Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An open letter to BSU President Jo Ann Gora

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Dear President Gora,

As an intelligent design advocate (Web page here) who contributes regularly to the ID Website Uncommon Descent, I would like to thank you for your recent statement to the faculty and staff of Ball State University, which clarifies your university’s official position regarding the teaching of intelligent design theory.

I hope you will not object if I ask you a few questions which your own faculty staff might want to pose to you, in future meetings.

Question 1

You referred to “intelligent design” in your email to Ball State University faculty and staff, without saying what you meant by the term. So I’d like to ask: exactly how do you define “intelligent design”? Specifically: does it include the cosmological fine-tuning argument, which purports to show that the the laws and constants of Nature were designed by some intelligent being? Does it include the scientific theory proposed by physicist Silas Beane (see here and here) that the universe we live in is a giant computer simulation? (The same idea was proposed back in 2003 in an influential paper by the Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom.) Does it include the theory that life on Earth was seeded by aliens, at some point in the past (never mind where they came from)? Does it include the evolutionary theory championed by Alfred Russel Wallace, who fully accepted evolution by natural selection as a fact which explained the diversity of living things, but who also believed on empirical grounds that unguided natural processes were, by themselves, unable to account for: (a) the origin of life; (b) the appearance of sentience in animals; and (c) the emergence of human intelligence?

Would a science lecturer at your university get into trouble for discussing these theories in a science classroom? Where do you draw the line, President Gora? What’s “in” and what’s “out,” at your university?

The reason why I ask is that the official definition of intelligent design at the Intelligent Design Website Uncommon Descent, on a Webpage entitled ID Defined, is quite broad:

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.

In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose.

If you construe “intelligent design” more narrowly, could you please tell us what you mean by the term?

Question 2

Would you agree that the discussion of a bad scientific theory – even one whose claims has been soundly refuted by scientific testing, such as aether theories in physics, the phlogiston theory in chemistry, and vitalism in biology – can be productive and genuinely illuminating, in a university science classroom? The history of science, after all, is littered with dead ends and blind alleys, and scientists have learned a lot about the world – and about how to do science properly – from their past mistakes. Would you therefore agree, then, that even if the theory of intelligent design were found to be riddled with factual or theoretical flaws on a scientific level, that would not be a sufficient reason by itself to keep discussion of intelligent design out of the science classroom?

Question 3

If you answered “Yes” to question 2, as I expect you did, then I shall assume that for you, the decisive reason for keeping intelligent design out of the science classroom is that it is essentially religious in nature. As you wrote in your email: “Teaching religious ideas in a science course is clearly not appropriate.”

I would now invite you to consider the following two quotes by the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, an outspoken opponent of religion and a life-long atheist, as Jane Gregory notes in her biography, Fred Hoyle’s Universe (Oxford University Press, 2005, ISBN 0 780198 507918, p. 143), and to indicate: (i) whether you think they are religious claims, and (ii) whether you think a discussion of their scientific merits belongs in a science classroom at your university.

A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.
(The Universe: Past and Present Reflections, Engineering and Science, November 1981, p. 12.)

If one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.
(Hoyle, Fred, Evolution from Space, Omni Lecture, Royal Institution, London, 12 January 1982; Evolution from Space (1982) pp. 27–28 ISBN 0-89490-083-8; Evolution from Space: A Theory of Cosmic Creationism (1984) ISBN 0-671-49263-2)

I am of course well aware of the scientific literature relating to “Hoyle’s fallacy”, which Professor Richard Dawkins has taken great pains to refute. (Biologist Stephen Jones’ article, Fred Hoyle about the 747, the tornado and the junkyard, contains a very fair-minded discussion of the relevant issues, for those who are interested.) The point I’m making here is that if Hoyle’s claims are scientifically refutable, as neo-Darwinian biologists assert, then surely a discussion of the flaws in those claims belongs in a university science classroom. But since Hoyle referred to his own theory as “intelligent design,” it follows that a discussion of the flaws in intelligent design belongs in a university science classroom.

