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The materialists have been doing a little end zone dance over at the The Circularity of the Design Inference post. They seem to think that Winston Ewert has conceded that Dembski’s CSI argument is circular. Their celebrations are misplaced. Ewert did nothing of the sort. He did NOT say that Dembski’s CSI argument is circular. He said (admittedly in a rather confusing and inelegant way) that some people’s interpretation of the CSI argument is circular.

Ewert is making a very simple point. To make a design inference based on mere probability alone is fallacious. I don’t know what all of the fuss is about. But just in case this is not clear by now, let’s go back to basics. The design inference requires two things: A huge ocean of probability and a very tiny island of specification. If you don’t have both, it does not work.

Perhaps a poker example will illuminate the issue. There are 2,598,956 five-card poker combinations. Only 1 of those combinations corresponds to the specification “royal flush in spades.” The probability of a royal flush in spades on any given hand is 0.000000385. Now let us suppose the “search space” (i.e., the ocean of probability) is “four consecutive hands of poker.” The probability of a series of events is the product of the probability of all of the events. The probability of receiving a royal flush in spades in four consecutive hands is 0.000000385^4 or 0.00000000000000000000000002197 or about 2.197X10^-26.

Here’s the interesting point. The probability of ANY given series of four poker hands is exactly the same, i.e., 2.197X10^-26. So why would every one of us look askance at the series “four royal flushes in spades in a row” even though it has the exact same low probability as every other sequence of four hands?

The answer to this is, of course, the idea behind CSI. Low probability by itself does not establish CSI. The fact that in the enormous probabilistic ocean of four consecutive poker hands the deal landed on a tiny little island of specification (“four royal flushes in spades) is what causes us to suspect design (i.e., cheating).

Ewert writes:

The fact that an event or object is improbable is insufficient to establish that it formed by natural means. That’s why Dembski developed the notion of specified complexity, arguing that in order to reject chance events they must both be complex and specified.

Poker analogy: The fact that a series of four poker hands has a very low probability (i.e., 2.197X10^-26) is insufficient to establish that it was caused by pure chance. That’s why we need a specification as well.

Ewert:

Hence, its not the same thing to say that the evolution of the bacterial flagellum is improbable and that it didn’t happen. If the bacterial flagellum were not specified, it would be perfectly possible to evolve it even thought it is vastly improbable.

Poker analogy: It is not the same thing to say that a series of four hands of poker is improbable and therefore it did not happen by chance. If the four hands were not specified, it would be perfectly possible to deal them by pure chance even though any particular such sequence is vastly improbable.

Ewert:

The notion of specified complexity exists for one purpose: to give force to probability arguments. If we look at Behe’s irreducible complexity, Axe’s work on proteins, or practically any work by any intelligent design proponent, the work seeks to demonstrate that the Darwinian account of evolution is vastly improbable. Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show why that improbability gives us reason to reject Darwinian evolution and accept design.

Poker analogy: Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show us why that improbability (i.e., 2.197X10^-26) gives us reason to reject chance and accept design (i.e., cheating).

In conclusion it seems to me that after all the dust settles we will see that Ewert was merely saying that Miller’s Mendacity (see the UD Glossary) misconstrues the CSI argument. But we already knew that.

