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An encounter with a critic of biological semiosis

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RoyalSociety3

For those who are unfamiliar with The Royal Society, it’s an academic organization whose membership includes many of the world’s most eminent scientists, and is “the oldest scientific academy in continuous existence”. In loose terms, they are a British forbearer to many of the various Academies of Science sprinkled throughout the nations of the world. From their mission statement:

The Society’s fundamental purpose, reflected in its founding Charters of the 1660s, is to recognize, promote, and support excellence in science and to encourage the development and use of science for the benefit of humanity.

This article isn’t necessarily about the Royal Society, except for the fact that it serves as the genesis of the story, and also a proper backdrop to frame the issues at hand.

What is at issue is the void that seems to exist between the average working biologist and the fundamental reality that DNA (the genome) is a genuine representational medium. It operates in a system that translates the representations it uses to encode biological information into long-term memory. It is not sort-of-like information; it is not kind-of-like information. From a physics perspective, it functions exactly like the words you are reading right now. In fact — again from a physical systems perspective — only genetic encoding can match the variety and open-ended content of the words on this page. The genetic code and recorded language are the only two physical systems like this in the entire cosmos. They use spatially-oriented representations and a reading-frame code. It is the organization of arbitrary constraints that enables the combinatorial encoding of effects. In the total sum of human knowledge, they are a set of two    – with no others.

Royal-Society-March-2016

In their March 2016 volume, the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society published a special collection of papers under the no-nonsense heading “DNA as Information”. The content of those papers reflect the fact that the study of information remains a huge subject in the sciences, with an array of research opportunities in every direction. Contributions among the twenty-odd papers in the collection include such topics as semantics, mathematics, physics, encoding, measurement, complexity, and the role of meaning in biology.

This issue of Philosophical Transactions is where this story begins. More specifically, it begins with a particular paper (presented in that collection) by a well-respected Italian professor and researcher, Marcello Barbieri, who has for many years promoted a paradigm shift to biological semiosis (biosemiosis) and who is currently advancing this effort under the moniker “Code Biology”.

In opening his paper, Dr Barbieri addresses the central issue of this article:

Molecular biology is based on two great discoveries: the first is that genes carry hereditary information in the form of linear sequences of nucleotides; the second is that in protein synthesis a sequence of nucleotides is translated into a sequence of amino acids, a process that amounts to a transfer of information from genes to proteins. These discoveries have shown that the information of genes and proteins is the specific linear order of their sequences. This is a clear definition of information and there is no doubt that it reflects an experimental reality. What is not clear, however, is the ontological status of information, and the result is that today we have two conflicting paradigms in biology. One is the ‘chemical paradigm’, the idea that ‘life is chemistry’, or, more precisely, that ‘life is an extremely complex form of chemistry’. The other is the ‘information paradigm’, the view that chemistry is not enough, that ‘life is chemistry plus information’.

A link to Marcello Barbieri’s abstract is available on the Royal Society website here.

We pick up the story on the reaction side of its publication; the reaction to these observations by an average American scientist — a published biologist — who voices his point of view on the World Wide Web.

In this article it will not be necessary to perform any critical review of the biologist’s comments; one can tell within just a few words the gist of his position. He clearly has no questions about the “life is chemistry” paradigm he was taught at his university, and he clearly finds any other suggestion to be simply absurd. In his critique of Barbieri’s paper, he begins on his left foot:

Critic: “The first thing that I need to point out is that the author is not a biologist. He is a semiotician (someone who studies symbols and meanings). This will readily explain some of his more idiotic claims …”

I entered the conversation to say that he was tremendously misinformed about Marcello Barbieri’s qualifications, and I posted a short passage of text copied from Barbieri’s webpage about his background. I was also little surprised by the complete disregard for the source of the publication itself – the world’s “oldest scientific academy in continuous existence”. Not only can Barbieri be ignored, but the Royal Society is publishing “idiotic claims” about biology – or so it seems.

code-biology-conf

But there is certainly more to this. I believe there are possibly three things at work in the reaction presented above. First and foremost are the material facts themselves; i.e. the observation of genuine representations and arbitrary constraints (formalized in memory) inside the cell are difficult things to explain by the physical properties of matter. After all, the very essence of genetic translation is that it systematically decouples the production of effects from sheer determinism (physicalism), making possible the full range effects necessary for biology to exist. In other words, a system that functions only by locally eliminating your favorite explanation is a difficult nut to crack.

