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Barriers to macroevolution: what the proteins say

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KeithS has been requesting scientific evidence of a genuine barrier to macroevolution. The following is a condensed, non-technical summary of Dr. Douglas Axe’s paper, The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds. Since (i) proteins are a pervasive feature of living organisms, (ii) new proteins and new protein folds have been continually appearing throughout the four-billion-year history of life on Earth, and (iii) at least some macroevolutionary events must have involved the generation of new protein folds, it follows that if Dr. Axe’s argument is correct and neo-Darwinian processes are incapable of hitting upon new functional protein folds, then there are indeed genuine barriers to macroevolution, in at least some cases. The argument put forward by Dr. Axe is robustly quantifiable, and it is fair to say that Dr. Axe carefully considers the many objections that might be put forward against his argument. If there is a hole in his logic, then I defy KeithS to find it.

Finally I would like to thank Dr. Axe for putting his paper online and making it available for public discussion. The headings below are my own; the text is entirely taken from his paper.

Abstract

Four decades ago, several scientists suggested that the impossibility of any evolutionary process sampling anything but a miniscule fraction of the possible protein sequences posed a problem for the evolution of new proteins. This potential problem – the sampling problem – was largely ignored, in part because those who raised it had to rely on guesswork to fill some key gaps in their understanding of proteins. The huge advances since that time call for a careful reassessment of the issue they raised. Focusing specifically on the origin of new protein folds, I argue here that the sampling problem remains. The difficulty stems from the fact that new protein functions, when analyzed at the level of new beneficial phenotypes, typically require multiple new protein folds, which in turn require long stretches of new protein sequence. Two conceivable ways for this not to pose an insurmountable barrier to Darwinian searches exist. One is that protein function might generally be largely indifferent to protein sequence. The other is that relatively simple manipulations of existing genes, such as shuffling of genetic modules, might be able to produce the necessary new folds. I argue that these ideas now stand at odds both with known principles of protein structure and with direct experimental evidence. If this is correct, the sampling problem is here to stay, and we should be looking well outside the Darwinian framework for an adequate explanation of fold origins.

Why the origin of new protein folds is a “search problem”

[T]he origin of protein folds can be framed with complete generality as a search problem. Briefly, because genes encode proteins, any functional problem that can be solved with a suitable protein can be solved with a suitable gene. Therefore any functional challenge that calls for structural innovation may be thought of as posing a search problem where the search space is the set of possible gene sequences and the target is the subset of genes within that space that are suitable for meeting the challenge… The aim here will be to decide whether Darwinian mechanisms (broadly construed) can reasonably be credited with this success.

If we take 300 residues as a typical chain length for functional proteins, then the corresponding set of amino acid sequence possibilities is unimaginably large, having 20^300 (= 10^390) members… Here the point is simply that biological protein sequences are indeed members of astoundingly large sets of sequence possibilities. And by ‘astoundingly large’ we mean much more numerous than any mutation events we might postulate as having produced them. According to one estimate, the maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred within the visible universe, including all particles throughout the time since the Big Bang, is 10^150. Since only a minute fraction of these events had anything to do with producing new protein sequences, we can assert with confidence that there is a vast disparity between the number of distinct protein sequences of normal length that are possible, on the one hand, and the number that might have become actual, on the other. In other words, real events have provided only an exceedingly sparse sampling of the whole set of sequence possibilities.

Axe’s metaphor: Searching for a gemstone in the Sahara Desert

We will refer to this as the problem of sparse sampling, or the sampling problem, with the intent of deciding whether or not it really is a problem for the standard evolutionary model. At the very least it raises the important question of how such sparse sampling would uncover so many highly functional protein sequences. To picture the difficulty, imagine being informed that a valuable gemstone was lost somewhere in the Sahara Desert. Without more specific information, any proposal for finding the missing gem would have to come to terms with the vastness of this desert. If only an infinitesimal fraction of the expanse can feasibly be searched, we would judge the odds of success to be infinitesimally small.

What if there’s more than one gemstone?

Evolutionary searches for functional proteins might seem less hopeless in some respects, though. For one, there is a highly many-to-one mapping of protein sequences onto protein functions. This means that vast numbers of comparably valuable targets (protein sequences that are comparably suitable for any particular function) are there to be found. Therefore, while it is effectively impossible to stumble upon a particular 1-in-10^390 protein sequence by chance, the likelihood of stumbling upon a particular protein function by chance will be m-fold higher, where m represents the multiplicity of sequences capable of performing that function…

Why the search space for a protein has to be very large

On the most basic level, it has become clear that protein chains have to be of a certain length in order to fold into stable three-dimensional structures. This requires several dozen amino acid residues in the simplest structures, with more complex structures requiring much longer chains. In addition to this minimal requirement of stability, most folded protein chains perform their functions in physical association with other folded chains [12]. The complexes formed by these associations may have symmetrical structures made by combining identical proteins or asymmetrical ones made by combining different proteins. In either case the associations involve specific inter-protein contacts with extensive interfaces. The need to stabilize these contacts between proteins therefore adds to their size, over and above the need to stabilize the structures of the individual folded chains…

