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BarryA Responds to DaveScot

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In Bass Ackwards Darwinism (below) my friend DaveScott writes:

 “Good people do good things.  Evil people do evil things.  Knowledge (like Darwinian evolution and the recipe for dynamite) is inanimate and can be employed by good people for good things and evil people for evil things.”

The issue is not whether “good” people do good things.  Of course they do.  That’s why we call them “good.”  The issue is not whether “evil” people do evil things.  Again, of course they do.  That’s why we call them “evil.”  The issue is what do we mean when we say “good” and “evil.”  From the answer to that question everything else about our ethics follows.

Some people (mainly theists of various stripes) say “good” means that which conforms to a moral standard that transcends place, time, opinion, personality, social constructs and everything else, and “evil” means that which does not conform to that transcendent standard.  I will call these people transcendent standard advocates or TSA’s for short.

Other people say no such transcendent standard exists.  I will call these people materialists. 

Now here is the crux of the matter.  TSAs may be wrong.  There may not be a transcendant moral standard after all, and the appearance of such a standard (what C.S. Lewis calls the “Tao” in the Abolition of Man) may be an illusion.  But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists.  All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard.  We can argue about the exact parameters of the standard.  There will be gray areas.  But to say that some areas are gray is very different from saying everything is gray. 

On the other hand, after centuries of striving materialists have failed to provide a rational account for morality.  Indeed, thoughtful and courageous materialists (I’m thinking of Frederic Nietzsche and Will Provine) have argued that the premises of materialism absolutely preclude a conclusion that ethics or morality have any firm foundation.

Turning back to DaveScott’s post, he says that he does “good” because he intuitively understands and abides by the golden rule.  In other words, Dave bases his morality on his intuition.   

Here is the problem with this formulation in classical terms:  What is the Good?  Dave and the TSAs agree that the Good is that which is desirable.  So far so good (so to speak).  But the more important question is “what is the desirable?”  Dave believes the desirable is that which he actually desires based on his intuition about the golden rule.  TSAs believe the desirable is that which Dave OUGHT to desire.   If, as is the case with Dave, what is actually desired corresponds with what ought to be desired, there is no problem.

The problem for Dave’s philosophy is what happens when someone has a disordered desire.  What if this person (let’s call him Bob) desires to have sex with little children.  Dave will say to him “I have a strong intuition that sex with little children is profoundly wrong.”  Bob will reply, “Why should I care what your intuition tells you?  If I can get away with an activity that gives me pleasure, why should I restrain myself?  Surely you are not suggesting your intuition, i..e, your opinion, is in any way binding on me.”

Dave might reply, “But Bob, it is plain that you ought not have sex with little children.”  Now, if Dave means by “ought” that he has a strong intuition that sex with little children is wrong because it violates the golden rule, he has done no more than repeat himself using different terms.  He has not answered Bob’s objection.  On the other hand, if Dave means by “ought” that sex with little children breaks an obvious moral standard that transcends his and Bob’s opinion, he has not acted logically given his premise that no such standard exists.

At the end of the day, Dave can appeal to a standard that transcends his intuition or he can appeal to his intuition.  If he does the former, he has implicitly admitted the TSA premise.  If he does the latter, he has given Bob no rational reason for refraining from his activity.  Dave has only said, “I do not agree with it.”

What does this have to do with Darwin?  Darwin’s theory does not compel belief in materialism any more than ID compels a belief in God.  But many people believed (especially in late 19th century Europe and North America) that Darwin’s theory was evidence of the triumph of materialist science over the superstition of religion.  This had a profound impact on our social institutions. 

In most of the recent posts this impact has been explored in the context of the holocaust.  I will not add to that debate.  Instead, I will give an example from my own field of the law.   As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.   In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning.  Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.”

With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States.  “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings.  In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place.  The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences.  At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built.

Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality?  This is where the influence of Darwin comes in.  It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical — I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. I n Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”

“The Origin of Species” was published in 1859.  By 1897, when Holmes wrote “The Path of the Law,” Darwinism had had become an unchallengeable scientific orthodoxy accepted as a matter of course by practically all intellectuals. Holmes thought he had no choice but to believe Darwinism and to accept uncritically the philosophical materialism that most people of this time believed followed inexorably from Darwin’s ideas, and his great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of materialism.

Once they were unleashed from any duty to actually apply objective “rules of law,”  judges soon found they could impose their political views on the rest of us under the guise of interpreting the United States Constitution.  The federal judiciary’s long march through our laws, traditions and institutions began slowly in the 1930’ss but rapidly gathered momentum until, in 1973 in the most stunning example of judicial willfulness in our nation’s history, the Supreme Court invalidated the abortion laws of all 50 states.

So you see legal realism was built step by step, precept by precept, upon a foundation of philosophical materialism that in turn rests upon the triumph of Darwin for its acceptance. And upon this foundation was built a superstructure of judicial willfulness that resulted ultimately in Roe v. Wade.  Each link in the causal chain is plain to see for anyone who takes the time to look.

Obviously, I take for granted that abortion — the taking of an innocent human life — is immoral.  In the discussion thread I will not debate this topic, as it is beyond the scope of UD.  I will just say this:  If you believe an unborn baby is not human you are ignorant.  If you believe that taking that baby’s life is not immoral, you are deeply confused morally.

