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The materialists have been doing a little end zone dance over at the The Circularity of the Design Inference post. They seem to think that Winston Ewert has conceded that Dembski’s CSI argument is circular. Their celebrations are misplaced. Ewert did nothing of the sort. He did NOT say that Dembski’s CSI argument is circular. He said (admittedly in a rather confusing and inelegant way) that some people’s interpretation of the CSI argument is circular.

Ewert is making a very simple point. To make a design inference based on mere probability alone is fallacious. I don’t know what all of the fuss is about. But just in case this is not clear by now, let’s go back to basics. The design inference requires two things: A huge ocean of probability and a very tiny island of specification. If you don’t have both, it does not work.

Perhaps a poker example will illuminate the issue. There are 2,598,956 five-card poker combinations. Only 1 of those combinations corresponds to the specification “royal flush in spades.” The probability of a royal flush in spades on any given hand is 0.000000385. Now let us suppose the “search space” (i.e., the ocean of probability) is “four consecutive hands of poker.” The probability of a series of events is the product of the probability of all of the events. The probability of receiving a royal flush in spades in four consecutive hands is 0.000000385^4 or 0.00000000000000000000000002197 or about 2.197X10^-26.

Here’s the interesting point. The probability of ANY given series of four poker hands is exactly the same, i.e., 2.197X10^-26. So why would every one of us look askance at the series “four royal flushes in spades in a row” even though it has the exact same low probability as every other sequence of four hands?

The answer to this is, of course, the idea behind CSI. Low probability by itself does not establish CSI. The fact that in the enormous probabilistic ocean of four consecutive poker hands the deal landed on a tiny little island of specification (“four royal flushes in spades) is what causes us to suspect design (i.e., cheating).

Ewert writes:

The fact that an event or object is improbable is insufficient to establish that it formed by natural means. That’s why Dembski developed the notion of specified complexity, arguing that in order to reject chance events they must both be complex and specified.

Poker analogy: The fact that a series of four poker hands has a very low probability (i.e., 2.197X10^-26) is insufficient to establish that it was caused by pure chance. That’s why we need a specification as well.

Ewert:

Hence, its not the same thing to say that the evolution of the bacterial flagellum is improbable and that it didn’t happen. If the bacterial flagellum were not specified, it would be perfectly possible to evolve it even thought it is vastly improbable.

Poker analogy: It is not the same thing to say that a series of four hands of poker is improbable and therefore it did not happen by chance. If the four hands were not specified, it would be perfectly possible to deal them by pure chance even though any particular such sequence is vastly improbable.

Ewert:

The notion of specified complexity exists for one purpose: to give force to probability arguments. If we look at Behe’s irreducible complexity, Axe’s work on proteins, or practically any work by any intelligent design proponent, the work seeks to demonstrate that the Darwinian account of evolution is vastly improbable. Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show why that improbability gives us reason to reject Darwinian evolution and accept design.

Poker analogy: Dembski’s work on specified complexity and design inference works to show us why that improbability (i.e., 2.197X10^-26) gives us reason to reject chance and accept design (i.e., cheating).

In conclusion it seems to me that after all the dust settles we will see that Ewert was merely saying that Miller’s Mendacity (see the UD Glossary) misconstrues the CSI argument. But we already knew that.

