Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

At Evolution News: Mammoth Support for Devolution

Categories
Darwinism
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Michael Behe writes:

The more science progresses, the more hapless Darwin seems.

In my 2019 book Darwin Devolves I showed that random mutation and natural selection are powerful de-volutionary forces. That is, they quickly lead to the loss of genetic information. The reason is that, in many environmental circumstances, a species’ lot can be improved most quickly by breaking or blunting pre-existing genes. To get the point across, I used an analogy to a quick way to improve a car’s gas mileage — remove the hood, throw out the doors, get rid of any excess weight. That will help the car go further, but it also reduces the number of features of the car. And it sure doesn’t explain how any of those now-jettisoned parts got there in the first place.

Image credit: Thomas Quine, CC BY 2.0 , via Wikimedia Commons.

The Bottom Line

The same goes for biology. Helpful mutations that arrive most quickly are very much more likely to degrade genetic features than to construct new ones. The featured illustration in Darwin Devolves was the polar bear, which has accumulated a number of beneficial mutations since it branched off from the brown bear a few hundred thousand years ago. Yet the large majority of those beneficial mutations were degradative — they broke or damaged pre-existing genes. For example, a gene involved in fur pigmentation was damaged, rendering the beast white — that helped; another gene involved in fat metabolism was degraded, allowing the animal to consume lots of seal blubber, its main food in the Arctic — that helped, too. Those mutations were good for the species in the moment — they did improve its chances of survival. But degradative mutations don’t explain how the functioning genes got there in the first place. Even worse, the relentless burning of genetic information to adapt to a changing environment will make a species evolutionarily brittle and more prone to extinction. The bottom line: Although random mutation and natural selection help a species adapt, Darwinian processes can’t account for the origins of sophisticated biological systems.

In Darwin Devolves, I also mentioned work on DNA extracted from frozen woolly mammoth carcasses that showcased devolution: “26 genes were shown to be seriously degraded, many of which (as with polar bear) were involved in fat metabolism, critical in the extremely cold environments that the mammoth roamed.” It turns out that was an underestimate. A new paper1 that has sequenced DNA from several more woolly mammoth remains says the true number is more than triple that — 87 genes broken compared to their elephant relatives. 

There’s Lots More

The point is that these gene losses aren’t side shows — they are the events that transformed an elephant into a mammoth, that adapted the animal to its changing environment. A job well done, yes, but now those genes are gone forever, unavailable to help with the next change of environment. Perhaps that contributed to eventual mammoth extinction.

As quoted above, the mammoth authors note that gene losses can be adaptive, and they cited a paper that I hadn’t seen before. I checked it out and it’s a wonderful laboratory evolution study of yeast.2 Helsen et al. (2020) used a collection of yeast strains in which one of each different gene in the genome had been knocked out. They grew the knockout yeast in a stressful environment and watched to see how the microbes evolved to handle it. Many of the yeast strains, with different genes initially knocked out, recovered, and some even surpassed the fitness of wild-type yeast under the circumstances. The authors emphasized the fact of the evolutionary recovery. However, they also clearly stated (but don’t seem to have noticed the importance of the fact) that all of the strains rebounded by breaking other genes, ones that had been intact at the beginning of the experiment. None built anything new, all of them devolved.

Well, Duh

That’s hardly a surprise. At least in retrospect, it’s easy to see that devolution must happen — for the simple reason that helpful degradative mutations are more plentiful than helpful constructive ones and thus arrive more quickly for natural selection to multiply. The more recent results recounted here just pile more evidence onto that gathered in Darwin Devolves showing Darwin’s mechanism is powerfully devolutionary. That simple realization neatly explains results ranging from the evolutionary behavior of yeast in a comfy modern laboratory, to the speciation of megafauna in raw nature millions of years ago, and almost certainly to everything in between.

References

  1. Van der Valk, Tom, et al. 2022. Evolutionary consequences of genomic deletions and insertions in the woolly mammoth genome. iScience 25, 104826.
  2. Helsen, J. et al. 2020. Gene loss predictably drives evolutionary adaptation. Molecular Biology and Evolution 37, 2989–3002.

