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At Evolution News: Recognizing Providence in the History of Life Is a Hint About Our Own Lives

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An arena of fine-tuning we can all appreciate, not quantitatively but qualitatively, is how in most events of our lives, things go right, when there are so many more ways that they could go wrong. Just consider how most of the time we arrive safely to where we’re going when we take a trip by car, even in rush-hour traffic. Or, how electricity keeps flowing to our homes, without which we’d be pushed quickly into survival mode. Or how our sense of balance facilitates efficient movement of our physical bodies throughout the day.

David Klinghoffer gives his perspective on this topic, reaching a different conclusion than Dartmouth College physicist Marcelo Gleiser.

Dartmouth College physicist Marcelo Gleiser, writing at Big Think, asks, “Does life on Earth have a purpose?” Obviously, this is more than just a scientific question. It’s a very personal one for each of us. Given the venue, Gleiser’s answer of course is going to be no.

Gleiser’s own case rests on the part played by chance in life’s history. For example, the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs:

If we changed one or more of the dramatic events in Earth’s history — say, the cataclysmic impact of the asteroid that helped eliminate the dinosaurs 66 million years ago — life’s history on Earth would also change. We probably would not be here asking about life’s purpose. The lesson from life is simple: In Nature, creation and destruction dance together. But there is no choreographer.

His argument: The Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction cleared the field for mammals, allowing ultimately for the rise of “intelligent, technology-savvy humans.” No asteroid –> no humans. The asteroid was a chance, unchoreographed event. Therefore, says Dr. Gleiser, no “choreographer” intended our existence.

The Role of Providence

This is a remarkably shallow conclusion. As luck would have it (if you want to put it that way), I’ve been thinking about the role of providence, as I see it, in my own path of life. Any of us can point to certain pivotal events in our past — a seemingly chance meeting, a piece of advice received, an idea that came to us unbidden — that need not have occurred, but did. And because they did, we found the path to our current place (marriage, relationships, friendships, work, the whole thing) laid out before us.

Gleiser’s argument about the history of life is just a separate application of the depressing view that denies anything in our life paths could have been intended for us. That the view is depressing doesn’t mean that it is mistaken. That it can be asserted doesn’t mean that it is correct.

Purposeful Information

To decide about providence in the rise of complex life, you would have to look at a much wider suite of evidences than the fact that an asteroid doomed the dinosaurs. Scientific proponents of intelligent design have done this, noting vast evidence of extraordinarily careful tuning in physics, chemistry, and biology, from the Big Bang itself, to the origin of life, to the series of biological “big bangs” through which bursts of purposeful information infused the biosphere. 

The most recent treatments of this theme include biologist Michael Denton’s The Miracle of Man and philosopher of science Stephen Meyer’s Return of the God Hypothesis. Meyer’s book points to three scientific discoveries that demand a conclusion of purpose behind the cosmos (that the universe has a beginning, that it was fine-tuned for life from the start, that life is a form of information-processing technology). On the radical discontinuities in evolution that bespeak purpose and creativity, see Meyer and paleontologist Günter Bechly’s chapter (“The Fossil Record and Universal Common Ancestry”) in the volume Theistic Evolution.

“The Wheel Has Turned”

From a different perspective, Denton explains this beautifully and profoundly. What Gleiser terms “intelligent, technology-savvy humans” are exactly what almost countless coincidences in nature have been set just so in order to permit. As Dr. Denton has written here about this “prior fitness” for human beings, creatures capable of manipulating fire, and therefore of engaging in technological invention:

Even though many mysteries remain, we can now, in these first decades of the 21st century, at last answer with confidence Thomas Huxley’s question of questions as to “the place which mankind occupies in nature and of his relations to the universe of things.” As matters stand, the evidence increasingly points to a natural order uniquely fit for life on Earth and for beings of a biology close to that of humans, a view which does not prove but is entirely consistent with the traditional Judeo-Christian framework….

“Mysteries remain,” as Denton acknowledges. Yet, “The wheel has turned.” Modern science calls us to recognize the role of providence in the history of the cosmos, of our planet, and of life. If that is true in cosmology and biology, it’s a hint that it might be true, too, on the far smaller scale of our individual biographies.