Comments
H'mm: Checking out on putting up AVG 8.0 I see there is a basic conceptual challenge with the idea of self-evident truth. Truths that we see are necessarily so, upon inspecting and properly understanding what is claimed; on pain of self referential absurdity. One may deny or dismiss, but only to thus expose oneself as utterly and blatantly confused. Try the claim I suggested, following Josiah Royce: error exists. Try to deny it, and see where it lands you -- it is undeniably true and bound up in the concepts of truth, reference and error as failure of said reference. Once we have an experiential basis to have a functioning consciousness and mind so we understand truth and error, we see that this proposition is so, is undeniably so [on pain of absurdity], is thus necessarily so, and is not provable by reference to other propositions. (Other propositions and arguments rely upon it, usually implicitly!) By contrast, that any particular individual may be wise or foolish in any given situation is a matter to be shown by testing and is a claim that is not necessarily so on pain of obvious absurdity on attempted denial. Again, at the next level, as Mortimer Adler aptly observed on "little errors in the beginning":
In addition to merely verbal statements which, as tautologies, are uninstructive and need no support beyond the rules of language, and in addition to instructive statements which need support and certification, either from experience or by reasoning, there is a third class of statements which are non-tautological or instructive, on the one hand, and are also indemonstrable or self-evidently true, on the other. These are the statements that Euclid called "common notions," that Aristotle called "axioms" or "first principles," and that mediaeval thinkers called "propositions per se nota." One example will suffice to make this clear -- the axiom or selfevident truth that a finite whole is greater than any of its parts. This proposition states our understanding of the relation between a finite whole and its parts. It is not a statement about the word "whole" or the word "part" but rather about our understanding of wholes and parts and their relation. All of the operative terms in the proposition are indefinable. We cannot express our understanding of a whole without reference to our understanding of its parts and our understanding that it is greater than any of its parts. We cannot express our understanding of parts without reference to our understanding of wholes and our understanding that a part is less than the whole of which it is a part. When our understanding of an object that is indefinable (e.g., a whole) involves our understanding of another object that is indefinable (e.g., a part), and of the relation between them, that understanding is expressed in a self-evident proposition which is not trifling, uninstructive, or analytic, in Locke's sense or Kant's, for no definitions are involved. Nor is it a synthetic a priori judgment in Kant's sense, even though it has incorrigible certitude; and it is certainly not synthetic a posteriori since, being intrinsically indemonstrable, it cannot be supported by statements offering empirical evidence or reasons. The contemporary denial that there are any indisputable statements which are not merely verbal or tautological, together with the contemporary assertion that all non-tautological statements require extrinsic support or certification and that none has incorrigible certitude, is therefore falsified by the existence of a third type of statement, exemplified by the axiom or self-evident truth that a finite whole is greater than any of its parts, or that a part is less than the finite whole to which it belongs. It could as readily be exemplified by the self-evident truth that the good is the desirable, or that the desirable is the good -- a statement that is known to be true entirely from an understanding of its terms, both of which are indefinables. One cannot say what the good is except by reference to desire, or what desire is except by reference to the good. The understanding of either involves the understanding of the other, and the understanding of both, each in relation to the other, is expressed in a proposition per se nota, i.e., self-evident or known to be true as soon as its terms are understood. Such propositions are neither analytic nor synthetic in the modern sense of that dichotomy; for the predicate is neither contained in the definition of the subject, nor does it lie entirely outside the meaning of the subject. Axioms or self-evident truths are, furthermore, truths about objects understood, objects that can have instantiation in reality, and so they are not merely verbal. They are not a priori because they are based on experience, as all our knowledge and understanding is; yet they are not empirical or a posteriori in the sense that they can be falsified by experience or require empirical investigation for their confirmation. The little error in the beginning, which consists in a non-exhaustive dichotomy mistakenly regarded as exhaustive, is corrected when we substitute for it a trichotomy that distinguishes (i) merely verbal tautologies, (ii) statements of fact that require empirical support and can be empirically falsified, (iii) axiomatic statements, expressing indemonstrable truths of understanding which, while based upon experience, do not require empirical support and cannot be empirically falsified.[6]
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 7, 2008
