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An open letter to Archbishop Jerome Listecki

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Your Excellency, I humbly ask you to strike a blow for academic freedom, free speech and religious freedom, by publicly forbidding Marquette University from calling itself a Catholic university henceforth, and by revoking the mandate of theology teachers at Marquette University to teach theology. In this letter, I’d like to explain why I believe these drastic measures are necessary and justifiable.

Before I go on, I’d better introduce myself. My name is Vincent Torley, and I’m an Australian Catholic layman (now residing in Japan), with a Ph.D. in philosophy and several other degrees. Thanks to my years of study in an open academic environment where people were free to defend any and every point of view, I have a firm commitment to the values of academic freedom and unfettered free speech on campus, and I have defended these values on previous occasions (see here and here). At the same time, I believe that a university which calls itself Catholic should be free to propagate Catholic beliefs – such as the belief that abortion is wrong, or that marriage is a union between one man and one woman.

What happened at Marquette University

Which brings me to my reason for writing this letter. Yesterday, I came across a report on Breitbart by Austin Ruse on a blatant attempt to suppress academic freedom and free speech at one of America’s top Catholic universities: Marquette University. After reading the report’s opening paragraph, I was dumbstruck with astonishment:

Marquette University has moved to suspend and then fire Professor John McAdams for backing a student who tried to defend man-woman marriage when a leftist teaching assistant shut the student down.

It appears that back in the fall of 2014, the teaching assistant told the student in no uncertain terms that he was not allowed to defend the traditional Catholic doctrine of man-woman marriage in the classroom. “You can have whatever opinions you want but I can tell you right now, in this class homophobic comments, racist comments, and sexist comments will not be tolerated,” she said. [See here for a transcript of their conversation, which was published in The Atlantic in an article by Conor Friedersdorf.] When the student pressed her further, and asked: “So, are you saying that not agreeing with gay marriage is homophobic?”, the teaching assistant responded: “To argue that individuals should not have rights is going to be offensive to someone in this class.” (In fact, the Marquette Harassment policy prohibits “verbal, written or physical conduct directed at a person or a group based on… gender or sexual orientation where the offensive behavior… could or does result in mental, emotional or physical discomfort, embarrassment, ridicule or harm,” which means that if there had been a gay or lesbian student in the classroom that day, he or she could have legitimately complained of “mental or emotional discomfort,” upon hearing a student defend the Catholic position on marriage.)

When this incident came to the attention of Marquette University political science associate professor John McAdams, a tenured academic who has a Harvard Ph.D., he publicized the incident on his private blog, in an entry dated November 9, 2014. But after the teaching assistant in question complained of getting hate mail, McAdams was told that he would be stripped of his tenure and fired, even though McAdams had nothing to do with those hateful messages, and even though the teaching assistant had already been granted a tenure track position at another university. (Dr. McAdams was also subsequently criticized for naming the teaching assistant, but he broke no university rules in doing so, and as Dr. McAdams has pointed out, she was not functioning as a “student,” but as a faculty member, when she shut down a classroom discussion on the traditional view of marriage. For more on the university’s accusations against Dr. McAdams, see this comment below.) Since then, a “diverse” faculty committee has recommended to the university president that Dr. McAdams be suspended without pay from April 1 through the fall of 2016, and that he lose his job unless he admits his “guilt” and issues a grovelling apology expressing his regret at the “harm” suffered by the graduate student “within the next two weeks.” Specifically, Dr. McAdams must acknowledge that his original November 9, 2014, blog post was “reckless and incompatible with the mission and values of Marquette University.”

Your Excellency, I submit that the behavior of the president and the faculty committee at Marquette University constitutes a clear-cut violation of academic freedom, and that the teaching assistant’s declaration that the Catholic doctrine of marriage was off-limits in her philosophy classroom was an equally clear violation of free speech, as well as a contravention of the religious freedom of a Catholic university.

How other academics and journalists reacted

And I’m not the only one who feels this way: an article in the Huffington Post by Greg Lukianoff, President and CEO of Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), titled, Free Speech on Campus: The 10 Worst Offenders of 2014 (March 2, 2015), listed Marquette University as one of the ten American colleges guilty of the most egregious violations of free speech during the past year:

Marquette University’s chilling campaign to revoke the tenure of political science professor John McAdams due to writings on his private blog ensures its place on this year’s list. McAdams criticized a graduate instructor for what he viewed as her inappropriate suppression of certain viewpoints for in-class discussion (one student’s opposition to same-sex marriage in particular), and the instructor came in for heavy criticism. Marquette then suspended McAdams without due process and abruptly cancelled his classes for the next semester. It also publicly insinuated that McAdams violated its harassment policy and was a safety threat to the campus, despite a complete lack of proof for either charge. Marquette’s disregard of due process and its incredible denial that its campaign against McAdams’s tenure implicates free speech or academic freedom in any way should frighten anyone concerned about faculty rights. Indeed, if the university succeeds in removing McAdams, free speech and academic freedom will lose whatever meaning they had at Marquette.

A more recent article by journalist Nico Perrino, on FIRE’s blog site, dated March 25, 2016, bears the title: Marquette Continues to Earn ‘Worst School’ for Free Speech Label With New Punishments for McAdams. Permit me to quote from one very telling paragraph:

As a result of Marquette’s complete disregard for McAdams’ right to free speech and academic freedom, FIRE placed the university on its list of the worst colleges for free speech in each of the last two years. With Marquette’s latest unjust actions against McAdams, the university seems to be angling for permanent residence on our list.