The ATP synthase provides an opportunity at this point to refine the connection between protein size and the sampling problem. Returning to the lost gemstone metaphor, the gem is a new beneficial function that can be provided by a protein or a set of proteins working together, and the desert is the whole space of sequence possibilities within which successful solutions are to be found. Although some of the component proteins that form the ATP synthase are at the small end of the distribution shown in Figure 1 (see Figure 3 legend), none of these performs a useful function in itself. Rather, the function of ATP production requires the whole suite of protein components acting in a properly assembled complex. Consequently, the desert is most precisely thought of as the space of all DNA sequences long enough to encode that full suite. For our purposes, though, it will suffice to picture the space of protein sequences of a length equaling the combined length of the different protein types used to form the working complex (around 2,000 residues for the ATP synthase; see Figure 3 legend).

Two possible “ways out” for neo-Darwinian evolution: either there are lots of gemstones in the desert, or the gemstones are suitably lined up, making them easy to find if the first one is located

Having shown that the problem of sparse sampling is real – meaning that cellular functions require proteins or suites of proteins that are of necessity far too large for the sequence possibilities to have been sampled appreciably – we now turn to the question of whether it is really a problem for neo-Darwinian evolution. Two possibilities for mitigating the problem need to be considered. One of these has been mentioned already. It is the possibility that the multiplicity of sequences capable of performing the requisite functions, m, might be large enough for working sequences to be found by random searches. The second possibility is that functional protein sequences might bear a relationship to one another that greatly facilitates the search. In the desert metaphor, imagine all the different gems being together in close proximity or perhaps lined up along lines of longitude and latitude. In either of these situations, or in others like them, finding the first gem would greatly facilitate finding the others because of the relationship their positions bear to one another…

Why the first neo-Darwinian solution to the sampling problem won’t work

…[W]e need to quantify a boundary value for m, meaning a value which, if exceeded, would solve the whole sampling problem. To get this we begin by estimating the maximum number of opportunities for spontaneous mutations to produce any species-wide trait, meaning a trait which is fixed in the population through natural selection (selective sweep). Bacterial species are most conducive to this because of their large effective population sizes. So let us assume, generously, that an ancient bacterial population sustained a species consisting of 10^10 individuals [26], passing through 10^4 generations per year. After five billion years, such a species would produce a total of 5×10^23 (=(5×10^9)x(10^4)x(10^10)) cells that happen to avoid the small-scale extinction events that kill most cells irrespective of fitness. These 5×10^23 ‘lucky survivors’ are the cells that are available for spontaneous mutation to accomplish whatever will be accomplished in the species… [A]ny adaptive step that is unlikely to appear in that number of cells is unlikely to have evolved in the entire history of the species.

In real bacterial populations, spontaneous mutations occur in only a small fraction of the lucky survivors (roughly one in 300). As a generous upper limit, we will assume that all lucky survivors happen to receive mutations in portions of the genome that are not constrained by existing functions, making them free to evolve new ones. At most, then, the number of different viable genotypes that could appear within the lucky survivors is equal to their number, which is 5 × 10^23. And again, since many of the genotype differences would not cause distinctly new proteins to be produced, this serves as an upper bound on the number of new protein sequences that a bacterial species may have sampled in search of an adaptive new protein structure.

Let us suppose for a moment, then, that protein sequences that produce new functions by means of new folds are common enough for success to be likely within that number of sampled sequences. Taking a new 300-residue structure as a basis for calculation (I show this to be modest below), we are effectively supposing that the multiplicity factor m introduced in the previous section can be as large as (20^300)/(5×10^23), or 10^366. [Recall that 20^300 is about 10^390 – VJT.] In other words, we are supposing that particular functions requiring a 300-residue structure are realizable through something like 10^366 distinct amino acid sequences. If that were so, what degree of sequence degeneracy would be implied? More specifically, if 1 in 5×10^23 full-length sequences are supposed capable of performing the function in question, then what proportion of the twenty amino acids would have to be suitable on average at any given position? The answer is calculated as the 300th root of 1/(5×10^23), which amounts to about 83%, or 17 of the 20 amino acids. That is, by the current assumption proteins would have to provide the function in question by merely avoiding three or so unacceptable amino acids at each position along their lengths.

No study of real protein functions suggests anything like this degree of indifference to sequence…

The second neo-Darwinian solution: Shortcuts to new folds?

The possibility yet to be examined is that functional protein sequences might bear a relationship to one another that allows spontaneous mutations to discover new functional protein folds much more readily than wholly random sampling would. The simplest way for this to occur would be if all functional sequences, regardless of what their functions are, happen to be much more similar to each other than a pair of random sequences would be. In other words, suppose there were a universal consensus sequence that typified all biological proteins, with functional diversity caused by minor deviations from that consensus. The effect of such a universal correlation between sequence and function would be to concentrate all the useful protein sequences within a tiny region of sequence space, making searches that start in that region much more likely to succeed.

