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At Evolution News: Rosenhouse’s Whoppers: The Environment as a Source of Information

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William Dembski writes:

I am responding again to Jason Rosenhouse about his book The Failures of Mathematical Anti-Evolutionism. See my earlier posts here and here.

In Rosenhouse’s book, he claims that “natural selection serves as a conduit for transmitting environmental information into the genomes of organisms.” (p. 215) I addressed this claim briefly in my review, indicating that conservation of information shows it to be incomplete and inadequate, but essentially I referred him to technical work by me and colleagues on the topic. In his reply, he remains, as always, unpersuaded. So let me here give another go at explaining the role of the environment as a source of information for Darwinian evolution. As throughout this response, I’m addressing the unwashed middle.

Darwinian evolution depends on selection, variation, and replication working within an environment. How selection, variation, and replication play out, however, depends on the particulars of the environment. Take a simple example, one that Rosenhouse finds deeply convincing and emblematic for biological evolution, namely, Richard Dawkins’s famous METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL simulation (pp. 192–194 of Rosenhouse’s book). Dawkins imagines an environment consisting of sequences of 28 letters and spaces, random variations of those letters, and a fitness function that rewards sequences to the degree that they are close to (i.e., share letters with) the target sequence METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL. 

So What’s the Problem?

The problem is not with the letter sequences, their randomization, or even the activity of a fitness function in guiding such an evolutionary process, but the very choice of fitness function. Why did the environment happen to fixate on METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL and make evolution drive toward that sequence? Why not a totally random sequence? The whole point of this example is to suggest that evolution can produce something design-like (a meaningful phrase, in this case, from Shakespeare’s Hamlet) without the need for actual design. But most fitness functions would evolve toward random sequences of letters and spaces. So what’s the difference maker in the choice of fitness? If you will, what selects the fitness function that then selects for fitness in the evolutionary process? Well, leaving aside some sort of interventional design (and not all design needs to be interventional), it’s got to be the environment. 

But that’s the problem. What renders one environment an interesting source of evolutionary change given selection, variation, and replication but others uninteresting? Most environments, in fact, don’t lead to any interesting form of evolution. Consider Sol Spiegelman’s work on the evolution of polynucleotides in a replicase environment. One thing that makes real world biological evolution interesting, assuming it actually happens, is that it increases information in the items that are undergoing evolution. Yet Spiegelman demonstrated that even with selection, variation, and replication in play, information steadily decreased over the course of his experiment. Brian Goodwin, in his summary of Spiegelman’s work, highlights this point (How the Leopard Changed Its Spots, pp. 35–36):

In a classic experiment, Spiegelman in 1967 showed what happens to a molecular replicating system in a test tube, without any cellular organization around it. The replicating molecules (the nucleic acid templates) require an energy source, building blocks (i.e., nucleotide bases), and an enzyme to help the polymerization process that is involved in self-copying of the templates. Then away it goes, making more copies of the specific nucleotide sequences that define the initial templates. But the interesting result was that these initial templates did not stay the same; they were not accurately copied. They got shorter and shorter until they reached the minimal size compatible with the sequence retaining self-copying properties. And as they got shorter, the copying process went faster. So what happened with natural selection in a test tube: the shorter templates that copied themselves faster became more numerous, while the larger ones were gradually eliminated. This looks like Darwinian evolution in a test tube. But the interesting result was that this evolution went one way: toward greater simplicity.

Simple and Yet Profound

At issue here is a simple and yet profound point of logic that continually seems to elude Darwinists as they are urged to come to terms with how it can be that the environment is able to bring about the information that leads to any interesting form of evolution. And just to be clear, what makes evolution interesting is that it purports to build all the nifty biological systems that we see around us. But most forms of evolution, whether in a biology lab or on a computer mainframe, build nothing interesting. 