Secondly, Barbieri’s paper was presented (in this particular instance) under the rubric of philosophy, which (as a general rule) is often looked down upon by certain classes of scientists. Not surprisingly, these often include those sciences (like evolutionary biology and theoretical physics) that promote the notion that they are answering mankind’s biggest questions. As I wrote on Biosemiosis.org, this is cavalier conduct in light of the actual evidence. In any case, for many people, the idea of systematic learning without philosophical grounding is a cart without a horse. The practice of systematic learning is itself a philosophy.

But thirdly, there is something even more central to this critic’s comments; he isolates the lowly “creationist” as the key figure in his response. They are, as it turns out, the real impetus for his comments. He begins “So, it seems that creationists have been spamming this article so I’ll analyze it”. By using the word creationists here, some might suggest the critic intends to attack only those who believe such things as the earth being six thousand years old, for instance. But I think we can fairly assume he intends to attack anyone who believes that life on earth is the product of a creation, and of course, anyone who could believe such a thing obviously deserves to be attacked. The mere appearance of the word provides sufficient license to trivialize both the observations being made, as well as any outfit that publishes them.

Now, I have no evidence one way or another that anyone or any group has piled on to Barbieri’s paper – and it makes not one ounce of difference either way. The real issue here is that verifiable physical evidence is being routinely belittled and ignored simply because it doesn’t conform to the personal metaphysics of proper-thinking biologists — and clearly this is about metaphysics. It’s about the treatment and teaching of metaphysics in science. While the self-appointed defenders of science posture about the provisional nature of science, make no mistake; no physical evidence is allowed to take root if it leads to the unimaginable proposition that today’s biologists could be wrong in their personal beliefs about ultimate reality.

And this view doesn’t merely exist among anonymous biologists posting on the web; it is the dominant view found throughout biology at all levels. For instance, Larry Moran is a respected Professor of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, and has written multiple textbooks on the subject. But four and a half years ago, I asked him for a clear statement as to whether or not the genome (DNA) actually contained information. He replied:

In common parlance we refer to these sites as containing “information” in the form of specific nucleotide sequence. It’s a very useful analogy and I think everyone knows what we mean when we use it. Nobody expects it to conform to the meanings of “information” in other disciplines. Nobody, that is, except some IDiots who like to play semantic word games instead of addressing real science. I hope you’re not one of those people.

The problem with this, of course, is that investigator expectations are a secondary concern; the genome functions exactly like language, and vice versa.

In any case, the war on outcast metaphysics is made evident again and again. It’s a socio-political enterprise, and when it rises to the level of ignoring valid evidence, it becomes an enterprise aligned against reason itself. This critic of semiosis had no idea that semiosis was physically identifiable, and he doesn’t want to know.

–Upright BiPed

 


 

The remainder of my exchange with the critic follows below. What it lacks in debate it thankfully makes up for in brevity. The critic clearly threw in the towel, rather than show any interest in the science.

UB:  (posted Barbieri’s extensive background…)

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic:  Thank you for the correction. From the references that immediately jumped, he seemed to study biosemiotics. That’s very disappointing that he actually has conducted research because he is so wrong-headed in his article.

With regards to my name, I’m a published biologist. I’m a scientist and my name is Sam.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB:  Hi Sam. Good to know. Take care.