Localized searches of this kind are known to work in some cases… The problem comes when we attempt to generalize this local phenomenon. Although there are definite correlations between the various kinds of functions that proteins perform and the respective fold structures used to perform them, and these structural correlations often imply sequence correlations as well, it is simply not the case that all functional folds or sequences are substantially alike. Consequently, while local searches may explain certain local functional transitions, we are left with the bigger problem of explaining how so many fundamentally new protein structures and functions first appeared.

To get an idea of the scale of this problem, consider that the SCOP classification of protein structures currently has 1,777 different structural categories for protein domains, the basic units of folded protein structure… [N]o model of protein origins can be considered satisfactory without accounting for the origin of this great variety of domain folds.

In fact, although the sampling problem has here been framed in terms of protein chains, it could equally be framed in terms of domains. Since domains are presumed to be the fundamental units of conserved structure in protein evolution [33], the question of whether functional sequences are confined to a small patch of sequence space is best addressed at the domain level. And it turns out that domain sequences are not confined in this way…

It therefore seems inescapable that considerable distances must be traversed through sequence space in order for new protein folds to be found. Consequently, any shortcut to success, if it exists, must work by traversing those distances more effectively rather than by shortening them.

A third neo-Darwinian possibility: proteins are made up of small reusable modules, which a search can easily discover

The only obvious possibility here is that new folds might be assembled by recombining sections of existing folds [40-42]. If modular assembly of this kind works, it would explain how just one or two gene fusion events might produce a new protein that differs substantially from its ‘parents’ in terms of overall sequence and structure. Of course, probabilistic limitations would need to be addressed before this could be deemed a likely explanation (because precise fusion events are much less likely than point mutations), but the first question to ask is whether the assumed modularity is itself plausible.

To examine this further, we begin by considering what this kind of modularity would require. If it is to be of general use for building up new folds, it seems to require that folds be divisible into more or less self-contained structural components that can be recombined in numerous ways, with each combination having a good chance of producing a well-formed composite structure. Two physical criteria would have to be met for this to be true. First, the sequence specificity for forming these components must be internal to the components themselves (making their structures self-contained), and second, the interactions that hold neighboring components together to form composite structures must be generic in the sense of lacking critical dependence on the particulars of the components.

The immediate problem is that the first criterion tends to be met only at the level of a complete fold – a folding domain. Important structural features are certainly discernible at lower levels, the most ubiquitous of these being the regular chain conformations known as the alpha helix and the beta strand (secondary structure being the term for these repetitive patterns in local chain structure). But these only find stable existence in the context of larger fold structures (tertiary structure) that contain them. That is, the smallest unit of protein structure that forms stably and spontaneously is typically a complete globular assembly with multiple, layered elements of secondary structure. Smaller pieces of structure can have some tendency to form on their own, which is important for triggering the overall folding process [43], but the highly co-operative nature of protein folding [44] means that stable structure forms all at once in whole chunks – domains – rather than in small pieces. Consequently, self-contained structural modules only become a reality at the domain level, which makes them unhelpful for explaining new folds at that level…

The binding interfaces by which elements of secondary structure combine to become units of tertiary structure are predominantly sequence dependent, and therefore not generic. This presents a major challenge for the idea of modular assembly of new folds, at least as a general explanation… As we will see next, several studies demonstrate that proteins with substantially different amino acid sequences (roughly 50% amino acid identity or less) fail to show part-for-part structural equivalence even if they are highly similar in terms of overall structure and function. Since the modularity hypothesis assumes a much more demanding sense of structural equivalence (where modules retain their structure even when moved between proteins that differ radically in terms of overall structure and function) the failure of the less demanding sense seems to rule that hypothesis out…

With no discernible shortcut to new protein folds, we conclude that the sampling problem really is a problem for evolutionary accounts of their origins. The final thing to consider is how pervasive this problem is. How often in the history of life would new phenotypes have required new protein folds? Or, narrowing that question, how much structural novelty do metabolic innovations appear to have required in the history of bacteria? Continuing to use protein domains as the basis of analysis, we find that domains tend to be about half the size of complete protein chains (compare Figure 10 to Figure 1), implying that two domains per protein chain is roughly typical. This of course means that the space of sequence possibilities for an average domain, while vast, is nowhere near as vast as the space for an average chain. But as discussed above, the relevant sequence space for evolutionary searches is determined by the combined length of all the new domains needed to produce a new beneficial phenotype…

Summary: the gemstone metaphor revisited

…We have used a picture of gems hidden in a vast desert at various points in our discussion in order to illustrate the challenge. Now that we have estimated the relevant fractions it may be helpful to return to this picture. Imagine that the search for gems is conducted by specifying sample points as mathematically exact geographic coordinate pairs (longitude and latitude). Sampling then consists of determining whether a gemstone rests at any of these specified points. A target the size of a grain of sand amounts to about one part in 10^20 of a search space the size of the Sahara, which is above the feasibility threshold of one part in 5 × 10^23. So under favorable circumstances a Darwinian search would be capable of locating a sand-grain-sized gemstone in a Sahara-sized search space. As mentioned above, the ability to accomplish a search on this scale is clearly of some practical significance.