The logical point at issue here is one the philosopher John Stuart Mill described back in the 19th century. He called it the “method of difference” and laid it out in his System of Logic. According to this method, to discover which of a set of circumstances is responsible for an observed difference in outcomes requires identifying a circumstance that is present when the outcome occurs and absent when it doesn’t occur. An immediate corollary of this method is that common circumstances cannot explain a difference in outcomes

So if selection, variation, and replication operating within an environment can produce wildly different types of evolution (information increasing, information decreasing, interesting, uninteresting, engineering like, organismic like, etc.), then something else besides these factors needs to be in play. Conservation of information says that the difference maker is information built into the environment. 

In any case, the method of difference shows that such information cannot be reducible to Darwinian processes, which is to say, to selection, variation, and replication (because these are common to all forms of Darwinian evolution). Darwinists, needless to say, don’t like that conclusion. But they are nonetheless stuck with it. The logic is airtight and it means that their theory is fundamentally incomplete. For more on this, see my article with Bob Marks titled “Life’s Conservation Law” (especially section 8). 

Evolution News

Dembski’s conclusions are consistent with expectations from information theory and the generalized 2nd law of thermodynamics; namely, that natural processes cause a system to lose information over the passage of time. If an increase in information is seen in any system (such as life from non-life, or the appearance of novel, functional body plans or physiological systems), then natural processes cannot have been the cause. If not natural, then the increase in information must have come from an intelligent agent (the only known source of functional information).