By the way, he is entirely correct in his paper, you are just unaware of the issues. It happens.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: No he isn’t. I gave very good reasons. This is far closer to my area of research than his.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: Barbieri states that the code is not reducible to physics. He is correct. Like all code systems ever known to exist, the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system. This local discontinuity is what makes it possible for a spatial arrangement of bases in a codon to specify a particular amino acid during synthesis. It is what establishes combinatorial permutations and enables open-ended heredity. I can appreciate the fact that this all sounds foreign to you, but that is only because you are unaware of the data – which has been documented in physics literature starting about half a century ago by physicists such as Howard Pattee and others.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: “Like all code systems ever known to exist, the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system.”

There is no discontinuity. You must’ve never taken molecular biology.

“This local discontinuity is what makes it possible for a spatial arrangement of bases in a codon to specify a particular amino acid during synthesis.”

How so? This is just a bald assertion.

“It is what establishes  combinatorial permutations and enables open-ended heredity.”

Again, bald assertion.

“I can appreciate the fact that this all sounds foreign to you, but that is only because you are unaware of the data – which has been documented in physics literature starting about half a century ago by physicists such as Howard Pattee and others.”

How about you stop condescending to someone who wrote his Master’s thesis on the dynamics of the genetic code? Please make an argument rather than bald assertions you supercilious imbecile.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: “There is no discontinuity.”

Like I said, the local discontinuity is an organizational necessity. The arrangement of bases in a codon does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding. I would think this should be obvious to someone of your training.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: “The arrangement of bases in a codon does not determine which amino acid is presented for binding.”

Strictly speaking, that is true, but there are a lot of contingencies built into the structure of the code. For example, we have the third base wobble. We also have the fact that more similar amino acids correspond to more similar codons. Thus, there seem to be contingencies built into the code. But, even if I grant you this, where does it get you in an argument?

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB:  “where does it get you in an argument?”

This is one of the empirical markers a physicist would use to identify the organization of a semiotic code, i.e. the preservation of the discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect. The cell accomplishes this by isolating the establishment of the code from the reading of the codons, i.e. the amino acid-to-anticodon association is temporally and spatially isolated from the codon-to-anticodon association. This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation.

But that is just the first marker that a physicist would look for. There are others. For instance, genetic translation employs a reading frame code using combinatorial permutations. This requires the arrangement of the bases in each codon to be independent of the minimum total potential energy state of the medium. In other words, a pheromone (for instance) is an informational medium that is recognized in its system by its three-dimensional structure, and that structure is determined by its minimum total potential energy. But in order to enable combinatorial permutations, the arrangement of the medium must be independent of minimum total potential energy – which both DNA and RNA are. This is what physically enables the system to have the informational capacity it requires to describe itself into memory (i.e. to begin the cell cycle, and heredity). It is also what enables the efficient transcription of that high-content information from one medium to another.

These are the types of empirical observations that a physicist (like Pattee and others) would be acquainted with, as well as someone like Barbieri. Or John von Neuman. Or Francis Crick.

You are not acquainted with them, and it’s a sure bet they didn’t appear in your masters thesis on the dynamics of translation. No sweat. I am sure your thesis described other areas of interest in a competent manner. But when you step out and rant on areas of empirical findings that you are uninformed about, you make a mistake. In order to organize the heterogeneous cell, you must first be able to specify a thing and place it under temporal control. This is what protein synthesis does, and the translation of an informational medium is the means to accomplish that effect. But the translation of an informational medium requires one arrangement of matter to serve as a representational medium (codons), and another arrangement of matter to establish what is being represented (aaRS). After all, no object in the material universe inherent specifies any other object in the material universe. Nucleobases do not represent or specify amino acids. They have to be organized in a discontinuous translation system (i.e. semiosis) in order to do so. And that is exactly what is found inside the cell. The material observations that identify the system aren’t even controversial.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

Critic: Thanks for the tripe.

“This discontinuity is a physical necessity for translation to occur, and is evident in all instances of semiotic translation.”

