Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Honest Presentation of the Evidence in our Public Schools

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Let’s face it, the reason Darwinian evolution is so controversial, especially in the public schools, is that it has profound implications concerning who we are, where we came from, and whether or not our lives have ultimate meaning and purpose. This is not the case in chemistry, physics or mathematics. Schoolchildren are not as unperceptive as some people would like to believe, and they pick up on these implications immediately, as my daughter did in the seventh grade.

Darwinian theory has been singled out for special scrutiny in public education not only for this reason, which should be enough, but because the evidence is not nearly as solid as it is in the hard sciences such as those mentioned above.

In a previous thread (https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1514) I commented about the suppression of evidence and discussion concerning Darwinian theory in the public schools. I don’t advocate for the teaching of ID in the public schools, and I do agree that evolution has occurred. Things are not now as they once were, so “evolution” has taken place by definition — living things have changed over time. There is no substantive controversy here.

What I object to is an incomplete at best, and dishonest at worst, presentation of the evidence for Darwinian theory in public education. Here are some proposals for how the evidence could be more appropriately presented without “subverting science.” Perhaps commenters could add to the list, and I’d be curious as to why anyone would object to such an approach.

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Present the evidence of changing finch beaks with changing weather conditions, and talk about how some scientists propose that these changes can be extrapolated over long periods of time to explain the origin of completely new and different life forms. But also mention that these changes have been observed to be cyclic, and that some question the validity of extrapolating these minor changes to explain major biological innovation. Ditto for peppered moths.

Point out that bacteria develop antibiotic resistance through the evolutionary process of natural selection, but add that experiments with thousands of generations of bacteria subjected to harsh selection pressures have yet to produce a fundamentally new variety of bacteria.

Observe that scientists propose that the development of embryos suggests the recapitulation of evolutionary history, but point out that the similarities assumed in the past are not what they were once thought to be, and that the earliest stages of development are not the most similar.

Mention all the classic examples of transitional forms in the fossil record, but also mention that some prominent paleontologists (e.g., Gould and Eldredge) have questioned whether or not the overall fossil evidence supports the traditional view of Darwinian gradualism. Offer the incompleteness of the fossil record as a possible explanation, but observe that the seamless gradation of living forms predicted by Darwinian theory has yet to be conclusively established.

Discuss the Cambrian explosion. Offer the standard explanations for this remarkable phenomenon (incompleteness of the fossil record and the likelihood that soft-bodied predecessors would not fossilize), but also mention that some argue that the Cambrian explosion presents a problem for standard evolutionary theory because so many new body plans appear in such a short period of time, and this would seem to contradict the proposal that new body plans should originate in the leaves of the tree of life and not the trunk.

Mention the Miller-Urey experiment and the formation of amino acids by a natural process (after all, it is a classic event in the history of origin-of-life studies), but mention that scientists now believe that conditions on the early earth were not those used in the experiment, and that no concrete explanation has been offered for how those amino acids could have formed biologically meaningful proteins by undirected chemical means.

Talk about various origin-of-life theories and the fact that many scientists are confident that an explanation will eventually be found, but mention that the current state of affairs in origin-of-life studies is many mutually contradictory hypotheses, and that the origin of information in DNA is a particularly difficult problem.

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I don’t see why such an approach would be unreasonable at all, why students could not understand such a presentation of the evidence, why they would be confused by it, or why it would subvert science. Students could evaluate for themselves whether or not they find the evidence convincing, which should be their prerogative. After all, where they came from and why they are here is a very important matter.