Comments
comment by Joe Felsenstein
He was the focus of attention a couple weeks and it turned out to be irrelevant. Similarly here. Complexity is an easily understood idea. Felstein’s comment is essentially nonsense. It’s not clear what he is talking about. Specificity and complexness are completely different things.jerry
September 3, 2022
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Talking about "information" and "complexity", here is an apposite comment by Joe Felsenstein on The Panda's Thumb
(1) "complexity" in the Specified Complexity literature does not mean something like complicatedness. It just means improbability, under some null distribution. This is not a terminological mess due to creationists, but was a terminological mess originally made by Leslie Orgel, who is the originator of the notion of specified information. (2) Orgel did not in any way mean to imply that natural selection could not achieve a high level of specification (on some scale of goodness such as fitness). (3) William Dembski did mean that, though, and he justified this by saying that the probability was to be calculated based on "necessity" by which he meant to include all natural evolutionary mechanisms. Thus by definition it wasn't specified complexity if natural evolutionary processes could achieve it. (4) So the argument goes: we can show that SC cannot be achieved by natural selection. How? Because by definition if it can be achieved by natural selection it isn't to be called SC. So then how do we know there is SC? By showing (somehow, in ways mysterious) that this level of adaptation cannot be achieved by natural processes such as natural selection. So the whole argument over "specified complexity" achieves nothing you didn't already know, and SC cannot be diagnosed in some simple straightforward way.
Seversky
September 3, 2022
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F/N: Just for record, Orgel:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
Then, Wicken on wiring diagrams
‘Organized’systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions and/or repetitive stepwise procedures] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [ --> originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
The roots of my summary phrase are obvious, save to those threatened by the point.kairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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Declare yourself winner, KF, by all means.Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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AF, you can say what you want. It's clear you have failed to reckon with Orgel and Wicken. It is further clear that your stunt of objecting to code has failed. You are left to double down. Fail. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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KF, no big deal, but do you have an aversion to paragraphs?Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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AF, yet another rhetorical stunt.
Nope, I just disagree with you on some issues.
While I have followed others in using a metaphor, the underlying reality for Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I lies in Wicken’s “wiring diagram,” i.e. a specification as to ways components are arranged, oriented and coupled to achieve function.
Nope. FSCO/I is yours alone. You have yet to demonstrate how it works.
This inherently means there are vastly more ways for such parts to be clumped or scattered in non functional ways.
Agreed. Dawkins, too. There are many more ways of being dead than alive.
A bait bucket of reel parts can be shaken around all you want, you will predictably fail to get a functioning ABU 6500 C3. A tray of 500 coins can be flipped at random all you want, you will not get ascii code for 72 letters worth of coherent English text.
m'kay
Similarly...
Uh-oh!
...D/RNA and AAs can follow each other in any sequence, an arbitrary string of 900 bases is maximally implausible as forming an algorithm to form a 300 AA protein chain that will fold and function properly.
This is the "one-needle-in-a-haystack" argument that fails on several points. It is well documented that a function can be supplied by more than one sequence, that function does not need to arise all at once (promiscuity to specificity), that there does not need to be an exhaustive search to find a function. Function does not equal sequence.
We could go on and on but the point about islands of function is clear
No. You are imprisoned by your own poor analogy. Fitness landscapes change.
as is your determination to hyperskeptically dismiss anything that threatens your preferred narrative of origins.
Oddly, I don't feel threatened.
To that end you have posed on knowledge of biochem to dismiss the common consensus that D/RNA contains codes for protein synthesis. Only, to now be evading the likes of Lehninger’s intellectual heirs and Bruce Alberts. A sorry performance. KF
Happy for you to talk about codons, triplet codes, genetic code. The issue is not the names; it is how things work in reality.Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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AF, yet another rhetorical stunt. While I have followed others in using a metaphor, the underlying reality for Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I lies in Wicken's "wiring diagram," i.e. a specification as to ways components are arranged, oriented and coupled to achieve function. This inherently means there are vastly more ways for such parts to be clumped or scattered in non functional ways. A bait bucket of reel parts can be shaken around all you want, you will predictably fail to get a functioning ABU 6500 C3. A tray of 500 coins can be flipped at random all you want, you will not get ascii code for 72 letters worth of coherent English text. Similarly, D/RNA and AAs can follow each other in any sequence, an arbitrary string of 900 bases is maximally implausible as forming an algorithm to form a 300 AA protein chain that will fold and function properly. We could go on and on but the point about islands of function is clear, as is your determination to hyperskeptically dismiss anything that threatens your preferred narrative of origins. To that end you have posed on knowledge of biochem to dismiss the common consensus that D/RNA contains codes for protein synthesis. Only, to now be evading the likes of Lehninger's intellectual heirs and Bruce Alberts. A sorry performance. KF PS, for varying fitness landscapes I already pointed to slow changes and catastrophies. The image I use is of barrier islands drifting and changing in the geography. That does not solve the prior function of establishing a beachead of function to enable incremental hill climbing. There is no good reason to believe in a continent of functional forms.kairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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Evolutionary adaptation can and does happen, but within islands of function.