Now I hope you can see where I’m heading with this line of inquiry. If the discussion of the flaws in intelligent design theory belongs in a university science classroom, it logically follows that discussion of the theory itself belongs in a university science classroom. But that contradicts your email, which states that “[d]iscussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses,” clearly implying that a discussion of intelligent design has no place in a science classroom. Elsewhere in your email, you state that “intelligent design is not appropriate content for science courses,” which once again implies that any discussion of intelligent design is off-bounds at a Ball State University science course.

Indeed, a consistent application of your injunction to faculty staff to keep intelligent design out of the science classroom would mean that any science professor who gave a lecture exposing the errors in intelligent design theory would be in violation of your university’s official policy. Is that correct, President Gora?

Question 4

In your email, you state that “Intelligent design is overwhelmingly deemed by the scientific community as a religious belief and not a scientific theory.” I’m sure you can cite court decisions to back up that assertion of yours – notably the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court case of 2005.

I wonder if you have heard of the late Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. In a letter sent to the Hope College Alumni Banquet where he was awarded a Distinguished Alumni Award in May 2005, Dr. Richard Smalley wrote:

Recently I have gone back to church regularly with a new focus to understand as best I can what it is that makes Christianity so vital and powerful in the lives of billions of people today, even though almost 2000 years have passed since the death and resurrection of Christ.

Although I suspect I will never fully understand, I now think the answer is very simple: it’s true. God did create the universe about 13.7 billion years ago, and of necessity has involved Himself with His creation ever since. The purpose of this universe is something that only God knows for sure, but it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life. We are somehow critically involved in His purpose. Our job is to sense that purpose as best we can, love one another, and help Him get that job done. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

I’m quite sure you will tell me that most biologists and chemists disagree with the late Nobel Prize Laureate, Dr. Richard Smalley, on whether the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution can account for the origin and diversity of life. Be that as it may, what interests me is that Dr. Smalley evidently felt that the question of whether life and the universe were intelligently designed was scientifically tractable. What’s more, he felt that science had already found the answer: “it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life.” That’s intelligent design.

So my question to you is: if a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry thought that intelligent design belongs in the category of “science”, what makes you so sure that it belongs in the category of religion? For that matter, was the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, being religious when he argued on scientific grounds that “superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology”? Is that what you are saying?

Finally, I note that you remark in your email that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory” (italics mine – VJT). However, the scientific community’s very rejection intelligent design as a scientific theory logically implies that it is a scientific theory – even if a bad one. Are you prepared to grant this point?

Question 5

In your email, you state:

Discussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses. However, even in such contexts, faculty must avoid endorsing one point of view over others.

I’d now like you to consider the hypothetical case of a humanities or social science lecturer at your university who is asked a very direct, personal question by a student: “Do you believe in intelligent design?” Let’s suppose that the lecturer answers like this:

Personally, I do. I should point out in all fairness that the vast majority of scientists currently reject intelligent design, and if you want to know why, then I’d invite you to have a look at the official statements on the Websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Astronomical Society, and the American Physical Society. I’ve spent some time sifting the arguments on both sides. I’m not a trained scientist; but I do have some (philosophical) training in spotting a bad argument. In my humble opinion, the scientific arguments against intelligent design are not very convincing; at most, they merely refute some of the more naive versions of intelligent design. Regarding the arguments in favor of intelligent design, I do think they raise some very real questions which science has not yet answered. Now you might say that some day it will answer those questions. And maybe you’re right. My own opinion – and I’d invite you to read the best books on both sides in order to arrive at yours – is that we already have enough information at our fingertips to conclude that most likely, the Universe itself – and life – was a put-up job. Who or what the “Putter-Upper” is, I leave for you to speculate, if you agree with my line of thinking.

In answering in this way, has the lecturer said anything that is “out of line” with your university’s policy on the separation of church and state? It should be noted that up to this point, the lecturer has not even expressed a belief in theism, let alone the tenets of any particular religion. Saying that the universe was designed (passive voice) says nothing, by itself, about the identity of the Designer.

Now suppose that the inquisitive student presses further: “Do you believe the Designer of life and the universe to be God?” and the lecturer answers, “Yes, that is my personal belief.” Does that answer qualify as “endorsing one point of view over others” – something which your email expressly prohibits? If not, why not?