Comments
Again- biological specification refers to function. We do not know if there is functionality until we observe it. Orgel's specified complexity wrt biology also refers to functionality. The references in "No Free Lunch" make it clear that the concepts are the same- well maybe Dembski's is updated from Orgel'sJoe
November 17, 2014
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Alicia:
Following some links, I find that Joe Felsenstein, a professor of population genetics has something to say about the relevance of various arguments at Uncommon descent to reality.
We have proven that Joe Felsenstein doesn't even understand the arguments. So what he has to say is irrelevant.Joe
November 17, 2014
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Adapa:
KF when will you quit tut tutting Joe and finally do something about his constant belligerent and unprovoked insults?
When I have posted anything resembling an insult that was unprovoked? Evidence please or admit that you are dishonestJoe
November 17, 2014
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Kairosfocus,
We can all examine the matter and follow the discussion to see how we have a basic observable (that is a commonplace) functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. Orgel & Wicken discussed it in qualitative, observational terms. WmAD sought to develop a metric model, pivoting on a dual to the information content. So it is not just his word, we can work it out....
If Orgel is defining either "complex" or "specified" in a fundamentally different way than Dembski, then no, he didn't just quantify their concept. And to his credit, I don't think Dembski has ever claimed that--I think he was relatively clear that he is substantially transforming what Orgel (at least) was talking about. But here at UD, it seems like the party line is that Orgel and Dembski are using the same concept of "specified complexity." BA claims they're "exactly" the same, although you've been somewhat more circumspect. But Dembski is talking about probability and a priori specification, whereas neither seems to be true of Orgel. Asking why we should think Dembski and Orgel are talking about the same concept of complexity has gotten me insulted, talked down to, and ignored. The question stands. It's not the most important question in the world, but at some point I think we can infer that there isn't any good reason to think the two concepts are the same. My assumption is that at some point, BA assumed they were the same concept based on the same Orgel excerpts we've all read online. (There's nothing wrong with forming an opinion based on such excerpts--I do it, and so do you, gentle reader, especially when the source text isn't readily available.) And although he can't support the position, because he treats conversations like zero-sum competitions, he doesn't want to be seen as reconsidering either. My armchair psychology is worth what you paid for it, maybe less. But it's not a competition. It's just a conversation. If there's some reason to think that Orgel and Dembski are both thinking probabilistically, I'd like to know what it is. Short of an actual explanation, I'm going to assume it's just become one of those shibboleths that can't be questioned without incurring UD's version of hospitality and charity.Learned Hand
November 17, 2014
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Following some links, I find that Joe Felsenstein, a professor of population genetics has something to say about the relevance of various arguments at Uncommon descent to reality.Alicia Renard
November 17, 2014
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kairosfocus:
Maybe you may wish to look at 49 above
Thanks, but 49 just underscores the difference. For example, it says,
This, leading to something that was not merely random, but was not merely repetitive order either.
But in Dembski's concept of specified complexity, it doesn't matter if something is merely repetitive. It can still be complex. Also, you quote Dembski:
Specified complexity, as I develop it, is a subtle notion that incorporates five main ingredients: (1) a probabilistic version of complexity applicable to events; (2) conditionally independent patterns; (3) probabilistic resources, which come in two forms, replicational and specificational; (4) a specificational version of complexity applicable to patterns; and (5) a universal probability bound.
So in order for Orgel's "specified complexity" to be "precisely the same concept" as Dembski's, as Barry claims, it would have to also incorporate those five ingredients. Can you provide any evidence that it does?R0bb
November 17, 2014
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We do not have enough resources to address every error. Hence, you should never infer anything from silence. The plain point that evolution as proposed is not a purely random process and thus attempts to refute the concept that do not address the non-random iterative and successive inputs of variation tested and sorted by selection are wasting effort that might possibly be employed in identifying problems with the theory of evolution. That first step on the path could then be followed by an attempt to generate some kind of design hypothesis. That second step could be followed by suggesting some ways of testing that design hypothesis.Alicia Renard
November 17, 2014
