcome: IOWs, it is easier for the algorithm to be generated by a random search than for the outcome. But, if the algorithm has still sufficient functional complexity, we can infer design just the same: for the algorithm, if not for the outcome. I usually illustrate that with the example of an algorithm which can compute the decimal digits of pi. Now, the algorithm is certainly more complex than, say, 3.14. But, if we have the first n digits of pi, and n is very big, maybe the algorithm then is simpler than the output. In that case, the true complexity of the output becomes the complexity of the algorithm, IOWs we take the Kolmogorov complexity instead of the "direct" complexity.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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Me_think says What is the ‘game’ you keep referring to ? I say I know it's an extremely long thread and no one could be expected at this late date to go back through it all. so here goes At a very high level I modified the game described here http://arxiv.org/abs/1002.4592 to take any data string we choose to plug in to it. the process is as follows 1) represent a designed artifact numerically 2) Write an algorithm to reproduce that numeric representation sufficiently enough to fool an observer infallibly. With out borrowing information from the original string 3) plug it in and test to see if you succeeded Right now the game exists only as a crudely coded excel sheet. But repeated trials with different data strings shows it works and supports my position so far. I hoping that a programer friend will help me to convert it to a shareable app. stay tuned peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman at #639: Interesting link!gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchymanNovember at #631:
gpuccio, I have a practical question about function as a specification. I run a string that represents production throughputs from an assembly line through my game. I discover a complex pattern with a low probability. Later I discover that the patten is caused by the ebb and flow of production surrounding break times. Production goes up at times when folks are focused on the machine and down when they are not. Leaving aside the question of whether the pattern meets the complexity threshold. Is the specification of fluctuations related to attention functional? Is it post hoc? peace
Not sure that I understand the details of your game. I will see if you give them in the following posts. :)gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Yes and the things I forget are not a part of me. In other words I’m still the exact same unitary me after I forget and before I had the experience in the first place. Again that is contrary to your "proof" which is based on lossless integration of information. fifthmonarchyman: Are you really so sure that the authors are so blatantly stupid? We never said they were stupid. We said they made assumptions contrary to known understanding of human cognition. fifthmonarchyman: Is it even possible that you are misunderstanding the paper? We know how to read a proof, but sure, we could be mistaken. But you haven't shown how. Indeed, your comments seem in contradiction to the paper. fifthmonarchyman: My definition is merely a more constrained version of the mathematical definition. No, it's not more constrained, but less constrained. Furthermore, it's not the same usage as in the very paper you cite as justification. Misusing an existing term just leads to confusion. fifthmonarchyman: The standard definition leaves room for the oracle as part of the algorithm. For clarity I simply remove that possibility No, you do far more than that. You make one-third "non-computable", which has nothing to do with hypercomputation. fifthmonarchyman: If you assume immortality he can Then so can a Turing machine. fifthmonarchyman: Seriously Shakespeare precisely because he is not-computable can decide that he has calculated long enough for his own subjective purposes. Computable means we can calculate an arbitrary nth digit in finite time. One-third and pi are both computable numbers. (There's an interesting way to calculate arbitrary digits of pi without calculating the full expansion of pi based on chaos theory. See Bailey, Borwein & Plouffe, On the rapid computation of various polylogarithmic constants, Mathematics of Computation 1997.) fifthmonarchyman: If you think you can produce these things algorithmically have at it I’ll plug it into my game and see if it fools the observer infallibly. You haven't provided a coherent test. On the one hand you say one-third is non-computable, then you say Shakespeare has computed it when he is subjectively satisfied with the precision.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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Learned Hand at #603:
Also, you seem to subscribe to Dembski’s claim that CSI (whether of the Dembski, KF, gpuccio, or now Arrington flavors) cannot generate a false positive. But if the calculation is based explicitly on the state of your knowledge, won’t it generate a false positive whenever you incorrectly believe that no non-design origin is feasible?