Comments
Jack, "But there is a difference between no God and the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God of Christianity who is continually and creatively present in the world in ways that are beyond our limited human understanding. Simply put, what is chance to us is not chance to God. Just because we see something as as random, contingenct, or lucky doesn’t mean that it was so to God." So you're saying God is the ultimate cause of the universe and all life, that he knows exactly how all things will unfold, that His creativity and presence is nonstop and permeates all things. But all this is in the realm of something called faith, a mysterious item that is utterly cut off from all things we might call real, all things we see and experience, and has no basis in any of them. Everything that we call real and of which every particle is under the control of God gives the appearance of being devoid of God or Mind and will forever do so. Our universe looks and acts just like it might if there were no God. Yet such a no-God universe, if your belief is correct, has no possibility to even exist. If your God is true it means that he was necessary for things to be as they are, and that without God exerting his attributes, our world would not be here. This is why I find theistic evolution incoherent. On another thread, someone said that in Catholic school they had been taught that God could create however he wanted, even through evolution. Do you not see a fundamental disconnect between the true materialist and one who thinks there is a God who 'used' evolution? In other words, your only argument with ID is that you think the design in the universe MUST be invisible. But why insist that the universe is cleverly constructed to forever hide from human intelligence that a Mind was required? To insist upon that, is to insist that the universe, upon investigation, will always yield a false answer. The false answer it will yield is that matter is the sufficient starting point of existence, rather than consciousness or Mind.avocationist
August 31, 2006
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"Scientists are far more pragmatic than political. What makes a difference for a scientist is not politics but success at making significant discoveries." Then why was Richard Sternberg treated the way he was treated? And how do scientists, of all professionals, end up being more pragmatic than political? Don't they care about career success and the respect of their peers like people in every other profession? Don't they care about better jobs, more money, greater prestige? Is science more altruistic than other professions? To take an example, I've always read that one of the major barriers to medical discoveries is that researchers jealously hide their findings from one another, and are reluctant to share information. That doesn't seem very "pragmatic". In fact it seems like medical researchers, at least, are like all the rest of us. If they're so interested in taking credit and reaping financial rewards, then perhaps they're not above political maneuvering to protect their scientific turf, their grants, and their positions of honor and influence. I don't know. Seems like they're regular people, too.russ
August 30, 2006
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Gil, Your initial proposal sounds reasonable enough for a college level course. I could quibble with a few of the details, but overall it's a fair account of the state of things. From there, a college-level student could then further explore the issues. DS: "Alright then. I’m fair and open minded. Explain to me why it’s important for a biological researcher to believe that random mutation and natural selection independently created camera eyes in mollusks and mammals. Contrast this with the same researcher who believes that the information needed to construct a camera eye was part of the genome of the common ancestor of mollusks and mammals and the information was incorporated as part of an intentional design. How will the researcher who believes life was designed be compromised by his belief?" I think a significant part of the answer has to do with what you *don't* do as a RM+NS scientist. If you believed strongly that the information for complex structures was front-loaded in the ancestral genome, then you are also committed (IMO) to the belief that the mechanisms for unleashing that information in a directed manner are also contained therein. For instance, we observe that many evolutionary changes resulting in new function, etc occur through nucleotide mutations, transposon insertions, genomic rearrangements, etc. I suspect this would be the case if we were to examine the phylogenetics of the various eye proteins, etc, involved in your proposed mammal/mollusk scenario. As a front-loader, you are, I would argue, committed to the notion that most, if not all, of these mutations are orchestrated by the genomic "programming" itself (i.e. they are not random). So you would spend a great deal of effort trying to figure out how that unfolding process of information occurs. What are the precise biological mechanisms that orchestrated these mutations, thereby directing the evolution of these complex structures? The problem is that we have no indication whatsoever that they exist. Transposons jump in the middle of genes, causing recessive and dominant diseases galore. Ditto for nucleotide mutations and genomic rearrangements. The raw mutations don't seem to be orchestrated in any way. If they were, you'd have to explain why these pre-ordained orchestrated mechanisms seem to be inclined to kill us or otherwise generate undesirable effects. So I think as a ID-based biological researcher, you'd spend a lot of time and effort looking for the components that allowed the unfolding of this master design. As for positive instances of evolutionary knowledge, I would suggest pharmacogenomics, viral evolution and epidemiology, transposon biology, cancer metastasis among others as areas where RM+NS vs. design would strongly influence the generation of hypotheses and how research is conducted.great_ape