And here’s what the editor of The Academe Blog, the blog of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP), wrote about Marquette University’s decision to fire Professor John McAdams: “This latest development is far more alarming. AAUP regulations, and Marquette’s own policies, explicitly prohibit what Marquette is now doing: punishing a professor for publicly expressing his opinions.”

Or as Professor McAdams himself pithily puts it: “Marquette is an intolerant, politically correct institution whose ‘Catholic mission’ is nothing but a marketing gimmick.”

Professor Anne Hendershott, writing in Crisis magazine, concludes her article, Protecting Students from Catholicism At Marquette (February 16, 2015), with a succinct formulation of the real issue at stake here: “Do faithful Catholics on Catholic campuses have the right to express their support for Catholic teachings on faith and morals? At Marquette, the answer seems to be no.”

What need to be done: disaffiliate the Catholic Church from Marquette University

Your Excellency, I am quite sure that you will concur with the foregoing sentiments regarding freedom of speech and academic freedom, so with your permission, I’d like to move on to the practical question of what should be done to discourage similar violations of students’ and academics’ freedom in the future by other Catholic universities in the United States.

The proper course of action, I believe, is a very drastic one: you need to cut Marquette University loose, by declaring publicly that it is no longer a Catholic university, and that consequently, its theology teachers can no longer be trusted to teach Catholic theology. I say “you” because you’re the only person who can do this, for reasons I’ll discuss below.

“Why take such a severe measure?” you may be asking yourself. “And even if the university has done wrong, shouldn’t it be given a second chance?”

No, it should not. The answer has to do with honesty in advertising. As a Catholic parent, I’d like to explain why.

Honesty in advertising: a story of a Catholic student

Picture the Catholic parents of an 18-year-old Grade 12 student, who will be going to college next year. The parents care deeply about passing on the faith, so they look for a Catholic university where they can send their child. They realize, of course, that many students question their faith in college, but they want to provide their child with a solid grounding in his/her faith – one in which every question posed by an inquiring mind would be competently answered by Catholic priests and teachers, and where intelligent arguments for the Catholic faith could be presented fairly and without distortion.

Now suppose that there were a university which publicly advertised itself as a “Catholic university,” but whose deeds did mot match its words: a university where arguments supporting the Catholic Church’s teaching on faith and morals could not even be discussed without violating its rules of conduct, and where skeptical questions would never be answered from a Catholic perspective, in the classroom. And suppose it was this university to which the above-mentioned parents chose to send their child, in the mistaken belief that their child’s Catholic faith would be nurtured in such an environment? Here’s my question, Your Excellency: what do you think the parents would say, when they finally learned the truth? “We were deceived!” That’s what they’d say. That’s certainly what I would say, if I were the father of that 18-year-old student.

Next question: who do you think those parents would blame, if the university in question were Marquette University? I’ll tell you: they’d blame you. Not the University’s President, Michael Lovell, but you. And they’d be absolutely right.

The buck stops with you, Your Excellency

Perhaps you’re thinking that the parents are being a little unfair, here. As you’ve argued previously, Marquette University is independent of the Archdiocese, and it makes its own hiring decisions. So why should you be held accountable for its un-Catholic behavior?

In order to answer this question, I’d like to quote from Father John Coughlin, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame. In an interview with Zenit News Agency in 2006, Fr. Coughlin explained the essential characteristics of a Catholic university as laid out in canon law and in the 1990 apostolic constitution ‘Ex Corde Ecclesia‘:

From the perspective of canon law, a Catholic university must exhibit at least seven essential characteristics.

First, according to Canon 807, the Catholic university “promotes the deeper culture and full development of the human person in accord with the Church’s teaching office.”

Second, the majority of the faculty members consist of practising Catholics, as explained in Ex Corde Ecclesiae.

Third, Canon 810 states that the president and other officers of a Catholic university have the responsibility to ensure that faculty members are appointed who are “outstanding in their integrity of doctrine and uprightness of life.”

Fourth, the president of the Catholic university must make the profession of faith at the start of his or her term of office, according to Canon 833.

Fifth, the bishops’ conference and the diocesan bishop have the duty and right of ensuring that the principles of Catholic doctrine are faithfully observed.

Sixth, in line with Canon 812, theology teachers in a Catholic university must have a mandate from the local ordinary.

Finally, the use of the title “Catholic” is only with the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority, as outlined in Canon 808.

Your Excellency, you’ve repeatedly declared yourself to be the local ordinary of Marquette University (see here, here and here). That means you can revoke the mandate held by theology teachers at Marquette University, if you wish. Let me make it clear at this point that I’m not accusing the theology teachers of any wrongdoing whatsoever. My point is simply that in an academic environment where arguments in support of Catholic positions on faith and/or morals cannot even be aired, the orthodoxy of theology teachers is moot. If defending the Catholic position on morality contravenes university regulations, then those teachers can no longer be relied on to faithfully transmit Catholic teaching, no matter how orthodox they may be. Revoking their mandate sends a clear signal to parents of prospective students that their sons and daughters cannot expect to hear a cogent public defense of the arguments in support of the Church’s position on faith and morals at Marquette University. That is why it is important.

