At Mind Matters News: Must we be able to reason to be thought of as human persons?

_{Denyse O'Leary

May 15, 2022

Intelligent Design}

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Michael Egnor: A common argument as to why abortion is generally ethical is that the unborn child cannot reason:

But human life is a continuum precisely because every stage of human life — from zygote to senescence — is human. A zygote is just as much a human being as you and I are. You and I were just as much human beings when we were zygotes as we are now, and we will be just as much human beings when we are on our deathbeds as we are now.
Children in the womb at every stage are certainly human beings, just as we all are. Human life is a developmental process of actualization of potencies. We grow, physically, mentally, and spiritually. No one is less than human just because of age or stage of development or ratios of potency to actuality.
We are all human beings at every stage of life. Whether we are “persons” or not depends on the reigning moral and legal definition of “persons.” The moral quandary — the agonizing and contentious moral quandary in the abortion debate — is not whether zygotes or embryos or fetuses or newborns are human beings (they are), but whether they are persons worthy of respect and protection.
Michael Egnor, “Must we be able to reason to be thought of as human persons?” at Mind Matters News (May 15, 2022)

Takehome: Reason is a natural quality of the human being but, like everything in nature, it develops in stages. One can’t say it doesn’t exist when undeveloped.

You may also wish to read: Do babies really feel pain before they are self-aware? Michael Egnor discusses the fact that the thalamus, deep in the brain, creates pain. The cortex moderates it. Thus, juveniles may suffer more. Jonathan Wells recalls, from when he was a lab technologist, how very premature infants would scream when he took a drop of blood for tests.