August 30, 2006
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But the mutations that occur in spite of proof reading and EC don’t appear to be the type of mutations required to drive common descent.
As it happens, they are. Genomic studies have shown that all of the differences between species are due to DNA sequence changes that are of the same type as those produced by the mutations that occur in spite of proof reading and error correction.trrll
August 30, 2006
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Alright then. I’m fair and open minded. Explain to me why it’s important for a biological researcher to believe that random mutation and natural selection independently created camera eyes in mollusks and mammals. Contrast this with the same researcher who believes that the information needed to construct a camera eye was part of the genome of the common ancestor of mollusks and mammals and the information was incorporated as part of an intentional design. How will the researcher who believes life was designed be compromised by his belief?
Scientist A uses evolutionary theory, which makes specific predictions about conservation of genes and degrees of genetic homology between species—quantitative hypotheses that can readily be tested. So scientist A tests them, makes discoveries, and advances his career. Scientist B choses intentional design, a vague, handwaving notion that makes no testable predications. So scientist B can't think of any experiments to do, wastes his time pontificating about how his theory is really better, even though he has no results to show. His scientific career languishes and he ends up doing public relations work for Discovery Institute.trrll
August 30, 2006
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How would things go for these folks if they started questioning evolutionary theory (NDE)? Would open criticism of evolutionary theory be a career-neutral activity?
Scientists are far more pragmatic than political. What makes a difference for a scientist is not politics but success at making significant discoveries. So if a scientist established a strong track record of making important discoveries and then announced that he had been guiding his research based upon hypotheses derived from intelligent design, other scientists would flock to test those hypotheses. But of course, that would require having testable hypotheses, and I've never to hear any from the ID crowd, even from Behe. Moreover, the only ID person with any kind of real biochemical research experience, seems not to have had little if any research success since he got into ID. That hardly attracts other scientists to the cause.trrll
August 30, 2006
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Joseph, "Alleged computer simulations of living organisms are really computer simulations of the programmer’s idea of living organisms. And the math demonstrates that Simpson was corect when he stated that even the most beneficial mutation had a better chance of being lost than it does at becoming fixed." This is ironic. You recently demonstrated how little you care about math (see posts sixty six and following in https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1485#comments ). This may be too much for you, but perhaps some here will understand: The computer simulations implement dynamical MODELS of systems. Mathematical analysis requires that one adopt a mathematical MODEL of a system. Every model is a simplification. A problem with mathematical (analytic) models of evolution is that they are often too simple. There are complex nonlinear dynamics in evolution that are generally very difficult to handle mathematically. Furthermore, finite populations tend to be problematic, so mathematical models often assume infinite populations. The advantage of a mathematical model is that you can prove its properties. The disadvantage is that the properties of a simplistic model may not approximate those of nature. The advantage of a simulation model is that you can study a complex dynamical system. The disadvantage is that you have to study it empirically, as though it were given to you by nature. To give you some idea of the importance of evolutionary simulation and the weakness of mathematical results derived under the assumption of an infinite population, I'll mention some work by David and Gary Fogel. They used computational simulations to study the famous evolutionary stable strategies of Maynard Smith. They made the population size on the order of five to ten thousand, as I recall, and discovered that the strategies often did not lead to the stable population proportions of different types that Maynard Smith had derived. Instead, the proportions fluctuated wildly. They concluded that "Evolutionary stable strategies are not always stable under evolutionary dynamics." See http://www.natural-selection.com/Library/1995/Evol_Stable_Strategies.pdf So, Joseph, do you know what assumptions Simpson made in deriving his results?Tom English
August 30, 2006
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trrll likes to make baseless claims about the "truth" of Darwinism that are unfounded on reality. I doubt he'll back up any of his claims about evolution. He just likes to dodge the question like a typical Darwinian. Don't get your hopes up about getting a straight answer from any evolutionist. The hoax is slowing getting exposed by the truth. He obviously isn't up to date on the current literature out there with proof that evolution is nothing but a myth.AntiDarwinian
August 30, 2006
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To Joseph: it would be highly inaccurate to tell the students that "the materialistic alternative to ID is basically 'sheer-dumb-luck'…"Jack Krebs