I’d now like to address the last condition listed by Fr. John Coughlin in the interview I cited above: the use of the title “Catholic” is only with the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority. Who is that authority? I believe it is you, Your Excellency. Permit me to quote a short paragraph from a popular Catholic pamphlet (written in 1992) titled, How to Keep Your University Catholic (The Cardinal Newman Society, Revised Third Edition, 2009) by Rev. Leonard A. Kennedy, C.S.B., Ph.D. (emphases mine):

In some diocesan universities the bishop is chairman of the trustees, in others simply a member of the trustees, and in others not a trustee. But is should make no difference. And it should make little difference whether a university is conducted by a diocese, a group of Catholic laity, a religious congregation, or a board of trustees set up by a religious congregation; for, according to the 1983 Code of Canon Law, a bishop has the duty and right to see that the principles of Catholic doctrine are faithfully observed in all institutions of higher studies in his diocese which call themselves Catholic (canons 810, 814). He can declare a university to be Catholic or no longer Catholic (canon 808) and can withdraw from anyone teaching theological subjects the mandate to do so (canon 812). No doubt these powers should be exercised only after other means of dealing with difficulties are exhausted; these canons are first of all intended to ensure that a Catholic university will consult with the local bishop. Of course, if a bishop has a diocesan university, he could influence it more readily than otherwise.

According to Fr. Leonard Kennedy, a diocesan bishop “can declare a university to be Catholic or no longer Catholic.” Marquette University is located within the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, and you are the Archbishop of Milwaukee. Unlike you, Your Excellency, I have no expertise in canon law. However, I think I’m entitled to conclude that the “competent ecclesiastical authority” referred to in Canon 808 of the Code of Canon Law is you, Your Excellency. Canon 808 states: “Even if it is in fact Catholic, no university is to bear the title or name of Catholic university without the consent of competent ecclesiastical authority.” Your consent – not the President’s, or anyone else’s – is what is required for Marquette University to call itself Catholic.

I hope you can now see why the parents in my story would be fully justified in holding you responsible, if they sent their child to Marquette University and later discovered that it was Catholic in name only.

I’ll let Dr. McAdams have the last word (h/t M.D. Kittle, Watchdog.org, Can Opposing Same-Sex Marriage Get You Fired at Marquette University?, The Daily Signal, November 13, 2015):

“What’s happening at Marquette is what is happening everywhere, but that’s a shame because Marquette claims to be a Catholic university. For heaven’s sake, opposing same-sex marriage ought to be allowed at a Catholic university.”

The ball is in your court, Your Excellency. In Heaven’s name, do something.

Yours sincerely,

Vincent Torley

—————————————————

Postscript – How to defend the Church’s prohibition of “gay marriage” intelligently

The student at the center of this story who argued with his graduate instructor about gay marriage cited studies purporting to show that children raised in same-sex households fared poorly, when compared with children raised by opposite-sex parents. In a similar vein, Professor Anne Hendershott, in her article on the incident, refers to “the newest study by Catholic University sociologist Paul Sullins, which found that in a representative sample of 207,007 children, including 512 with same sex parents, children raised in same sex households were twice as likely to experience emotional problems than children with opposite sex parents.”

In my experience, this line of argument tends to backfire, badly. To put it bluntly, we don’t currently have the kind of rigorous sociological data required to substantiate the conclusion that children raised by same-sex parents fare worse than children raised by opposite-sex parents. The Sullins study, for instance, does indeed show that children who are brought up in same-sex households tend to have more emotional problems, but it adds that this is because they are not biologically related to one or both parents. By contrast, children brought up in opposite-sex households are usually the biological offspring of both their parents. To quote from the study: “Biological relationship, it appears, is both necessary and sufficient to explain the higher risk of emotional problems faced by children with same-sex parents.” Indeed, a gay advocate could argue that the trauma of adoption (rather than the trauma of being raised by same-sex parents) is what accounts for the poor outcomes observed in these children.

A better defense of the traditional doctrine can be made by pointing out that “same-sex relationships, by design, require children to be removed from one or more of their biological parents and raised absent a father or mother,” as a gay man, writing in The Federalist (April 28, 2015), put it recently (I’m Gay, And I Oppose Same-Sex Marriage, by “Paul Rosnick”). One could argue that such an arrangement creates and perpetuates an injustice, and “Rosnick” agrees: “That hardly seems fair.”

However, in my own humble opinion, the best way to defend the Church’s position on gay marriage is by arguing as follows:

(1) Marriage, by its very nature, demands life-long sexual fidelity on the part of the parents, for the successful rearing of children. (There have been societies which tolerated polygamy, in the past; but that in no way negates the fact that children thrive when raised by parents in a monogamous relationship.)

(2) Gay partnerships do not require life-long sexual fidelity: indeed, most gay couples reject the very notion as antiquated and repressive. (See The Dirty Little Secret: Most Gay Couples Aren’t Monogamous, by Hanna Rosin, in Slate, June 26, 2013.)

(3) Therefore marriage is fundamentally different from a gay partnership.

The issue at stake here is a very simple one: sexual monogamy. Sexual monogamy is required in order to achieve one of the chief goals of marriage; however, sexual monogamy is not required in order to realize the goals of a gay partnership. The two are completely different. When a State legislates that gays can marry, basically it is saying that monogamy is not an essential or even a desirable ingredient of marriage. Cheating is OK; indeed, the very concept of “cheating” no longer makes any sense. This is the “brave new world” that gay marriage has brought us: a world where children in public schools can no longer be taught that they should be faithful to their spouse, as gay couples might find that offensive.