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-----Jack: I succumb to argument by self-evidency. -----And I will point out that, conversely, I will never get anyplace with Stephen or Barry. -----But I am firmly convinced that it is not self-evident that transcendent moral standards exist. What is self evident is IF there are no transcendent moral truths, then there is no morality. What is self evident is that IF the universe is not rational, then it is futile to try to understand it using rational principles. What is self evident is that IF the law of non-contradiction is false, then science is impossible, communication is impossible, and rationality itself is impossible. What is self evident is that IF we deny these and other first principles, then it makes no sense to argue on behalf of anything for any reason.StephenB
May 7, 2008
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If someone denies that which is self-evident, as Bob and Jack have done, by definition there is no arguing with them, because argument absolutely depends upon a common frame of reference from which to argue.
Yes. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the rational simplicity of the argument "we just do" is not going to be open to your logic.specs
May 7, 2008
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benkeshet, I course I didn't not state that mass murder is okay for ME. The entire point is that mass murder MUST have been okay for THEM. Therefore, if this 'Natural Law' does exist and if it is 'in our bones' as had been stated earlier, that does not mean that the way it is interpreted in practice is any less subjective than if one did not exist at all. Assuming the intelligence whom designed us is the same that designed the Natural Law, said intelligence gave us no way that we can objectively apply that law, because each situation has to be filtered through our conscience, which is a subjective filter. Clearly if the Natural Law does exist, each individual interprets it through their own experience, which will differ the interpretation. In this respect, we can never objectively determine what the 'true' Natural Law is (unless, as DaveScot stated earlier, said creator tells us INDIVIDUALLY and not filtered through someone else’s subjective experience), so in practice we must (and do) live as if that Natural Law is ultimately unknowable and arrive at moral standards that are consensus, subjective, opinions which constantly shift with time and culture. This is, of course, living as if it did not exist in the first place.leo
May 7, 2008
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Jack Krebs @ 75:
But I am firmly convinced that it is not self-evident that transcendent moral standards exist.
On what self-evidenciary basis do you dismiss that such transcendent moral standards were transmitted to humans from a transcendent God? The fact of the Bible's existence as a book, is self-evident. The fact that God therein declares Himself to be creator, is self-evident. The fact that God therein transmitted moral standards, is self-evident. The fact that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, reiterated and retransmitted those moral standards, is self-evident. Understandbly, you dismiss all that as unauthentic and mere myth, albeit perhaps very old written down myth. And yet, the fact remains that transcendant God gave transcendent information to Daniel 564 years in advance that God's only begotten Son, the Messiah Prince would come. It is provably true that Daniel wrote down a transcendent prophecy 564 years in advance of it's exact fulfilment at the baptism in the Jordan river of Jesus Christ.:
"Daniel's exact foretelling, unmistakably fulfilled in a unique confluence of events, could only be foreknown and revealed to Daniel by God. It is in fulfilled biblical prophecy (the foretelling of future events controlled and known only by God, and verified after the fact) that we can recognize God's unforgeable "signature" to the Bible, and the authenticity God demonstrates in fulfilled prophecy can be extended to as yet unfulfilled prophecy and the entire Bible as well."
So, absent any disproof of the archaeological and historical evidence presented therein (and I would caution you to not presume until you have carefully reviewed the factual evidence presented and arguments refuted), why then is it not self-evident to you that only a transcendant God could so authenticate His existence and that of His Son, and the concomitant transmitals of their transcendent moral standards to us? Reiterating then, on what self-evidenciary basis do you dismiss that such transcendent moral standards were transmitted to humans from a transcendent God?Charles
May 7, 2008
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"But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists. All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard." Yes, but how can you know that what people say about this standard is good? Heck, I could write out a list of commandments, say they were from god, and how would you be able to argue with me? How could the only thing making murder wrong be that it just happened to be against the "transcendent standard"? I'll agree that it's much easier to get people to follow a moral code if you get to claim it's an order from god/the supernatural. But ultimately, you need to justify WHY things are good and bad. Ultimately it comes down to whether certain actions affect people positively or negatively.dreamwalker007
May 7, 2008