What if, instead, the lecturer had answered the student’s question as follows: “I’m an atheist, and I think intelligent design is a load of pseudo-scientific religious claptrap.” Would such an answer constitute “endorsing one point of view over others”? If not, why not?

Well, I think five questions are quite enough for one day. Over to you, President Gora. Thank you taking the time and trouble to read this letter.

Yours sincerely,

Vincent Torley

Comments
'At that point, I can’t help but feel that it’s become a complete waste of time and energy to continue, so I say goodbye and leave them to their illusions. :-) But with a flea in their ear, Joe, and no smiley! It would be a sore loss to a lot of us, I'm sure, if you were to become, Mr Nice Guy, in all circumstances. Don't do it. I beseech you!Axel
August 7, 2013
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'At that point, I can’t help but feel that it’s become a complete waste of time and energy to continue, so I say goodbye and leave them to their illusions. :-) But with a flea in their ear, Joe, and no smiley! It would be a sore loss to a lot of us, I'm sure, if you were to become, Mr Nice Guy, in all circumstances. Don't do it, I beg you!Axel
August 7, 2013
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Beats trying to think of a rational response, hands down. Top man, Lar!Axel
August 7, 2013
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BA, Your attempt to sidetrack the discussion is noted, laughed at, and forgotten.LarTanner
August 7, 2013
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LarTanner, did you intend to write your post or was it just the result of some random motion of molecules in your brain? And if intentionality and free will does not exist in your worldview does that make you an automaton who as no choice but to post insane nonsense??bornagain77
August 7, 2013
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Joe @ 110: This is a disappointing answer if this is all you intend to provide. Shouldn't the theory of intelligent design say something more about how the coding nucleotide was designed and manufactured? Was the entire thing designed at one time or in stages? Was everything designed or only some key components? Were any technologies involved in the design? Were there "earlier versions" or "false starts"? As far as the concept of intention goes, how does one discern intention? Can a biological system work yet not be what was intended originally? Can it 'succeed' yet fail to meet the intention or fail to meet it fully? Can intention change? You must agree that a theory of intelligent design should be able to address such questions.LarTanner
August 7, 2013
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vjtorley @ 105 Hi vjtorley - thanks for the response.
1. You’ve conceded for argument’s sake that “Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous.” Does that mean that you don’t regard it as science, either? If you accept that Darwinism cannot truly be described as a scientific theory, then you are going against the consensus of scholars and experts in the field of science” that you appealed to in rejecting ID as a science. But if you think that Darwinism can be legitimately described as a science, then I’d like to hear why.
Perhaps you too are unfamiliar with the concept of granting something for the sake of argument, or in legal latin arguendo:
Wikipedia: ... used in courtroom settings and academic legal settings to designate provisional and unendorsed assumptions that will be made at the beginning of an argument in order to explore their implications. YourDictionary/Law: Hypothetically; for the purpose or sake of argument. A term used to assume a fact without waiving the right to question it later on.
So when I granted arguendo that Darwinism was not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous, it was just another way of saying "even if we assume the truth of your claim about Darwinism, it has no bearing on whether ID is testable". In any case, in my experience, most commenters here on UD who use the term "Darwinism" are in fact referring to a atheistic/materialistic philosophical viewpoint - a viewpoint that I do in fact agree is neither falsifiable nor mathematically rigorous. And I am not aware of any consensus opinion amongst scholars and experts in the field of science that atheism/materialism is falsifiable or mathematically rigorous - indeed that would be astonishing since a clear majority of scientists are either believers in God or a "higher power", or are "unsure" in that regard. But of course, none of this is relevant to the scientific testability of ID, which is what I have been discussing all along. Sorry, got to go. TBC.CLAVDIVS
August 7, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
However, the bare inference of “intelligent cause” has no such limits or qualifications, and can therefore be said to explain absolutely any state of affairs, without the possibility of being proved false.
Yes it can- merely by demonstrating that nature, operating freely, can produce it. Now I know that you will just ignore that fact because you have been ignoring it for years. So go wallow in your ignorance.Joe
August 7, 2013
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Lar Tanner:
What is ID theory’s claim regarding the origin of coding nucleotides?
That it was designed, intentionally.Joe
August 7, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