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Joe #58: "LoL! keith s is an insult to humanity." Joe #59: "And another lie." Joe #60: " Obviously you are just gullible and will believe anything that you think supports unguided evolution." Joe #71: " And we have proven that our opponents lie." And even after Gordon admonishes Joe, Joe's non-apology is: "Apologies kairosfocus but sometimes the truth hurts." Obviously UD is not serious about fairly enforcing a requirement for civil conduct on this site. ID opponents get banned for doing nothing more than disagreeing with Barry or Gordon, yet Joes has berated, insulted and called people liars for years, and he is never banned. And please don't give us the crap about Joe being provoked. Many others are provoked and don't respond in this fashion. Barry has already given Joe his last warning. Based on Joe's recent behaviour, if Joe retains comment privileges, Barry is either a liar or a hypocrite.centrestream
November 17, 2014
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Barry Arrington Adapa @ 85. We do not have enough resources to address every error. Hence, you should never infer anything from silence OK, that's a fair enough point from you but what about the rest of the UD posters?Adapa
November 17, 2014
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kairosfocus Joe, language and tone. KF when will you quit tut tutting Joe and finally do something about his constant belligerent and unprovoked insults? Barry already has Joe on probation for the same reason. Either fish or cut bait.Adapa
November 17, 2014
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Adapa @ 85. We do not have enough resources to address every error. Hence, you should never infer anything from silence.Barry Arrington
November 17, 2014
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KF: Sparse blind search is not a good strategy to find isolated islands of function in that space, one dominated utterly by bit strings in no particular order or organisation and of near 50:50 distribution. Let's continue with an example related to reality. How common is functionality in proteins? Of all possible proteins (as there is no upper limit to the length of a protein sequence this is infinite - the longest known sequence in living organisms being titin variants that approach 35,000 residues). Interestingly, there seems to be an observed increase in the length of proteins found in Archaea, bacteria and eukaryotes that, in itself suggests that new proteins do not arrive in living organisms by random assembly. Titin contains two sub-domains, one of 100 residues - the other of 80, each repeated over a 100 times which again suggests an evolutionary path of adding subunits. Of course you can move this back to an issue of abiogenesis and ask where did the first self-sustaining self-replicators come from but this does not appear to be your argument when talking about "islands of function" with regard to protein sequences. To repeat what others have said, the evolutionary process of small variations arising and being sifted by a differential reproduction process is what you need to model if you want to demonstrate that such a process is not viable or adequate to explain life's diversification from life's common ancestor.Alicia Renard
November 17, 2014
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Interesting that there's been no comment on the observation that the OP "dealt a royal straight flush" poker example is fundamentally wrong when used as an analogy for long term iterative feedback processes like evolution. Interesting but not surprising.Adapa
November 17, 2014
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Joe ID uses Orgel’s as we see functionality and say there is a specification. That's a post hoc generated specification. It's perfectly fine for Orgel's use but it fails your ID requirement. Even your own UD source says the specification must be made beforehand.
The second component in the notion of specified complexity is the criterion of specificity. The idea behind specificity is that not only must an event be unlikely (complex), it must also conform to an independently given, detachable pattern. Specification is like drawing a target on a wall and then shooting the arrow. Without the specification criterion, we’d be shooting the arrow and then drawing the target around it after the fact.
You're drawing the target around the arrow, exactly what Dembski says you can't do in his version.Adapa
November 17, 2014
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4 Joe November 16, 2014 at 7:03 pm what are the blind watchmaker research programs?
Bullseye. I guess I should stop waiting for an answer from Daniel King.cantor
November 17, 2014
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Robb: Start at OOL. Then, in Darwin's warm salty pond or the like, show us how the specified complexity of the living cell does not make it highly improbable to arrive at cell based life. Then, having shown us on paper, do it on the ground. While at it, explain why we do not routinely hear of spontaneous generation of novel life in soup cans on shelves, etc. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2014
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Robb: We can all examine the matter and follow the discussion to see how we have a basic observable (that is a commonplace) functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. Orgel & Wicken discussed it in qualitative, observational terms. WmAD sought to develop a metric model, pivoting on a dual to the information content. So it is not just his word, we can work it out. I find it convenient to work in info terms given the empirical access that gives. KF PS: Maybe you may wish to look at 49 above: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/back-to-basics/#comment-529077kairosfocus
November 17, 2014