Excellent, KF. I think you are falling into another analogy trap, however. Niches can change. I assume you view the selection landscape as fixed. This is evidently not the case.Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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Do you want us to count the ways?kairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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David P writes:
I ask about successive rounds of variation and selection resulting in both adaptive change and no change and your reply is about continental drift, mountains, and sea levels?
That was in response to your remark I believe the word is stasis. What about that? which is incorrect and I was just pointing out evidence that undermines your belief.
I’m willing to listen but obviously you don’t have the answers.
That is rather premature. Though I'm far from the best person to help you discover the wonders of evolutionary biology.
This is a good example of why the tide is turning in the whole intelligent design debate.
Just because another random commenter on an obscure blog can't immediately convince you about evolution, you feel free to reject it? I think the rejection is deeper seated than that. As for "Intelligent Design", when someone can tell me how it works rather than how evolution doesn't, I'll begin to take t seriously.
When someone asks a legit question- why there’s no change in some species while they are still surviving, varying, and passing that variation on to the next generation….and the answer is to simply ignore it.
I disagree with the premise of your question. Nothing is in stasis. The rate of evolutionary change depends on circumstances, and there is no reason to think the net rate of change is constant.
Ever heard of Giovanni Domenico Cassini? The guy refused to even look through a telescope for fear it might challenge his beliefs about light being instantaneous.
Indeed I have. I assume you mention it to indicate there is something I'm avoiding. What do you think that is?Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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DP, pardon my comments. The core theorems of neo-darwinism can be summarised:
a: Incremental, chance variations [ICV] are caused by genetic variation aka mutation of various kinds [denial of Lamarckian thought] b: the environment poses a challenge so there is selection pressure where slight advantages lead to differential reproductive success DRS across ICVs, leading to descent with modification ICV + DRS --> DWM c: a wide variety of body plans are accessible (continent of functional forms, COFF) through DWM, so we have branching tree macro-evolution[BTME] thus descent with UNLIMITED MODIFICATION, [DWUM] and thence the tree of life [TOL] DWM + COFF --> BTME + DWUM --> TOL d: Stasis is the result of cases of robustly optimised organism populations [ROOP] at fitness functional peaks [FFP] which serve as point attractors giving genetic drift [GD] but stable body forms [SBF] TOL --> ROOP + FFP --> GD + SBF e: as the fitness landscape can vary gradually or catastrophically, we can have gradual loss of ROOP, or in some cases such as the 65 MYA impact, mass extinction and repopulation through fresh BTE, here, rise of mammals etc.
Notice, the continent of continual forms implicit assumption. This is critical and lacks support, starting with protein fold domains, so the basis for fresh tissue types, organ systems etc is a challenge. More broadly, Orgel-Wicken functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] requires many correct parts, correctly arranged and coupled to achieve function, so it naturally comes in islands widely separated by seas of non function. This includes that von Neumann/Drexler kinematic self replication is itself a huge increment in FSCO/I and is required for first cell based life. This issue was discussed in Paley Ch 2 of Nat Theol when he envisioned as a thought exercise a time keeping self replicating watch. He anticipated von Neumann by 150 years. This has been largely forgotten. So we have a vast configuration space for cells and body plans based on cells, but islands with viable cell types and body plans are deeply isolated in that space. To give an idea genome for first life would require 100 - 1,00+ kbases and body plans for multicellular organisms 10 - 100+ million. Bases are 4-state, two bits of info carrying capacity. The search resources of our sol system, 10^57 atoms or the observed cosmos 10^80, with 10^17 s and fast chem reaction rates of 10-14 s, could only sample a negligible fraction of the config space for 500 - 1,000 bits. This is the blind needle in haystack search challenge. Intelligence solves it by use of knowledge. Take the imagined continent and flood it with non functionality, what remains is isolated peaks. To get to origin of life and of body plans now becomes maximally implausible on blind chance and mechanical necessity, but is well within reach of design. Evolutionary adaptation can and does happen, but within islands of function. But it faces barriers to span the tree of life taxonomical framework at body plan level. Micro evolution is very different from macro. Hope this helps KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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Alan FOX @62 I ask about successive rounds of variation and selection resulting in both adaptive change and no change and your reply is about continental drift, mountains, and sea levels? I'm willing to listen but obviously you don't have the answers. This is a good example of why the tide is turning in the whole intelligent design debate. When someone asks a legit question- why there's no change in some species while they are still surviving, varying, and passing that variation on to the next generation....and the answer is to simply ignore it. Ever heard of Giovanni Domenico Cassini? The guy refused to even look through a telescope for fear it might challenge his beliefs about light being instantaneous.David P