The fact that the theory could be falsified by some false positive in the future (for example, by discovering hidden algorithms, at present completely unknown and unforeseeable, which can generate functional complexity) is indeed one of its merits: it simply means that it is a scientific theory, fully falsifiable empirically. Popper would be happy of that. For now, as far as no such falsification has ever been offered, it remains the best explanation in town. Moreover, I am absolutely convinced that the nature of search spaces and of functions is such that, with the growth of the search space, the complex functional spaces become inevitably so sparse that they evade any random search. That can be already demonstrated for language. For the protein space, there are still difficulties because there are many things about which we have not enough information, but I am confident that the situation is the same. Moreover, I am absolutely convinced that no algorithm (simpler than the output) can generate both descriptive information (language) and prescriptive information (function) which is really complex. I am confident that this too will be demonstrated for all search spaces and functional spaces. In the meantime, in the absence of any falsification, the empirical validity of the procedure to detect design wherever it can be validated remains true. IOWs, for complex functional information design remains the best explanation in town.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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Dionisio: I am still not sure that I understand exactly Gary S. Gaulin's position. I have downloaded his 40+ pages document from his site, but I could not yet read it all (it is not an easy read). However, while I find some of his concepts interesting, for example the concepts of different "levels" of intelligence, you know what my position is: no consciousness = no intelligence and no design.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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I’m fairly certain we will never come to an agreement on this philosophically, You just don’t have a place in your worldview for the Platonic forms that exist outside the cave.
If I may butt in, Yes, It is philosophical, so I don't see what you mean by computing something philosophical. What is the 'game' you keep referring to ?Me_Think
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman, Dionisio and all the others: I apologize, but the discussion about post-specifications, and my little free time, have prevented me from following with the due attention the parallel debate here, which is extremely interesting. I will try to catch up, as well as I can. :)gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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ZAc said, Yet, you keep forgetting things, even things from your long term memory. I say, Yes and the things I forget are not a part of me. In other words I'm still the exact same unitary me after I forget and before I had the experience in the first place. You say, Everything we know about cognition indicates that the assumptions in the paper you cite are faulty. I say, Are you really so sure that the authors are so blatantly stupid? Is it even possible that you are misunderstanding the paper? You say, And your misuse of the term non-computable only adds to your confusion. I say, My definition is merely a more constrained version of the mathematical definition. The standard definition leaves room for the oracle as part of the algorithm. For clarity I simply remove that possibility you say Shakespeare can’t calculate one-third to the last decimal place either. I say, If you assume immortality he can ;-) Seriously Shakespeare precisely because he is not-computable can decide that he has calculated long enough for his own subjective purposes. Zac I'm fairly certain we will never come to an agreement on this philosophically, You just don't have a place in your worldview for the Platonic forms that exist outside the cave. The good news is we now after 2500 years have a way forward. If you think you can produce these things algorithmically have at it I'll plug it into my game and see if it fools the observer infallibly. Or if you like have a go at gpuccio's mirror image challenge. let the science begin peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: Yes, and the experience that is lost is not integrated into the information that is the unitary consciousness known as Fifthmonarchyman!!!! Yet, you keep forgetting things, even things from your long term memory. Everything we know about cognition indicates that the assumptions in the paper you cite are faulty. And your misuse of the term non-computable only adds to your confusion.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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Yes, and the experience that is lost is not integrated into the information that is the unitary consciousness known as Fifthmonarchyman!!!!