If Darwinism is unscientific it should not be taught in science class. If ID is unscientific it should not be taught in science class either.
Darwinism isn't science and it is being taught.
No, what ID needs in order to be taught in science class is to be scientifically testable.
It is- I and others have told you how to test and potentially falsify it.
What “level” ID is on vis-a-vis some other theory is irrelevant.
No, it isn't. All ID has to do is match the current accepted paradigm, otherwise there are double-standards.
Joe, I am not talking about just “any design inference”.
What I said works for ALL design inferences. And your "explanation" has been refuted, so shut up already.Joe
August 7, 2013
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Joe @ 102, What is ID theory's claim regarding the origin of coding nucleotides?LarTanner
August 7, 2013
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Querius @ 109 That sort of behaviour is irritating sometimes, isn't it.CLAVDIVS
August 6, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Evolution is not blind. It is merely “short-sighted”
Mung
August 6, 2013
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Joe @ 99 Sometimes I have interesting and even intense discussions with a dear friend of mine who's both a Christian and an evolutionist. We respect each other's intellects, we listen to each other's points and rebuttals, and we share information. Nevertheless, we rarely agree regarding evolution. This same type of cordial disagreement is available here, but some people begin arguing obvious definitions such as what's meant by the word "junk," change the subject, refuse to answer a question, circle back, become "willfully ignorant," and so on. At that point, I can't help but feel that it's become a complete waste of time and energy to continue, so I say goodbye and leave them to their illusions. :-)Querius
August 6, 2013
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Joe @ 99
CLAVDIVS: Darwinism is irrelevant because this thread is about whether ID should be taught in university science class. Joe: As I said ID is at least as scientific as darwinism. Therefor if darwinism is being taught then ID should be allowed.
No. If Darwinism is unscientific it should not be taught in science class. If ID is unscientific it should not be taught in science class either.
CLAVDIVS: Whether ID is science or should be taught in university science class is a question about the status and methods of ID, not about the status and methods of any other theory. Joe: That is incorrect. Ya see if ID is on the same or a higher level than the current paradigm, then that is all it needs.
No, what ID needs in order to be taught in science class is to be scientifically testable. What "level" ID is on vis-a-vis some other theory is irrelevant. What is relevant to whether ID should be taught in science class is whether it is scientifically testable. If it's not, then it shouldn't be taught in science class. It really is that simple.
CLAVDIVS: And test it via scientific methods you may, but the problem is, as I have said repeatedly, those tests always come back “true: intelligent cause” because the unqualified claim of “intelligent cause” is consistent with any conceivable fact, measurement, observation or state of affairs, and thus cannot ever be refuted. Joe: Dude, I have told you how to refute any design inference. The EF shows you how to do it too.
Joe, I am not talking about just "any design inference". I am talking specifically about the inference of an unqualified and unlimited "intelligent cause", which as per this website's FAQ is supposedly the key scientific explanation offered by ID. And - as I have explained many times - this explanation of an unqualified "intelligent cause" cannot possibly be falsified, because it is so vague and unlimited that it is consistent with any conceivable measurement, pattern or observation - even contradictory ones. Something that cannot in principle be falsified is not the sort of thing that counts as a scientific explanation. There may be many design inferences that are limited and qualified such that they are scientifically testable; for example, the explanation "this computer was designed and built by humans in 1984". However, the bare inference of "intelligent cause" has no such limits or qualifications, and can therefore be said to explain absolutely any state of affairs, without the possibility of being proved false. This is not the sort of explanation we can scientifically test.
IOW you are just a willfully ignorant punk on an agenda.
That you are now resorting to insults instead of addressing my points reflects on you and the quality of your arguments, as I am sure any reasonable onlooker will note.CLAVDIVS
August 6, 2013
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Logically derived from confirmable evidence, evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection.
And thus completely indistinguishable from goddidit, or magicdidit, or mydeadunclesghostdidit. Not science.Mung
August 6, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, since I find your arguments completely unreasonable, even incoherent to the point of absurdity, I refuse to try to 'do better next time' and leave you to anyone else on UD who wants to try to make heads or tails out of your 'ahem' argument (of which Dr. Torley, who is far more patient than I in regards to nonsense, has tried in his usual meticulous fashion).bornagain77
August 6, 2013