August 30, 2006
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trrll: Error correction is irrelevant, because when we talk of the mutation rate, we are talking about the mutations that happen in spite of error correction and proof reading. But the mutations that occur in spite of proof reading and EC don't appear to be the type of mutations required to drive common descent. trrll: Even after error correction, the mutation rate is high enough that almost every individual carries some novel mutation. True but the probability of any individual's unique mutation becoming fixed in a population is directly related to the size of that population. And although small populations tend to be better suited for this, they are also closer to exiting the gene pool. Also given what we do know pertaining to even the most beneficial mutation will be lost in a population as opposed to becoming fixed evolutionism just does NOT jive with the data. trrll: Actually it does. Mathematical derivations and computer simulations confirm that beneficial mutations do not become “lost in the population.” Indeed, even a neutral mutation has a nonzero probability of fixation. Again it depends on population size. Alleged computer simulations of living organisms are really computer simulations of the programmer's idea of living organisms. And the math demonstrates that Simpson was corect when he stated that even the most beneficial mutation had a better chance of being lost than it does at becoming fixed. trrll: As a scientist, I find this apparent horror of randomness among ID advocates to be nearly incomprehensible. Randomness is so fundamentally bound up in the fabric of the universe that almost everything important has a random element. You are msitaken on what IDists think and say about "randomness":
Intelligent design is a good explanation for a number of biochemical systems, but I should insert a word of caution. Intelligent design theory has to be seen in context: it does not try to explain everything. We live in a complex world where lots of different things can happen. When deciding how various rocks came to be shaped the way they are a geologist might consider a whole range of factors: rain, wind, the movement of glaciers, the activity of moss and lichens, volcanic action, nuclear explosions, asteroid impact, or the hand of a sculptor. The shape of one rock might have been determined primarily by one mechanism, the shape of another rock by another mechanism. Similarly, evolutionary biologists have recognized that a number of factors might have affected the development of life: common descent, natural selection, migration, population size, founder effects (effects that may be due to the limited number of organisms that begin a new species), genetic drift (spread of "neutral," nonselective mutations), gene flow (the incorporation of genes into a population from a separate population), linkage (occurrence of two genes on the same chromosome), and much more. The fact that some biochemical systems were designed by an intelligent agent does not mean that any of the other factors are not operative, common, or important.
Having a "random element" is not questioned by IDists nor Creationists. Saying randomness brought this all together is a bit much. I wonder what the students would say if they were told the materialistic alternative to ID is basically "sheer-dumb-luck"...Joseph
August 30, 2006
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trrll: I can tell you that the we are all convinced of the importance of evolution for biological research. Alright then. I'm fair and open minded. Explain to me why it's important for a biological researcher to believe that random mutation and natural selection independently created camera eyes in mollusks and mammals. Contrast this with the same researcher who believes that the information needed to construct a camera eye was part of the genome of the common ancestor of mollusks and mammals and the information was incorporated as part of an intentional design. How will the researcher who believes life was designed be compromised by his belief?DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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Jack Krebs: “Millions of Christians belief that the theory of evolution, as the accepted and well-established theory of how species have changed over time, does not conflict with their religious beliefs about where they came from and where they’re going...” Which “theory of evolution” is it that they believe in? I guarantee it isn’t the blind, purposeless, undirected, goalless Darwinian mechanism, as taught in the public schools. These people are probably mostly theistic evolutionists, so they definitely don’t believe in the blind-watchmaker brand of the product, which is what is being marketed in public education. Jack Krebs: “In fact the problem with a list such as Gil proposes (mostly taken from Wells) is that all the items are presented at a shallow enough level that it can be made to look like someone could ‘evaluate for themselves’ after just a small amount of study.” Actually, it wasn’t mostly taken from Wells. It’s all over the literature these days. Darwinian theory as currently presented to high school and junior high students is at a shallow level, of necessity, and they are expected to swallow this shallow presentation completely uncritically.GilDodgen
August 30, 2006
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"As a biologist, I can tell you that the strongest supporters of evolutionary theory among my colleagues are the biochemists and molecular biologists." How would things go for these folks if they started questioning evolutionary theory (NDE)? Would open criticism of evolutionary theory be a career-neutral activity?russ
August 30, 2006