There is short term and long term memory, so even memories which are stored need not be stored for long. Is there a short term integrated information and long term integrated information ?Me_Think
November 23, 2014
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ZAc says. There is a huge amount of loss between your experience and your consciousness. I say, Yes, and the experience that is lost is not integrated into the information that is the unitary consciousness known as Fifthmonarchyman!!!! More later, peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: exactly! an algorithm can not compute 1/3 exactly. You can build an algorithm to approximate 1/3 but it will grind on forever with out a non-computable Turing Oracle directly or indirectly yelling STOP here. So most of the rational numbers are not "computable". That's not what the word means, and it's not how it is used in the paper you cited. fifthmonarchyman: That is exactly the reason why your Shakespeare emulator is doomed. Shakespeare can't calculate one-third to the last decimal place either. fifthmonarchyman: No the paper assumes lossless information ingratiation. My memory may be lossy my conscious unitary self is lossless. Lossless information integration means lossless information. The input is preserved in its entirety. fifthmonarchyman: Do you really think the paper would assume something that is obviously false or is it possible that you have misunderstood it? They are making a claim that is demonstrably contrary to how human consciousness works. fifthmonarchyman: The paper is not about how people learn it is about how consciousness arises (information is integrated). The paper is clear. When they say “the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z’), when z and z’ are close”, they are making a claim that is demonstrably contrary to how human consciousness works. fifthmonarchyman: Actually they define it as lossless integrated information to be precise. Which is demonstrably contrary to how human consciousness works. fifthmonarchyman: According to the paper I am simply the sum total of all my experiences and proclivities compressed losslessly into a unified conscious whole. Which is clearly not the case. There is a huge amount of loss between your experience and your consciousness.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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Zac Maybe another illustration will help. Suppose I build a Zachriel emulator that has all your memories and proclivities combined in a grand but lossy algorithm. Would I be ethically justified if I decided to deactivate the supposedly redundant original with a bullet to the brain? Think about it peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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ZAC says By your definition, one-third is non-computable. I say, exactly! an algorithm can not compute 1/3 exactly. You can build an algorithm to approximate 1/3 but it will grind on forever with out a non-computable Turing Oracle directly or indirectly yelling STOP here. That is exactly the reason why your Shakespeare emulator is doomed. you say, The paper assumes lossless memory, which is contrary to fact. I say, No the paper assumes lossless information ingratiation. My memory may be lossy my conscious unitary self is lossless. That description precisely conform to my own subjective experience. You may have a different experience but I doubt it. Think about it for a minute Zac. Do you really think the paper would assume something that is obviously false or is it possible that you have misunderstood it? YOu say, It also assume “the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z’), when z and z’ are close”, which is directly contrary to how people learn. I say The paper is not about how people learn it is about how consciousness arises (information is integrated). Please try to grasp this it is a powerful insight. zac says, They define consciousness as integrated information. I say, Actually they define it as lossless integrated information to be precise. According to the paper I am simply the sum total of all my experiences and proclivities compressed losslessly into a unified conscious whole. Can you grasp that? peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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A targeted search is an intelligent design mechanism. Zachriel doesn't understand this and that causes problems with the discussion.Joe
November 23, 2014
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Z: Selections are made from the random mutations. To be more precise, selection is made on the entire string only, with strings more closely resembling the target making it to the next generation.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: by “not computable” I mean not able to be produced by finite Turing machine in a finite time. That's not what it means. It means you can't compute an arbitrary nth digit in finite time. By your definition, one-third is non-computable. fifthmonarchyman: please don’t feign obtuseness. Please directly address the points we raised. The paper assumes lossless memory, which is contrary to fact. It also assume "the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z’), when z and z’ are close", which is directly contrary to how people learn. fifthmonarchyman: the title of the paper is “Is Consciousness Computable” not “Is human memory computable?” They define consciousness as integrated information. Zachriel: The mutations are not guided, but random. Mung: The two are mutually exclusive? By the usual definition. Mung: The mutations are guided, and you already admitted as such. Are you playing with words? The mutations are random. Selections are made from the random mutations. Mung: the mutations are guided in that they are selected from a specified set and inserted as a replacement at a specified location. That's not quite correct. Mutations are not inserted at specified locations, rather mutations can occur at any position, even those positions which already have the correct letter. Mung: Perhaps you’d like to post your own version of the program that eliminates the designed aspects? Be happy to, but first let's resolve you misunderstanding of how the program works.Zachriel