Comments
LH:
I’m not all that skeptical that Orgel and Dembski have the same basic definition of “specified.”
Good. It is pretty much the same concept. I am familiar with Dembski stating that crystals do NOT exhibit CSI. Understanding Intelligent Design: Everything You Need to Know in Plain Language, pp. 105-106 (Harvest House, 2008).) I am curious why you think Demski says crystals are complex.Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Learned Hand @ 15:
I am very doubtful that Arrington has read the Orgel paper, or can explain how they could possibly be describing the same concept of CSI given how different their concepts of complexity are.
And the basis of your doubt is? Learned Hand @ 23:
No, I haven’t read it. I’ve only read the same excerpts that are commonly cited, in which Orgel seems to define “complex” in the usual way (as in, comprised of varying and distinguished parts), as opposed to the Dembskian way (as in, extremely improbable).
You haven't read the source material, the book by Orgel, but you know enough about it to ascertain that Barry hasn't read it. How does that work?Mung
November 16, 2014
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Barry Arrington Adapa, you cite NCSE as if it were a science source instead of a political propaganda organ. When you have no argument against the information provided just declare the source to be political propaganda and hand wave it away. Saves time in thinking.Adapa
November 16, 2014
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Barry:
Mung, the fact that Learned Hand calls Orgel’s book a “paper” answers your question, no?
Not really, lol! The chutzpah! I know I'm ignorant, so you must be ignorant! I don't know I'm ignorant, so you must be ignorant! I think you're ignorant, so you must be ignorant! But thanks again for an OP that exposes the weaknesses in the ID argument. ID proponents must read the Orgel paper lest they be accused of having not read the Orgel paper! You haven't read the Orgel paper? Then you have no right to quote Orgel! QED.Mung
November 16, 2014
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keiths: "And in a recent thread, he claimed that CSI can be assessed without a chance hypothesis" You don't seem to understand the comment to which you link. Read it again, and if you still don't understand it I will explain it.Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Adapa, you cite NCSE as if it were a science source instead of a political propaganda organ. I am unimpressed. Do you seriously think "organized" is a synonym for "specified"? NCSE is in full spin mode here.Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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BTW Learned, what do you think Orgel and Davies mean by the word “specified”?
I don't know. I only have the wiki entry on specified complexity to go on (and a few similarly curt excerpts). All I really can tell is that he defines crystals as "specified," but without knowing why exactly it's not a very helpful example. The excerpt I just looked up says that crystals are specified "because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way." But I doubt that "specified" meant "large number of uniformly packed identical parts" to Orgel, since that wouldn't apply to life. I'm not all that skeptical that Orgel and Dembski have the same basic definition of "specified." I don't know if it's true or not, but I don't have any specific reason to think it's false. I do have a reason to think that it's false that he and Orgel are thinking of "complex" in the same way, given Dembski's highly non-standard definition of the term--especially given that he defines "complex" to include regular forms like crystals.Learned Hand
November 16, 2014
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This is from the NCSE
The role of crystalline minerals in the origin of life was proposed by JD Bernal over forty years ago. Bernal, following Aharon Katchalsky, pointed out that the clay montmorillonite’s surface readily bound simple organic molecules (Bernal 1967). Most clays are plate- or lath-shaped micro-crystals made of silicon, oxygen, and aluminum, interspersed with other elements (commonly iron, calcium, or sodium) which can replace the major elements. These substituted metals alter the electric charge on the crystal’s surface, providing locations where organic molecules can attach. The structure of the clay crystal provides stability and organization essential for the origin of life (for example, Wang and Ferris 2005; Hanczyc and others 2003; Saladino and others 2002). Leslie Orgel (1973) coined the now famous term “specified complexity” to distinguish between crystals, which are organized but not complex, and life, which is both organized and complex. He was well aware then of the potential role of crystalline minerals in the origin of life. Twenty-five years later, Orgel demonstrated the thermodynamic favorability of polymer formation on grains of the mineral apatite, or hydroxylcalcium phosphate (see Ferris 2002 for a “reader-friendly” account). Why re-invent the crystal? It's obvious from reading about Orgel's collaborations with Stanley Miller among others that Orgel's "specified complexity" has nothing in common with Dembski's usurping of the term.
Adapa
November 16, 2014
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Mung, No, Arrington hasn't cited anything that Orgel wrote to support his claim, whether paper or book or eldritch papyrus, at least as far as I can remember. That's what I'm asking for, something to support his claim that Orgel and Dembski use the term "complex" in "exactly" the same way. Let's head off a miscommunication: I don't think that Dembski says that he and Orgel and using "complex" in exactly the same way. I think that Barry Arrington makes that claim.Learned Hand
November 16, 2014
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Learned Hand, it wasn't a paper, it was a book. Accusing Barry of not having read the paper when you don't even know where the quote came from just makes you look like an ignorant fool. And basing an argument on the imagined contents of a paper that you haven't even read makes you look even more the ignorant fool.Mung
November 16, 2014