Full article at Evolution News.
Comments
AC at 60, They were lied to by the National Association to Repeal Abortion Laws, founded in 1968. So was the press and the rest of America. In 1972, I was watching TV and a nice woman appeared. She told people watching that abortion was a good idea. A family I knew, neighbors of mine, had a little girl, about 7. She walked up to my mom and said the following: "My mom was going to have a baby brother or baby sister but now she's not going to have one." I heard this in the 1970s. This isn't just about abortion. A group of radical, self-proclaimed feminists did everything they could to convince women in the 1970s that men, all men, were evil. That they would use you and abuse you and kick you and the kids to the curb in a heartbeat. Feminist icon, Gloria Steinem, said: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." I heard another neighbor of mine who had just had a baby, tell someone standing close by: "I don't need a man in my life." The minds of women were fed poison. That was followed by No-Fault Divorce and the cheapening of the marriage commitment. I saw ads like the following spread throughout the Classifieds in the local newspaper in the 1980s: "No kids? $75 and you're out. Call 800-DIVORCE." Worse were the so-called Adult Bookstores that sprang up in the 1970s. Aside from selling images of graphic intercourse, they had a thick publication filled with photos of nude and partly nude women looking for no strings attached sex, and their contact information. So those who were fighting against porn were met by lawyers defending the pornographers. Those who fought against abortion were met by supporters. People who no longer had to pay to fly to Mexico to get an abortion. By groups like Planned Parenthood, which apparently got money from nowhere, who opened clinics to help women get what they called "health care." The only reason to go to a doctor is if you are sick or have a broken limb. Abortion is not health care. The baby growing inside is not causing any problems for the woman in the majority of cases. But the 1970s created confusion for some people, and that was compounded with the idea that it was OK to have sex outside of marriage. That was the goal. So I urge you to never, ever describe this issue as a quick, easy, flip a switch and pass a law situation. If it WAS that easy, abortion would have been gone decades ago.relatd
August 9, 2022
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AC, Jesus himself said that many people will claim to have known Him, i.e. to be Christians, but He will reply that "I never knew you"
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
i.e. According to Jesus Himself, signing your name on a Church membership list is not enough. So tell me AC, who should I believe? You, when you say anyone can be a Christian no matter what they do or how they act, or Jesus when He says that only those who do the will of the Father shall enter heaven?
Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
bornagain77
August 9, 2022
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@bornagain77:
And I may claim to be a brain surgeon after reading a book on brain surgery, yet if I do not actually do the work of brain surgery then surely I am not really a brain surgeon.
You've ignored the part "sin and error are common among christians". We again can see a clear sign of selective hyperscepticism with absurd implications. You yourself have used the word "christian" many times in this thread wihtout having any clue about the works of those people. It's clear that even for you a christian is someone who identifies as a christian. Otherwise what the hell were you talking about??AndyClue
August 9, 2022
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@Relatd:
Quit generalizing, OK? Don’t do it. Be specific. How do you know millions of Christians have been involved in abortions? All I’m saying is to cite a credible source before you throw a general accusation out there.
Ok. I'll be specific. However I'll ignore bornagain77s selective hyper scepticism, which implies the absurdity that christianity might be a religion without any followers: You can actually use google to easily find polls about women having abortions by religious affiliation (do I really need to google it for you??). The numbers might surprise you. Also your ruling politicians and supreme justices, nearly everyone of them christian, have fought to make abortions legal. We have seen what the greatest generation did to nazis. They didn't have a nice chat with Hitler. They didn't whine on an internet forum. Instead they did what needed to be done to stop the insanity. Now, what did the current generation do to stop the slaughter in their own country?AndyClue
August 9, 2022
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AC at 54 states: "And yet they (the Supreme Court justices) swore on the bible. I think it’s normal for christians to claim to be christian." And I may claim to be a brain surgeon after reading a book on brain surgery, yet if I do not actually do the work of brain surgery then surely I am not really a brain surgeon. Such as it is with Christianity. As Jesus Himself said
Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
bornagain77
August 9, 2022
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AC at 40, Quit generalizing, OK? Don't do it. Be specific. How do you know millions of Christians have been involved in abortions? All I'm saying is to cite a credible source before you throw a general accusation out there. To everyone reading. Certain pagan-atheist groups have been trying to make abortion seem like it's no big deal. As if a baby does not die during an abortion. THEY are hoping that saying the same lie year after year after year after year will convince women that A) It's OK to have sex with any random guy I want, and B) Abortion is OK. Do you know what the BIG problem is in the West right now? No proper dating, leading to healthy marriages, leading to children. By sacrificing babies to the pagan god of Secularism, too many women have fallen for the lie. Too many women have deluded themselves into thinking "I don't need a man." Look at the prison population in the U.S. Do you know what was lacking in the lives of many of those young men? Fathers. Men willing to take responsibility for getting the woman pregnant after establishing a stable, normal household.relatd
