Barbara Forrest: Will The Real Coward Please Stand Up

[...] That said, Shermer made a gallant attempt to discredit the hypothesis of intelligent design. His presentation reminded me of the valiant but ill-fated Pickett’s Charge in the battle of Gettysburg where Confederate soldiers marched a mile in the open field in the face relentless canon and musket fire. In that charge two life-long friends (Armistead and Hancock) found themselves pitted against each other, with Armistead leading his confederates into the blistering fire of Hancock’s canons. Such was the debate last night. Two friends, Bill Dembski and Michael Shermer were pitted against one another, and Shermer heroically fought on the side of a losing cause. I cringed that it was a courageous and honorable Michael Shermer marching into the battlefield instead of Barbara Forrest (see: Barbara Forrest, will the real coward please stand up). [...] “Bill Dembski is world famous” says creationism’s prodigal son Michael Shermer | Uncommon Descent

Interesting suggestion, Russ, Bill-board Diplomacy! If this debate idea is to fly, however, the "coward" label will have to be dropped from any such message. Even if she were actually afraid of a showdown, I do not think this particular tag will entice her towards the debating table. If Dr. Forrest has actually been watching this thread, she may be thinking "they can treat me like a lady first, and then I'll think about going to the OK Corral". apollo230

Can we rent a billboard across from her university on which we very publicly invite her to debate? ;) russ

Dear God look at that CC list. Guts

Late_Model Don't forget to tell Babs that Cerberus sends his love. Douglas Well, what if she receives a feminine toiletry kit, instead? Bill has generously upped my commission to 100% in that case. DaveScot

Late_Model: Barbara Forrest's email address is nospam AT selu DOT edu (substitute "bforrest" for "nospam" sans quotes -- her email address is readily available on the web, so I'm not divulging any confidences). Please email her your offer and report back here what response if any you receive. William Dembski

Personally I shy away from debate with Darwinists now because it creates frustration at best, Apollo230, sometimes you have to fight. tribune7

Dr. Dembski, "Just to be clear about DaveScot’s role in this — he has my full approval to act as an agent in arranging this debate. Also, I’m willing to forgo an honrarium and cover my own costs to make this happen (provided, of course, that Barbara Forrest does the same — if her expenses are covered, so must mine; if she receives an honorarium, so must I)." Well, what if she receives a feminine toiletry kit, instead? Douglas

To Doctor Dembski: Personally I shy away from debate with Darwinists now because it creates frustration at best, and anger at worst when I happen to meet up with pricklies who set up an “I/IT” conversation and treat me like I’m in a lower taxon. Maintaining composure becomes a chore when those of low social IQ take multiple craps in my brain during any extended discourse. Since I do not know how to participate in these exchanges without being consumed by the Dark Side of the Force, refraining from such exercises starts looking like a good idea. Best regards, apollo230 apollo230

I will through this out right now!! I am inviting both Dembski and Forrest to a debate in San Francisco, California. I will pay travel expenses and $1,000.00 honorarium to each. I will get the right to broadcast the entire thing on the internet. late_model

apollo230: No offense taken. William Dembski

PS. I should *not* be commenting about your spiritual affairs (or those of any Darwinist, for that matter) when my interior castle is hardly in order! :) Best regards, apollo230 apollo230

Re#18: Thank you for your response, Doctor! I only intended to give you some friendly advice. However, I will gladly refrain from further comment about your spiritual life. Best regards, apollo230 apollo230

Arnhart: Why didn’t Dembski go to Dover? It wouldn't have mattered who showed up and testified for the ID side. The ONLY thing that would have "won the day" for ID in that trial would have been to have a school board that was not religiously motivated which also understood ID. It is obvious that Judge Jones didn't hear the ID experts testimony. And it was also obvious that the judge was not interested in any finding of facts by the mere fact that he disallowed the publisher of "Of Pandas and People"- the key to the plaintiffs case was that book- to testify to clear up all the plaintiffs' misrepresentations about it. Joseph

"If you step away from this evolution Sturm und , you may not only find peace, but the peace of Christ, and hence you will find the Designer and fulfill your life’s work." Best regards, apollo230 Seems the apostle Paul experienced a fair amount of Sturm und Drang as he reasoned and debated with his opponents throughout the book of Acts. russ

"Speaking of Rosarita Beach and Jesus… there isn’t anything that gets you praying better than waking up naked on Rosarita Beach Sunday morning with a mouthful of sand, an empty bottle of tequila, and no idea which hotel is yours. The first thing you pray for is a fig leaf before you go looking for your car. " Note to self: Stay away from Rosarita Beach if it's a Sunday and Dave Scott is in town. ;) russ

Speaking of Rosarita Beach and Jesus... there isn't anything that gets you praying better than waking up naked on Rosarita Beach Sunday morning with a mouthful of sand, an empty bottle of tequila, and no idea which hotel is yours. The first thing you pray for is a fig leaf before you go looking for your car. Or so I'm told... DaveScot