What Americans really believe, however, is something quite different: a 2013 Gallup poll of 1,535 adults found that only 6% approved of married men and women having affairs, while 91% condemned it as morally wrong. At the same time, the poll found that a majority of respondents (59%) considered gay relationships morally acceptable.

A skilled teacher of Catholic doctrine could then pose the following rhetorical question to a philosophy class: is it really consistent for someone to (a) condemn adultery for heterosexual couples; (b) approve of same-sex couples having affairs; and (c) insist that there is no fundamental difference between man-woman marriages and gay partnerships?

Comments
Me_Think, As I recall, one of the studies was done in the period shortly after the threat of AIDS had really begun to sink in, and the recognition of this threat did have an effect on gay promiscuity as represented by the study, but not nearly so much as you might think. I believe that the finding was that in the wake of the AIDS epidemic, the number of average partners for gay males decreased from 70-75 to about 50. Also, some of the studies I was referencing in prior comments were done in just the past few years, and the comments I mentioned were made by gay persons about gay promiscuity and open relationships were also made in the last couple years. For example, here's an excerpt from an article written on the subject by a gay man giving his perspective in 2013:
No matter when a gay man enters into the land of all things boyfriend, one particular question never ceases to arise: Is it possible for two gay men to be in a long-term relationship and remain monogamous? The short answer? Of course it is. But for the frustrated but hopeful “monogay,” it often seems nearly impossible to find a homo couple who have surpassed the five-year mark without opening up their relationship in one way or another. [Heks: Notice how this coincides with the study I mentioned of over 150 gay men where after 5 years 100% of the couples had developed an open relationship] Naturally, each couple is different, complete with a brow-furrowing set of rules that they have constructed over the years. Whether its “playing” as a couple only or allowing for out-of-town flings or no-kissing-allowed or sexual-position-specific extracurricular hookups, one thing is for certain: Monogamy it is not. Assuming that most of these gay couples started out with at least the attempt of keeping it in their pants outside the relationship, why does monogamy appear to be so difficult for gay couples to maintain? There is no societal or religious pressure, no relationship archetype or historical expectation for a gay man to be monogamously coupled. Unlike heterosexual relationships, gay relationships form simply because two people want to be together. A heterosexual union may be rooted in religious and cultural bylaws that reinforce monogamy long after the excitement has left the bedroom. Straight couples are forced to push past the immediate gratification of sexual desire and find more meaningful forms of pleasure and release. If they give into the carnal pleasures of sex outside monogamy, they risk the chance of losing their coveted place among the moral elite. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tyler-curry/how-do-gays-crack-the-monogamy-code_b_3478177.html
Now, of course there is going to be the occasional exception to the rule, but the percentage of gay male couples that remain strictly monogamous after the 5-year mark appears by all accounts, from both straight and gay sources, to be vanishingly small. Furthermore, I believe there was a video posted on this site a while back of a lesbian activist who gave a speech to a large crowd of LGBT activists on the issue of gay marriage in which she said something like: 'I think it goes it without saying that gay people should be able to get married. But I think it also goes without saying that the institution of marriage shouldn't exist.' Hearing the audio of this was much more instructive than simply reading it, because when she said that it goes without saying that gay people should be able to get married, the crowd was largely silent, but when she said that the institution of marriage shouldn't exist the crowd broke out into loud applause and cheering. Of course, having said all this, I want to make it clear that I have no opinion one way or the other on the politics of gay marriage. I have an opinion on the morality of the practice of homosexuality (not on the orientation of homosexuality) in the same way I have an opinion on the morality of the practice of heterosexual premarital sex (but not on the desire for it), but I have zero interest in trying legislate my moral views or force anyone else to live by Biblical standards. That is a choice every individual has to make for themselves. I say this to make it clear that I have no reason to attempt to marshal false evidence against the potentially destructive nature of a homosexual lifestyle, because I'm not attempting to argue for some political position or the enactment of some piece of legislation, and because my views on the moral status of practicing a homosexual lifestyle is not based on this kind of secular evidence.HeKS
April 4, 2016
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HeKS @ 58
In addition to the open nature of the relationships, another constant feature among gay couples surveyed in these studies was that this “cheating”, whether it was partner-approved or not, took place with numerous different partners per year, sometimes a dozen, sometimes more than a hundred. .......One could also try to assail the findings of these studies, and perhaps they could be correct to do so in some cases, but it would seem pretty odd that we should have such highly consistent findings from both academic and popular sources, and from both gay and straight sources, and spanning four decades, if this is all just some big misunderstanding.
AFAIK (I don't have any research to quote) Gays are super aware of HIV risk due to multiple partners so I am not sure if the research quoting 100 partners was done correctly. Being Gay was a rebellious stance in 1970 and 80s before HIV awareness spread, so it could be that heterosexual rebellious youth too were included in the old studies. Old studies would reflect the attitude of sexually adventurous individuals - not necessarily Gays. Recent studies should be given more weightage when studying Gays. Without analyzing the scientific studies, I can't be sure if they truly reflect the attitude of Gays, but over the last few years many powerful and popular people are openly gay - this is the right time to carry out research on gays. I would be surprised if modern studies continue to show high open arrangements.Me_Think
April 4, 2016
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VJTorley: However, in my own humble opinion, the best way to defend the Church’s position on gay marriage is by arguing as follows: (1) Marriage, by its very nature, demands life-long sexual fidelity on the part of the parents, for the successful rearing of children. (There have been societies which tolerated polygamy, in the past; but that in no way negates the fact that children thrive when raised by parents in a monogamous relationship.) (2) Gay partnerships do not require life-long sexual fidelity: indeed, most gay couples reject the very notion as antiquated and repressive. (See The Dirty Little Secret: Most Gay Couples Aren’t Monogamous, by Hanna Rosin, in Slate, June 26, 2013.) (3) Therefore marriage is fundamentally different from a gay partnership.