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-----Barry A: "You are wasting your time with Jack Krebs and Bob O’H. Let me quote Lewis again [see 21] from The Abolition of Man." -----"Stephen, you are making a valiant effort to prove that which cannot be proved. If someone denies that which is self-evident, as Bob and Jack have done, by definition there is no arguing with them, because argument absolutely depends upon a common frame of reference from which to argue. And that common frame of reference in turn depends upon accepting as self-evident that which is self-evident." Yes, I have read Lewis and found him compelling in this context. G.K. Chesterton also made the same point in his own way. I agree that self evident truths cannot be proven, nor do they lend themselves to "evidence." Indeed, it is the in the act of denyting self evident truths and then demanding evidence for their existence that irrational people reveal their irrationality.StephenB
May 7, 2008
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Very informative BarryA. Thanks for posting. The issue of moral accountability to an objective standard, in extreme form, is what ultimately drove me from materialistic naturalism to Theism. In contrast to Leo, who glibly implies that mass murder may be okay, even as a naturalist it was self-evident to me that the murderous Nazi Third Reich inflicted untold criminal horror on millions of humans like me, including guiltless children. At the same time the naturalism I espoused compounded the issue by saying that when you die you are dead forever – every human's sentient self-awareness ceases evermore upon death. My conflict as a naturalist was this: For both Nazis and their murdered victims, senseless oblivion is their everlasting fate. Nazi murderers and victims alike share the eternal void equally. Multitudes of Nazis received no punishment for their cruel deeds, but none of the millions of murdered victims will ever receive compensation for being deprived of life against their will. To me the implications were clear with two basic choices: 1) As a materialistic naturalist death is the eternal end and the preceding life is essentially meaningless. For multiplied millions of fellow humans life is the cruelest hoax ever devised and perpetrated. (Ask them if Hitler, Stalin and Mao were following some "natural law.") 2) Perhaps death is not the end, but there actually is a Great Judge who will punish and compensate. There certainly has been testimony of such judgment in the world for millennia. I decided to check out number 2 and attempt communication with this "Great Judge." I was assuredly answered.benkeshet
May 7, 2008
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I succumb to argument by self-evidency. :-) And I will point out that, conversely, I will never get anyplace with Stephen or Barry. But I am firmly convinced that it is not self-evident that transcendent moral standards exist.Jack Krebs
May 7, 2008
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"How do we know what the TSA morality is?" I think this is still the most important question (to those who believe it exists). It is quite easy to say "I feel it in my heart" or "it is in my bones", but entirely meaningless. All that you are saying is: "What I believe is what the TSA is and anyone who believes differently is mistaken, misinterperated, etc." So, how do we know that Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc. were not correctly obying the 'Natural Moral Law'? Because YOU wouldn't do it is not an answer. Even if it is not what you feel in your bones - well they felt it in theirs. So, even if a Natual Law exists, there is obviously a degree of subjectivity in its application withing each consiousness, making reality no more morally objective in practice, than if one did not exist.leo
May 7, 2008
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StephenB, You are wasting your time with Jack Krebs and Bob O'H. Let me quote Lewis again [see 21] from The Abolition of Man. “I am not trying to PROVE [the validity of the Tao] by the argument from common consent. Its validity cannot be deduced. For those who do not perceive its rationality, even universal consent could not prove it.” Emphasis in the original. Stephen, you are making a valiant effort to prove that which cannot be proved. If someone denies that which is self-evident, as Bob and Jack have done, by definition there is no arguing with them, because argument absolutely depends upon a common frame of reference from which to argue. And that common frame of reference in turn depends upon accepting as self-evident that which is self-evident. Jack was correct when he said you will never get anywhere with him.BarryA
May 7, 2008
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-----Bob O’H: “Well, on inspection, I can come up with reasons why you are an idiot, and hence argue why it’s obviously true (and you are therefore in denial about your status).” Let me try to lay it out for you again. One (not the only) important philosophical truth that allows science its legitimacy is the proposition that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances. This is a self evident truth for all rational people. It is not something that you prove; it is something that you use for proof. If it isn’t true, there is no science, no communication, no inferences, or no syllogisms. -----“So, the problem remains: how can we distinguish a “self-evident truth” from an individual’s subjective impression? What form of judgment are you going to appeal to?” We distinguish a “self-evident truth” from an individual’s subjective impression by knowing the necessary conditions for rationality. Some things are more basic than others. The law of non-contradiction, for example, is a basic, self evident truth. It is not something to be proven; it is something to be assumed. If you don’t assume it, then you are not a rational person. We can say the same thing about the rationality of the world in which we live. If the universe is not rational, then it is rather stupid to try to understand it. This, by the way, is another self evident truth (for rational people that is).StephenB