But as a generator of new protein folds, it turns out to be decidedly insignificant. Extending our desert picture, imagine that the top surface of every grain of sand in the Sahara has a miniature desert of its own resting upon it – one in which the entire Sahara is replicated in minute detail. We may call the sub-microscopic sand in these miniature deserts level-1 sand, referring to the fact that it is one level removed from the real world (where we find level-0 sand). This terminology can be applied to arbitrarily small targets by invoking a succession of levels (along the lines of De Morgan’s memorable recursion of fleas). In terms of this picture, the sampling problem stems from the fact that the targets for locating new protein folds appear to be much smaller than a grain of level-0 sand. For example, the target that must be hit in order to discover one new functional domain fold of typical size is estimated to cover not more than one ten-trillionth of the surface of a single grain of level-1 sand. Under favorable circumstances a Darwinian search will eventually sample the grain of level-0 sand on which the right grain of level-1 sand rests, but even then the odds of sampling that level-1 grain are negligible, to say nothing of the target region on that grain. And the situation rapidly deteriorates when we consider more relevant targets, like beneficial new phenotypes that employ (typically) several new protein structures. In the end, it seems that a search mechanism unable to locate a small patch on a grain of level-14 sand is not apt to provide the explanation of fold origins that we seek.

Clearly, if this conclusion is correct it calls for a serious rethink of how we explain protein origins, and that means a rethink of biological origins as a whole.

————————————————-

FINAL NOTE:

Readers will observe that the foregoing argument made by Dr. Axe has nothing to do with the argument made in his and Dr. Ann Gauger’s subsequent paper, The Evolutionary Accessibility of New Enzyme Functions: A Case Study from the Biotin Pathway. Even if the argument in that paper were invalid, as KeithS claims, the above argument would still stand as a genuine barrier to macroevolution.

In any case, Dr. Gauger has replied to critics of the latter paper, here, here and here. (Dr. McBride’s comments are available here.) I invite readers to draw their own conclusions.