Let's assume that the two premises are correct. I don't see how one can conclude anything beyond: in general gay partnership isn't monogamous and therefor in general unsuitable for marriage combined with raising children. However that is no basis to deny marriage to a gay couple who have every intent of life-long monogamy — sorry guys, we don't believe you because ... And then there are gay couples who don't want to raise children.Origenes
April 4, 2016
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One factor to consider is that now, as opposed to the '80s, it is easy for same-sex couples to be open with the rest of society about their relationships, and thus have a more normal experience in comparison to opposite sex couples. FWIW, I work in small rural town 30 miles or so from some larger cities. We have a number of people in known same-sex relationships (some married now that is possible) that are well known and prominent in town, and the city in general has been very accepting. I would think that this, as opposed to the opprobrium and need for secrecy in the past, would change the dynamics of their relationships for the better.Aleta
April 4, 2016
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Me_Think I'm going from memory here, because I don't have time to look this stuff up right now, but one of the examples I explicitly mentioned in 49 was a study done in the 80's by psychologists who were a gay couple. The study included over 150 gay men in relationships from a year to a few decades. Only a handful of the couples (maybe 6 or 7) had monogamous relationships, and all of those couples had been together less than 5 years. For the couples who had been together longer than 5 years, 100% of the couples had some kind of arrangement in place for sexual encounters outside the relationship. In addition to the open nature of the relationships, another constant feature among gay couples surveyed in these studies was that this "cheating", whether it was partner-approved or not, took place with numerous different partners per year, sometimes a dozen, sometimes more than a hundred. So again, it needs to be made clear here that when we're talking about "cheating" between the gay and straight couples, it's hard to compare apples to apples. We're not talking about one person in the relationship at some point secretly carrying on an illicit affair (which might itself be called a relationship) with one other person outside a marriage (not that I'm in any way condoning that either). We're talking about habitually having sexual encounters outside the relationship with a multitude of different partners per year, year after year, and often with the full consent of the partner, who is often doing the same thing himself. Now, someone might offer some anecdotal evidence that this doesn't match their experience with their gay friends, but then, numerous sources touching on this issue have included statements from gay persons explicitly stating that they hide the open nature of their relationship from those outside the gay community, and that this aspect of gay relationships doesn't really get discussed much, so I think the anecdotal evidence against the promiscuity of gay male couples may need to be taken with an even larger grain of salt than anecdotal evidence usually requires (and I could offer anecdotal evidence from people I know confirming the findings of these studies, but won't bother). One could also try to assail the findings of these studies, and perhaps they could be correct to do so in some cases, but it would seem pretty odd that we should have such highly consistent findings from both academic and popular sources, and from both gay and straight sources, and spanning four decades, if this is all just some big misunderstanding.HeKS
April 4, 2016
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HeKS @ 55
By the way, when I was looking into this issue I found the same results from about a dozen different studies, articles and surveys spanning the last 40 years, and the two studies you mention were not among the sources.
I didn't pick those studies- it is in VJT's slate article link. The slate refers to the ncbi research as 'The Gay Couples Study'. The Slate article in turn refers to gawker article, which again refers to the same ncbi article as 'The Gay Study' ! The only scientific study doing the rounds is this ncbi study. How many of those 12 studies that you found are scientific studies ?Me_Think
April 4, 2016
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I know quite a few gay couples, and not one of them is in an open relationship. And I know quite a few - a lot - of heterosexual couples who have not been faithful to each other. My experience, anecdotal as it may be, is that there is not a difference in regards to commitment and fidelity between the two situations.Aleta
April 4, 2016
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Me_Think, By the way, when I was looking into this issue I found the same results from about a dozen different studies, articles and surveys spanning the last 40 years, and the two studies you mention were not among the sources.HeKS
April 4, 2016
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Me_Think
I want to emphasize one point again : Fidelity is not a by product of sexual orientation, it depends on how much a person loves and respects his/her partner, and sexual orientation is not a learned trait!!
The issue I have with this statement is that it implies there is parity of views on non-monogamy as "cheating" between straight and gay couples. Part of the point that has been made is that the drastic difference in "cheating" between straight and gay couples derives in no small part from a very different view about what constitutes "cheating" and the openness of the parties to their partner having sexual encounters outside the relationship. Loving and respecting your partner is going to have little impact on your sexual activities outside the relationship if neither partner views strict monogamy as a sine qua non of loving and respectful relationships. Also, I don't recall saying anything about sexual orientation being a learned trait, so I'm not sure why you're saying that to me. Nonetheless, the truth of your statement would be at least somewhat dependent on how much you want to scrutinize what someone's "true" sexual orientation is vs. the orientation of a lifestyle they might live for an extended time but perhaps not permanently.HeKS
April 4, 2016