August 9, 2022
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In order to try to counterbalance the unmitigated horror committed by the atheistic/Darwinian regimes of the Nazis and Communists over the last century, Seversky reaches over the entire span of Christianity’s 2000 years of existence and cherry picks atrocities to try to claim that Christianity is as murderous as the atheistic/Darwinian regimes have been over the last century. And although I would contest many of his examples, (like slave trade for instance), In rebuttal to Sev's preposterous claim that Christianity is a murderous let me first point out that Christ himself, rather than call down 12 legions of angels to slay his enemies submitted himself instead to death on a Cross by the hands of his enemies: Matthew 26:52-53 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? Moreover, Christ himself commanded his followers to not return evil for evil but to return good for evil: Matthew 5:38-40 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. In fact, Jesus instead of commanding his followers to kill those who did not believe, (as Mohammad told his followers to do), instead told his followers to endure persecution. John 15:20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. In fact, all the disciples, save for John, suffered martyrs deaths. Did the Apostles Really Die as Martyrs for their Faith? By Sean McDowell http://magazine.biola.edu/article/13-fall/did-the-apostles-really-die-as-martyrs-for-their-f/ Martyrdom has been a staple of Christianity throughout Christian history: The New Encyclopedia of Christian Martyrs – September 1, 2001 https://www.amazon.com/New-Encyclopedia-Christian-Martyrs/dp/0801012252 Modern Atheists, starting with the French revolution, to Communist Russia to present day China have been particularly brutal and murderous of professing Christians. The murderous brutality of present day Muslims against Christians in the middle east hardly needs to be mentioned since they often behead their Christian victims on TV. In fact, Christianity easily qualifies for the most persecuted religion in the world today: Persecuted: The Global Assault on Christians http://www.amazon.com/Persecuted-The-Global-Assault-Christians/dp/1400204410 Knowing our world: The three major reasons for persecution of Christians worldwide – Denyse O’Leary Excerpt: The world-wide picture is sobering. Pew Research Center, Newsweek, and The Economist all agree that Christians are the world’s most widely persecuted group. Marshall and team offer information about three quite different reasons for persecution by different types of regimes (pp. 9–11): First, there is post-Communist persecution, following the collapse of Communism in the late 1980s, where the regimes ” … have since retreated to an onerous policy of registration, supervision, and control. Those who will not be controlled are sent to prison or labor camps, or simply held, abused, and sometimes tortured.” The most intense persecutor is the still Communist (not post-Communist) regime, North Korea (pp. 9–10). There, “Christians are executed or sent to prison camps for lengthy terms for such crimes as the mere possession of a Bible.” Second, in some countries, “Hindu or Buddhist religious movements equate their religion with the nature and meaning of their country itself.” They persecute minority tribes as well as religions (pp. 10–11). These countries include Sri Lanka, Nepal, and Bhutan. Third, of course the Muslim world where “Even though the remaining Communist countries persecute the most Christians, it is in the Muslim world where persecution of Christians is now most widespread, intense, and, ominously, increasing. Extremist Muslims are expanding their presence and sometimes exporting their repression of all other faiths. … Even ancient churches, such as the two-thousand-year-old Chaldean and Assyrian churches of Iraq and the Coptic churches of Egypt, are under intense threat at this time. (p. 11).” http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2013/03/30/knowing-world-major-reasons-persecution-christians-worldwide/ That hardly sounds like Christianity is the murderous religion that Seversky is falsely trying to portray Christianity as being. Thus in conclusion, for Seversky to cherry pick atrocities throughout Christian history that were done by people in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ, is to be severely biased against Christianity and is to blatantly ignore the true ‘persecuted’ history of Christianity. In fact, Christianity, and Christianity alone, far from being a extremely murderous religion as Atheism and Islam are, has instead been the foundation from which the world has been blessed with much goodness time and time again: 21 Positive Contributions Christianity Has Made Through the Centuries By D. James Kennedy (excerpted from “What if Jesus Had Never Been Born?”) (1) Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages. (2) Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the world’s greatest universities were started for Christian purposes. (3) Literacy and education for the masses. (4) Capitalism and free enterprise. (5) Representative government, particularly as it has been seen in the American experiment. (6) The separation of political powers. (7) Civil liberties. (8) The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in more modern times. (9) Modern science. (10) The discovery of the New World by Columbus. (11) The elevation of women. (12) Benevolence and charity; the good Samaritan ethic. (13) Higher standards of justice. (14) The elevation of common man. (15) The condemnation of adultery, homosexuality, and other sexual perversions. This has helped to preserve the human race, and it has spared many from heartache. (16) High regard for human life. (17) The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures. (18) The codifying and setting to writing of many of the world’s languages. (19) Greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art. (20) The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel. (21) The eternal salvation of countless souls. https://verticallivingministries.com/tag/benefits-of-christianity-to-society/ From ‘Evidence for Christianity’, Josh McDowell, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ, also cites many examples of Christianity’s positive influence on the world. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human life Verse and Video: John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words “The Lamb” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQbornagain77
August 9, 2022
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AC at 54, You are uninformed. Every trick in the book had to be used to legalize pagan baby killing. https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaksrelatd
August 9, 2022
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Seversky at 52, Mass Killings under Communist Regimes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimesrelatd
August 9, 2022
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@bornagain77:
It was (secularists who claimed to be) christians who legalized abortion. That’s a fact.
And yet they swore on the bible. I think it's normal for christians to claim to be christian. Plus sin and error are common among christians. It's weird that you try to dismiss and deny the testimony of your fellow christianists and still talk about "christians" in all your posts. We can see a clear sign of selective hyperscepticism acting here. Chrstianity is all about Jesus, bro.AndyClue
August 9, 2022
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Seversky at 46, You know how you come off? I am 100% Perfect. I have been certified 100% Perfect by the Official Board of Perfectionists. AND I am a self-appointed Official Accuser (TM). "I’m anti-Christian nationalism" How about Marxist-Atheist Nationalism? Yes or no. "anti-theocracy" How about atheism as the State religion? "anti government-mandated indoctrination of children in a state-sponsored religion or political ideology." Too late. The state within a state has turned schools into Marxist-Atheist reeducation camps. Just like the Hippies who told young people to not listen to their parents and religious leaders. "There is a long-standing campaign in the US to sweep under the carpet the worst excesses of racial violence" Be specific. Who is doing this? Name them. "the abuse of women" OOOOOH, the abuse of women. You know who abused women? Radical feminists pushing birth control and abortion - without apology. To make baby killing an acceptable pagan practice. And the same people behind No-Fault Divorce. "oppression of minority ethnic groups." I'm a member of a minority ethnic group but I probably fall outside of the Accusation Zone because I'm white. And now for The BIG LIE. "Of all people, I would have hoped Christians would be vociferous in exposing and condemning these offenses not trying to hide from them." Who is hiding from them? Me? Name names. Do It! If you're going to accuse a group of people, name names as opposed to THEY'RE ALL LIKE THAT! Do the police arrest an entire apartment building because of a crime that happened on the first floor and there were no actual witnesses? But you. You live in Perfect Land where everything is perfect. And if it wasn't for those CHRISTIANS standing in the way, we could make more progress in turning this country into an Atheist-Sexual Pervert Paradise!relatd
August 9, 2022
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How Many People Have Been Killed in the Name of Religion? The Crusades: 6,000,000 Thirty Years War: 11,500,000 French Wars of Religion: 4,000,000 Second Sudanese Civil War: 2,000,000 Lebanese Civil War: 250,000 Muslim Conquests of India: 80,000,000 Congolese Genocide (King Leopold II): 13,000,000 Armenian Genocide: 1,500,000 Rwandan Genocide: 800,000 Eighty Years' War: 1,000,000 Nigerian Civil War: 1,000,000 Great Peasants' Revolt: 250,000 First Sudanese Civil War: 1,000,000 Jewish Diaspora (Not Including the Holocaust): 1,000,000 The Holocaust (Jewish and Homosexual Deaths): 6,500,000 Islamic Terrorism Since 2000: 150,000 Iraq War: 500,000 US Western Expansion (Justified by "Manifest Destiny"):20,000,000 Atlantic Slave Trade (Justified by Christianity): 14,000,000 Aztec Human Sacrifice: 80,000 AIDS deaths in Africa largely due to opposition to condoms: 30,000,000 Spanish Inquisition: 5,000 TOTAL: 195,035,000 deaths in the name of religion.
Seversky
August 9, 2022
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Seversky, 250 million dead at the hands of atheistic tyrants who were influenced by Darwinian ideology speaks for itself and there is really nothing left to be said. That you would even try to muster a defense against such unimaginable horror tells far more of your own hostile anti-Christian bias than it does anything else. Sev, as to the 'miracle' video I listed. Miracles, (even though one miracle would be enough to refute your atheistic worldview), are far more common than you believe.
Do Miracles Happen Today? Yes! The Latest Evidence. - Dr. Craig Keener - Oct. 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBFZJ5M53r4
bornagain77
August 9, 2022
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Bornagain77/36
This testimony just brought tears to my eyes. How Jesus saved a (very stubborn) atheist on her death bed ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4UClSWEU4M