Comments
The censorship at UD is antithetical to the pursuit of truth.
Absolute nonsense. I have been commenting here for over 9 years and I have not seen one idea censored. What I have seen censored is ill behavior and non stop frivolous remarks like this one. Step up and tell us an opinion that has been censored.jerry
November 9, 2014
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bpragmatic:
Someone above said:
Someone whose name must not be spoken?
Man, I do not think I asked “where are the critic?”.
Yes, you did. You asked:
Where are the NDE scientists and pertinent scientific data to refute what must be flawed unsupported assertions presented above?
The overwhelming majority of evolutionary biologists think that ID is a crock, if you haven't noticed. As I wrote above:
Don’t forget that UD is actively hostile to open discussion. Most ID critics get banned quickly, and there have been many bannings just within the last week. So when you ask “Where are the critics?”, the answer is “They’re out there, but your UD President is afraid to let them speak.” It’s pitiful, isn’t it?
bpragmatic:
You demonstrate an attitude of contention and not one of deriving truth.
Truth has a much better chance of prevailing in an open discussion. The censorship at UD is antithetical to the pursuit of truth.keith s
November 8, 2014
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Someone above said: "So when you ask “Where are the critics?”, the answer is “They’re out there, but your UD President is afraid to let them speak.” Man, I do not think I asked "where are the critic?". I was asking "where Is the scientific evidence" or where is the "empirical evidence?" More specifically this is what what asked: "Where are the NDE scientists and pertinent scientific data to refute what must be flawed unsupported assertions presented above?" why do you want to misrepresent what was really asked? You must have an agenda. And you must believe you are in a battle of a philosophically driven agenda at that. Otherwise you would at least try and answer the honest question with relevant answers. You demonstrate an attitude of contention and not one of deriving truth.bpragmatic
November 8, 2014
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“KeithS has been requesting scientific evidence of a genuine barrier to macroevolution. ”
Sorry guys. You should know better than to reference a creationist paper. Creationist papers don't count. Next? Sure enough. This is exactly the answer pragmatic gave! Surpise, surprise, surprise!tjguy
November 8, 2014
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Hi Box, I am wondering what the computer algorithm looks like for the function detect_irony.Mung
November 8, 2014
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Mung, Surely you understand why Keiths cannot be allowed back in. You must have noticed that his ideas are simply to cogent, valid and convincing. IOW letting Keith back in will spell finish for the entire ID-movement.Box
November 8, 2014
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Perhaps keiths can explain how protein folds fit into a nice objective nested hierarchy that could only have come about by unguided evolution. Hoping he doesn't get banned before he has the chance.Mung
November 8, 2014
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keiths:
UD is actively hostile to open discussion.
Is that why you so assiduously avoid the open discussion of your ideas here at UD? I beg the admins and moderators. Stop censoring the posts by keiths! Allow him to openly discuss his ideas.Mung
November 8, 2014
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Hasn't keiths argued that there is only one single objective nested hierarchy of protein evolution that can be produced by unguided evolution? And that hierarchy is? And the evidence is?Mung
November 8, 2014
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I’m likely to be banned when the discussion of my argument tapers off.
Why don't you point to all the pertinent things said by those who have been banned. I certainly haven't read all the comments but those that I did were at best childish or irrelevant. It is rare that an anti-ID person makes a relevant comment but there are some. Point out where those who have been banned did. But do so in an objective adult way. Maybe this should be on another thread since this one is about the origin of proteins.jerry
November 8, 2014
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Surely, there is empirical evidence to clearly refute what everyone knows is “creationist” tripe.
There has to be evidence in the various genomes that will support or falsify the thesis which Douglas Axe presents. When that is verified or rejected, the debate will probably be over. It should happen in the next 20 years.
The following is a condensed, non-technical summary of Dr. Douglas Axe’s paper,
I think we need a more layman's version of all this. I understand the gist of it but many of the specifics are a little unclear.jerry
November 8, 2014
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'Surely, there is empirical evidence to clearly refute what everyone knows is “creationist” tripe.' - bpragmatic (i.e. don't let discursive thought get in the way) Well, why don't you adduce it, bozo? Duh...Axel
November 8, 2014
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'Should I remind him that a non existing, never observed, never logically supported path is the best “barrier” we can imagine in empirical science?' Hilarious, GP!Axel
November 8, 2014
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keith s: "When that happens, everyone can find me at The Skeptical Zone." Thank you for the information. I have no reasons to worry, then! :)gpuccio
November 8, 2014
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KeithS, I only have a few minutes, but I'd like to say that you are welcome to post scientific criticisms of Dr. Axe's argument on this thread, if you have any. Bornagain77 and Kairosfocus, Thank you both for your input, for your comments on my post and for the helpful links. Got to go now.vjtorley
November 8, 2014
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KF The link you posted at 16 is in Spanish. Thanks. :)Dionisio
November 8, 2014
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One of keith's (and other darwinist's) habits is shifting the burden. Although the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" make it sound as if one is a short-form version of the other, Darwinists don't get to simply assume this and demand that anyone who doubts it prove there is a "barrier" between the two. That's not the IDist's burden to carry in the first place. It is the Darwinists burden to provide compelling evidence in favor of their assertion that unguided "microevolution" can actually, plausibly accumulate into novel, functional macroevolutionary features.William J Murray
November 8, 2014
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although the 'brick wall' inability of proteins to originate, or to transform into different proteins of a new function, that Dr. Torley has illustrated is certainly a very tight constraint at the molecular level for neo-Darwinian processes to transform one organism into another organism, there is another tight constraint on the unlimited plasticity that is presupposed/imagined for neo-Darwinian processes.,,, This tight constraint one has to do with 'morphological form' of a body plan which, as I briefly touched on in post 6, is found not to be reducible to the 'protein parts' of a body plan. ,,,At the body plan, i.e. morphological/form, level we find another tight constraint for the unlimited plasticity envisioned by Darwinists. A simple way of illustrating these ‘morphological’ constraints for the plasticity of basic body plans/forms is by envisioning what would happen if you were to have a series of mutations which enlarged, say, a leg bone of a animal. If a corresponding series of mutations did not happen for the muscles, blood vessels , nerves, skin, and etc.. etc.., of the leg,,, as well as for the other legs, the animal would soon lose its symmetry. Here are a few articles which elucidate this principle,,,