May 7, 2008
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Jack Krebs, You seem to be asking your questions as if the TSAs have an obligation to produce a treatise on epistemology for your considered review while you have the freedom to sit on the sidelines and ask academic questions—as if you’re not obligated to engage with moral issues personally. Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. We’re all in the game and as such the “written in the heart” answer that some have proposed is still better than your non-answer. So, I’d like to propose that we approach your questions from the following practical situation. One of the Russian novelists (I forget which one) tells the story about a soldier who wrenches a baby from his screaming mother’s arms, tosses him into the air, and then catches the child on his bayonet as she looks on. Is this event: 1. Wrong, period. Regardless of time, place, culture, reason or any other extenuating circumstance you care to name (i.e., it reflects a transcendent moral value) 2. Wrong “for the mother” but right “for the soldier” (the “wrong for you but right for me” argument is very much in vogue on college campuses these days) 3. The soldier's actions “make me uncomfortable” but I can’t say that he's wrong (variation on #2) 4. Not possible to evaluate because we can’t know if morals are transcendent or not. 5. Traditional morality is without grounding because it’s just an adaptation. (EO Wilson’s view) 6. Other. I know what my answer is. Please provide yours and justify how you know which is correct.SteveB
May 7, 2008
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A subjective impression or an interpretation of facts is not synonymous with a self evident truth. Think about what the words “self evident truth” really mean. Truth means that which happens to be the case. Self evident means that the proof is obvious upon inspection. What could be more reliable than that which is obviously true upon inspection?
Well, on inspection, I can come up with reasons why you are an idiot, and hence argue why it's obviously true (and you are therefore in denial about your status). So, the problem remains: how can we distinguish a "self-evident truth" from an individual's subjective impression? What form of judgement are you going to appeal to?Bob O'H
May 7, 2008
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So forgive me for being unclear. But the point you are making, that there is a nearly universal agreement on the natural law, was a means to an end to Lewis. I especially don't think you are going to get anywhere with an agnostic arguing that point, and there is no reason to try. Lewis' point was simply that there is a law. DaveScot and you have both stated you believe in a transcendent moral law. Lewis simply went one step further and concluded there must be a lawgiver. DaveScot is a bit behind Lewis there, but maybe if you quit making an argument out of something you agree on you could get somewhere.tragicmishap
May 7, 2008
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BarryA: "Actually, Lewis believed this very thing and stated as much in The Abolition of Man and Mere Christianity. You are simply wrong." Well yes since you took that statement out of context Lewis would have disagreed with it. Ekstasis has made my point a bit better.tragicmishap
May 7, 2008
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There is a great little book on this general topic, Relativism: Feet firmly planted in mid-air, by Francis Beckwith and Gregory Koukl.GilDodgen
May 7, 2008
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BarryA: "tragicmishap writes: “Lewis didn’t really believe there was a standard natural law which everyone believed.” Actually, Lewis believed this very thing and stated as much in The Abolition of Man and Mere Christianity. You are simply wrong." Agree, but we do need to qualify. True, the universal standard exists. However, much like Platonic forms are modified in their manifestation, so goes the universal standard. The modification takes place in two ways: 1. Picture the universal standard as a boat anchor. A boat will move about within a certain range due to local conditions, e.g., tide, breeze. The local conditions do not erase the universal standard, but accommodate some range of movement. For example, as C.S. Lewis presented it, modesty is a universal standard, but it may be different in Bali as opposed to North Korea, perhaps due to differences in climate. Or for another example, hard work in children is a universal standard, but it may take place in a framework of education for us today, while in past years there was more of an emphasis on chores around the farm, ranch, or shop. 2. We can dilute the effects of the universal standard by continuous rationalization and justification. This if often seen in the case of the embezzler or those who pilfer corporate property. "The company screwed me over, so I am just taking my fair share". And one could argue that the Materialist activists are justifying the intolerance toward IDers in career positions based on constant rationalization, even while understanding it is wrong. "15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them" Romans 2Ekstasis
May 7, 2008
