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Ann Gauger on why Darwinism = information loss

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Not gain.

Darwinism, as taught in school, is the claim that natural selection acting on random mutation generates huge levels of information, not noise. Here is what really happens:

Ann Gauger of the Biologic Institute here:

Microbiologist Ralph Seelke and I published a paper in 2010 where we demonstrated that cells always, or nearly always, take the easiest road to success. Given a choice between a simple two-step path leading to repair of two genes needed to make tryptophan, versus a one-step path that eliminated expression of the those genes, only one out of a trillion cells went down the path toward making tryptophan, even though that path would ultimately be much more beneficial. Why did this happen?

The genes to be repaired were overexpressed — too much of their products were made. Because one of the genes was broken in two places, no tryptophan could be made. Thus both genes were expensive to keep around. It was easier for the cell to break the useless genes than to repair them — one step instead of two — and the cells, having no foresight, took that path. Some of those cells deleted the genes, thus losing the information needed to make tryptophan for good.

In fact, that is what we observed. Nearly all the cells inactivated the genes (only one out of a trillion didn’t). Some of the cells even deleted the genes, thus losing the capacity to make tryptophan for good. Darwinian evolution travels by the shortest road, without regard for where it’s headed. And if the shortest road is to break an existing function — to lose information — that’s the path it chooses. More.

That clearly has implications for understanding cancer. The cancer cell is defective as a useful cell, but highly fit when lethal, due to dumped information:

Cancers develop when one or more normal functions in a cell are disrupted or broken. The ironic thing is that for the cancer cells, this breaking increases their fitness, their rate of growth and cell division, and thus is beneficial — to them. Normal constraints have been removed, allowing uncontrolled growth.

In that sense, cancer is a form of devolution. We looked at devolution here: Devolution: Getting back to the simple life:

Most of the time, when we think of evolution, we mean mechanisms for the growth of complex new information. After all, entropy (the tendency for disorder to increase over time) can satisfactorily explain loss of information. Yet, in the history of life, some forms survive while — or even by — losing information (devolution).

Which may not be good news for other parts of the life form or ecosystem.

See Talk to the fossils: Let’s see what they say back for more ways evolution can actually happen.

Here’s the abstract:

New functions requiring multiple mutations are thought to be evolutionarily feasible if they can be achieved by means of adaptive paths-successions of simple adaptations each involving a single mutation. The presence or absence of these adaptive paths to new function therefore constrains what can evolve. But since emerging functions may require costly over-expression to improve fitness, it is also possible for reductive (i.e., cost-cutting) mutations that eliminate over-expression to be adaptive. Consequently, the relative abundance of these kinds of adaptive paths–constructive paths leading to new function versus reductive paths that increase metabolic efficiency–is an important evolutionary constraint. To study the impact of this constraint, we observed the paths actually taken during long-term laboratory evolution of an Escherichia coli strain carrying a doubly mutated trpA gene. The presence of these two mutations prevents tryptophan biosynthesis. One of the mutations is partially inactivating, while the other is fully inactivating, thus permitting a two-step adaptive path to full tryptophan biosynthesis. Despite the theoretical existence of this short adaptive path to high fitness, multiple independent lines grown in tryptophan-limiting liquid culture failed to take it. Instead, cells consistently acquired mutations that reduced expression of the double-mutant trpA gene. Our results show that competition between reductive and constructive paths may significantly decrease the likelihood that a particular constructive path will be taken. This finding has particular significance for models of gene recruitment, since weak new functions are likely to require costly over-expression in order to improve fitness. If reductive, cost-cutting mutations are more abundant than mutations that convert or improve function, recruitment may be unlikely even in cases where a short adaptive path to a new function exists. (Public access) Pdf