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And given what we do know about proof reading and error correction to say “Genomic sequencing data proving that all differences between species are consistent with an accumulation of mutational change and testing predictions as to the degree of relatedness, the number of mutations separating species, the origins of major protein families in short-generation time origins, similarity of genetic code, etc., etc. is NOTHING but laughable nonsense.
Error correction is irrelevant, because when we talk of the mutation rate, we are talking about the mutations that happen in spite of error correction and proof reading. Even after error correction, the mutation rate is high enough that almost every individual carries some novel mutation
Also given what we do know pertaining to even the most beneficial mutation will be lost in a population as opposed to becoming fixed evolutionism just does NOT jive with the data.
Actually it does. Mathematical derivations and computer simulations confirm that beneficial mutations do not become "lost in the population." Indeed, even a neutral mutation has a nonzero probability of fixation.trrll
August 30, 2006
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Sorry trrll, but MD’s often engage in both research and treatment of patients. They also work with other species in the research. Just as an example I refer you to open heart surgery which was perfected by surgeons experimenting first on dogs.
It is certainly true that the closer an organism is to man evolutionarily, the more reliable the results of research. But somebody doing clinical (as opposed to basic biological) research doesn't need to know why this is true. All they need to know is: monkeys are better than dogs, dogs are better than rats. Most clinical research is largely a cut-and-try affair; it simply doesn't involve a lot of basic biological knowledge. For projects in which such knowledge is required, the researcher is usually a MD/PhD with training in basic research, or is collaborating with a basic researcher. As a member of the basic science faculty of a Medical School, I can tell you that the we are all convinced of the importance of evolution for biological research. We choose not to teach it to medical students because we don't think that it is crucial for treating patients. We make no attempt in general to teach typical medical students how to do basic biological research; that is something that we reserve for the MD/PhD curriculum.trrll
August 30, 2006
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I haven’t had time to read the thread, but here is what I think would help — just teach MORE BIOCHEMISTRY, and EARLIER. Period. End of story. Once you learn the current views of biochemistry, especially before you learn about Darwinism, Darwinism just looks dumb. You don’t even need to teach anything against it — just stand Darwinism next to biochemistry and Darwinism clearly loses. Teach transposons — and their regulation. Teach the interaction of biochemical pathways. Teach the regulation of mutation. Teach the way that DNA is accurately copied. Do this _first_. Then teach evolution. Watch the kids laugh.
I'm all for teaching more biochemistry (of course, we'll have to decide what to cut from the curriculum to make room). I'm not particularly concerned about it undermining understanding of evolution. As a biologist, I can tell you that the strongest supporters of evolutionary theory among my colleagues are the biochemists and molecular biologists.trrll
August 30, 2006
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I don’t dispute common descent. All the evidence you site is in support of common descent and/or allele frequencies within the same species. Give me the empirical evidence supporting RANDOM mutation as the mechanism behind the generation of novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans. Be sure to describe to me what tests were performed to discriminate between random and directed mutations.
Random mutation is of course the null hypothesis, since some additional mechanism would have to be invoked to provide a direction. It is not as if people have not looked for directed mutation, but no convincing evidence has been found. The closest anybody has been able to get is evidence that the frequency of random mutations is increased under certain circumstances when accelerated evolution might be useful. Of course, there is no reliable way to prove that a specific sequence of events is random, since a random sequence has been shown to be mathematically indistinguishable from a perfectly compressed nonrandom sequence. Therefore, it is mathematically and scientifically impossible to prove that mutations are truly random, as opposed to pseudorandom. As a scientist, I find this apparent horror of randomness among ID advocates to be nearly incomprehensible. Randomness is so fundamentally bound up in the fabric of the universe that almost everything important has a random element. In quantum mechanics, there is an irreducible randomness about the trajectory of a particle. In chemistry and thermodynamics, all reactions, including the fundamental biochemical reactions of life, are driven by entropy, the randomization of energy. Even something as fundamental to life as the folding of proteins into their active forms is driven by random interactions with solvent molecules. Signaling between neurons works by random diffusion of neurotransmitter molecules and random binding to neurotransmitter receptor proteins, producing neurotransmission by biasing the random thermal fluctuations of receptor protein structure. Stepping away from science for a brief moment, it is worth noting that our definition of randomness is inherently tied to our inability as finite human beings to see the future. It is questionable whether the term would even have meaning for a being capable of transcending time. So there is a nice big loophole where you are welcome to insert the religious belief of your choice.trrll