September 3, 2022
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PS, see implications for when a self replicating facility is itself a huge increment in functionally specific organisation and information? See why active info from a knowledgeable designer is vastly more effective?kairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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F/N: Note, WmAD: >>Essentially, specified complexity or specified improbability involves two notions of complexity, one probabilistic, the other linguistic or descriptive. Thus we can speak of probabilistic complexity and descriptive complexity. Events become probabilistically more complex as they become more improbable (this is consistent with, as pointed out earlier, longer, more improbable sequences of coin tosses requiring longer bit strings to be recorded). At the same time, descriptive complexity characterizes patterns that describe events via a descriptive language. Descriptive complexity differs from probabilistic complexity and denotes the shortest description that will describe an event. The specification in specified complexity thus refers to patterns with short descriptions, and specified complexity refers to events that have high probabilistic complexity but whose identifying patterns have low descriptive complexity. >> That is, in functionality context, complex organisation deeply isolated in the space of possible configs, but simply describable relative to function. A Book length string of say 10^6 ASCII characters -- at 7 characters/word and 600 words/p. that's about a 240 pp book -- has 128^[10^6] possibilities, and it would be futile to try to generate by in effect flipping 10^6 coins over and over until a complex meaningful text in English emerges. That's long before we get to a book that people would buy and recommend. But, writers routinely generate such. They do so based on knowledge, skill, intent and possibilities for creating codices. Nor is there a good path where we can flip 49 coins at a time then catch a word, go on to the next 49 coins and repeat to get a coherent book length message. Setting up 20,000 trays of 49 coins and incrementally selecting the best chain so far would likely fail too. Say, typical 40 characters per line of code and 1,000 lines, we have 40,000 characters in a program. We can test, compile and run to see if it executes. Debugging tells us there is a big gap between it runs and is bug free. This is a case where background enables us to put ourselves near an island of function and debugging at least puts us on a beach. But there is no incremental functioning at every step path from hello world to Linux. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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I believe the word is stasis. What about that?
Well, it's a point of view. I believe you are mistaken and that change is a fundamental property of this universe (which is changing, expanding at this moment). Continents are drifting, mountains are eroding, sea level rising.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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Seversky @20: Information, in the context of this discussion, is given a thorough definition with applications to biology and origin of life in Hubert Yockey's book: Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life. https://www.amazon.com/Information-Theory-Evolution-Origin-Life/dp/0521169585.Caspian
September 2, 2022
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JVL, stop pretending and use some common sense. If something depends for function on particulars of configuration, significant perturbation deranges function; which is observable. Why are there auto parts stores, why do we distinguish meaningful from garbled text and further from gibberish, why do we speak about debugging and how challenging it is, why are we so afraid of effects of radioactivity on our cells, etc? [Back in rad physics the primary mechanism we discussed was, damage to the commonest molecule H2O then damaging impact on key biopolymers by resulting highly reactive species. This issue directly shows how DNA is sensitive to perturbation.] As to how much/metrics you know full well this has been on the table since Orgel. That is, description or specification length in binary digits. There is adjustment on redundancy etc but a basic measure is obvious and commonplace. That is why I pointed to file sizes for computers i/l/o what I did to free up space a few days ago; surely ypou know such files are functional and distinct from garbled or corrupt files or ullage on a disk or the like. . You full well know this has been on the table for years, your hyperskeptical pretence that it is not there, has not been measured or is not measurable is gaslighting rhetorical nonsense. KF PS, for record, Orgel
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
kairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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@Alan Fox at 45 Bickering about analogies is simpler than discussing the main point of this article or my seemingly impaired attempt at understanding evolution. I'm willing to listen and learn though. "Successive rounds of variation and selection result in adaptive change." Ok, got it. What about when successive rounds of variation and selection result in no adaptive change? I believe the word is stasis. What about that?David P
September 2, 2022