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CLAVDIVS I've finally got a bit of spare time, so I'd like to respond to your claims in detail. I'll list the relevant quotes of yours, for ease of reference (emphases mine):
(#50) I think if we found the 2001 monolith on the Moon any reasonable person would ascribe it to an intelligent cause. However that would be a metaphysical speculation and not a scientific explanation because, however reasonable it may be in this particular example, the fact remains that the claim “intelligent cause” is far too vague and unqualified to actually check. What would happen, of course – with great energy and excitement I suspect – is we would follow up that initial metaphysical speculation of intelligent cause with a battery of genuinely scientifically testable explanations about the origin of the monolith – like it was made at a particular time, from particular materials, with particular tools or methods; and we could follow its radio signal to the outer planets and check all sorts of scientific explanations along the way. There’s nothing irrational or even disreputable about speculating about an intelligent cause; but on its own, that is not a sufficiently specific claim to be testable, so it’s not science... (#62) To be testable the claim has to be more limited or qualified. For example, the claim “human beings made the computer in 1984? would be scientifically testable, because the claim is limited to human beings and all the historical and physical limitations that that entails, as well as focussing on a specific timeframe. The claim is not consistent with any possible observation; in fact it is consistent with only a very narrow range of observations. That’s what makes it something we can check out versus reality, which is what science is all about... The primary problem is, we cannot in principle test the claim “X is not explained by any undirected, natural cause”, because we are not omniscient: we can only test things we know enough about to test; we can’t test what we don’t know about. What is worse, we don’t even know the proportion of what we do know to what we don’t know. Therefore, any claim along the lines of “X is not explained by any Y” is simply not scientifically testable, because we can never know if we have tested every Y.... A secondary problem with the claim “X is not explained by any undirected, natural cause” is around the term “undirected”. Is it possible in principle to conduct tests to see if something is undirected? .. In sum, because the claim “X is not explained by any undirected, natural cause” can’t be tested in principle, it’s not a scientific explanation... (#63) ...I have argued that the ID claim of “intelligent cause”, bare and unqualified, is not a scientific explanation, because it is too vague and unlimited to be be tested by scientific methods. In other words, the consensus of scholars and experts in the field of science about ID being unscientific is well-founded. I am quite prepared to grant, just for the purposes of this thread’s discussion, that Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous, because that’s simply irrelevant to the point I am making about the ID claim of “intelligent cause” being too unqualified for scientific testing.
In response: 1. You've conceded for argument's sake that "Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous." Does that mean that you don't regard it as science, either? If you accept that Darwinism cannot truly be described as a scientific theory, then you are going against the consensus of scholars and experts in the field of science" that you appealed to in rejecting ID as a science. But if you think that Darwinism can be legitimately described as a science, then I'd like to hear why. 2. If claim X is not scientifically testable, then by the same token, the claim "not-X" is't scientifically testable either. So if you reject the claim that life (or for that matter, the diversity of life-forms we see on earth today) was produced by some intelligent agent as unscientific, then you must also reject the claim that life (or the diversity of life-forms existing currently) is the product of some undirected process as equally unscientific. In 2005, the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity organized the Nobel Laureates Initiative, which consisted of a petition that was sent by 38 Nobel Laureates (most of them scientists) to the Kansas Board of Education on September 9, 2005, asking the Board to vote against the inclusion of intelligent design in the academic curriculum. The petition contained the following statement:
Logically derived from confirmable evidence, evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection. (Emphasis mine - VJT)
Do you agree that by the Nobel Laureates' own definition of "evolution", evolution is not a scientific theory? 3. Do you regard the first and second laws of thermodynamics as scientific statements? The first law says that energy can never be created or destroyed; the second says that the entropy of any isolated system will never decrease. If you accept these statements as scientific, then it is hard to see why you would reject as unscientific the claim that every independently specifiable pattern observed in Nature whose probability of arising from stochastic and/or law-governed processes is less than 10^-150 is not the result of chance or necessity, but of an intelligent agent. One could certainly think of observations that would falsify the claim. 4. You write that in order to be truly scientific, a claim about intelligent agency must stipulate that an entity "was made at a particular time, from particular materials, with particular tools or methods." Fair enough. So even if you consider ID as a whole to be metaphysical rather than scientific, you would be prepared to grant that sub-hypotheses consistent with ID methodology are scientific - e.g. the hypothesis that life was made 3.9 billion years ago (i.e. as soon as the crust was cool enough to support life over the long-term), from DNA (because it's the best molecule for the job) and by a process of assembling the components of the first cell in order XYZ? Am I reading you aright? Got to go now.vjtorley