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HeKS @ 49 Everyone goes back to the 1970s voluntary questionnaire study by Pepper Schwartz and 2005 study (“Relationship Characteristics and Motivations behind Agreements among Gay Male Couples: Differences by Agreement Type and Couple Serostatus”). VJT had quoted articles in comment # 42 in which characters in the article again quote the 1970s and 2005 studies! There seems to be more anecdotal 'evidence' of gay promiscuity than actual research. As I have pointed out in comment # 25, these studies are not representative of Gays as the Sampling method used is definitely not random; there is also a massive difference of around 40% in 'open' agreement between these studies. It should be noted that even adventurous gays (those who try out gay relationship for fun for short period, despite a heterosexual leaning) are classified as Gays. AFAIK, no one has shown a single research which is not dated and which uses sampling method which represents the Gay population. I guess Tim Cook has to sponsor such a research. I want to emphasize one point again : Fidelity is not a by product of sexual orientation, it depends on how much a person loves and respects his/her partner, and sexual orientation is not a learned trait!!Me_Think
April 4, 2016
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Vjt: "I’m utterly amazed that you continue to question my assertion that most gay couples are in open relationships. Gays themselves admit it. See this article in the Daily Beast (January 1, 2016) by Nico Lang:" And blacks are violent, Scotts are cheap and Jews are evil. Any group of people from a group do not speak for the entire group. I thought that you would be aware of the danger of generalizations.Indiana Effigy
April 4, 2016
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KF: "IE, he who would snatch my means of bread without just cause would steal from me my life; he who would snatch my conscience, would steal and so damn — I mean that in its proper sense — my soul." If I wanted to hear a sermon, I would go to church. Your evasion and equivocation on the question are duly noted.Indiana Effigy
April 4, 2016
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Vjt "Where are the guidelines for staff teaching at Marquette University, stating that they may never name students on their private blog, and that they face termination if they do so?" I am pretty sure that the guidelines also do not say that you can not force students to attend class naked, but I am sure that he would be fired for that.Indiana Effigy
April 4, 2016
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I have to agree with vjtorley in being surprised that anyone is questioning the fact that gay relationships (particularly gay male relationships) are massively promiscuous. I don't have the time or interest to re-find all the articles I've read on the subject, but I was looking into this a while ago and there have been numerous studies done on this issue since the 70's, with several of those studies being done by gay researchers, and every one has shown a huge disparity between gay and straight couples in terms of monogamy. In some cases, I'd say that vjtorley's numbers are actually low. As I recall, the finding of one of the studies was that of all the gay couples surveyed, either one or both parties engaged in sexual encounters outside the relationship in a high percentage of the couples right from the start, but after the 5-year mark, 100% of the couples had at least one person who had engaged in sexual encounters outside the relationship. In another case there was a survey asking about the number of different sexual partners a person had, with the highest bracket being several hundreds of partners. For numerous respondents in the gay community, this was not sufficient, and a request was made to have an 'over 1000' category added. Those are just a couple of examples. And again, many of these studies were initiated, conducted and put out by members within the gay community, and nobody was ashamed it, so it's not like these were pieces of anti-gay propaganda or anything. From interviews I've read I've seen no evidence that the virtual non-existence of absolute monogamy among the gay male community is something that they are ashamed of. If anything, the attitude has seemed to be that the problem lies with anybody who thinks such a lack of monogamy is a problem. Anyway, again, I'm not going to bother to go find this stuff again, so people are free to believe it or not or post some kind of contradictory claims, but this is stuff I consistently - even universally - found when looking into this issue from multiple sources, including from gay sources.HeKS
April 4, 2016
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tjguy @ 47,
I also see persecution coming for those who remain faithful to biblical views. Maybe not physical persecution, but ridicule, hatred, job discrimination, economic embargoes, etc
Yes. It looks like persecution is coming and to some extent is already here. Just ask the Little Sisters of the Poor. When we are persecuted, we must remember what Jesus said about that:
Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you. -- Mt 5:11-12 If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It is to fulfill the word that is written in their law, ‘They hated me without a cause.’ -- John 15:18-25
harry
April 3, 2016
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Harry @ 44
Regardless of what Listecki does, Marquette is no longer a Catholic university. Every orthodox Catholic realizes that. The real question is how long will the faithful take our radically secularized bishops seriously? They are dooming themselves to irrelevancy, at least in the eyes of genuine Catholics.
Very true! At least it is good to have this fact out in the open. I hope that many Catholic parents will realize the danger of sending their kids to this university - at least the ones who care about this issue. I think most parents are a bit wary of the effect university may have on their kids. If they are not well prepared before they go, it is very difficult to stand up to the harassment and liberal lies the professors and educators will try to brainwash them with. I'm afraid though that the strategy of changing the world through university education is working quite well as every year the schools put out more and more liberal minded students. These students are less and less tolerant of opposing views and especially harbor ill will toward conservative views. I do not see this trend ending and I see it leading to America's ruin if it does not end. I also see persecution coming for those who remain faithful to biblical views. Maybe not physical persecution, but ridicule, hatred, job discrimination, economic embargoes, etc. They are succeeding in ruining the US. We can no longer afford to be silent and ignore this stuff. I appreciate the professor for standing up for his beliefs and for freedom of speech. I think they should go after the people who sent the threatening e-mails as opposed to the professor who was simply standing up for freedom of speech and Catholic morals. One good thing is that sometimes, they come back to their roots later in life when they realize that what they have been taught at college just doesn't cut it.tjguy
April 3, 2016