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Kairosfocus: Further, there is the question, are there reliable signs of ART, yes: start with FSCO/I, include irreducible complexity under the Menuge factors C1 – 5, go on to active information that puts you on a shoreline of function. the issue is how we get to lung fish as cell based life with a particular rather specialised body plan given the Lehninger point. Then we can debate theories as to how genome size can grow to seemingly anomalous size. Sigh. Why you cannot answer two simple and direct questions is a mystery. So, I shall restate my questions again! What criteria do you use to detect the presence of FSCO/I? AND how do you determine the amount of FSCO/I present? Please just answer those two basic questions. Thank you.JVL
September 2, 2022
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JVL, the issue is how we get to lung fish as cell based life with a particular rather specialised body plan given the Lehninger point. Then we can debate theories as to how genome size can grow to seemingly anomalous size. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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AF, strawman again. I pointed out how routinely we use measures of functional information on complex configuration in a digital world. The hyperskeptical, rhetorical pretence that FSCO/I is not routinely recognised and measured at first basic level itself speaks volumes about the self referential incoherence of objections like this. To object, you just created an instance of FSCO/I further exemplifying its known source, and you know it. This in the immediate context where you have yet to explain yourself on the pretence that it is not the general view of the informed that the cell has in it coded, string data structure, algorithmic information. KF PS, I remind you, on Lehninger's matter of fact summary:
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function." [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]
kairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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JVL, you full well know, stop hyperskeptically pretending it has not been on the table; beyond a point such is not innocent ignorance, but willful denial of facts. For record, the core logic is abductive inference to best explanation on tested reliable sign, first discussed on record by Hippocrates of Kos. As you further know, since Plato, with slight refinement, we explain on natural [= blind chance and/or necessity] vs the ART-ificial, i.e. intelligently designed configuration to an end. Notice, the common strawman on vs supernatural thence god of gaps, is just that, a strawman caricature. Notice too, process not agent, whodunit or howtweredun are onward investigations. There is therefore a double default causal inference, chance and/or lawlike necessity. Further, there is the question, are there reliable signs of ART, yes: start with FSCO/I, include irreducible complexity under the Menuge factors C1 - 5, go on to active information that puts you on a shoreline of function. Language expressed as complex text, especially algorithms [so, goal directed], complex fine tuning that puts one at a deeply isolated operating point in a configuration space, etc. These and the like are present in trillions of known cases and are reliable. In that context we have every right of valid scientific inference to conclude design in the world of life and cosmological origins, even as archaeologists infer to archaeology vs natural. And more, you have seen this many times but pretend it is not there, Fail. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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LtComData: If darwinism would be true the genome start small (with prokaryotes) and grow with small steps( new functions and systems ) toward the most complex creatures (humans) . This is not the case. I'd love to hear your explanation of why the marbled lungfish has a genome more than 40 times the size of the human genome. Are you here to provide scientific reasoning or just to throw doubt about?JVL
September 2, 2022
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marbled lungfish need a genome of 130 GB
:lol: Better keep quiet about because that is a big problem for darwinism. If darwinism would be true the genome start small (with prokaryotes) and grow with small steps( new functions and systems ) toward the most complex creatures (humans) . This is not the case. Genomes ListLieutenant Commander Data
September 2, 2022
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JVL, did you see what I did a few days ago?
Did you calculate the FSCO/I of something?Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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Kairosfocus: did you see what I did a few days ago? Start by looking at the file structure on your PC. Your hyperskeptical attitude is no\w self referentially absurd, you use technology to object that pivots on measuring FSCO/I. Look, just spell out your methodology. Computer file structure is not at all the same as biological structures. Just spell it out. Stop ducking and dodging. Just spell it out.JVL
September 2, 2022
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Wollemia? Let's fact check. Wollemia nobilisis a highly endangered species of tree recently found growing in a remote corner of New South Wales. It has no close living relatives and is considered more closely related to known fossil species. As always, there is nuance to the story that doesn't get reported. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollemia ETA there's a detailed description of the phylogenetic analysis that shows the relatedness to other species, living and extinct.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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JVL, did you see what I did a few days ago? Start by looking at the file structure on your PC. Your hyperskeptical attitude is no\w self referentially absurd, you use technology to object that pivots on measuring FSCO/I. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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Just spell out your methodology for detecting and measuring FSCO/I. Why won’t you do that?
I dunno. Maybe he can't.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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