I have two questions about that video. First, how do you know it's true and not made up for the purpose of social media celebrity? We know there are people who will say and do almost anything for fame of some sort. Second, why would God send an "angel" to help just her and not all other other unfortunates who live with the discomfort or even agony of Crohn's? It's just another example of someone thanking God for their miraculous delivery from death and forgetting about all the others in the same situation who died instead. Surely, if God was responsible for saving the life of one person He is also responsible for allowing the deaths of all the others that He could have saved but didn't.Seversky
August 9, 2022
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Bornagain77/28
At post 22 Seversky ignores the very real practical and pragmatic benefits of believing in God, i.e. greater benefits for mental and physical health, and states, “That was certainly true in the past when being an atheist could seriously damage your health if you fell into the hands of the more zealous believers who held that the only good atheist was a dead atheist.”
Yes, Christians, amongst others, suffered at the hands of atheist political ideologies in the twentieth century but atheists, if they were foolish enough to admit to their lack of belief, were reviled and killed by Christians for thousands of years before. And they still are today in some parts of the world. In the US, until very recently, the chances of an admitted atheist being elected to high public office was in the snowball-in-hell range.
In fact, it can be forcefully argued, and is a self-evident fact, that governments based on Judeo-Christian principles lead to more freedom for all people, including atheists, whilst governments founded on atheistic principles lead to totalitarian hellholes that are horrible places to live, even horrible places for atheists to live in.
Where in the Bible is there an endorsement of representative democracy, a wall of separation between church and state, an independent judiciary and statutory protections for rights such as freedom of thought and expression? And there are choices other than theocracies or brutal totalitarian regimes. There are relatively benign socialist democracies in Europe that offer better and more equitable standards of living, depending on how you measure such things, than the US.
So tell me Seversky, do you really want to go back to those good ole days of atheistic utopias where those supposedly evil Christians were rounded-up, reeducated, and/or killed?
There's never been an atheist Utopia, so there's nothing to look back to.Seversky
August 9, 2022
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AC: "It was christians who legalized abortion. That’s a fact." correction. It was (secularists who claimed to be) christians who legalized abortion. That’s a fact. There, all better. Moreover, since we are on the subject of secularists on the Supreme Court, and what led to the removal of prayer from school ruling, and the abortion ruling, the entire 'separation of church and state' issue that lies at the heart of those rulings is interesting to look at.
Hugo Black and the real history of "the wall of separation between church and state" - 2011 Excerpt: So how does this invocation of "wall of separation between church and state" become Supreme Court doctrine, extending from a casual phrase by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to an obscure comment in an 1878 Supreme Court ruling on bigamy to a pervasive doctrine of anti-religious censorship in the public square in the 21st century? Here's how: On August 11, 1921 Fr. James Coyle, a Roman Catholic priest in Birmingham, Alabama, was shot to death on the porch of his rectory by E.R. Stephensen, a local Ku Klux Klansman. Fr. Coyle had just performed a wedding between Stephensen's daughter and her Puerto Rican husband. Stephenson was defended by five lawyers, four of whom were Klan members. The fifth lawyer who volunteered to defend Stephenson was Hugo Black, a prominent local attorney. Despite the fact that the Catholic priest was unarmed and the murder was committed in public in front of witnesses, Stephensen was acquitted of murder based on "self-defense"and "temporary insanity". Defense attorney Black joined the Ku Klux Klan after the trial. In the Klan, Black was a Kladd of the Klavern, which was an initiator of new Klansmen. From The Volokh Conspiracy: ... Black was head of new members for the largest Klan cell in the South. New members of the KKK had to pledge their allegiance to the “eternal separation of Church and State.”... Separation was a crucial part of the KKK’s jurisprudential agenda. It was included in the Klansman’s Creed... Several years later, Black ran for U.S. Senate from Alabama. He barnstormed the state, campaigning on a virulent anti-Catholic platform and demanding "a wall of separation between church and state". His strongest support came from his Klan base, and he gave many anti-Catholic "wall of separation" speeches to Klan meetings across Alabama. Black, a Democrat, won the Alabama senate seat in 1926, defeating his Republican opponent with 80.9 % of the vote. He easily won re-election in 1932, with 86.3 % of the vote. He was a staunch defender of FDR's New Deal and of Roosevelt's court-packing plan. In 1937 Roosevelt appointed Black to the Supreme Court. Despite controversy about his Klan history, Black was easily confirmed. He quickly acquired a reputation for idiosyncratic interpretation of the Constitution. In 1947, Justice Hugo Black wrote the majority opinion in Everson v. Board of Education, the landmark Establishment Clause Supreme Court decision that barred use of tax revenues to transport children to religious (Catholic) schools. Justice Black wrote: No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'" 330 U.S. 1, 15-16 [emphasis mine] In 1962, Justice Hugo Black wrote the majority opinion in Engel v. Vitale, the landmark Establishment Clause Supreme Court decision that