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Comments
Bloodymurderalive #23, The same occurred to me as I was reading the OP. As I am also a layman in biology, I think that you are right ) In terms of information gain/loss, evolution can lead to information gain but its magnitude is statistically insignificant. It is noise in comparison to the amount of information there needs to be for evolutionary oscillations to even start. Imagine you get a verbal message from you friend who asked you to pass this message on to an addressee by email. When you heard the message say over the phone, you misheard a bit (e.g. that the meeting is to start at 10am) and interpreted it wrong (say that the meeting is to start at 11am). However, when you typed it, you accidentally corrected it and typed '10am'. Obviously, when you incorrectly received it, there was an accidental information loss on your part. However when you relayed it, this loss was accidentally compensated for. It is important to realize that the whole exercise started off with an initial meaningful message (which is long enough). A similar sort of thing is the case with evolution (there you have selection which makes it special though). We need to bear in mind that evolution does not select for a future function. Instead, it selects from among existing functions. Functions must somehow appear first. The evolutionist treatment of this is unacceptable. Functions can only have intelligent origin (via decision making and planning). All this evolutionist gubbins about co-optation and gene duplication is bluff because it assumes the existence of sophisticated machinery that makes decisions about when and how to switch from one function to another. Co-optation is the major argument from people like Ken Miller. I am nobody compared to him in biology really but people of his caliber are expected to take such things into consideration (either he does not know these things, which I find hard to believe, or he must be taking them for granted, which he should not be). ID is not anti-evolution in principle though. The question of the actual limits of evolution is non-trivial and different from the main ID claims. The main ID claim is that intelligence is irreducible to naturalistic causation (chance and law-like necessity). In particular, in relation to biology this translates to the claim that the best explanation of the existence of organisms being decision making systems is intelligence via decision making.EugeneS
September 11, 2015
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Thanks Upright BiPed. My main comment is at 23, followed by a very quick, separate point at 27. Any feedback, however brief, would be much appreciated.bloodymurderlive
September 11, 2015
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Bloody, I won't attempt an answer to your question because I haven't been following along. But I will welcome you to UD. Hope you stay a while...Upright BiPed
September 11, 2015
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So... Nobody responded to my first comment directed at LearnedHand... Since I am a layman, this can only mean one of two things: 1) I'm so wrong that nobody wants to even bother correcting me, or 2) I'm right, but nobody really thinks it's an important point. All I want to know is: Am I right or am I wrong? Did I correctly interpret the point that Ann is trying to make? Help a layman out...bloodymurderlive
September 11, 2015
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Mung, I have looked and haven't found any papers that show "evidence of natural selection and/drift producing multi-protein machinery".Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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Virgil, there is a massive amount of evidence of natural selection and/drift producing multi-protein machinery published in millions of papers. You can either go read them all and find out for yourself, or you can just believe it is true, like Alicia.Mung
September 6, 2015
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Alicia has failed, miserably, to answer this question: Which paper(s) support natural selection and/drift producing multi-protein machinery? Please be specific ID is not anti-evolution so saying the papers are about evolution is cowardly equivocating. I asked for evidence for natural selection and/ or drift producing it. Unfortunately no one can model such a thing.Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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Alicia- buy a vowel:
The Thornton paper is about the estrogen receptor, which not only dimerizes (that’s two proteins) but also binds co-activators, forming a multi-protein complex.
The estrogen receptor is NOT multi-protein machinery. What is wrong with you? And yours can't explain the co-activators.
I will not be responding to you again
All you do is misrepresent what I post. It's as if you have the pathological arse gene.Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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Wrong again, Virg. The Thornton paper is about the estrogen receptor, which not only dimerizes (that's two proteins) but also binds co-activators, forming a multi-protein complex. I will not be responding to you again, it's just too unfair.Alicia Cartelli
September 6, 2015
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Alicia, Your position cannot account for any proteins. And the Thornton paper was about one enzyme. One is not multi. I bet they didn't mention that in your kindergarten class.Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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Virtually all cellular machinery is multi-protein, Virg. They probably don't mention that in your biology pop-up book though. Toodaloo!Alicia Cartelli
September 6, 2015
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Alicia Cartelli is an equivocating imbecile. MULTI-PROTEIN machinery you ignorant arse. Grow up.Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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They all provide evidence for the evolution of molecular machinery, Virg.Alicia Cartelli
September 6, 2015
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Alicia:
Perhaps these were some of the papers that Starbuck was referring to?
Which paper(s) support natural selection and/drift producing multi-protein machinery? Please be specificVirgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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Perhaps these were some of the papers that Starbuck was referring to? Resurrecting the Ancestral Steroid Receptor: Ancient Origin of Estrogen Signaling. Thornton et al. Evolution of Minimal Specificity and Promiscuity in Steroid Hormone Receptors. Eick et al. Biophysical mechanisms for large-effect mutations in the evolution of steroid hormone receptors. Harms et al. Evolution of increased complexity in a molecular machine. Finnigan et al. Molecular analysis of the evolutionary significance of ultraviolet vision in vertebrates. Shi & Yokoyama Reconstruction of Ancestral Metabolic Enzymes Reveals Molecular Mechanisms Underlying Evolutionary Innovation through Gene Duplication. Voordeckers et al. Hyperstability and Substrate Promiscuity in Laboratory Resurrections of Precambrian ?-Lactamases. Risso et al. An epistatic ratchet constrains the direction of glucocorticoid receptor evolution. Bridgham et al.Alicia Cartelli