Behe’s conclusions have significant implications: evolutionary adaptation seems to progress by breaking existing genes in such a way as to confer a survival advantage in a niche environment; the result is a more “brittle” species with fewer options for surviving further environmental stresses; the mystery of the origin of the original genes is in no way explained by natural means at any step in the process. Rather than Darwinian evolution providing a mechanism for the “origin of the species,” it more adequately explains the demise of species.

Comments
JVL at 315, "I don’t think you need to concede anything." OK, now I'm confused. Note to self: Archive this line for possible future use. "when design was implemented." I'd like you to give me the exact dates and times, starting at the beginning, of all the alleged stages that went from nothing to human beings during so-called "evolution." Go. "Why do you keep thinking there’s some ulterior motive?" Because it's obvious? "disagree"? Here's my definition of disagreeing: "I think you're wrong about some political candidate." The "disagreeing" you are talking about involves far more weighty things like the development of life on earth. You think blind, unguided and directionless processes with no brain, pulled the 'good stuff' from the trash heap of failed 'evolutionary experiments'? If I left all the parts for a bicycle in a pool of water and left it for a million years, it would self-assemble? Earthquakes and tidal forces would put it all together correctly? Do you understand how even more ridiculous that sounds when talking about tiny, incremental changes that allegedly happened to living things? I have seen a photo of an insect trapped in amber. A close-up photo. It has wings and legs and compound eyes. It is perfect. It had a brain that could interpret all the data coming in correctly - meaning in a useful way. It had a purpose going way beyond reproduction. "Evolution" would have people believe it came from nowhere and went nowhere. No. The dumb, ignorant theory of evolution does not explain its functionality or realized life. And don't start with any crap you can't prove. Evolution, in the form of so-called "evolutionary psychology," states that we don't have brains to think with or to use to find the truth, we have them to use for successful reproduction and that's it. Does that make sense? Further, our brains are just chemicals and firing neurons so we cannot rely on them for an accurate picture of reality. Does that make sense? As far as ID, it describes codes that are used for the development and function of all living things. Evolution? 'Well, maybe this molecular switch does this or that. Maybe.' But whatever is found, evolution gets all the credit because it evolved on May 12, 66,004 B.C.? Really?relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
JVL said:
Oh, sorry I did not add the rather obvious: because of the vast amount of observed, historic and experimental data which includes but is not limited to: the fossil record, the genomic record, the morphological record, and the bio-geographic distribution record.
Let me add some more that might or might be "obvious" to you, but which you didn't include. Such as, the fact that you are not - I assume, correct me if I am wrong - educated and trained in any of the related scientific fields of research, and so you personally did not conduct any of that research, and probably aren't aren't even aware of the vast bulk of it - I doubt anyone is, considering we're probably talking about tens of thousands of papers in various fields of research, or more. So what does it really mean when you refer to that evidence and claim it supports your perspective? The only thing it can mean is that you assume it does, perhaps because you've read or heard some sources you personally have some confidence in say it does. You have no means by which to evaluate it on your own, so you're just parroting what people you have confidence in have said, as a sort of general foundation for what you think is rational commentary on your part concerning evidence you have no actual expertise in evaluating. IOW, you are in no position to claim that the evidence supports your view; that's entirely a false representation on your part. The only actual claim you can make is that people you have confidence in have said that the evidence supports that view. However, people that IDists have confidence in have said that the evidence points to ID. Your claim of supportive evidence, like your claim of "widely supported and accepted" has no more intrinsic value than similar claims by similar IDists. Now, what you DO have access to provide in this conversation would be a logic-based argument. You have attempted to do so by your attempt to use the success of deliberate, intelligence-guided selective breeding as the basis for your belief that "nature" could have similar success since both processes - natural and intelligently guided selection - use the same resources.
If a variation arose that meant an individual was better able to exploit the environment and resources available to it (i.e lived longer and left more offspring) then what other process are you referring to?