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F/N: On Islands of function in the AA sequence space, please see the excerpts from Axe and onward his paper: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations/axe-on-specific-barriers-to-macro-level-darwinian-evolution-due-to-protein-formation-and-linked-islands-of-specific-function/ KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2014
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Barry:
For those interested in the the relation between Dembski’s work on CSI and Orgel’s statement, you can see Dembski’s paper that quotes Orgel here.
That quote is one of Dembski's many statements in which he draws some kind of connection between his and Orgel's usage of the term "specified complexity". But even if you interpret Dembski as saying that he and Orgel use the term to indicate "precisely the same concept", as you have claimed, it's not enough to simply ask us to take Dembski's word for it. What you need to show is that when Orgel says "complexity", he actually means "improbability under non-design hypotheses" as Dembski does. I see no evidence of that.R0bb
November 17, 2014
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Barry:
You don’t seem to understand the comment to which you link. Read it again, and if you still don’t understand it I will explain it.
Okay, I've read it again. I would appreciate it if you would correct my misunderstanding.R0bb
November 17, 2014
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Alicia Apologies about the incorrect spelling of your name.Andre
November 17, 2014
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Alecia I can agree to disagree, but it is impossible to be civil when lies are repeated..... How do others do it? How do they continually see past the lies and keep their patience? I would say hat tip to those with the patience of Job!Andre
November 17, 2014
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AR, please go to a tackle shop and inspect an Abu 6500 c3 reel. Look at its exploded view diagram. Ask the sales clerk what would happen if you were to ignore the diagram in re-assembling the reel and jumble up the parts. "Islands of function," whether you wish to accept it or not, describes a well known phenomenon that is also manifest in text, programs and in the molecular machines of life. Selective hyperskepticism is leading you into obtuseness that frustrates seeing patent facts for what they are.KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2014
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AIGuy. I'd like to personally invite you to the "An attempt at computing dFSCI for English language" thread. I promise you you won't be disappointed. peacefifthmonarchyman
November 17, 2014
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Apologies kairosfocus but sometimes the truth hurtsJoe
November 17, 2014
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AR: The informational threshold can be approached in many ways but the simple conservative view taken is for the sol system, of 10^57 atoms for 10^17 s with fast ionic rxn rates as a measure of how fast atomic changes may happen. 10^87 acts and observations of 10^57 atoms in 10^17 s is reasonable, and in fact quite generous. But on assessing the ratio of possible observations of 500 coins observed flipped and read by each atom for that time, we find that the fraction of sampled to possible states for 500 bits is comparable to one straw taken at random from a cubical haystack about as thick as our galaxy (some 100's of LY thick). Sparse blind search is not a good strategy to find isolated islands of function in that space, one dominated utterly by bit strings in no particular order or organisation and of near 50:50 distribution. Push the limit to the observed cosmos and you are looking at about 10^111 observations . . . and to be even more generous take 1,000 bits, The straw to cube ratio in that case would swallow up our observed cosmos of about 90 bn LY across. So, for test purposes, it is reasonable to see that range, 500 - 1,000 bits worth of possibilities as a limit for what blind search at fast atomic action rates could reasonably do. No the limits are not arbitrary and self-serving. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2014
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Alicia Renard, Andre meant exactly what he posted. When we prove people are lying then that is much more than a mere disagreement. And we have proven that our opponents lie.Joe
November 17, 2014
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Joe, language and tone. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2014
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KF: Taking neg logs does not increase our ALGEBRAIC knowledge, but may open our eyes to recognise what we deal with, info beyond a threshold. It may help visualise, and also manipulate large numbers and large variances. It changes not where you decide to claim a thresholdAlicia Renard
November 17, 2014
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Andre: It is impossible to stay courteous and civil when people are deliberate in their lies……. How do others do it? Don't you mean to say "it is impossible to be civil to people I disagree with? Don't you think it is uncivil to automatically brand anyone you disagree with as a "liar"? Don't you think your lack of civility to those you disagree with as "liars" excludes you from civil discourse which is the likely reason you get ignored? (It may also be your inability to comprehend the processes you refer to as "PCD" but that's for others to confirm.)Alicia Renard
November 17, 2014
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