September 6, 2015
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Dr JDD, Starbuck has invoked the "literature bluff" Unless he can produce a specific paper or two that supports whatever point he is attempting to make, there is no need to pay any attention to him. It is not our responsibility to hunt down his rabbits for him. However, out of curiosity, I went to Google and did a search. I found one hit that seemed to hold promise that I would find his point. It was a reference to a study in progress titled "Experimental Evolution and Genomic Analysis of an E. Coli Containing a Resurrected Ancestral Gene". The gene in the research produces the Elongation Factor (EF) protein. Some of what I read brought a smile to my face. In one place they ask the question "Will the ancient protein evolve exactly into its modern descendant, or in what other ways the bacteria and the ancient gene will co-adapt?" Later they state, "Null alleles (in genes infB and nusA) are detected in one evolved lineage for the EF protein-protein interaction network. These mutations result in a loss of function in Initiation Factor (IF2) protein (an essential protein involved in the ribosomal machinery) and a nusA protein (a transcription regulatory protein), and are known to interact with EF..." (emphasis mine) If Starbuck's point was that it is easier to break something that create a new, better mousetrap, he succeeded. There you are Starbuck. Did you make your point with me or not? StephenSteRusJon
September 6, 2015
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Defending Ann- Random mutations are noise and noise always causes a loss of information.Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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No response from evos regarding the evolution of multi-protein machines via natural selection and/ or drift- or any other materialistic process.Virgil Cain
September 6, 2015
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Care to provide this creationist with some references supporting your claim Starbuck?Dr JDD
September 6, 2015
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No response fron creationists regarding the myriad of ancestral ressurrection experriments which elucidate how multi protein machines evolve, patheticStarbuck
September 4, 2015
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REC- AGAIN, what do you have? Lenski doesn't help you.Virgil Cain
September 4, 2015
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Carpathian, We already know that you are a scientifically illiterate coward. We don't need you to keep proving it. We have been over the experiments IDists conduct to support our claims. Your willful ignorance is not an argument.Virgil Cain
September 4, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
What experiments are evolutionists conducting to support their claims?
What experiments are IDists conducting to support their claims?Carpathian
September 4, 2015
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I don't enough to defend the paper, but Behe's analysis of long-term bacteria experiments seemed to independently corroborate the phenomenon of adaptive information loss.bloodymurderlive
September 4, 2015
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And again, no one even tries to defend the paper. Whatever big big numbers IDers tell you come from this paper are the result of a experimental system that imposes a fitness cost on the bacteria. Deactivation of the system through mutation allows the bacteria grow faster. These mutations sweep the population rapidly. So you're looking for two mutations not in a fair system, but one rigged to fail.REC
September 4, 2015
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Starbuck- No one knows how multi-protein machinery arose. No one knows how to test the claim that natural selection and/ or drift can produce such a thing. So please, spare us your spewage.Virgil Cain
September 4, 2015
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I wonder if creationists ever google or do they justmake stuff up as they go along, i see dozens of hits some, of which are pretty impressive ancestral ressurrection experiments, which elucidate how multi protein machines evolveStarbuck
September 4, 2015
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Learned Hand I had the same question in mind as I read the article, and you are exactly right to ask it. I'm disappointed that you've been largely dismissed, but I will try my best as a layman... The idea of Darwinism is that, while beneficial permutations are outnumbered by deleterious ones, it only has to happen once (within the breeding population) for the change to become fixed. Now, that is the idea; I'm not sure how true that is from a population genetics point of view, but nevertheless... I can understand the confusion about the article because it doesn't explain what happens when that 1-in-a-trillion event does occur, it just says it's rare then leaps to the conclusion that Darwinism = information loss overall. So what I think the article meant, and that it did not explain well, is to ask this question: What happens to those rare adaptive gains through generations? Well, since they are so vastly outnumbered by adaptive loses, they are near-certain to be eliminated anyway by the proclivity of cells to favor the simplest adaptation (information loss). It's crucial to keep in mind that nature does not select for creativity, it selects for fitness. And it turns out that "fitness" usually means information loss. So even if you have information gain, it simply cannot compete with nature's bias for information loss. I hope I explained that in a way that makes sense. I think you might appreciate the paper by Behe (linked in "leaky faucet"), published in the same year, but articulated differently: http://goo.gl/hw14Jqbloodymurderlive
September 4, 2015
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REC- What experiment could be conducted to show that natural selection and/ or drift can produce a new functioning multi-protein machine? What experiments are evolutionists conducting to support their claims?Virgil Cain
September 4, 2015
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One in a trillion! Would that ever happen even once? The odds are the odds. Whether it would happen even once depends on how many times the dice are rolled. What specific odds are you talking about, and what are the numbers?Learned Hand
September 3, 2015
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