August 6, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 98
CLAVDIVS, so basically you want a scientific instrument that can measure consciousness? And if you don’t have that scientific instrument you are prepared to argue for solipsism?
No, bornagain77, you have misunderstood - yet again - with the result that you are imputing a position to me I do not hold, have not argued for and in fact have explicitly argued against. It is starting to look like you are doing this on purpose - please try to do better next time. I am not prepared to argue for solipsism on the basis that science cannot measure consciousness. Just because something cannot be scientifically tested does not make it false or unreasonble. In fact I think solipsism is irrational, regardless of the scientific testability of consciousness. As I said @ 62, "There’s nothing disreputable ... about something that can’t be investigated by science – it’s a reflection of the limitations of science, not of the truth or importance of the thing that can’t be so investigated." As a matter of fact I think Wigner may be on to something (along with Alain Aspect and others) regarding the links between consciousness and the interpretation of quantum physics, and I have thought this for a long time (since about 1989 I believe). I think if ID is to make any progress as a science it needs to be reasearching and publishing in areas like this, which currently is not being done by any ID proponents I am aware of. However, it is interesting that you bring this up, because a scientific consciousness detector - specifically an intentionality or "purpose" detector - is precisely what ID claims to have developed, and this is precisely what I am arguing against in this thread. The reason I argue this is because the explanation put forward by ID for certain phenomena - "intelligent cause", without any limitations - is simply too vague to test.CLAVDIVS
August 6, 2013
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Joe @ 102: Great, so then the theory of intelligent design should have something specific to say about how nucleotides first began to code.LarTanner
August 6, 2013
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Now, would a specific ID claim concern what the origin is of “the coding nucleotides of the genes involved”?
Yes, it would.
That is, according to ID, the naturalistic evolution of coding nucleotides is impossible?
Arbitrary codes, like the gentic codes, cannot come about via blind and undirected chemical and physical processes- well to date there isn't any evidence for such a thing.Joe
August 6, 2013
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Joe @ 100, Thanks again. Now, would a specific ID claim concern what the origin is of "the coding nucleotides of the genes involved"? That is, according to ID, the naturalistic evolution of coding nucleotides is impossible?LarTanner
August 6, 2013
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LarTanner:
Excellent. How did you get that measurement?
Research. You could do it too. Just find the simplest bacterial flagellum, count the number of proteins required and do the math: With that said, to measure biological information, ie biological specification, all you have to do is count the coding nucleotides of the genes involved for that functioning system, then multiply by 2 (four possible nucleotides = 2^2) and then factor in the variation tolerance: from Kirk K. Durston, David K. Y. Chiu, David L. Abel, Jack T. Trevors, “Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins,” Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, Vol. 4:47 (2007):
[N]either RSC [Random Sequence Complexity] nor OSC [Ordered Sequence Complexity], or any combination of the two, is sufficient to describe the functional complexity observed in living organisms, for neither includes the additional dimension of functionality, which is essential for life. FSC [Functional Sequence Complexity] includes the dimension of functionality. Szostak argued that neither Shannon’s original measure of uncertainty nor the measure of algorithmic complexity are sufficient. Shannon's classical information theory does not consider the meaning, or function, of a message. Algorithmic complexity fails to account for the observation that “different molecular structures may be functionally equivalent.” For this reason, Szostak suggested that a new measure of information—functional information—is required.
Here is a formal way of measuring functional information: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak, "Functional information and the emergence of biocomplexity," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, Vol. 104:8574–8581 (May 15, 2007). See also: Jack W. Szostak, “Molecular messages,” Nature, Vol. 423:689 (June 12, 2003). Joe