The process I am referring to is the intelligent aspect of the guided selection throughout the breeding that delivers success. Natural evolution has no intelligence to use in its breeding process, and it is the fundamental aspect of selective-breeding success. There is no reason you have given so far as to why the natural selection process wouldn't require the intelligence that is required for selective-breeding success. "Living longer and having more offspring" is not a necessary aspect or outcome in the selective breeding process. Yet, you offer that as if it has something to do with selective-breeding success. IOW, nature has a fundamentally different process than selective breeding, but you argue as if it should not be surprising that an undirected process produces the same results from the same starting materials. IOW, it should not be surprising to us if a tornado passing through a Home Depot produces a finished home with doors, windows, working plumbing, etc., the same as a team of intelligent people directing those materials towards an end goal. So, you have no greater claim on any evidential support; no greater claim to popularity, and your logic here fails miserably. Your belief is not evidence-based, because you don't have the expertise necessary to evaluate that evidence, nor did you participate in its generation. What you have left is logic, and so far you have presented no compelling logical argument for why you believe in unguided evolution. Your logic is so bad, you appeal to cases of intelligent design (selective breeding success) as if it supports your belief in unguided evolution.William J Murray
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:34 AM
9
09
34
AM
PDT
Jerry at 314, Various people are here for one reason: to monitor the spread of ID among the common people. To sound the alarm the moment they think this might get into the schools. That is their job. Their assignment. Understand that.relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:15 AM
9
09
15
AM
PDT
Relatd: Interesting and helpful? What would be really interesting is confirming my ideas about why you bother posting on UD. To learn? What, exactly? To debate? No evidence of this except for tossing out the same old same old Darwinian one-liners, which does not involve debate at all. I thought debate involved presenting our views and then comparing and contrasting them. Do you think I need to concede something? I don't think you need to concede anything. I am here to mock and/or deny ID. I'd like to know what ID proponents actually think about things like when design was implemented. I am here to promote blind, unguided chance which is directionless. I'd be happy not to talk about it at all. I keep getting asked to defend it which I will do. I am here because I’ve got a lot of time on my hands and it amuses me. I do find some conversations educational. I am here to hone my avoid and deny skills, i.e. “I don’t understood,” “Can’t you understand that disagreeing…”? Not at all. My definition of disagreeing is a boxing move designed to catch my opponent off guard. It's just me being honest about what I think is true. Why do you keep thinking there's some ulterior motive? Beware: Your reply might involve a sock being thrown in your direction. Translation?: if i don't respond in a way you find acceptable you'll stop talking to me. So, again, I have a question: can you accept that sometimes people will disagree with you without having any kind of agenda or goal? That they are just being honest and trying to reply to questions posed to them?JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:14 AM
9
09
14
AM
PDT
From another site on global warming/climate control discussion
Rule #1 when dealing with fanatics and freaks: Do NOT play the game with their rules. Do NOT use the idiotic phrase "Climate Change". Ever. If there is no crisis, stop referring to it. Concede nothing to the freak. These well-meaning people are trying to engage fanatics and zealots in a reasonable discussion and it never works. They have no interest in discussing anything except the terms of your surrender
That describes those who propose naturalized Evolution. Alan Fox is the perfect example. He appeared here a short time ago saying he wanted a reasonable discussion. That disappeared in a short time. Does anyone really believe that any anti-ID commenter has been reasonable? There was one here 14 years ago. But that was it.jerry
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT
JVL at 311, Interesting and helpful? What would be really interesting is confirming my ideas about why you bother posting on UD. To learn? What, exactly? To debate? No evidence of this except for tossing out the same old same old Darwinian one-liners, which does not involve debate at all. You can confirm or deny the following: I am here to mock and/or deny ID. I am here to promote blind, unguided chance which is directionless. I am here because I've got a lot of time on my hands and it amuses me. I am here to hone my avoid and deny skills, i.e. "I don't understood," "Can't you understand that disagreeing..."? My definition of disagreeing is a boxing move designed to catch my opponent off guard. Beware: Your reply might involve a sock being thrown in your direction.relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