The discontinuity isn’t a physical necessity. You could easily imagine a scenario where amino acids were necessarily assigned to anticodons by chemical properties of tRNAs. I’m sorry but if you can’t get that right, you’re pretty hopeless, idiotically pedantic, and a navel gazer. Goodbye.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

UB: In logic, that’s called “special pleading”. Your imagination, frankly, doesn’t mean diddly. It doesn’t provide you with any exemptions.

The minimum requirement for the origin of the system is established by what is physically necessary to record and translate the amount of information that the system needs to successfully describe itself into memory. On this front, there is very little room. A cell that cannot provide a record of itself cannot begin the cell cycle. A cell that cannot translate a record of itself also cannot begin the cell cycle.

To accomplish what must be accomplished, several of these individual associations (generous estimates typically run between 12 to 15) will need to occur at the same time and place, while the details of their construction are simultaneously encoded in the very information that they make possible.

Odd, isn’t it. Nature passed up on the fully determined (comparatively easy) associations lurking in your imagination, and instead (already faced with an almost vertical face to climb) picked an unnecessary system that preserves the discontinuity between the arrangements and their effects. And even odder still, every system of translation that has ever been examined has followed that same pattern.

Special pleading indeed.  Goodbye.

This article was posted from ComplexityCafe.com

Comments
2014 Systems Biology course by Uri Alon Lecture 1: Basic concepts https://www.youtube.com/embed/pyqBvxeVtG4 [Please, note the time marks given here are grossly approximate] @7:30 Goal: Central idea of the class - it gives unity to the discussed topic. Complex biological systems can be understood using design principles which can unify different systems in a mathematical framework. @8:30 it's up to him to be clear and up to the students to tell him when he's not. @14:30 Suggested textbook: An introduction to Systems Biology: design principles of biological systems.Dionisio
March 14, 2016
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Hi REW, I am at the end of my day. I will respond later, after my commute home.Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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"Understanding the protein circuits that perform computations within the cell is a central problem in biology." Uri Alon Lab - Design Principles in Biology. http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/homepage
Dionisio
March 14, 2016
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UB and BA I think everyone would agree that the genetic code is a physical system. The heart of the debate is whether such codes can only be produced by mind. My contention is that because codes have certain properties that we appreciate in the abstract, its easy to have a bias that because the abstract only exists in minds, a mind must create a code. My definition ( and you can correct me if I'm wrong on any of this) is that a code is the set of rules that relate one set of objects to another set of unrelated objects, and that the rules are arbitrary. So Morse code relates dots and dashes to English letters, and there is nothing 'R'like about dot-dash-dot, which specifies the letter R. I think peoples error lies in thinking that because the rules are arbitrary and there is no direct physical necessity between them, then there can be NO link and so the rules must be assigned by a mind. I just dont think that follows ( if i'm correct in my assessment!) I think it might be useful to talk about codes in detail. For every code there must be some place that the rules reside. For example the rules for the Morse Code can be listed on a piece of paper or in the mind of the operator. For the german ENIGMA machine the code was contained in the pattern of pins and holes on the rotating drums. So my question is; where is the genetic code actually contained...where is the physical manifestation? Considering this might illustrate ( or refute ) my point aboveREW
March 14, 2016
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mike1962. That is EXACTLY right. Under his position, if I can explain the physics behind every feature on a space shuttle, then there is no need to suggest that it was the result of design.Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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Hi PAV, I hope you are well. I'm not entirely sure I can decipher it. Frankly, I had just carpet bombed the guy with positions I was prepared to defend, so I think he was just bailing out. But if I give him the benefit of the doubt, I think he was setting aside any energy issues associated with binding, and was simply saying he can imagine a world where tRNA’s don't all have the same acceptor stems, and instead, each had some arrangement that would somehow attract a particular amino acid, and therefore establish a code association. That is why I suggested to him what a wonderfully odd thing it was that Nature foregoes any such (comparatively easy) deterministic system, and instead comes to use a system that preserves a physicochemical discontinuity between the arrangement of nucleotides in a codon and their cognate amino acids.Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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"Life is just chemistry" is like saying... "Computers are just hardware"mike1962