November 23, 2014
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gpuccio, Please, can you help me to understand the interesting concepts Gary S. Gaulin wrote to me? See post #690. Thank you. I noticed you have had a very interesting discussion with him, so perhaps you understand his point? I looked for the term "molecular intelligence" as per Gary's suggestion, but did not find the answer to my questions in post #690. However, maybe I looked in the wrong literature? You seem to have developed very practical skills to explain difficult things in easy to understand terms. Can you explain how this concept of 'molecular intelligence' explains how so many proteins are made available in the right places, in the required amounts, at the right time, for so many biological mechanisms, like the asymmetric mitotic (for example)? How are those mechanisms established and implemented to begin with? How did they evolve? Mile grazie mio caro Dottore! :)Dionisio
November 23, 2014
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gpuccio, Wow, Your challenge is the mirror image of my "game"! I'm not a professional mathematician but this sort of weird equivalence tells me we are on to something. peacefifthmonarchyman
November 23, 2014
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DNA_Jock at #646: I apologize for not answering earlier. I was rather busy. You say: “No. The wall (i.e. the set of all possible sequences, and their corresponding functions) existed before the bullet struck. ALL targets are human constructs.” Emphasis mine. So, you are admitting that the functions exist before. How we define them is a human construct. Well, that is exactly my point. You prefer to call "target" the human definition. I prefer to call "target" the existing function. What's the difference? The important point is: The target which already existed (the function" limits and constrains the human target (the definition of the function and of its level). That is my point. And that is where you are wrong. We can choose different "function-targets". We can define different functions which already existed. But we cannot invent a function. And we can define different thresholds for a function. But, as I said, we are limited by the observed effect size. We cannot make out threshold so high that the observed effect size is no more in the target. That is the foundation of the common practice of defining the rejection region for an effect size "at least x", where x is the observed effect size. IOWs, if we are defining a "definition-target" for a "function-target", and if the "function-target" is made of concentric circles, we can choose the threshold as "the three innermost circles" only if the hit is in them, otherwise we must extend out target so that it includes the hit, and therefore we make it bigger. That's why your point that we can make our target "arbitrarily small" is simply wrong. IOWs, we can choose different "function-targets" for our "definition-target", but we are constrained by the existing "function-targets". And we can choose arbitrary thresholds in our definition, but we are constrained by the observed effect size. Now, please look at my post #641:
1) How do we choose the function? It’s simple. Provided that a) is satisfied (the function was already existing and was definable even before the observation), we can define ant function we like (obviously, we will chose some function which is implemented by the observed object). There is no problem here. Why? Because in my dFSCI procedure I have explicitly said that any observer can define any function for any object, including many different functions for the same object. dFSCI is computed for the individual defined function. Any function implying dFSCI allows to infer design, if observed in an object. IOWs, it is sufficient to be able to find one function which, explicitly defined, implies dFSCI to infer design. So, we have complete liberty in choosing the target, because the target itself is not so important: what is important is the complexity linked to it. 2) How do we define the level of function necessary to consider it present? That is simple too. It’s what we always do in Fisherian inference. The level is: “at least the level of function observed in the object”.
So, it is true that we can choose different "function-targets", but it is equally true that what we are looking for is any target which has extremely high functional complexity. Any such target is fine. The important points are: a) It must correctly describe an existing "function-target". b) It must have extremely high functional complexity. And, if we use the general principle of defining the threshold as "at least x", where x is the observed effect size, we have no arbitrary choice in the definition of the threshold: we are completely constrained. So, your point that we can make any target and make it arbitrarily small is simply a fallacy. I will let to you to find a good name for it. :) If it were not a fallacy, it should be extremely easy to find false positives for my procedure: just paint a target on a random outcome, and make it arbitrarily small (see my final challenge). You say: "Example # 2 is