Asauber: Sounds like you have a laundry list of limitations ready to go. I still don't really understand what you are trying to a)say and b) get me to say. I'm just going to leave it at that unless you choose to spell things out a bit more clearly. Just one more thought: let's look at rolling a 20-sided die (yes, they exist, yes, you can buy them). If I say: well, there are a few prime number results you could get you seem terribly interested in the other numbers I could get. And I can elucidate those when there is a discrete, well defined and limited sample space. Based on the collective experience of breeders (and, I'd say, the evidence supporting unguided evolution) there are a lot of inheritable variations that have been seen and got passed on to the next generation because we have observed and noticed the offspring that have those variations. You say: yeah well what about the ones that we didn't see? What variations are in play? Or are you saying something else? I still don't get what you are thinking.JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
09:01 AM
9
09
01
AM
PDT
Relatd: Disagreeing with you? Everyone who understands ID disagrees with you. Admit it. Knave! You really twisted that around didn't you? Look, I don't assume you are a knave or a fool just because you disagree with me. I assume (rightly or wrongly) that you see things differently than I do and probably put greater emphasis on some bits of evidence or personal experiences. I am interested in why we disagree and would like for you to honestly tell me what influences your opinion and how you came to it initially. In the same way I expect you to be critical of my views and opinions I reserve the right to be critical of your views and opinions. Sometimes, I admit, I get a bit feisty because I perceive that I am being vilified and laughed down because I disagree instead of being treated, at the very least, as someone who is willing to try and answer questions. I do not expect to change your opinion. I do not hope to change your opinion. I am interested in what your opinion is (especially regarding the stuff ID proponents tend not to talk about) and how you came to it. And I'm interested in how you see new bits of evidence and research. Nothing would please me more than to have conversations like: Me: did you see this news item about this bit of research? You: yes, I can't see that it's a real challenge to ID for the following reasons. Me: well, what about this and that? You: ah, well, here's how I see those issues. etc. I think that would be interesting and helpful.JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT
"certain situations" "some sites are better ‘preserved’ that others" "mutations in some regions tending to be more fatal" "basic base rate" Troll, Sounds like you have a laundry list of limitations ready to go. Andrewasauber
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
08:49 AM
8
08
49
AM
PDT
Asauber: Obviously, variations don’t occur where and when it’s convenient for me to observe them. So there’s time and location limitations. Don’t you think so? Um . . . let's work with what we do know. There are statistics which show that some genomic 'sites' have higher rates of mutations than others under certain situations. And some sites are better 'preserved' that others but I think that is a result of mutations in some regions tending to be more fatal so that we have little or no examples of some mutations amongst surviving offspring. We also have statistics regarding the basic base rate of mutations so we can predict roughly how many there are (on average) amongst offspring. Your time and observation limitations aren't really the point are they? Mutations happen independent of you or when you choose to check. So, are we talking about your limitations or mutations limitations?JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
JVL at 303, Disagreeing with you? Everyone who understands ID disagrees with you. Admit it. Knave!relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
Darwin was unaware of Mendel’s work. Darwin proposed a hypothesis, wrong, that inheritance involved “gemmules”
All you are presenting is well known by ID. Mendel, like Darwin, was also clueless as to what actually caused heritability. He postulated something but did know what it was. All became clear over time as many others contributed to a science, genetics, ID accepts 100%. Aside: Mendel’s paper was on Darwin’s desk unread at his death. It’s doubtful it would have made any difference if he had read it. What would he had learned about Evolution, nothing really. What’s the point of all this? It’s all making ID look good as the best interpretation of science in the world. Aside2: the irony of all this is that genetics, DNA, Mendel’s work and especially Darwin’s work have nothing to do with Evolution. Evolution has to originate in what causes body plans and it certainly isn’t in the genome.jerry
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
08:24 AM
8
08
24
AM
PDT
"What limitations are you talking about and what reasons do you have for thinking they exist?" Troll, Obviously, variations don't occur where and when it's convenient for me to observe them. So there's time and location limitations. Don't you think so? Andrewasauber
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
08:16 AM
8
08
16
AM
PDT
Aside: why do you make such uninformed and irrelevant comments?