March 14, 2016
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REW, I find your comments very interesting. I will respond:
The dispute was framed as an argument between 2 points of view: life is just chemistry, or life is chemistry plus information.
Nope. You have not identified the points in contention. Yes, Sam is arguing that life is merely chemistry. But UB is not arguing that life is “information” in a general sense. He is arguing that DNA is a particular type of information. He says that the genetic code is exactly that, a semiotic code.
Depending on the discussion you could say both are correct or that both are incorrect.
This statement is astonishing to me. The claims are mutually exclusive. As with all mutually exclusive claims, it is true that both might be incorrect. But it is not possible for them to both be correct.
As I see it information is everywhere so the phrase ‘chemistry plus information’ is redundant.
And as I have pointed out already, your error is in focusing on information generally instead of the specific type of information (semiotic code) that UB claims is present in the genetic code.
You could just as easily describe life as chemistry as Sam did.
Yes, and if UB is right, you would be wrong in describing it that way.
On the other hand that definition leaves out a lot so that makes both incomplete descriptions.
Yes, it leaves out the semiotic code that UB claims is present.
I know this sounds wishy-washy . . .
No, it sounds confused.
I’d like to see some concrete claims that we could sink our teeth into.
You are not paying attention. UB has made a concrete claim. He claims that the genetic code is a semiotic code.
As far as I can tell you understand theres something unique about the coding in DNA
Then go back and read the post again. UB does not say the DNA code is unique. He says just exactly the opposite. He says it is one of a set of two. Reread this paragraph from the OP:
What is at issue is the void that seems to exist between the average working biologist and the fundamental reality that DNA (the genome) is a genuine representational medium. It operates in a system that translates the representations it uses to encode biological information into long-term memory. It is not sort-of-likeinformation; it is not kind-of-like information. From a physics perspective, it functions exactly like the words you are reading right now. In fact — again from a physical systems perspective — only genetic encoding can match the variety and open-ended content of the words on this page. The genetic code and recorded languageare the only two physical systems like this in the entire cosmos. They use spatially-oriented representations and a reading-frame code. It is the organization of arbitrary constraints that enables the combinatorial encoding of effects. In the total sum of human knowledge, they are a set of two – with no others.
Moving on:
Where you go wrong is that because you understand this in the abstract and that the ‘abstract’ is something that only has meaning in the context of a mind, you think that gives a kind of magical transcendence to DNA
No, UB’s claims are not abstract. They are very concrete and specific. He says there genetic code is a semiotic code in the exact same way the sentence you are reading at this moment is a semiotic code.
– because what DNA does can only be appreciated in the abstract
That is absurd. We can appreciate what DNA does in a very specific and concrete way. How else can you account for the entire field of genetic engineering? Again, I am astonished that you would suggest otherwise.
that means a mind must have infused the DNA with the quality. I just dont think theres any justification for thinking that.
OK, how about this for a justification. For every semiotic code whose provenance is known, the origin of the code is “act of an intelligent agent.” Therefore, when one observes another semiotic code identical in every respect, the abductive inference to best explanation for the provenance of that code is “act of an intelligent agent.”
I think many biologists ( like Sam) appreciate that but cant put it into words ( not that I’ve done much better) so they get frustrated and resort to name calling.
No, Sam appreciates it well enough and it scares the hell out of him because it challenges his basic worldview so he runs around with his fingers in his ears yelling “la la la la la la la I can’t hear you; and you are stupid to boot; la la la la la la.” To your credit you appear to be willing to engage. So let me ask you this question: Do you deny that the genetic translation system contains a natural (and necessary) discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and the determination of its effect within the system?Barry Arrington
March 14, 2016
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Hi REW,
As I see it information is everywhere so the phrase ‘chemistry plus information’ is redundant.