outlawed prayer in public schools. Justice Black wrote: The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government. [emphasis mine] Justice Hugo Black began his political career in the wake of his successful defense of a Klansman who murdered a Catholic priest. The modern application of the non-Constitutional doctrine "a wall of separation between church and state" derives from Black, a former Kladd of the Klavern of the Alabama Ku Klux Klan, who used his Klan base to secure a Senate seat and ultimately an appointment on the Supreme Court. The phrase "a wall of separation between church and state" played little role in jurisprudence until the mid-20th century. The doctrine has long played a large cultural role, preserved by pervasive anti-Catholic bigotry through organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan, and became a 'Constitutional principle' through the jurisprudence of an anti-Catholic bigot. It is used today to suppress prayer and religious expression in all public schools in the United States. Why is it that discussions of the "separation of church and state" don't generally include the cultural and political history of the "doctrine"? Why is the central role that "separation" played in the political and judicial rise of Justice Black-- the father of modern Establishment Clause jurisprudence-- never seems to show up in New York Times Op-Ed columns or NPR's "All Things Considered"? Ever see a press release by Americans United for Separation of Church and State note the fact that "an eternal separation of church and state" was a part of the KKK’s jurisprudential agenda and the Klansmen's Creed, and that one of those Klansmen jurists wrote the Supreme Court opinions establishing "separation of church and state" as the law under which we live? http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/10/hugo-black-and-real-history-of-wall-of.html Charlie Daniels: Separation of Church & State Is Not About ‘Religion’; It’s a Battle Against Christianity By Charlie Daniels | September 18, 2017 Excerpt: Many people think there is a section in the Constitution, or somewhere in the federal papers that demands separation of church and state, but there is no such terminology. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...” Separation of church and state is part of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, whose original intent was far from what the enemies of public displays of religion would have you believe. https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/charlie-daniels/charlie-daniels-separation-church-state-not-about-religion-its-battle
Of related note to the removal of prayer from public schools, (and as David Barton pointed out in the video I listed previously in post 43), in public schools SAT scores have dropped precipitously from the number 1 spot in the world since the removal of prayer from schools, whereas in private Christian schools they have stayed at the same high, i.e. number 1, level as they were prior to the removal of prayer from public schools. In fact, "Classical, Christian Education (score) Higher SAT Scores Than All Other School Types “Without Even Trying”
Classical, Christian Education: Higher SAT Scores Than All Other School Types “Without Even Trying” – Tom Owens on Jan 17, 2020 One of the distinguishing features of classical education is we refuse to “teach to the test.” Instead, we immerse students in the great conversation of Western, Christian Civilization, exposing them early and often to the best minds humanity has ever produced. We seek the intellectual, moral, and spiritual development of our students above all, but when it comes to the standardized tests obsessed over in conventional schools, we are content to “let the chips fall where they may.” Yet, in following the wisdom of the ancients in our approach, the results speak for themselves. Member schools of the Association of Christian & Classical Schools (ACCS) produce students whose SAT scores are, on average, 325 points higher than public schools, 191 points higher than conventional religious schools, and 138 points higher than secular private high schools. How does this happen when most classical schools don’t formally prep for the SAT as part of the curriculum? Why does it seem like ACCS students easily handle the SAT “without even trying?” https://www.dominionschool.com/dominion-blog/classical-christian-education-higher-sat-scores-than-all-other-school-types-without-even-trying
Verse:
John 13:13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
bornagain77
August 9, 2022
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BA77/43 Answer a couple questions for me straight up without a bunch of embellishment: Are you in favor of prayer in public schools? How do you square prayer in public schools with the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment?chuckdarwin
August 9, 2022
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Kairosfocus/24
Sev, pardon your anti-Christian, anti-civilisation, anti-, anti-education bias is showing.
I'm not anti-Christianity nor anti-civilization nor education. I'm anti-Christian nationalism, anti-theocracy and anti government-mandated indoctrination of children in a state-sponsored religion or political ideology.
You know full well that even were the schools in Canada abusive as you imply, that would have been exceptional. And there is evidence already raised here at UD that the picture painted is distorted.
There is more than sufficient evidence for the abusive and unethical nature of these schools in both Canada and the US.
The ongoing, accelerating manipulation, indoctrination and too often moral desensitisation, corruption and outright grooming under colours of science, wokism, secularism etc is manifestly indefensible and should be properly and duly reformed.