My statement is correct. Darwin was unaware of Mendel's work. Darwin proposed a hypothesis, wrong, that inheritance involved "gemmules" and worried that if blended inheritance turned out to be correct, his selection theory was at risk.Alan Fox
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:53 AM
7
07
53
AM
PDT
Despite being presented with clear examples, you refuse to acknowledge them as valid. Those in the ID community who understand what ID is do not have this problem.
Broadly true because the ID community is inward looking and IDers tend to be uncritical of the remaining few ID proponents and ignorant of the valid criticisms existing in the wider world.Alan Fox
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
Relatd: You certainly are whining about ID. Despite being presented with clear examples, you refuse to acknowledge them as valid. Those in the ID community who understand what ID is do not have this problem. So yes, your comments fall under the whining category. Oh, right. It's not possible to disagree with you so I must not really understand your examples. Your ideas are so clear and obvious that only a fool or a knave would deny them. How very scientific. I think all your examples have explanations or potential explanations that invoke few (if any) assumed agents or processes and do not depend on first claiming to have eliminated other explanations. If you're not willing to discuss the evidence, if you can only see your own point of view then why are you bothering to pretend to have a conversation? What's the point if you're never, ever even going to contemplate that you might be wrong OR that it's possible someone might disagree with you?JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:45 AM
7
07
45
AM
PDT
Jerry should check on the name Gregor Mendel
I’ve written on Mendel several times. Mendel definitely contributed to genetics but only to part of it. Darwin’s ideas of 1) variation (somewhat new) 2) heritability (known since beginning of time - Mendel contributed to this) and 3) selection (Mendel had little to do with this) are essential to genetics. Not all by far but both Mendel and Darwin’s ideas are part of modern genetics. These are standard science established processes which ID has endorsed 100%. Aside: why do you make such uninformed and irrelevant comments? Aside2: is the whole purpose here to generate irrelevant comments such as those by JVL and Alan Fox so that the comment count gets higher? When all the kings horses and all the kings men can’t get anywhere establishing a mechanism for the Evolution debate, maybe it should be shut down as useless. Is this maybe the thousand’s OP since the start of UD where anyone who is anti ID has failed to make a coherent argument. jerry
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
There’s stuff available to work with and stuff not available work with.
There is existing variation in a gene pool which can emerge in new combinations due to meiosis, crossing over, recombination and there is the possibility of new genes arising via mutation, duplication, hgt and so on. Selective breeding (artificial selection) mainly relies on new combinations of existing genes.Alan Fox
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:39 AM
7
07
39
AM
PDT
Asauber: I think you are afraid of what the limitations prevent. So you dance around instead of addressing the issue. Why don't you stop dancing about and just come out with what you think I'm avoiding. Obviously some mutations are deleterious. No one is denying that. What limitations are you talking about and what reasons do you have for thinking they exist? That should be a good start.JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:38 AM
7
07
38
AM
PDT
JVL at 294, You certainly are whining about ID. Despite being presented with clear examples, you refuse to acknowledge them as valid. Those in the ID community who understand what ID is do not have this problem. So yes, your comments fall under the whining category.relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:34 AM
7
07
34
AM
PDT
Shall we kill them all and let God sort them out? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Pragmatic papal authority certainly did for the citizens of Béziers in 1209. Jerry should check on the name Gregor Mendel, perhaps. Someone Charles Darwin didn't know.Alan Fox
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
"I said there was some, a lot that was available. That’s the stuff that matters, what you have to work with." Troll, Right. There's stuff available to work with and stuff not available work with. Which goes back to my comment about severe limitations- "Many mutations kill the offspring that inherits them.". This is exactly what you are describing. I think you are afraid of what the limitations prevent. So you dance around instead of addressing the issue. Andrewasauber
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
JVL at 277, Some people are so "modern." "I wasn’t thinking of new agey, candle-burning, Tarot card reading, people with too many necklaces who spend too much time watching Game of Thrones but if that’s what you believe . . . . "relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