There are a lot of people who make this statement ("information is everywhere") but typically upon examination, it just doesn't hold up. Or, if they are honest about it, they find -- at the very least -- that their concept of information is significantly different than what is meant when a physicist like Howard Pattee or a semiotician like Barbieri talks about information. And just as often, they cannot really argue with what the physicist/semiotician would describe as information, so if they are intent on holding onto their definition, there comes a point where there are two disjointed concepts of information; one that adheres to a well-defined physical system, and another that is more or less defined as the "state of an object" -- any object -- which is why "information is everywhere". Since this latter description applies to everything, it is all but useless. And it is virtually always heavily anthropocentric as well. Such conversations are generally not very productive. I do not believe the cross-up between myself and the critic had anything whatsoever to do with this latter definition of information. The problem was that the critic had no idea that semiosis is a physically identifiable system – and he simply didn’t want to know.Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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UB: Critic wrote: The discontinuity isn’t a physical necessity. You could easily imagine a scenario where amino acids were necessarily assigned to anticodons by chemical properties of tRNAs. I'm trying to understand what he's trying to say. It doesn't make any sense to me. It seems he's missed the entire point you've tried to make. Could you decipher for me what you think he was trying to say, if that's possible?PaV
March 14, 2016
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The conclusion that the cell is a semiotic system, in short, is based on the experimental evidence provided by the adaptors, but also requires a new theoretical framework where concepts like sign, meaning and code are not put aside as metaphorical entities but are defined by operative procedures and are recognized as fundamental components of the living world. http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/1-4020-4814-9_8 Sam's ignorance about Barbieri was pathetically typical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcello_Barbieri http://www.marcellobarbieri.website/Mung
March 14, 2016
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Molecular biology is based on two great discoveries: the first is that genes carry hereditary information in the form of linear sequences of nucleotides If all you're looking at is the chemical composition of nucleotides you might in fact miss the relevance of their sequence.Mung
March 14, 2016
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Hi UP
By the way, what is it that you disagree with?
OK, well I think it will be difficult to explain myself so this may come out a bit disjointed. The dispute was framed as an argument between 2 points of view: life is just chemistry, or life is chemistry plus information. Depending on the discussion you could say both are correct or that both are incorrect. As I see it information is everywhere so the phrase 'chemistry plus information' is redundant. You could just as easily describe life as chemistry as Sam did. On the other hand that definition leaves out a lot so that makes both incomplete descriptions. I know this sounds wishy-washy but I think the whole topic is ill-defined. I'd like to see some concrete claims that we could sink our teeth into. As far as I can tell you understand theres something unique about the coding in DNA. Where you go wrong is that because you understand this in the abstract and that the 'abstract' is something that only has meaning in the context of a mind, you think that gives a kind of magical transcendence to DNA - because what DNA does can only be appreciated in the abstract that means a mind must have infused the DNA with the quality. I just dont think theres any justification for thinking that. I think many biologists ( like Sam) appreciate that but cant put it into words ( not that I've done much better) so they get frustrated and resort to name calling. Anyway, if we have a back and forth on this maybe I'll be able to explain what I mean a bit clearerREW
March 14, 2016
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Hello REW,
I’d love to see a thoughtful critic take on this topic. I’d do it because I disagree with UP but I don’t have the philosophical background
Neither do I. :) By the way, what is it that you disagree with?Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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This alleged scientist Sam should take up Perry Marshall's offer. He seems confident that he can win the millions of dollars perry is offering. This scientist Sam also thinks that imagination is evidence. Strange what anti-IDists will do to try to save their ideology.Virgil Cain
March 14, 2016
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Yeah, that guy was a jerk. If he had something worthwhile to say he should have said it and not resorted to insults. As for the actual argument I think the two of you were mostly arguing past each other. If you both had taken time to more precisely defined terms and ideas and implications you could have had a much more productive discussion. I'd love to see a thoughtful critic take on this topic. I'd do it because I disagree with UP but I don't have the philosophical backgroundREW