There is a long-standing campaign in the US to sweep under the carpet the worst excesses of racial violence, the abuse of women and the oppression of minority ethnic groups. Of all people, I would have hoped Christians would be vociferous in exposing and condemning these offenses not trying to hide from them.Seversky
August 9, 2022
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"USA has been ruled by christians for decades." AC, Perhaps they called themselves Christians. But when you become part of the ruling class these days, you have to modify and/or eliminate a lot of what would make a person a serious Christian. For instance, a commitment to the truth would have to be discarded. Andrewasauber
August 9, 2022
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@bornagain77:
Abortion was ‘legalized’ in 1973 by judicial fiat, i.e. legislation from the bench, by a left leaning, i.e. secular, Supreme Court
I've never said anything about liberal, conservatives or whatever political party they were part of. The court was always stacked by christians. It was christians who legalized abortion. That's a fact.AndyClue
August 9, 2022
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AC, you might want to check your history a little more closely before you try to lay abortion at the feet of Christians. Like the removal of prayer from school, abortion was never put up for a vote before the American people. Much less was it ever put up for a vote before Christians in particular. Abortion was 'legalized' in 1973 by judicial fiat, i.e. legislation from the bench, by a left leaning, i.e. secular, Supreme Court which struck down a Texas law banning abortion. And all subsequent legal challenges to abortion, via Christians and others, in the following decades were effectively shut down by the same left-leaning, secular, Supreme Court. It was only by patiently waiting, and eventually securing a conservative majority on the Supreme Court that Christians were finally able to have a voice on abortion. In short, a few secular minded justices have refused to ever give the Christian majority of America a fair say on abortion, (much less a fair say on prayer in school). Moreover, both secular decisions on prayer and abortion by the Supreme Court have had devastating effects on America. Plus 60 million deaths in America due to abortion since 1973 hardly needs to be belabored and makes Hitler's holocaust look tame in comparison. As well, the removal of prayer from public schools by the secular leaning Supreme Court, like abortion, has also had tragic consequences.
The Devastating Effects When Prayer Was Removed From School in America in 1962-63 - David Barton - video (excerpted from Barton’s “America’s Godly Heritage’ lecture) https://youtu.be/1No--GpdqCY If anyone doubts those sobering numbers cited by David Barton, here is the raw data on crime statistics for America from 1960 to 2019: United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2019 (Please note the skyrocketing crime rate from 1963, the year prayer was removed from school, thru 1980, the year the steep climb in crime rate finally leveled off.) of note: The slight decline in the violent crime rate at the mid 90s is attributed in large part to tougher enforcement on minor crimes (i.e. New York’s ‘spitting on the sidewalk’ enforcement). http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
bornagain77
August 9, 2022
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@bornagain77:
Christians support abortion? Huh??? What???
USA has been ruled by christians for decades. The supreme court has been stacked with christians for decades. There are millions of christians at arms. Chrstianity is the biggest religious group. Yet the holocaust has been ongoing for decades.AndyClue
August 9, 2022
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AC: "That may explain why the christianists have slaughtered millions of children on the altar of abortion." Christians support abortion? Huh??? What??? If by 'christianists' you actually mean people who are Christians in name only, but are not Christians in practice, you should make that point clear. Abortion has been widely, and historically, opposed by Christianity. In fact, It is no exaggeration to say that Christianity has been the primary and main cultural force that has been steadfastly opposed to abortion. In fact, Abortion, like the totalitarian hellholes of Communism and Nazism, finds its roots in Darwin's atheistic ideology,
Birth control leader Margaret Sanger: Darwinist, racist and eugenicist by Jerry Bergman Margaret Sanger was the founder of Planned Parenthood, the leading organization advocating abortion in the United States today. Darwinism had a profound influence on her thinking, including her conversion to, and active support of, eugenics. She was specifically concerned with reducing the population of the ‘less fit’, including ‘inferior races’ such as ‘Negroes’. One major result of her lifelong work was to support the sexual revolution that has radically changed our society.,,, As Sanger stressed in a talk given at the Fifth International Neo-Malthusian and Birth Control Conference, the end goal of her movement was to produce a superior race: ‘To-day the average reliance of civilization is based upon iron and steel, bricks and mortar, and we must change this to the construction and evolution of humanity itself 24 ’. To do this she advocated euthanasia, segregation in work camps, sterilization and abortion.25 She was very successful in achieving this goal—more than half of the American states launched programs that sterilized their ‘unfit … with Virginia, California, and Kansas leading the way’.25,,, Many churches opposed Sanger because she championed ‘sex without consequences’, eugenics, abortion and concentration camps for the unfit—all practices that Christianity has historically opposed.42 She stressed that she was against especially the Catholic Church because they opposed ‘science’, evolution, eugenics and race improvement.43 Sanger sought out allegiances with eugenicists to help blunt the opposition to her from the religious community.44 