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Barry, I sent a copy of your post to a law school friend of mine and this is what he wrote in return; Thanks, I have been looking for those words for a long time. I knew there was someone out there thinking like me, but I could not find them. Thank you thank you. Much thanks. I will use this online and in the classroom. In fact I needed this today, but fell short of getting to your hotmail in time. I will use it from now on, with a couselink stuck to it to retreive immediately. Barry, If you knew my law school friend you would laugh out loud at this, because he is not the type of individual to let a sleeping dog lay, he will use your article as a springboard to start and defend many spirited debates in his class.bornagain77
May 7, 2008
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I have never had meaningful conversation with any human being who at some point has not appealed to an assumed higher moral standard. Those who appeal to moral relativism are posers. Unless one is a psychopath, this standard is known in our bones.toc
May 7, 2008
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Hi Barry: Excellent post, and it has sure provoked a striking series of comments on the roots of reason and morality. STEP 1: On the first of these -- WRT undeniably self-evident truths -- I suggest Mr Krebs et al reflect on the claim that Josiah Royce drew so much from: "error exists."
--> Try to deny it. Oops, one necessarily instantiates an error. So it is evident in itself on inspection with insight. --> So, we see that some things refer to reality accurately, but we may be wrong about claims to such truth. --> Humbling: truth exists, but we may be mistaken. (And in that lieth the grain of truth in teh relativist clai9m, i.e we may be mistaken. But to be mistaken is to imply that there is something to be mistaken about: reality and truth that says of what is, that it is, and of what is not, that it is not.)
STEP 2: are there MORAL truths, more than mere personal or collective "values"? ANS: Credibly, yes, and as will be shown shortly. WHY: Lewisian observation -- we quarrel, i.e disagree with vehemence, and try to show one another IN THE WRONG.
--> That is, we agree intuitively and globally that the Tao exists. --> More than that, we agree we are bound by it: a duty to truth, to fairness and respect of person [especially when we or those we are close to are on the receiving end of wrong], --> Also, we EXPECT tha tthe other in teh quarrel seesand understands the principle at stake. --> As a rule, this is indeed so: the other party does not bat us aside as a lion does the bleatings of a gazelle, but instead tries to show that nope s/he was NOT in the wrong. [The "there is an exception" argument is a favourite way to do that.] --> resemblance to events in this and related threads is not coincidental.
So, we disagree -- not on whether right or wrong exist or that we can in praxis discern basic principles such as fairness and respect -- we disagree on where duty lies when our particular interests are at stake. That is we see conflict of interest at work, a notorious blinder to the truth and the right. This brings me to . . . STEP 3: Locke's start-point for the foundation of liberty, from Ch 2, section 5 in his 2nd essay on civil gov't, citing anglican theologian Hooker:
. . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
Locke then draws out:
The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions [Cf R^om 13 v 8 - 10] . . . . so by the like reason, when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he as much as he can to preserve the rest of mankind, and not unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another . . . . In transgressing the law of Nature, the offender declares himself to live by another rule than that of reason and common equity, which is that measure God has set to the actions of men for their mutual security [i.e. we see here the right to self-defense for the community, and also the individual, as is discussed at length in the work], and so he becomes dangerous to mankind . . . . [Ch III, S 17] he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power [i.e. to tyrannise upon another, by force, fraud, usurpation or invasion] does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it.
This is the underlying direct context of the 2nd para of the US DOI of 1776 [which is deeply foreshadowed in say the Calvinist Dutch DOI of 1581, of the century before the rise of Deism as a movement]. Contrast that with the evide4nt undermining of the principles of mutuality and respect that lurk in the idea that "might makes 'right'" -- which of course keeps company with the ideas of the survival of the fittest and nature red in tooth an claw that historically were deeply embedded in the rise of the ideas of a Holmes, and of those in other states who took up yet more virulent forms of such principles. No prizes for guessing just which states and with just what results. In short,t he alternative to self-evident truths and acceptance of the transcendent Tao, is force, whether naked or veiled: "might makes 'right,'" and "propaganda/manipulation makes 'truth.'" Somewhere out there the ghost of Plato is shaking his head as he tries to remind us of his parable of the Cave. And the ghost of Socrates and that of Aristotle are joining in the chorus too. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 7, 2008
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"Well, no, all rational people don’t assume that. In fact some rational people are loath to assume things that are not knowable and might very well be false." There is not one person alive of sound mind who does not assume something. Please define "knowable" Vividvividblue
May 6, 2008
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tragicmishap writes: "Lewis didn’t really believe there was a standard natural law which everyone believed." Actually, Lewis believed this very thing and stated as much in The Abolition of Man and Mere Christianity. You are simply wrong.BarryA