March 14, 2016
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Yeah, that guy was a jerk. If he had something worthwhile to say he should have said it and not resorted to insults. As for the actual argument I think the two of you were mostly arguing past each other. If you both had taken time to more precisely define terms and ideas and implications you could have had a much more productive discussion. I'd love to see a thoughtful critic take on this topic. I'd do it because I disagree with UP but I don't have the philosophical backgroundREW
March 14, 2016
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Hi KF, I agree on every count.Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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Hey Groov, Thank You! ...also, Biosemisosis has a Facebook page. We love likes. And especially shares. :)Upright BiPed
March 14, 2016
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Superb post, thx and onward. I have quite a few materialist FB friends, should be interesting if they take the time when I link.groovamos
March 14, 2016
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The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice. and All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the spirit. trying to reason with an intelligent fool is harder than to do so with a simple one.John S
March 14, 2016
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UB, it is patent that when we look at the D/RNA system and its associated effectors, we are looking at machine code implemented in a molecular system. Proteins, especially, are assembled in a numerically controlled molecular machine the ribosome, through a string data structure that has in it start, sequence and halt conditions, key elements of an algorithm. Prior to that in key cases the mRNA string is transcribed, may be edited and is arranged to drive that process. There is no mechanically necessary connexion between the codons and the proteins, and the tRNA taxi-position arm components use a standard CCA coupler to hold the AAs. It is loading enzymes that define which tRNA carries what AA and in fact there has been reprogramming of certain codes to carry novel AAs, also. Refusal to face this is not a healthy sign -- and it inadvertently testifies as to the strength of the inference to design from such phenomena. KFkairosfocus
March 14, 2016
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Hello Dio, As WJM said, he reacted because he was being challenged. I think he heard just enough to know he didn't want to hear any more.Upright BiPed
March 13, 2016
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Hi Mung, It’s one of the interesting things about this overall situation – the range of different people and identities involved along the way. On one end you have so much as Von Neumann, who all but predicted what would be required for self-replication (long before the genome was even known). Then you have people like Crick, Watson, Zamecnik, Hoagland, Nirenberg, and others, whose experimental results demonstrate the system that Von Neumann predicted. Then there are those like Pattee, and even Barbieri, who have documented the systematic reality of it all. And on the other end you have professors (like Moran) whose capacity to teach a suitably neutral metaphysic is obviously in question, and also the students of biology themselves (like our critic here) who are often completely clueless that there are systematic realities about genetic translation that are required for the system to function. And then you have browser-enabled outsiders – average citizens -- like many of us here, who can take the time to read deeply enough into the literature to understand the situation at hand.Upright BiPed
March 13, 2016
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WJM...oops...copying error. Fixed. (and Thanks!)Upright BiPed
March 13, 2016
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Sam, like many people would, reacted with hostility when faced with evidence that his fundamental worldview is wrong. Best case scenario is that he fumes for a while then later examines the evidence UB provided him. Biosemiosis is the smoking gun of the creator in biology, just as fine tuning is the smoking gun of the creator in astrophysics. UB - great post. However, you repeated most of paragraph 5 in paragraph 6. I'm not sure that was your intent.William J Murray
March 13, 2016
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UB Please, help me. My reading comprehension is poor. In your brief chatting your interlocutor does not seem to present any arguments backing his position. Did I miss something?Dionisio
March 13, 2016
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UB Interesting OP. Thank you. I don't understand why the discussion had to include an offensive sentence like this:
[...] if you can’t get that right, you’re pretty hopeless, idiotically pedantic, and a navel gazer. Goodbye.
What does that mean? Ran out of arguments or patience?Dionisio
March 13, 2016
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But Sam did a master's thesis and is published. Therefore you are wrong.Mung
March 13, 2016
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