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Me_Think: Would you exclude couples from marriage if they are unable to conceive for various medical reasons? Homosexuality is not deliberate.Gays are not out to destabilise the society ! This is really stupid. Really. Does the question really presuppose a government test of both partners for fertility before granting of all marriage licenses, no exceptions? Get real. Also you seem to skirt the conundrum of matrimony as it would apply to a male couple. You chicken out of the logical disconnection. And never mind the conundrum of leftists still verbalizing the male-male oral sex act in pejorative fashion when expressing outrage at other males, and the left-of-center males I know admitting of their continuing stiff aversion to other male homosexual practices. The whole scenario is bizarre, and children are to be raised in this bizarro environment. No question about it. Western civilization has embarked on a mission to inform the generations to come that marriage is something that it is not and never has been. In other words, vows are to be discarded. You guys were given the goodwill by many, myself included, to establish a legal category for same sex coupling with all of the privileges you could want. But selfishly you have put the culture into a risky experimental state, and there are plenty of us brave enough to point it out.groovamos
April 3, 2016
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The Strange Life and Death of Dr Turing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyusnGbBSHEGaryGaulin
April 2, 2016
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vjtorley @43
I’m not defending Dr. McAdams’ decision to name the teaching assistant.
A teaching assistant shouldn't be doing or saying things in the classroom that they wouldn't be proud to have made public. Regardless of what Listecki does, Marquette is no longer a Catholic university. Every orthodox Catholic realizes that. The real question is how long will the faithful take our radically secularized bishops seriously? They are dooming themselves to irrelevancy, at least in the eyes of genuine Catholics.harry
April 2, 2016
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ellazimm, Yes, I am - especially when the student in question was also a teaching assistant, wielding power over the students in her charge. And I would add that as a matter of principle, reasons for termination, no matter how "obvious" they may appear to some, should always be stated in writing. Once again, I'm not defending Dr. McAdams' decision to name the teaching assistant. But I do think that as a matter of law and as a matter of principle, his firing was unjust. The man, I might add, had taught for 40 years, and is now 70 years old.vjtorley
April 2, 2016
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Me_Think: I'm utterly amazed that you continue to question my assertion that most gay couples are in open relationships. Gays themselves admit it. See this article in the Daily Beast (January 1, 2016) by Nico Lang:
Over the past decade and a half, studies from San Francisco State University and Alliant International University have found that around half of gay relationships are open... I’d say that the Alliant and SFU figures are a tad low, at least for gays. I can’t speak for lesbian couples, but few queer men I know — including myself — are in relationships that are exclusively, 100-percent monogamous. Some couples occasionally invite a third into the bedroom for a night of play, while others independently arrange their own casual hookups. Some men might even have long-term partners outside their primary relationship. In a 2013 column for Slate, Hanna Rosin called non-monogamy the gay community’s “dirty little secret,” citing a study from the ’80s, which showed that up to 82 percent of gay couples had sex with other people. That number sounds about right to me, but here’s the thing: It’s not dirty and it’s hardly a secret, at least if you know where to look.
And here's an article by Scott James, writing in the New York Times (January 28, 2010) on the :
New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians in the Bay Area. The Gay Couples Study has followed 556 male couples for three years — about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners. That consent is key. “With straight people, it’s called affairs or cheating,” said Colleen Hoff, the study’s principal investigator, “but with gay people it does not have such negative connotations.”
See? Gay couples really do have a different set of norms from straight married couples, regarding fidelity. How many heterosexual married couples do you know who engage in threesomes, seek casual hook-ups or even engage in long-term affairs, with the full knowledge of the other spouse? They're extremely rare, and I wouldn't call them married, anyway. Marriage is an exclusive sexual commitment. Please don't try dragging it down to the level of a relationship that includes threesomes and other bizarre antics. I find that not only offensive, but also demeaning of the noble institution of marriage.vjtorley
April 2, 2016
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vjtorley #40
Where are the guidelines for staff teaching at Marquette University, stating that they may never name students on their private blog, and that they face termination if they do so?
Without their consent? Are you seriously asking that?ellazimm
April 2, 2016
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Indiana Effigy, Where are the guidelines for staff teaching at Marquette University, stating that they may never name students on their private blog, and that they face termination if they do so? And even if such guidelines existed, did they exist at the time when Dr. McAdams wrote his blog?vjtorley
April 2, 2016
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Me_Think: Let's get one thing straight. This isn't a post about Dr. McAdams. It's a post about whether a university can continue to call itself Catholic if its harassment policy prevents its own staff (and for that matter, students) from defending Catholic doctrine on morality. It should be obvious that a university which muzzles people like that doesn't deserve to be called Catholic. Regarding Dr. McAdams's blog: personally, I don't like the fact that he named a teaching assistant. (You'll notice that I haven't named her, and I really wish you hadn't either; she has a life of her own, and she should be left alone.) I also agree that Dr. McAdams failed to mention certain pertinent facts regarding the student's failing grades, which he could have and should have mentioned, as well as the fact that the teaching assistant subsequently tried to address his argument in class. However, none of these "offenses" warrants depriving a professor of tenure, let alone firing him. There's no law against naming a teaching assistant in one's blog. The claim in the letter you cited above that Dr. McAdams had received repeated warnings in the past is simply false: see my comment #4 above. The claim that Dr. McAdams "chose to shame and intimidate" is not only false but defamatory, as it ascribes to a tenured professor a malicious intention to encourage violence and harassment, despite his repeated avowals on his blog that he intended no such thing. Finally, there remains the ugly fact that the teaching assistant did say to the student in a recorded conversation: "In this class, homophobic comments, racist comments, will not be tolerated." That was an ugly attempt to shut down discussion of a moral issue which, at a Catholic university, staff and students should feel free to discuss at all times. It is to the teaching assistant's credit that she later allowed a discussion of the issue; but the fact that it was shut down, and that the university's harassment policy enabled the discussion to be shut down, are the real issues here. Marquette University is an intellectually stifling environment, which I could not and would not recommend to any Catholic parent of a prospective student. Given the existence of such a hostile learning environment, Marquette University has long ago forfeited the right to call itself Catholic.vjtorley