May 6, 2008
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----"Bob O'H: It’s self-evident to me that you are an idiot. Is that a reliable truth?" ----"(OK, I don’t think you are an idiot, but I hope you see my point)" A subjective impression or an interpretation of facts is not synonymous with a self evident truth. Think about what the words "self evident truth" really mean. Truth means that which happens to be the case. Self evident means that the proof is obvious upon inspection. What could be more reliable than that which is obviously true upon inspection? Now you could argue that there are too few self-evident truths to be of any help. Or you could argue that a truth that is reputed to be self evident is either not true or not self evident. But you cannot reasonably argue against the proposition that a self evident truth is the best kind to have.StephenB
May 6, 2008
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WOW!!! Some really good stuff here, Barry. I don't think we'll reach a satisfactory conclusion for everyone, but it is fun. Keeps the ol' brain wavin'. Question for Mr. Krebs: So, where exactly do we start?Jack Golightly
May 6, 2008
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Well, sir, this is a well written and well reasoned blog entry. I agree. Period. Thanks BarryA! However, I fear that these very deep questions will lead to schisms. Ah, never mind. We're much bigger people than the close minded evolanders. We know that a seed planted today might take awhile before it sprouts, grows, and bears good fruit. Meanwhile, who is afraid to disagree? Not this side.William Wallace
May 6, 2008
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StephenB -
Self evident truths are the best and the most reliable of all truths.
It's self-evident to me that you are an idiot. Is that a reliable truth? (OK, I don't think you are an idiot, but I hope you see my point)Bob O'H
May 6, 2008
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-----"Well, no, all rational people don’t assume that. In fact some rational people are loath to assume things that are not knowable and might very well be false." If one doesn't agree that we live in a rational universe, then how can one be a rational person? Is it possible to be a rational person in an irrational universe? To be sure, it is POSSIBLE that objective truth is an illusion, but if it is an illusion, then rationality collapses. -----"Now if you define rational to mean one who agrees with you and makes the assumption that the transcendent exists, then you are begging the question." No, I am simply pointing out that rationality has several starting points. If a person doesn't believe that the whole is greater than the sum of all the parts, that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time, and that rationality exists independent of his biases, prejudices, and feelings, then he is not a rational person. These things cannot be proven anymore than the fact that anyone exists outside of our own mind can be proven. We simply accept it. These are self evident truths that all rational people assume without question. -----"So what I gather is that your belief in the transcendent is so strongly held that you can not conceive of it being any other way: that it is “self evidently true and any rational person would assume it to be so” is self-evidently true … and so on forever with no further evidence or reasoning to back it up." You don't back up self evident truths with evidence. Evidence is something that occurs once rationality is accepted. You can't believe in evidence or science if you don't believe in their metaphysical foundations. I suggest that you read "The Metaphysical foundations of modern science," by Burtt. ----"I, however, am a rational person, and the existence of the transcendent is not self-evidently true to me (nor is it’s absence self-evidently true to me, either, by the way), and therefore I do not assume it." Either truth and morality exist or they do not. If they do not exist, then there is no reason to discuss them or argue about them. By what standard do you challenge my assertions if there is no such thing as objective truth or objective morality. The very fact that you are arguing with me about it proves that you believe in objecitve truth. You are saying that my statements do not conform to "the truth." Overwise, you would not attempt to refute what you perceive as my erroneous statements. If truth is whatever we want it to be, then there can be no rationality.StephenB
May 6, 2008
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He then logically deduced that if there was a law, there must be a lawgiver. Laws do not simply come into being of their own accord. There is a mind, or intelligence if you will, behind them. Lewis was a design theorist pertaining to morality rather than science.tragicmishap
May 6, 2008
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Barry and Dave: Lewis didn't really believe there was a standard natural law which everyone believed. There was no standard code that everyone implicitly knows through their conscience. But he found it significant that everyone, despite the differences, BELIEVES in a code. That was the key point for Lewis. Everyone believes there is a code, and though there is no consensus, we are constantly arguing about what it really is. For him, the only reasonable explanation is that there is an existing code to which we have been blinded in varying degrees.tragicmishap
May 6, 2008
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