a killer: Adenyl kinase catalyzes the reaction : 2ADP AMP + ATP It does NOT catalyze the reaction : 2 ADP 2 AMP + 2P If it did, that would be fatal. Literally." OK, so you have two different "definition-targets": a) Any enzyme which catalyzes the reaction : 2ADP AMP + ATP b) Any enzyme which catalyzes the reaction : 2ADP AMP + ATP and does NOT catalyze the reaction : 2 ADP 2 AMP + 2P The second definition is obviously a subset of the first, and it has explicit functional motivations (as you say, in a biological context, a) would include fatal objects). Please, note that in neither definition do we need any "range of Km’s" derived from the contingency of a specific molecule. They are independent functional definitions, both perfectly valid. The correct questions are: 1) Which is more useful in our model? The easy answer is b), for the reasons you yourself described. 2) Where is our hit? It is certainly in a), but is it also in b)? Yes, it is. So, we can certainly use b) as a good definition. But even if we had used a), and computed an extremely high dFSCI, a design inference could have been made just the same. Because, to be part of b), a molecule must be part of a). Just as a sequence has to be made of English words in order to have good meaning in English. The problem of ATP synthase requires a longer discussion, and I will not discuss it in detail in this post for brevity. Just a hint: my original argument was about two chains which are part of a bigger molecule. Those two chains, in themselves, have no ATP synthase activity. So, I had not detailed really well my "function definition", because at that level of discussion my focus was mainly on the "conservation/complexity" aspect. There is a problem of Irreducible Complexity here. Now, the final challenge. Let's go back to my original example of language. After all, your objections are methodological, and if they are true they must apply to language too. So, a challenge to you, in two parts. 1) Here is a 600 character sequence, which I have just generated by an online random character generator (no idea how good, truly random, it is, but I think it will do). So, here is the sequence: l.qvff..stscilrriegakbb oprzbdfbnguio.h odjjsvamrcxly mlbtihxqotillxqtifwfyalxc,vbjckobzdrjvyo.oo ,evitbhnwhyixjmyakripxjrylxcqebyeuprpipd,.yvtfbrl,qqqcuqqsmviuonqeyx eeyumkx, igzelxs hqpyriinyflyvpvblcrvbiljnk edhcnvycmikfwa,ghwuxspycpwn.mbqrcbcr w,iiqhwsd.. wcfn wuntehhj.y.sdweze.kjosyyobnsmryvw.xgyigvng nf cskcmguvl l d.eamqet.bgs,fyrcul.nq,xjexzhed.,zbigpdwssucer,ugavop.vowwz. cqmegaylpvj,khlfubz,ptt,wjbdgtuibuytprztqewhhadjhbu mssikwkqwqucxbzzqs kbjbnikehnviqdykgmjwyllhyasivg uexccpbcyowyv.vgladhihjnytzd ujnmoypvu,,blvymbxaxpx.jaoe,y.whwmib.nbfmrcsbpm,asyqgqdegs,fejv,jtu.cl i.grn qfsicb.w Now, I ask you to: 1a) Define any "definition-target" you like for that sequence. Please remember, you must not use the specific contingency in the sequence (the specific characters). 2a) Make it arbitrarily small, so that the result has extremely high functional complexity (1000 bits will do). OK? 2) Second part of the challenge. Maybe you are not happy with my sequence. Maybe it is one of the rare sequences for which it is difficult to paint a target and make it arbitrarily small. So, I will give you complete freedom in the second part of my challenge: Please, show me any sequence generated in a truly random way, for which you can paint a definition-target and make it arbitrarily small, so that it exhibits 1000 bits of functional information according to the defined function. OK? Good luck. A final disclosure: my sequence is really random (provided that the internet generator worked well). I did not design it in any way. I took the first one which came. I just decided the set of characters, including space, comma and period, and the length of the sequence (600 characters). No other intervention. So, if you conclude by my procedure that it is a negative, it will be a true negative. For a true positive, I maintain the Shakespeare sonnet. Or any post of sufficient length in this thread.gpuccio
November 23, 2014
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668 Gary S. Gaulin I apologize for misspelling your name. My mistake. Thank you for the explanation. You wrote:
That is all a part of memory Addressing, which in a cell nucleus is arranged in (look up online and see theory for Molecular Intelligence) “chromosome territories” that connect from one to another in a circuit where sensory molecules flow from place to place (not diffuse through entire cell as was once thought). This is caused by complex self-organization, from the way individual molecules always self-assemble according to surrounding conditions.
I still don't understand how we got these biological systems where different proteins are in the right location, in the right amount, at the right time, for so many different situations. Do you have any example of a step-by-step description of the process that created the complex mechanism researchers observe these days? Thank you.Dionisio
November 22, 2014
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Zachriel:
The mutations are not guided, but random.
The two are mutually exclusive? Zachriel:
The mutations are not guided, but random.
The mutations are guided, and you already admitted as such. Here's what you wrote:
Actually, it’s not inevitable. It depends on population size and mutation rate.
In addition to mutation rate, the mutations are guided in that they are selected from a specified set and inserted as a replacement at a specified location. Perhaps you'd like to post your own version of the program that eliminates the designed aspects?Mung
November 22, 2014
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