April 2, 2016
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kairofocus @ 37, Very well put. Choosing to persist in disregarding the Truth Himself or the truth about the human nature He bestowed upon us always has terrible consequences in this life and the next.harry
April 2, 2016
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Harry, go back to the full original word, porneia, sexual immorality . . . which takes in any and all forms of specifically wrongful, perverted, irresponsible, evil and destructive sexual behaviours. The real question that lurks is, are we responsibly free rational creatures made in the image of God. That image is the only sound foundation for both reason and morality, and it is by dressing up destructive worldviews in the lab coat that both have been disregarded far and wide. And now we have sown the wind and will reap the ruinous whirlwind. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2016
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IE, he who would snatch my means of bread without just cause would steal from me my life; he who would snatch my conscience, would steal and so damn -- I mean that in its proper sense -- my soul. There are moral, natural law -- laws of nature and of nature's God -- limits to what an employer or the state may justly require, and the specifics of the case are less central than the principle that lurks here. It is the violation or utter disregard of that principle that flips a huge red warning flag. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2016
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Me_Think @ 26,
Every religion has their own designer. The instruction manual of Islam says polygamy is accepted. Are you okay with that?
Muslims also believe they have to kill anyone who decides to renounce Islam and become, say, a Christian or an atheist. Are you okay with that? Islam is a perverse ideology of conquest disguised as a religion. They kill homosexuals. Are you okay with that?
If you believe human nature was designed then Homosexuality too was deisgned
Some people are born blind, but that doesn't make being blind a legitimate alternative lifestyle.
You seems to think gay/lesbians are deliberately deviant!
I think it is possible that some people are born with the inclination to homosexuality. I think others develop that inclination by their own choices. Once someone's sexual orientation is established, however that happened, the state of their orientation, whether it is natural (heterosexual) or unnatural (homosexual), is not what is immoral. Homosexual orientation is not sinful in itself anymore than is heterosexual orientation. What is sinful for both homosexuals and heterosexuals is fornication.harry
April 2, 2016
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KF, The reason for dismissal is given below. Judge for yourself
... Had you exercised due care and standards of professional responsibility in keeping with University faculty, you would have found that critical information was stated falsely and/or omitted in your blog post. By way of example, you implied that as a result of the exchange you had recounted the student had dropped the class. You wrote as follows in your November 9 blog post: She went on: In this class, homophobic comments, racist comments, will not be tolerated." She then invited the student to drop the class. Which the student is doing. That is false. As you knew or should have known [redacted], the student told the University three days after withdrawing that he had done so because he was getting an "F" at mid-term. He further specifically agreed that his grade fairly reflected his performance and had nothing to do with his political or personal beliefs. Similarly, by leaving out any reference to Ms. Abbate's follow-up class discussion in which she acknowledged and addressed the student's objection to gay marriage, you created a false impression of her conduct and an inaccurate account of what occurred. You either were recklessly unaware of what happened in the follow-up class, or you elected not to include these facts in your Internet story. Likewise, when you criticized the Department Chair for not taking action, "The chair, Nancy Show [sic], pretty much blew off the issue." you once again either were recklessly unaware that the student did not give Dr. Snow the same information he gave you -namely a tape of the conversation- or again you elected not to include these facts in your Internet story. Further, in asserting that the Department Chair "pretty much blew off the issue," you either were recklessly unaware of, or you ignored, the fact that two days after meeting with the Chair, the student wrote to thank her and the Assistant Chair for their time and attention to his concerns: I would like to thank you for the time you devoted to my complaint on Tuesday, in both of our meetings. I would like you to know that I intend to heed your advice and stay enrolled in the course. Thank you again for your time, and I wish you nothing but the best of luck with your research. Please feel free to share this message with Dr.Luft. Moreover, you stated in your Internet story only that the College of Arts & Sciences "sent" the student to the Department with his complaint. Once again you either were recklessly unaware of, or you ignored, the fact that the student was expressly told he could come back to the College if he was "dissatisfied" with how the Department handled his concerns. For these and other reasons that follow you have done a great disservice to Marquette, its faculty, students and alumni....
As applied in the current case, it is vital for our university and our profession that graduate student instructors learn their craft as teachers of sometimes challenging and difficult students. Great teachers develop over time; many benefit from experienced mentors who share hard-earned insights. Thus, graduate student instructors should expect appropriate and constructive feedback in order to improve their teaching skills. Multiple internal avenues of review were available to you if you believed a situation had occurred between a graduate student instructor and an undergraduate student that called for a corrective response. Instead, you chose to shame and intimidate with an Internet story that was incompetent, inaccurate, and lacking in integrity, respect for other's opinions, and appropriate restraint.
Me_Think
April 2, 2016
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KF, you are skirting the issue. An employer has the right to set behaviour guidelines for their employees.If an employee choses not to follow those requirements, they can be terminated. This has nothing to do with academic or religious freedoms.Indiana Effigy
April 2, 2016
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