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BTW Learned, what do you think Orgel and Davies mean by the word "specified"?Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Barry Arrington, the cited Dembski language merely says that Orgel used the phrase "specified complexity." Dembski has never, to my knowledge, claimed that Orgel used the term "complexity" in the same way that he himself does. I think you could read the implication into the cited language, but I also think he's careful not to say it outright. You make a much stronger claim: that Orgel “uses the terms complex and specified in exactly the sense Dembski uses the terms.” Neither you nor Kairosfocus have provided any text that supports that very strong claim. Is it in the Orgel document? Can you please share with us where we can find that information? Or, if it's not in the Orgel monograph, why you believe that he uses the term "complex" in "exactly the sense Dembski" does?Learned Hand
November 16, 2014
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Learned Hand, now it's your turn to try reading for comprehension. Read 18 again carefully, and maybe you'll be able to see the relationship Dembski believes Orgel's work bears to his own.Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Well gee "Learned Hand." I searched in vain in that link Barry supplied for a reference to "the Orgel paper" and came up empty. Maybe Barry is just bluffing. Maybe Dembski made it all up as a part of some grant Intelligent Design conspiracy. Maybe you are just confused and grasping at straws. But you've read "the Orgel paper," right? That's why you can be so confidant that Barry hasn't read it?Mung
November 16, 2014
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Mung, No, I haven't read it. I've only read the same excerpts that are commonly cited, in which Orgel seems to define "complex" in the usual way (as in, comprised of varying and distinguished parts), as opposed to the Dembskian way (as in, extremely improbable). I've also asked, repeatedly, why Arrington (and to a lesser extent, KF) claim that Orgel and Dembski are using the same concept, when the commonly-cited excerpts make it clear that they aren't. They don't appear to be able or willing to answer the question, as you can see from Arrington's characteristically snippy but unresponsive comment. I think it's something they assumed to be true once upon a time, and having assumed it, they do not seem to be willing to consider the fact that they might be wrong.Learned Hand
November 16, 2014
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keith, trying reading the excerpt I provided from Dembski's paper again. This time try reading for comprehension and you will answer your own question. After all, Dembski spells out the relation between his work and Orgel's prior work right there in the excerpt. Also, you are a guest on this website. You should make an effort at being polite to your host. Unprovoked insults are bad manners. Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Mung, the fact that Learned Hand calls Orgel's book a "paper" answers your question, no?Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Barry, You can't seriously believe that merely because Dembski quotes Orgel, it means that their concepts of specified complexity are the same. Can you? That would be foolish even by Arringtonian standards.keith s
November 16, 2014
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Learned Hand:
I am very doubtful that Arrington has read the Orgel paper, or can explain how they could possibly be describing the same concept of CSI given how different their concepts of complexity are.
The Orgel paper? So you've read it? And you can provide a link to it so Barry can read it, if he hasn't already? I don't think Barry has anything to fear from someone who criticized him for not having read "the Orgel paper" when the critic hasn't read "the Orgel paper."Mung
November 16, 2014
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For those interested in the the relation between Dembski's work on CSI and Orgel's statement, you can see Dembski's paper that quotes Orgel here. Excerpt:
The term specified complexity is about thirty years old. To my knowledge origin-of-life researcher Leslie Orgel was the first to use it. In his 1973 book The Origins of Life he wrote: “Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity” (189). More recently, Paul Davies (1999, 112) identified specified complexity as the key to resolving the problem of life’s origin: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.” Neither Orgel nor Davies, however, provided a precise analytic account of specified complexity. I provide such an account in The Design Inference (1998b) and its sequel No Free Lunch (2002). In this section I want briefly to outline my work on specified complexity. Orgel and Davies used specified complexity loosely. I’ve formalized it as a statistical criterion for identifying the effects of intelligence
Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Barry Arrington But Joe is not asking for your statement of faith. He is asking for actual evidence. There is none. (shrug) I can't make anyone visit the Thorton Lab site and read the many papers on reconstructing protein histories. Nor can I copy all of that work here. To those unwilling to educate themselves there will stay no evidence. That's their loss.Adapa
November 16, 2014
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Adapa: "Already been done." Your faith is strong. But Joe is not asking for your statement of faith. He is asking for actual evidence. There is none.Barry Arrington
November 16, 2014
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Although you should be warned about how the moderator of this board has responded to someone else who pointed out that Orgel and Dembski are talking about two different concepts.
The moderator made the same claim to me not long ago. I believe I asked for support for the claim at the time; I know I asked kairosfocus several times. (Although, to be fair, kf is more careful than Arrington is; he only says that Orgel's and Dembski's concepts are connected, not that they are the same.) I am very doubtful that Arrington has read the Orgel paper, or can explain how they could possibly be describing the same concept of CSI given how different their concepts of complexity are.Learned Hand
November 16, 2014