The church’s view that the handicapped, diseased and deformed were all equals in the eyes of God ‘struck Sanger as anathema to the dictates of the Brave New World’ that she wanted to create.45 She even argued that persons ‘whose religious scruples prevent their exercising control over their numbers’ were ‘irresponsible and reckless’ and that the ‘procreation of this group should be stopped’.46 https://creation.com/margaret-sanger-darwinian-eugenicist The Historic Connection Between Eugenics and Abortion JUSTIN TAYLOR | JANUARY 27, 2017 Excerpt: many (Darwinists) believed that eugenics required the restriction of births by inferior people.,,, Sanger noted elsewhere, “Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly. The most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the overfertility of the mentally and physically defective.” Sanger went on to found the American Birth Control League (1921), which became the Planned Parenthood Federation of America in 1946. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/the-historic-connection-between-eugenics-and-abortion/ How Darwin's Theory Changed the World Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htm
Again, the 'slaughter of millions of children on the altar of abortion' finds its roots in Darwin's 'death as the creator' ideology. And certainly does not find its roots within Christianity.
How Has Darwinism Negatively Impacted Society? – John G. West – January 11, 2022 Excerpt: Death as the Creator A third big idea fueled by Darwin’s theory is that the engine of progress in the history of life is mass death. Instead of believing that the remarkable features of humans and other living things reflect the intelligent design of a master artist, Darwin portrayed death and destruction as our ultimate creator. As he wrote at the end of his most famous work: “Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.”13 https://evolutionnews.org/2022/01/how-has-darwinism-negatively-impacted-society/
Verse:
Psalm 139:13-14 For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works, and I know this very well.
bornagain77
August 9, 2022
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@Alan Fox
Atheistic utopia must be a synonym for totalitarian regime, I guess.
Apparently militant chirstianism has lead its worshippers to mental retardation, that they now claim, that murdering millions is an utopia. That may explain why the christianists have slaughtered millions of children on the altar of abortion.AndyClue
August 8, 2022
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There is a nuance to be had for 250 million dead at the hands of atheistic totalitarian regimes which find their roots in Darwinian ideology?
Atheism’s Body Count * It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao’s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties. These murders are all upon their own people! This number does not include the countless dead in their wars of outward aggression waged in the name of the purity of atheism’s world view. China invades its peaceful, but religious neighbor, Tibet; supports N. Korea in its war against its southern neighbor and in its merciless oppression of its own people; and Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge kill up to 6 million with Chinese support. All of these actions done “in the name of the people” to create a better world. – per scholar’s corner Chairman MAO: Genocide Master (Black Book of Communism) “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/ Hitler, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao – quotes - Foundational Darwinian influence in their political ideologies March 2022 https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/david-berlinski-the-bad-boy-philosopher-who-doubts-darwinism-is-back/#comment-749756
Verse:
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
bornagain77
August 8, 2022
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Good grief, you guys can't handle nuance, can you? You're so tribal. My point is that political opportunists exploit whatever means to power is available to them. Putin uses Patriarch Kirill, Trump exploits the religious right, Kim Jong Un relaxed restrictions on religious activity to demonstrate his benign generosity to his people. Jesus was no totalitarian; he rejected the offer in Sinai.Alan Fox
August 8, 2022
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Bornagain77, Wow, me too. Thanks for sharing this testimony! I especially appreciated when she related that when Jesus said, "It is finished," it meant the end of (human-based) religion. When I was in college, a friend of mine was in a large lecture class listening to a professor criticize the Christian faith. Finally, my friend raised his hand to ask a question. The professor recognized him, and my friend stood up, took out an orange and started peeling it. "What's your question?" asked the prof. "Just a minute," answered my friend, who then took a big bite of the orange. After chewing an swallowing, he asked the prof, "My question is, was the orange sweet or sour?" "How should I know," answered the annoyed prof. "Exactly," said my friend and sat down. -QQuerius
August 8, 2022
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This testimony just brought tears to my eyes. How Jesus saved a (very stubborn) atheist on her death bed :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4UClSWEU4Mbornagain77
August 8, 2022
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Ba77 at 31, I saw a photo of two teenage girls shoveling coal out of the back of a truck. North Korea needs money for missiles capable of hitting the United States. That way, they can fill boats with hungry people and send them over. Pure insanity.relatd
August 8, 2022
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AF at 30, You just won the 2022 International Troll Award. It should be arriving shortly.relatd
August 8, 2022
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