Comments

Isaiah 45:7 The Hebrew words used for peace and evil in this verse are shalom and ra. The word shalom is a greeting and along with literally meaning “peace” it is an informal way of wishing someone well. Prior to this verse, Isaiah is describing how God is in complete control of the universe. The Israelite’s suffering is not the result of God being unable to fend off other evil gods, a belief common among non-Jews of the time. Rather, when the Israelites suffer, the prophet has made it clear that God is aware of their suffering and is directing it toward a good end. The Catholic RSV translates Isaiah 45:7 thusly: “I form light and create darkness, I make weal (shalom) and create woe (ra), I am the LORD, who does all these things.” Just as darkness is the opposite of light, the opposite of peace is unrest or calamity, not necessarily moral evil. This passage describes only how God is the ultimate cause of both what we enjoy and suffer through, but it is God who will deliver us from these sufferings we must endure for our own good.
— Trent HornSilver Asiatic_{May 17, 2022
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Ram:
Your version of God has to be held responsible for everything (Isaiah 45:7)
What if I don't have a version of God?ET_{May 17, 2022
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"But I don’t see what point you are trying to make here." Jholo, @11 you declared "the heart is just a pump." Seemed like a pretty obtuse thing to say. Just making sure that's not all you think the heart is. It's a pretty special organ. Andrewasauber_{May 17, 2022
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ET: Men have to be held responsible for unwanted pregnancies. Your version of God has to be held responsible for everything (Isaiah 45:7)ram_{May 16, 2022
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Learn how to read, Fred. Make your case. What Jerry posted doesn't have anything to do with your asinine question about kidneys.ET_{May 16, 2022
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Apologies, ET, slip of the finger. Try reading Jerry at comment no 5. (Though it seems you managed to work it out)Fred Hickson_{May 16, 2022
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@ Fred. Try making your point. Viola Lee posted comment no 3. Jerry was no 5 and it doesn't pertain to anything you are now spewing. So, I ask again, are you off of your medications, Fred?ET_{May 16, 2022
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@ ET. Try reading Jerry at comment no 3.Fred Hickson_{May 16, 2022
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Wow! This could solve everything!:
If I have a close relative with kidney failure and our tissues match and I donate one of my kidneys so that my relative doesn’t die and is able to live a normal, dyalasis-free life, whose kidney is it?
Are you off of your medications, Fred?ET_{May 16, 2022
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I would think that the laws would be a deterrent, JHolo. Laws that say the men responsible will be fined, imprisoned or castrated. And you bring up another point. It seems that men don't have any reproductive rights.ET_{May 16, 2022
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If I have a close relative with kidney failure and our tissues match and I donate one of my kidneys so that my relative doesn't die and is able to live a normal, dialysis-free life, whose kidney is it? Edit: spelling.Fred Hickson_{May 16, 2022
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Andrew: Well, I hope you recognize they have value to the person who uses them for life. I’m not sure that you do. You seem strangely defensive about it.
Of course they have value to the person who uses them. But I don’t see what point you are trying to make here. My initial comment was simply a clarification to the statement that embryos feel pain.JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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ET@21, I still don’t know what you are talking about. If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy and doesn’t want to identify the father, how are you going to hold him accountable? If she has an abortion without letting the father know, how are you going to hold him accountable?JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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But AGAIN, unless we hold the men accountable for unwanted pregnancies, abortions will always be a problem. JHolo:
Men are legally and financially accountable for any child they are the father of.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said. And if the girl doesn't speak up and say who the father is then he doesn't pay. Men have to be held responsible for unwanted pregnancies.ET_{May 16, 2022
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ET You are right, but that is not what Egnor has done here. He sets up a very debatable statement (“common argument”) which makes his article appear a refutation, in other words, the start-a-fight-to-draw-attention ploy. There is nothing to disparage in the rest of his article, and the debate will go on anyway. Right now, the trimester argument looks like eventually being the only game in town, politically, condensing to absolute ‘no’ at any time versus 1st trimester (however defined in length.)Belfast_{May 16, 2022
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"Value to whom? I find my heart, brain, kidneys, liver, etc. to be of great value to me. My organs may not hold the same value to you as they do to me." Jholo, Well, I hope you recognize they have value to the person who uses them for life. I'm not sure that you do. You seem strangely defensive about it. Andrewasauber_{May 16, 2022
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ET: But AGAIN, unless we hold the men accountable for unwanted pregnancies, abortions will always be a problem.
Men are legally and financially accountable for any child they are the father of. I’m not sure what you are suggesting.JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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ET at 16, Hold men accountable? A woman and a man are both required for pregnancy to occur. The idea that the man could just walk away and it's only the woman's choice, where did that come from? Total Strangers who said sex outside of marriage is OK?relatd_{May 16, 2022
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21 weeks is the earliest a human baby has been born and survived. Egnor is right. Being a human is a process that has a beginning and an end. Science says that life starts at conception. And that life is a human life, ie the beginning. But AGAIN, unless we hold the men accountable for unwanted pregnancies, abortions will always be a problem.ET_{May 16, 2022
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Andrew: Great. But you haven’t really described the value of these things. Would you please?
Value to whom? I find my heart, brain, kidneys, liver, etc. to be of great value to me. My organs may not hold the same value to you as they do to me.JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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"The same as I would put on a working liver, a working spinal cord, working kidneys, and many other things." Jholo, Great. But you haven't really described the value of these things. Would you please? Andrewasauber_{May 16, 2022
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Andrew: What value would you place on a working heart for someone?
The same as I would put on a working liver, a working spinal cord, working kidneys, and many other things.JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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"the heart is just a pump" Jholo, What value would you place on a working heart for someone? Andrewasauber_{May 16, 2022
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Relatd: The heart begins to beat long before that.
True. But, contrary to romantic literature and often used metaphors, the heart is just a pump.JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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The heart begins to beat long before that. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/when-does-a-fetus-have-a-heartbeatrelatd_{May 16, 2022
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SA: It’s the argument that the fetus is not conscious. Even if true (although it is proven that developing babies in the womb feel pain) it would mean that we could kill any living adult who was not conscious, however temporary that might be.
Yes, it is certainly true that mid to late term embryos experience pain, but experts in neurological development agree that the ability to perceive pain begins around the 23rd week. They certainly respond to stimuli, but responding to stimuli and the perception of pain are not the same thing.JHolo_{May 16, 2022
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Another attempt to justify abortion? An embryo is a unique human being.relatd_{May 16, 2022
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It's the argument that the fetus is not conscious. Even if true (although it is proven that developing babies in the womb feel pain) it would mean that we could kill any living adult who was not conscious, however temporary that might be.Silver Asiatic_{May 16, 2022
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What a strange situation. Souls are not biological things. The animist position is this: "a person who believes all natural things, such as plants, animals, rocks, and thunder, have spirits and can influence human events:" That is quite wrong. Everyone reading this began life as an embryo.relatd_{May 16, 2022
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It was explained to me at a secular graduate school by the professor that the fetus is genetically identical to an adult human at conception and during gestation. Obviously different cell count and different stage of development but identical genetically. So we were killing a human being, just one that’s in a different stage of development. Look around and each human you see was once in that exact same stage. Aside: every human is adding cells to its body during its life so cell count or stage of development should not be the issue.jerry_{May 16, 2022
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