Andrew at 270, Slavery has been relabeled as "human trafficking." Same thing, no change. Cheap and free labor are still the driving force behind slavery today.relatd
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
ET: Whining about ID does not amount to contesting design. No one is 'whining' about ID. Most biologists don't think about it at all. The evidence for unguided evolution is strong, widely accepted, being added to and, importantly, multi-thread. That is, it's not just genomes or fossils. ID has only the one single starting argument (a negative one): we can't see how unguided processes accomplished this or that, you claim that's 'eliminating' natural causes. All ID arguments start there. Firstly, how do you know you are aware of all natural processes and causes? Secondly, how can you complete eliminate anything? (I sense a probabilistic argument just about to appear.) Your supposed 'positive' argument (we only observe complex, coded information coming from intelligence) is hamstrung because the only beings we know of that match that criterion are humans!! Who clearly were not around whenever the designer was supposed to have done something. No one is really clear about those. So, a negative argument followed by an unsubstantiated extension of experience. Claims that have been tested and confirmed. Give an example of a clear and unambiguous ID claim that was tested and confirmed. Something that's not just: we will see more design because we think this stuff was all designed. That's just building on your assumption, that's not a test. (How much time today did you spend studying the design so you could start saying something about the designer? Any time at all? Did anyone spend any time doing that? You know, like archaeologists do. They are actually interested in learning things about their designers. Are ID proponents actually interested in finding out about their designers?)JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:21 AM
7
07
21
AM
PDT
Jerry: This is genetics. Obviously. This is an argument that a lot supposed change is within the same genome. That is genetics and 100% accepted by ID. It is also not Evolution. No, you missed the point. We now know that some major morphological changes can come about because of very few changes to a control gene or two. So, not A LOT of supposed change. Keep up with the research. Again, Shubin's recent book is very accessible and delves into this very subject. It’s interesting that an ID argument was invoked. No, you chose to interpret what I said in a way that you think was an ID argument. The real question “Is JVL an ID advocate in disguise?” Can't you tell the difference? Shall we kill them all and let God sort them out?JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:12 AM
7
07
12
AM
PDT
Asauber: As you indicated some variations aren’t available. That I did not say. I said there was some, a lot that was available. That's the stuff that matters, what you have to work with. You should be able to explain why some are available and some aren’t and give examples and reasons. You know, at least try to begin to think about it scientifically. I only know what is there. I don't there is anything else. Mutations happen randomly with respect to fitness. Many mutations kill the offspring that inherits them. Are they available? Sort of. Do they matter when looking at what inheritable variation might lead to morphological changes? You tell me. You seem to think there is something I either am not admitting or am ignorant of. Again that's like asking me what kinds of trees aren't available. (Okay, potato chips flavours are consciously decided upon by human beings so not the best analogy.). I don't know what kind of trees are not available. No one does. Except for some that are now extinct.JVL
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:07 AM
7
07
07
AM
PDT
Whining about ID does not amount to contesting design. The anti-ID mob doesn't have a scientific explanation for our existence. At least ID makes testable claims. Claims that have been tested and confirmed.ET
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
07:02 AM
7
07
02
AM
PDT
what you need is changes to the control genes
This is genetics. This is an argument that a lot supposed change is within the same genome. That is genetics and 100% accepted by ID. It is also not Evolution. It’s interesting that an ID argument was invoked. Genetics which ID says is great science explains nearly 100% of the arguments from evolutionary biology. Aside: We are using an obvious troll to bolster the ID argument. So what else is new. The real question “Is JVL an ID advocate in disguise?”jerry
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
06:51 AM
6
06
51
AM
PDT
"What kinds aren’t available?" Troll, This is supposed to be a scientific discussion. It's on you to explain what you mean when you write stuff. There are reasons there are certain chip flavors that aren't available. The manufacturers of potato chips don't make certain flavors, being one. As you indicated some variations aren't available. You should be able to explain why some are available and some aren't and give examples and reasons. You know, at least try to begin to think about it scientifically. Andrewasauber
August 24, 2022
August
08
Aug
24
24
2022
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
1 … 6 7 8 9 10 … 18