August 6, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
Darwinism is irrelevant because this thread is about whether ID should be taught in university science class.
As I said ID is at least as scientific as darwinism. Therefor if darwinism is being taught then ID should be allowed.
Whether ID is science or should be taught in university science class is a question about the status and methods of ID, not about the status and methods of any other theory.
That is incorrect. Ya see if ID is on the same or a higher level than the current paradigm, then that is all it needs.
You seem to want to make the point there are other subjects taught as science that are just as unscientific as ID.
No, darwinism isn't scientific. ID is.
And test it via scientific methods you may, but the problem is, as I have said repeatedly, those tests always come back “true: intelligent cause” because the unqualified claim of “intelligent cause” is consistent with any conceivable fact, measurement, observation or state of affairs, and thus cannot ever be refuted.
Dude, I have told you how to refute any design inference. The EF shows you how to do it too. IOW you are just a willfully ignorant punk on an agenda.Joe
August 6, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, so basically you want a scientific instrument that can measure consciousness? And if you don't have that scientific instrument you are prepared to argue for solipsism? Something tells me your definition of science is what is screwing you up in this matter! Moreover Eugene Wigner would disagree wholeheartedly with you that other minds cannot be measured 'scientifically'. Here is Wigner commenting on the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries,,, Eugene Wigner Excerpt: When I returned to Berlin, the excellent crystallographer Weissenberg asked me to study: why is it that in a crystal the atoms like to sit in a symmetry plane or symmetry axis. After a short time of thinking I understood:,,,, To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm Further comments from Wigner: "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://eugene-wigner.co.tv/ "It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality" - Eugene Wigner - (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 - received Nobel Prize in 1963 for 'Quantum Symmetries' http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/wigner/ Eugene Wigner receives his Nobel Prize for Quantum Symmetries - video 1963 http://www.nobelprize.org/mediaplayer/index.php?id=1111 Further Notes: “No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” (Max Planck, as cited in de Purucker, Gottfried. 1940. The Esoteric Tradition. California: Theosophical University Press, ch. 13). “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) Another interesting argument comes from the leading philosopher and Christian, Alvin Plantinga—he asked, what evidence does anyone have for the existence of other people’s minds? He argued cogently that the evidence for God is just as good as the evidence for other minds; and conversely, if there isn’t any evidence for God, then there is also no evidence that other minds exist—see God and Other Minds, Cornell University Press, repr. 1990. http://creation.com/atheism-is-more-rational Solipsist Humor from Plantinga ,,,At a recent Lecture I attended by Philosopher Alvin Plantinga, he warmed up the crowd with a few solipsist jokes.,,, FYI, solipsism is the rather odd idea that there is only one individual in the universe and that you are it. Everyone else is just a figment of your imagination. 1. British philosopher Bertrand Russell was a solipsist for a time (why does that not surprise me?), and he once received a letter from a woman who found his arguments very convincing. Well, I suppose it’s not so hard to convince a figment of your imagination that your arguments are brilliant. Anyway, the woman commented in her letter that his description of solipsism made a lot of sense and that, “I’m surprised there aren't more of us.” 2. Plantinga also told of an accomplished academic who was a well-known solipsist (I forget the guys name). And Plantinga thought it would be fun to meet a real life solipsist, so he went to visit him. He was treated fairly well considering he was only figment. I mean, it’s not a given that a solipsist would feel the need to be polite to his imaginary friends. After a brief conversation, Plantinga left and on the way out one of the man’s assistants said, “We take good care of the professor because when he goes we all go.” http://www.fellowtravelerblog.com/2011/05/13/solipsist-humor-from-plantinga/ What is a Properly Basic Belief? (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7377jU2a8Ybornagain77
August 6, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 94
CLAVDIVS: ... science simply hasn’t developed the methods to investigate concepts like intelligence, consciousness and information in any useful way. bornagain77: Really??? So you are saying that it is completely impossible for you to ‘scientifically’ discern between conscious intelligent activity and unconscious non-intelligent activity?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Can you prove by any scientific test that I am in fact conscious, and that I am not a philosophical zombie?CLAVDIVS
August 6, 2013
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Breckmin @ 90