“The real number of variations is lesser than expected,,. There are no blue-eyed Drosophila, no viviparous birds or turtles, no hexapod mammals, etc. Such observations provoke non-Darwinian evolutionary concepts. Darwin tried rather unsuccessfully to solve the problem of the contradictions between his model of random variability and the existence of constraints. He tried to hide this complication citing abundant facts on other phenomena. The authors of the modern versions of Darwinism followed this strategy, allowing the question to persist. …However, he was forced to admit some cases where creating anything humans may wish for was impossible. For example, when the English farmers decided to get cows with thick hams, they soon abandoned this attempt since they perished too frequently during delivery. Evidently such cases provoked an idea on the limitations to variability… [If you have the time, read all of the following paper, which concludes] The problem of the constraints on variation was not solved neither within the framework of the proper Darwin’s theory, nor within the framework of modern Darwinism.” (IGOR POPOV, THE PROBLEM OF CONSTRAINTS ON VARIATION, FROM DARWIN TO THE PRESENT, 2009, http://www.ludusvitalis.org/textos/32/32-11_popov.pdf K´necting The Dots: Modeling Functional Integration In Biological Systems – June 11, 2010 Excerpt: “If an engineer modifies the length of the piston rods in an internal combustion engine, but does not modify the crankshaft accordingly, the engine won’t start. Similarly, processes of (embryonic) development are so tightly integrated temporally and spatially that one change early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream” (1) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/k%C2%B4necting-the-dots-modeling-functional-integration-in-biological-systems/
Newton himself considered this ‘symmetry argument’ for body plans/forms to be a devastating against atheistic arguments,,,
“Can it be by accident that all birds, beasts, and men have their right side and left side alike shaped, (except in their bowels,) and just two eyes, and no more, on either side of the face; and just two ears on either side of the head, and a nose with two holes; and either two fore- legs, or two wings, or two arms on the shoulders, and two legs on the hips, and no more? Whence arises this uniformity in all their outward shapes but from the counsel and contrivances of an Author? Whence is it that the eyes of all sorts of living creatures are transparent to the very bottom, and the only transparent members in the body, having on the outside a hard transparent skin, and within transparent humours, with a crystalline lens in the middle, and a pupil before the lens, all of them so finely shaped and fitted for vision, that no artist can mend them? Did blind chance know that there was light, and what was its refraction, and fit the eyes of all creatures, after the most curious manner, to make use of it? These, and suchlike considerations, always have, and ever will prevail with mankind, to believe that there is a Being who made all things, and has all things in his power, and who is therefore to be feared.” (Sir Isaac Newton, A Short Scheme of the True Religion) Sir Isaac Newton – Of Atheism – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAMCgWV3PVI Da Vinci Vitruve Luc Viatour – interactive image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Da_Vinci_Vitruve_Luc_Viatour.jpg
supplemental notes: mutations that could effect body plan morphogenesis, i.e. generate new forms of body plans, are found to be ‘always catastrophically bad’
A Listener’s Guide to the Meyer-Marshall Debate: Focus on the Origin of Information Question -Casey Luskin – December 4, 2013 Excerpt: “There is always an observable consequence if a dGRN (developmental gene regulatory network) subcircuit is interrupted. Since these consequences are always catastrophically bad, flexibility is minimal, and since the subcircuits are all interconnected, the whole network partakes of the quality that there is only one way for things to work. And indeed the embryos of each species develop in only one way.” - Eric Davidson http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/12/a_listeners_gui079811.html Darwin or Design? – Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church – Nov. 2012 – ontogenetic depth (excellent update) – video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change — that is, to evolve — any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/
bornagain77
November 8, 2014
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Lesia @14 thank you, it is nice to know.bornagain77
November 8, 2014
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PS: Newman's wider discussion raises various issues: http://www.desdeelexilio.com/2010/06/01/biologia-evolutiva-del-desarrollo-entrevista-a-stuart-a-newman/kairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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F/N: As it seems lost in the onward comments, on the focal topic, I clip 4 above: __________ >> Axe’s argument is a stiff challenge to those who would dismiss the relevance of islands of function in v large config spaces with only v sparse search possible. I only note that a more realistic estimate of number of atom-level events would pivot on something about 10^30 times slower than the Planck time sometimes rounded to 10^-45 s but actually like 4 * 10^-44 s, ie a range to 10^-43 s. Namely, fast chem rxn scale events. With 10^80 atoms in the observed cosmos, 10^14 events/s and 10^17 s on a typical timeline, we are looking at more like 10^111 events or thereabouts. 500 bits have a config space of 3.27*10^150 possibilities and 1,000 bits, 1.07*10^301. Such numbers — and dismissals on “big numbers, harrumph” fail — pose sobering search challenges. Where, as any base may succeed any other and as any AA may succeed any other, there really is such a large space to search. Especially at OOL but also to source the cell types, tissues, organs and systems to form a new body plan. Genome sizes for that run like 10 – 100+ mn bases. I repeat, in the teeth of current caricatures — the only known source of the requisite FSCO/I is design. With, the design inference filter approach being perfectly willing to accept false negatives by assigning the defaults to mechanical necessity and chance contingency, through imposing a stiff hurdle to infer design. The payoff is, when design is inferred, the inference is strong. >> __________ BA77 in 6 above raises as well an interesting point on proteins with no intrinsic shape, which Wells suggests may be up to 1/3 in cases. That brings up chaperoned folding and prions as misfolded proteins. Let's clip BA: ____________ BA77: >> The Gene Myth, Part II – August 2010 Excerpt: “It was long believed that a protein molecule’s three-dimensional shape, on which its function depends, is uniquely determined by its amino acid sequence. But we now know that this is not always true – the rate at which a protein is synthesized, which depends on factors internal and external to the cell, affects the order in which its different portions fold. So even with the same sequence a given protein can have different shapes and functions. Furthermore, many proteins have no intrinsic shape, (intrinsically disoredered proteins), taking on different roles in different molecular contexts. So even though genes specify protein sequences they have only a tenuous (very weak or slight) influence over their functions. ,,,,So, to reiterate, the genes do not uniquely determine what is in the cell, but what is in the cell determines how the genes get used. Only if the pie were to rise up, take hold of the recipe book and rewrite the instructions for its own production, would this popular analogy for the role of genes be pertinent. Stuart A. Newman, Ph.D. – Professor of Cell Biology and Anatomy http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/08/gene-myth-part-ii.html >> _____________ VJT has put a very serious point on the table that is relevant to the islands of function and what Axe aptly terms the sparse search challenge issues. Let us see if that will be squarely faced. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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bornagain77 @6, why, no, you're not boring anyone, your comments are always interesting to read (even if it's the same thing i've read in some other thread - honestly, no irony or sarcasm intended). You're donig great job bringing all that interesting information to us and repetition only helps comprehend it better. Besides, if Darwinians patiently repeat their nonsense, then it in no way should be bad to post something interesting few times... :)Lesia
November 8, 2014
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KS, why the insistent misreperesentation and well-poisoning, as you know or should full well know, UD is open to CIVIL discussion but not to trolling and abusive Internet vandalism . . . a known, habitual problem for far too many objectors to design thought. And, for excellent reason there is no such thing as a right to defamation under -- false -- colours of freedom of expression. Where, patently, drumbeat repetition of such a false accusation, as you and others have been doing for years in the teeth of repeated cogent correction, is defamatory and disrespectful to duties of care to truth and fairness. I will just note here that your current, ongoing performance on suggested arguments against design theory show serious problems with insistent strawman caricaturing and circular arguments lacking good reference to empirical grounding of blind watchmaker thesis claims regarding OOL and origin of body plans. I hardly need to mention that the denial of the obvious and widespread reality of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information backed up by the pretence that relevant info metrics do not exist or that the quantity of info is not calculable or has not been calculated in the teeth of examples starting with PC file sizes and going on from there, does not commend you and others as arguing in good faith and with regard to truth. I think you need to take serious stock. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2014
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Keith S, that's the longest non-answer I've read in a long time.RexTugwell
November 8, 2014
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Me me me....... Keith your arguments have been refuted, TSZ is filled with the same people as you...... logically dysfunctional.Andre
November 7, 2014
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bpragmatic, Don't forget that UD is actively hostile to open discussion. Most ID critics get banned quickly, and there have been many bannings just within the last week. So when you ask "Where are the critics?", the answer is "They're out there, but your UD President is afraid to let them speak." It's pitiful, isn't it? If you're looking for open discussion, I highly recommend The Skeptical Zone, where open discussion is encouraged and commenters are not censored or banned (except for one sorry example: your own Joe G). One caveat: if you go there, you're likely to discover that most of the "clowns" are smarter and better educated than you are, and that they are very good at refuting ID/creationist nonsense. P.S. I'm usually banned quickly at UD, but I seem to be in a sweet spot at the moment. My 'bomb' argument is a topic in at least seven threads, and it would look especially ridiculous if UD banned me right now. (It looks ridiculous enough that they've banned the others, but perhaps Barry thought it was worth the tradeoff.) I'm likely to be banned when the discussion of my argument tapers off. When that happens, everyone can find me at The Skeptical Zone.keith s
November 7, 2014
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So...Where are the NDE scientists and pertinent scientific data to refute what must be flawed unsupported assertions presented above? Or, forget the NDE "scientists". Let the usual philosophical "scientifically" uneducated hacks blow the usual rhetoric for obfuscation to substitute as legitimate challenges to serious questions. Surely, there is empirical evidence to clearly refute what everyone knows is "creationist" tripe. Yeah, that is it. If it were not for those stupid creationist's and their blind adherence to the belief of the "sky fairy", then the NDE conjecture would surely be completely and unabashedly vindicated without any reservation as the truth that has been clearly established by "empirical science". Ha Ha! What a bunch of clowns.bpragmatic
November 7, 2014
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Haven't had time to read OP thoroughly but this is all testable with current technology. New proteins will leave evidence of formation even if it happened millions of years ago. As soon as genome sequences become very cheap they will be compared across species and if there are alleles coding for functional proteins/folds in one species but no indication of it in another species then it will say something very different than if there are traces of the allele in related species who supposedly have a common ancestor. All coming in about 15-20 years. Too expensive today even though technology is available but that will change.jerry
November 7, 2014
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Also of interest to this topic of context dependency is the fact that the strategy of using the 'top down' approach of taking context into consideration provides a much more fruitful hueristic for investigating the complexities of molecular biology than the 'bottom up' neo-Darwinian approach provides.
How the Burgeoning Field of Systems Biology Supports Intelligent Design - July 2014 Excerpt: Snoke lists various features in biology that have been found to function like goal-directed, top-down engineered systems: *"Negative feedback for stable operation." *"Frequency filtering" for extracting a signal from a noisy system. *Control and signaling to induce a response. *"Information storage" where information is stored for later use. In fact, Snoke observes: "This paradigm [of systems biology] is advancing the view that biology is essentially an information science with information operating on multiple hierarchical levels and in complex networks [13]. " *"Timing and synchronization," where organisms maintain clocks to ensure that different processes and events happen in the right order. *"Addressing," where signaling molecules are tagged with an address to help them arrive at their intended target. *"Hierarchies of function," where organisms maintain clocks to ensure that cellular processes and events happen at the right times and in the right order. *"Redundancy," as organisms contain backup systems or "fail-safes" if primary essential systems fail. *"Adaptation," where organisms are pre-engineered to be able to undergo small-scale adaptations to their environments. As Snoke explains, "These systems use randomization controlled by supersystems, just as the immune system uses randomization in a very controlled way," and "Only part of the system is allowed to vary randomly, while the rest is highly conserved.",,, Snoke observes that systems biology assumes that biological features are optimized, meaning, in part, that "just about everything in the cell does indeed have a role, i.e., that there is very little 'junk.'" He explains, "Some systems biologists go further than just assuming that every little thing has a purpose. Some argue that each item is fulfilling its purpose as well as is physically possible," and quotes additional authorities who assume that biological systems are optimized.