August 30, 2006
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Sorry trrll, but MD's often engage in both research and treatment of patients. They also work with other species in the research. Just as an example I refer you to open heart surgery which was perfected by surgeons experimenting first on dogs. The fact of the matter is that modern biology is the study of living tissue. The similarities and differences between human hearts and dog hearts can be empirically observed. There is absolutely nothing useful to be obtained by believing that the observed reality is the historical result of chance or design. It doesn't matter. The living tissue of humans and dogs remain in the same comparative state regardless of how they got there. That's why MDs in practice or in research don't need to know jack-diddly-squat about historical biology and in bold proof of that fact no courses in evolution are required to become a medical doctor. If there was the import you pretend exists then the study would be a requirement in pre-med syllabus.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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trrll: While evolution is absolutely critical for biological research,... What/which "evolution" is "absolutely critical for biological research"?: 1. Change over time; history of nature; any sequence of events in nature 2. Changes in the frequencies of alleles in the gene pool of a population 3. Limited common descent: the idea that particular groups of organisms have descended from a common ancestor. 4. The mechanisms responsible for the change required to produce limited descent with modification, chiefly natural selection acting on random variations or mutations. 5. Universal common descent: the idea that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor. 6. “Blind watchmaker” thesis: the idea that all organisms have descended from common ancestors solely through an unguided, unintelligent, purposeless, material processes such as natural selection acting on random variations or mutations; that the mechanisms of natural selection, random variation and mutation, and perhaps other similarly naturalistic mechanisms, are completely sufficient to account for the appearance of design in living organisms. BTW evolutionists only think they know where they came from...Joseph
August 30, 2006
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Zachriel wrote: "franky172: “Are you suggesting that the people digging for Tiktaalik just happened to be hanging out 600 km from the North Pole?” Lucky guess. (Tiktaalik has gills, scales, but the ribs and neck of a tetrapod, and legs and wrists which end in fins. Just happened to be in strata dated at 375 million years ago associated with tropical stream waters. Nested hierarchy stuff. Like I said — just a lucky guess.)" So, then, Zachriel, shouldn't we expect that in strata that dates 370 million years ago we should find a specimen that not only has all the features of Tiktaalik, but with fins that are now taking on the form of digits? He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. You're basically arguing that this specimen is right where the geological record should find it, which then becomes an argument for the 'perfection' of the fossil record. But this then destroys the excuse that Darwinists use for the lack of transitional forms: that is, the 'imperfection' of the fossil record. You can't have it both ways. Further, when you consider that the paleontologists involved here were looked for a specific type of environment, isn't the best answer to the appearance of Tiktaalik simply that of an adaptation to its environment? Though NS might be a part of this process of adaptation, it is no more than adaptation. In other words, this isn't an example of 'progressive evolution' (='macroevolution'), but of simple adaptation (='microevolution').PaV
August 30, 2006
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And my God, trrll. It just occured to me that physicians and surgeons aren’t required to take any classes in evolution or swear they believe it before being allowed to diagnose, prescribe, and cut. Yet they somehow still get through medical school, residencies, and are allowed practice medicine. It’s a miracle we aren’t all dead for this egregious gap in the education of medical professionals. Oh the humanity!
No, we don't teach medical students much about evolution. For that matter, we don't teach them much basic science at all; they are expected to get that from their undergraduate curriculum. In medical school, they get the bare minimum of basic science required to understand the medical curriculum. It has been a long time since physicians other than MD/PhDs received scientific training. While evolution is absolutely critical for biological research, it is not that relevant to the practice of medicine. After all, physicians only have to work on one species, man. They need to understand how things work, not where they came from.trrll
August 30, 2006