CLAVDIVS: “but it’s not science because it can’t be either confirmed or refuted by any sort of test.” But you can test how useful and schematic information is always formed. You can test mechanical working systems and see that factories never self-assemble. You can test programming and see that not algorithms or engineering with contingencies ever occur without a programmer (intelligent programmer). Based on our repeated experience and experimentation – ALL current finds demonstrate that sequences of arranged useful information always come from Intelligence. It’s open for falsification so falsify it.
Hi Breckmin. Your claim appears to be that, since many instances of a particular type of information (useful, schematic, algorithmic etc.) have been observed to derive from an intelligent cause, then we are justified in inferring that all instances of such information, including from biology, have an intelligent cause. There are several problems with this. Firstly, you claim the argument "all As are B" can be scientifically tested because it can be falsified by finding an instance of A that is not B. Sorry, no, not if B is so vague and unlimited that it is impossible in principle to find an instance of A that is not B. And that's the case here: it is impossible in principle to find any observation that is inconsistent with an unlimited "intelligent cause". Therefore, the claim "all As are due to an intelligent cause" is impossible in principle to falsify, and thus the claim not scientifically testable. Secondly, the argument "every instance of A we have observed has been B, therefore all As are B" is simply a fallacy. Every swan ever observed was white, up until the discovery of Australian black swans. And thirdly, you claim "ALL current finds demonstrate that sequences of arranged useful information always come from intelligence." Actually, no; we do not know whether the arranged useful information in biological life came from an intelligent cause, which is of course the very question we are supposed to be answering, so this is begging the question.CLAVDIVS
August 6, 2013
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Querius 'I’m always leary of combinatorial math when applied to organic molecules and living structures. A lot of the combinations would never occur.' I don't understand why you would be leery since it illustrates the problem that Darwinism is facing quite well. Perhaps this similar hypothetical situation derived from the empirical evidence will clarify the actual situation that Darwinists are facing; How Proteins Evolved - Cornelius Hunter - December 2010 Excerpt: Comparing ATP binding with the incredible feats of hemoglobin, for example, is like comparing a tricycle with a jet airplane. And even the one in 10^12 shot, though it pales in comparison to the odds of constructing a more useful protein machine, is no small barrier. If that is what is required to even achieve simple ATP binding, then evolution would need to be incessantly running unsuccessful trials. The machinery to construct, use and benefit from a potential protein product would have to be in place, while failure after failure results. Evolution would make Thomas Edison appear lazy, running millions of trials after millions of trials before finding even the tiniest of function. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-proteins-evolved.htmlbornagain77
August 6, 2013
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Clavdivs, you claim:
science simply hasn’t developed the methods to investigate concepts like intelligence, consciousness and information in any useful way.
Really??? So you are saying that it is completely impossible for you to 'scientifically' discern between conscious intelligent activity and unconscious non-intelligent activity? Quick Claude, did a conscious intelligence write this post of functional information to you of was it the results of marbles falling on a keyboard somewhere that wrote this post of functional information to you? (Jeopardy theme song plays in background)bornagain77
August 6, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 87
Claude, the probability that Intelligence can produce functional information is 1. You provide concrete ‘scientific’ evidence for Intelligence every single time you write a single post with more than a few words in it. If you want to get into the details of ‘Intelligent Cause’ we can go into Consciousness and its relation to quantum mechanics, the ‘information theoretic’ foundation of reality, and what it means for humans to uniquely be made in the image of God. All of which are very interesting points and I could list copious notes for you in each of those regards (as unqualified as I am).
bornagain77, whilst we have our differences, would it surprise you to learn I actually agree with you on the mysteriousness and irreducibility of consciousness to any known mechanisms, and its possible links with quantum physics, as well as the ineffable quality of information? However, in spite of our agreement on these points, I continue to disagree with you that the ID claim of "intelligent cause" can be tested scientifically, because it is too vague. One reason for this is that science simply hasn't developed the methods to investigate concepts like intelligence, consciousness and information in any useful way. There's nothing disreputable, in my view, about something that can't be investigated by science - it's a reflection of the limitations of science, not of the truth or importance of the thing that can't be so investigated.CLAVDIVS
August 6, 2013
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