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/when_biologists087871.html "It has become clear in the past ten years that the concept of design is not merely an add-on meta-description of biological systems, of no scientific consequence, but is in fact a driver of science. A whole cohort of young scientists is being trained to “think like engineers” when looking at biological systems, using terms explicitly related to engineering design concepts: design, purpose, optimal tradeoffs for multiple goals, information, control, decision making, etc. This approach is widely seen as a successful, predictive, quantitative theory of biology." David Snoke*, Systems Biology as a Research Program for Intelligent Design - 2014 http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/viewArticle/BIO-C.2014.3 podcast: "David Snoke: Systems Biology and Intelligent Design, pt. 1" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-08-11T17_19_09-07_00 podcast: David Snoke: Systems Biology and Intelligent Design, pt. 2 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-08-13T16_30_01-07_00
Whereas on the other hand, "Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology",,,
"Evolutionary theory contributes little to experimental biology" - Philip Skell Excerpt: "Certainly, my own research with antibiotics during World War II received no guidance from insights provided by Darwinian evolution. Nor did Alexander Fleming's discovery of bacterial inhibition by penicillin. I recently asked more than 70 eminent researchers if they would have done their work differently if they had thought Darwin's theory was wrong. The responses were all the same: No.,,, ,,,Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology." Philip S. Skell - (the late) Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences. http://www.discovery.org/a/2816 "In fact, over the last 100 years, almost all of biology has proceeded independent of evolution, except evolutionary biology itself. Molecular biology, biochemistry, and physiology, have not taken evolution into account at all." Marc Kirschner, Boston Globe, Oct. 23, 2005 "While the great majority of biologists would probably agree with Theodosius Dobzhansky’s dictum that “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution”, most can conduct their work quite happily without particular reference to evolutionary ideas. Evolution would appear to be the indispensable unifying idea and, at the same time, a highly superflous one.” A.S. Wilkins, editor of the journal BioEssays, Introduction to "Evolutionary Processes" - (2000).
bornagain77
November 7, 2014
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To further hightlight the insurmountable problem that context dependency (i.e. 'form') places on 'bottom up' neo-Darwinian explanations for proteins, it is imporatant to note that many proteins, called intrinsically disordered proteins, have no intrinsic shape. taking on different roles in different molecular contexts.
The Gene Myth, Part II - August 2010 Excerpt: “It was long believed that a protein molecule’s three-dimensional shape, on which its function depends, is uniquely determined by its amino acid sequence. But we now know that this is not always true – the rate at which a protein is synthesized, which depends on factors internal and external to the cell, affects the order in which its different portions fold. So even with the same sequence a given protein can have different shapes and functions. Furthermore, many proteins have no intrinsic shape, (intrinsically disoredered proteins), taking on different roles in different molecular contexts. So even though genes specify protein sequences they have only a tenuous (very weak or slight) influence over their functions. ,,,,So, to reiterate, the genes do not uniquely determine what is in the cell, but what is in the cell determines how the genes get used. Only if the pie were to rise up, take hold of the recipe book and rewrite the instructions for its own production, would this popular analogy for the role of genes be pertinent. Stuart A. Newman, Ph.D. – Professor of Cell Biology and Anatomy http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/08/gene-myth-part-ii.html
Jonathan Wells notes that about 1/3 of the proteins in our body could be 'Intrinsically Disordered Proteins' (IDPs) which take on different roles in different molecular contexts
podcast - Dr. Jonathan Wells: Biology’s Quiet Revolution - September 17, 2014 "We are talking about 1/3 of the proteins in our body, (could be Intrinsically Disordered Proteins)" - Jonathan Wells http://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/idtf/2014/09/dr-jonathan-wells-biologys-quiet-revolution/
Moreover, many proteins are found to be multifunctional, taking on more than one one role/function depending on what context they are in. In fact a protein can have two completely opposite functions depending on what context it is in,,,,
Human Genes: Alternative Splicing (For Proteins) Far More Common Than Thought: Excerpt: two different forms of the same protein, known as isoforms, can have different, even completely opposite functions. For example, one protein may activate cell death pathways while its close relative promotes cell survival. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081102134623.htm Explaining how a protein can perform multiple roles - Cell Biology - December 18, 2009 Excerpt: It’s been known for more than a decade that some cell proteins can carry out multiple functions. For example, it was discovered in 1999 that the protein TyrRS (explained shortly) participated not only in the building of enzymes, but also could function to stimulate the growth of blood vessels. Discovering that the same protein could perform very different roles opened one of the great new chapters in molecular biology. http://scitechstory.com/2009/12/18/explaining-how-a-protein-can-perform-multiple-roles/ Genes Code For Many Layers of Information - They May Have Just Discovered Another - Cornelius Hunter - January 21, 2013 Excerpt: “protein multifunctionality is more the rule than the exception.” In fact, “Perhaps all proteins perform many different functions by employing as many different mechanisms." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/01/genes-code-for-many-layers-of.html http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/7/2022.full
At the risk of boring people with my repeated citation of Talbott, In my honest opinion Stephen Talbott, in this following article, does a par excellence job of illustrating just how devasting the problem of context dependency is to neo-Darwinian explanations for how the billion trillion protein molecules of a human body organize into a cohesive whole,,,
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
bornagain77
November 7, 2014
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