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as to Thorton's work: Severe Limits to Darwinian Evolution: - Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The immediate, obvious implication is that the 2009 results render problematic even pretty small changes in structure/function for all proteins — not just the ones he worked on.,,,Thanks to Thornton’s impressive work, we can now see that the limits to Darwinian evolution are more severe than even I had supposed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/severe_limits_to_darwinian_evo.html Wheel of Fortune: New Work by Thornton's Group Supports Time-Asymmetric Dollo's Law - Michael Behe - October 5, 2011 Excerpt: Darwinian selection will fit a protein to its current task as tightly as it can. In the process, it makes it extremely difficult to adapt to a new task or revert to an old task by random mutation plus selection. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/wheel_of_fortune_new_work_by_t051621.html From Thornton's Lab, More Strong Experimental Support for a Limit to Darwinian Evolution - Michael Behe - June 23, 2014 Excerpt: In prior comments on Thornton's work I proposed something I dubbed a "Time-Symmetric Dollo's Law" (TSDL).3, 8 Briefly that means, because natural selection hones a protein to its present job (not to some putative future or past function), it will be very difficult to change a protein's current function to another one by random mutation plus natural selection. But there was an unexamined factor that might have complicated Thornton's work and called the TSDL into question. What if there were a great many potential neutral mutations that could have led to the second protein? The modern protein that occurs in land vertebrates has very particular neutral changes that allowed it to acquire its present function, but perhaps that was an historical accident. Perhaps any of a large number of evolutionary alterations could have done the same job, and the particular changes that occurred historically weren't all that special. That's the question Thornton's group examined in their current paper. Using clever experimental techniques they tested thousands of possible alternative mutations. The bottom line is that none of them could take the place of the actual, historical, neutral mutations. The paper's conclusion is that, of the very large number of paths that random evolution could have taken, at best only extremely rare ones could lead to the functional modern protein. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/more_strong_exp087061.html podcast - Michael Behe: The Limit in the Evolution of Proteins (Thorton's 2014 paper) http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-07-09T16_35_28-07_00bornagain77
November 16, 2014
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Which of the following best describes what the term “design” is intended to mean here?
Joe: Dodge, Fail. KF: Dodge, Fail. You complain when others dodge your questions - why can't you answer mine? Surely you can say which of these statements are entailed by the term "design" and which are not? 1) Not due to chance and/or necessity 2) Due to the actions of an entity or process that may or may not be conscious 3) Due to the actions of a conscious entity 4) Due to an entity that has some of the same mental abilities as humans but not necessarily all of them 5) Due to an entity that has all of the mental abilities of normal human beings, including the ability to learn and use natural language Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
November 16, 2014
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This comment of R0bb's deserves a reposting here:
Winston:
You can certainly have a notion of specified complexity that is observable, like Orgel and Wicken did. But care must be taken not to conflate it with Dembski’s conception.
Thank you. Although you should be warned about how the moderator of this board has responded to someone else who pointed out that Orgel and Dembski are talking about two different concepts. Barry:
Mathgrrl, I will tell you what is ridiculous: Your attempt to convince people that Orgel and Dembski are talking about two different concepts, when that is plainly false. Like the Wizard of Oz you can tell people “don’t look behind that curtain” until you are blue in the face. But I’ve looked behind your curtain, and there is nothing there but a blustering old man. I will not retract an obviously true statement no matter how much you huff. You’ve been found out. Deal with it.
But it’s also worth noting that in a follow-up thread, Barry scoffed when I told him that Dembski’s examples of specified complexity include simple repetitive sequences, plain rectangular monoliths, and narrowband signals. And in a recent thread, he claimed that CSI can be assessed without a chance hypothesis. So the board moderator, who has been “studying the origins issue for 22 years”, doesn’t understand what Dembski means by CSI. Which means that if you want to clean up the CSI mess, you have an uphill battle ahead of you.
keith s
November 16, 2014
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Joe Adapa- Just demonstrate the protein can arise via unguided processes and be done with it. Already been done. See Joe Thornton's work on ancestral protein reconstruction. Much of it is online and available from his lab's web site. Thornton Lab: molecular mechanisms of evolutionAdapa
November 16, 2014
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Adapa- Just demonstrate the protein can arise via unguided processes and be done with it. Oops you can't account for lifeJoe
November 16, 2014
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The OP and the poker example only serve to highlight the category error ID makes when it tries to use the “this protein is too improbable to have formed naturally” argument. Science knows that proteins weren’t formed "as is" in a one-time process like the royal straight flush in the example was dealt in one hand. Rather extant proteins are the result of an iterative process involving feedback that’s been running for over 3.5 billion years. To make the poker analogy relevant you’d have to posit a game of draw poker where each player is allowed to discard, reshuffle the deck and redraw until he is satisfied, up to 3 billion times. With those rules “functionally specified” royal straight flushes would be commonplace. Sorry but you can’t calculate the probability of a result in a long term iterative feedback process like evolution by taking a one time snapshot of the current state. You just can’t. You have to take into account the history and activity of the process.Adapa
November 16, 2014
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RDF, try, Design, VERB: intelligently directed configuration (as a causal process). Designer, NOUN: an entity that creates intelligently directed configurations. Two utterly different foci. KFkairosfocus
November 16, 2014
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