It's a real shame. We were going to line up the Salk Institute for the venue and get Ann Coulter to hype it. We still can. All Barbie Doll has to do is say the word. My commish would have paid for a weekend for me & my old lady at our favorite La Jolla hotel - La Valencia. I haven't stayed there since I lived 45 minutes north in Irvine 14 years ago. Or even better it'd pay for a suite and a couple lobsters every night for a week south of the border on Rosarita Beach. Even if they are only Pacific lobsters Barbie's still a real party pooper. DaveScot

apollo230: The point is not to spare Barbara or me stress, but to disabuse people that Barbara is misleading. Also, you might leave it between God and me just how much of the peace of Christ I am experiencing -- I frankly don't see you in a position to judge that. And finally, you might want to consider how the theme of warfare and conflict plays out in the Old and New Testaments -- did Christ have the peace of God when he drove the money changers out of the temple? And doesn't Jeremiah remonstrate with those "who say Peace, Peace, but there is no peace"? William Dembski

Sal re BarFo I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you. DaveScot

I have a keen suspicion that exchanging an abundance of words with Barbara Forrest would harvest nothing but personal stress and acrimony, Doctor. This perpetual standoff with the implacable Darwinist opposition is not going to be won with words-in fact, your only winning move may be to stop "playing the game" altogether. If you step away from this evolution Sturm und Drang, you may not only find peace, but the peace of Christ, and hence you will find the Designer and fulfill your life's work. Best regards, apollo230 apollo230

Just to be clear about DaveScot's role in this -- he has my full approval to act as an agent in arranging this debate. Also, I'm willing to forgo an honrarium and cover my own costs to make this happen (provided, of course, that Barbara Forrest does the same -- if her expenses are covered, so must mine; if she receives an honorarium, so must I). William Dembski

Off topic: Here's a word document of Alvin Plantinga reviewing Dawkins' "The God Delusion" http://www.home.no/knodt/ReviewGodDelusionPlantinga.doc russ

“Females avoid conflict. They are afraid of violence. The males, on the other hand, are less averse to strife.” Hmmm, very interesting indeed Russ. I think you have provided an explanation which makes perfect sense: She is backing away from debate to keep the peace, but she (her selfish genes) also insulted Dr. Dembski as a way of bringing her “tribe” together and providing a greater feeling of peace and security among them in a time of crisis. Boy this evolution stuff is fun! shaner74

Larry in #11 Here's the link to Dr. Dembski's explanation: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/archives/1898 russ

Why didn't Dembski go to Dover? Arnhart

I tried to find a possible evolutionary explanation for Dr. Forrest's behavior. Biologist and primatologist Frans de Waal may have provided some clues in this interview about our evolutionary cousins, the bonobos. Tell me if I'm misreading de Waal, but he seems to be saying that it's because "she's a girl". http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/monkeywire/2006-August/000895.html De Waal: Wait a minute. I said that female bonobos keep the peace. The males are better at making peace. SPIEGEL: What do you mean? De Waal: Females avoid conflict. They are afraid of violence. The males, on the other hand, are less averse to strife. But once conflict breaks out, the males are much better at reconciling. In a study done in Finland, children who had quarreled were asked how much longer they intended to be angry at one another. The boys proudly said: "Oh, at least one or two days." The girls said... SPIEGEL: Let's take a guess: "forever?" De Waal: (laughs) Exactly. russ

Err, maybe leave out the word belch... apollo230

Well, Sal, I suppose you could make up with her by saying: "oh Barbara, you belch out such delightful ambrosia that you leave me in convulsive delight!!!" :) apollo230

(RE#5) self correction: whatever pet name that was, that is apollo230

apollo230, You can find it here :-) It may be surprising that I have such negativity toward her, but consider what she tried to perpetrate against 2 distinguished pro-ID professors here. I consider her actions as crossing the line as far as ethics are concerned. She seems a bit too approving of the idea that ID proponents be given less than equal treatment in hiring and promotion decisions at universities. That propensity, by implication extend to students seeking jobs or diplomas. I have serious issues with that, as I consider that highly unethical and promoting the violation of civil rights.... Salvador scordova

On the serious side, though, practically anyone who has engaged in these evolutionary debates for any length of time has said something, somewhere, about the opposition that they later regretted (or should regret). So do not single yourself out, Sal, for any reason, for that pet name was nothing particularly unique considering the nature of this rhetorical jungle. apollo230

Predictions are dangerous, especially when they concern the future, but this one was easy. GilDodgen

Oops, where was that pet name, Sal? :) apollo230

Apollo230, Thank you for the compliment. Unfortunately, as nicely as I have spoken of Eugenie Scott, I have not been so charitable with Barbara Forrest. I'm afraid she would still remember the nick name I gave her here.... Sal scordova

Dr. Padian regards you as a fairly polarizing figure, Dave. I wonder if an overture from Sal Cordova would bring him and Dr. Forrest to change their minds about this debate idea? Best regards, apollo230 apollo230