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Zach It seems that what you ask is that by demonstrating the theoretical ability of RM+NS to generate small beneficial changes that I then accept a huge extrapolation that many small things add up to big things. I do not accept that extrapolation. It's too large a leap. You can make high pile of rocks one rock at a time but you can't pile them so high that they reach the moon. Small things don't always add up to big things. So I make the very reasonable request that the big things be demonstrated. If it can't be done then it can't be done and as honest inquirers into the nature of things we need to admit the limits of our knowledge and not make up narratives out of whole cloth and treat those narratives as axioms in a grand pretense that the limit doesn't exist. I don't know that what I ask cannot be demonstrated. All I ask is that until it IS demonstrated we don't teach our children that sole narrative explanation in a vacuum devoid of criticism or alternative explanations.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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DaveScot: “For brevity I use the phrase novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans.” Zachriel: "You would consider then that humans and chimpanzees are only differing as to microevolution, as they have the same cell, tissue, organs and general body plans." No. I see human/chimp difference as a gray area. Novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans are large milestones that evolution somehow obtained. Why bother with lesser steps when the big steps are easily delineated and in need of explanation? In other words, if you can demonstrate that RM+NS has the capacity to generate novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans then I will concede it can do lesser things. In actuality I want it demonstrated to me how RM+NS created the DNA/ribosome combination and if that can be done I'll concede RM+NS' creative power to accomplish everything that followed. But since DNA/ribosome is subject to the but that's not part of Darwinian evolution I instead pick the milestone events that followed to avoid the argument over what "evolution" entails.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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And another thing I tell the students: If living organisms did NOT arise from non-living matter via unguided, unplanned processes there would be NO reason to infer its subsequent diversity arose solely due to those types of processes. And right now we do not know how living organisms came to be, even though it is an active area of research.Joseph
August 30, 2006
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The bottom line is that there are serious and legitimate questions and challenges concerning evolutionary theory as taught in the public schools, but these challenges are not allowed to be aired, despite the fact that 85% of Americans don’t buy the blind-watchmaker thesis, which is what is taught. Please refer once again to the six proposals I made in my essay. I would like to know why any of these challenges would be inappropriate in the curriculum if included with the traditional presentation of evolutionary theory. Are any of the facts in my challenges wrong? Do they promote religion? Are they too esoteric for students to understand? If none of these, what is the real motivation for excluding them?GilDodgen
August 30, 2006
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What's been more amusing is that a lot of things that I previously had no trouble ascribing to Darwinism (simple speciation, for instance) I later found out had very little empirical support as a general mechanism. For observed cases of speciation, symbiogenesis has been much more likely the cause than natural selection. However, RM+NS remains in the textbooks, while symbiogenesis is left out. Yet symbiogenesis has much more empirical support. What gives? I'll tell you what -- it's a worldview.johnnyb
August 30, 2006
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DaveScot: "For brevity I use the phrase novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans." You would consider then that humans and chimpanzees are only differing as to microevolution, as they have the same cell, tissue, organs and general body plans. Just a bit bigger brain, a bit shorter arm-leg ratio, flatter feet, less hair. Or cats and dogs. Or mice and elephants. Except for that long proboscis. And the legs on Tiktaalik, just extended distal endochondral bones and synovial joints of its pectoral fin. Microevolution.Zachriel
August 30, 2006
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Zachriel: “The vast majority of biologists and other scientists working in related fields is that the Theory of Evolution is a strongly supported scientific explanation for the observed evidence and makes a strong empirical predictions in a wide variety of different scientific areas, from geology to genetics.” jerry: "Which is basically sophistry." My statement was fact. Most scientists in the relevant fields of study do consider the Theory of Evolution, including the Theory of Common Descent, to be solidly based in empirical and predictive science. I note you ignored the specifics of Tiktaalik, and the predictions based in evolutionary science entailed in its discovery. jerry: "However, for most of what this debate is about is macro-evolution, the evolution of novel things and origin of life." Start with common descent of vertebrates, which is supported by the nested hierarchy of morphology, the succession of fossils, and the recently discovered nested hierarchy of genomics. There is no point discussing the mechanisms of diversification from common ancestors, if you reject common descent.Zachriel
August 30, 2006
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franky "what would count as evidence for something beyond micro-evolution" For brevity I use the phrase novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans.DaveScot
August 30, 2006
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macro-evolution, the evolution of novel things and origin of life. Here Darwin has no relevance as far as the evidence. What many do is conflate the evidence in micro-evolution as proof for these other areas of evolution. [...] So take the UD challenge and be the first supporter of Darwin to provide a defense of Darwin in these other areas. I have to admit, I am a little curious as to what would count as evidence for something beyond micro-evolution. The origin of new body parts? Metabolic pathways? What?franky172
August 30, 2006
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