Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Biostatistician Makes “Own Goal” in Argument Against Dembski

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Recently a criticism was leveled against Dembski’s 2005 paper Specification: the pattern that signifies intelligence. As is often the case, if you read the criticism carefully, you will realize that, even though he says Dembski is wrong, it turns out that the more exacting answer would favor Dembski’s conclusion more strongly, not less.

In the blog The Dread Tomato Addiction, professional biostatistician Dan Eastwood claims that Dembski’s paper is fundamentally flawed.

Most people use the term “fundamentally flawed” to refer to flaws that are not merely minor mistakes or oversimplifications, but rather to things which are unrecoverable. In this case, it is not a mistake, and, if it is an oversimplification, it is certainly an oversimplification that Dembski made in favor of his critics.

Eastwood criticizes Dembski’s formula for estimating the chance occurrence of an event E adjusted for complexity and opportunity. The formula being criticized is here:

M * N * Phi(T) * P(T|H)

If I ever get the LaTeX plugin installed, the better typeset version will be:

$$ M \cdot N \cdot \phi_S(T)\cdot\mathrm{P}(T\vert\mathrm{H}) $$

In any case P(T|H) is the base probability of a target, Phi(T) is the descriptive complexity of the target, M is the number of attempters and N is the number of attempts each one makes.

The criticism of Eastwood is that multiplying Phi(T)*P(T|H) by these other factors doesn’t leave us with a probability, because they are merely positive integers, and it leaves open the possibility of a probability greater than one.

However, he seems to be not understanding how proofs are done. Dembski, here, is not giving the actual probability, instead he is giving an upper bound on the probability, which Dembski says explicitly in his paper, using the term “bounded above.” Strangely, Eastwood later realizes this, but continues to criticize despite the fact that his own criticism has been undercut!

In fact, not only is Dembski employing a simple upper bounding technique, it is one of the oldest upper bounding techniques in probability history – Boole’s inequality.

Boole’s inequality simply states that if you have a set of probabilities, the probability of the union of those probabilities is going to be less than their sum. This is exactly what Dembski is doing. Since each chance is Phi(T)*P(T|H), then making M*N attempts means that each of those attempts will be Phi(T)*P(T|H). Therefore, the sum of all of those probabilities will be M*N*P(T|H), which, according to Boole’s inequality, is greater than or equal to the actual probability.

As you can see, using one of the oldest statistics upper bounding methods in history is not an error, it is just statistics. If you were to calculate the probability exactly, I believe it would just be (1 – (1 – Phi(T)*P(T|H))^(M*N)). However, this is much harder to calculate and compare with. That is why Dembski chooses instead to upper bound it – it makes direct comparisons of other quantities much easier.

So, in short, by using an upper-bounding technique, Dembski is actually limiting the power of CSI. The case is actually stronger than what Dembski points out. Eastwood is complaining that Dembski’s paper is “fundamentally flawed” by doing this. However, for the “flaw” that Eastwood points out, the paper’s estimates are actually in Eastwood’s favor already, and if they were corrected they would flow in Dembski’s direction, not Eastwood’s.

I always find it amusing when Darwinists slam Intelligent Design for errors, but if you look at their corrections, the result is just as bad as before, and, in this case, worse. For instance, attempting to criticize Behe, Durrett and Schmidt point out that Behe was wrong, wrong, wrong about his probability estimates of mutations, while simultaneously pointing out that his conclusion (that such events are “very unlikely to occur on a reasonable timescale”) is 100% correct.

If one Darwinist gives an estimate, and another Darwinist later gives a more accurate estimate, that is considered a simple improvement. If an ID’er gives an estimate, and a Darwinist later gives a more accurate estimate, despite it pointing to the same conclusion, that is considered a rebuttal and a disproof.

Hey, if you can’t score goals against your opponent, I guess you can at least score own goals.

Comments
EZ:
If H doesn’t exist then you cannot assign a probability of T given H. Clearly.
It would be zero, as explained.
Universal descent with modification has some ramifications which include: a genomic tree showing branches of dissent (which we observe), morphological simularities within geographical limitation (bio-geographic data), lines of fossils which uphold the other lines of data, etc.
Universal design with modification has some ramifications which include: a genomic tree showing branches of similarities and differences (which we observe), morphological similarities within geographical limitation (bio-geographic data), lines of fossils which uphold the other lines of data, etc. Also you need an H pertaining to materialistic processes. You failed to provide one.
How can H vary?
Because T varies, duh.
Meanwhile you are claiming that Dr Dembski, who was trying to make a positive case for ID, included a term which doesn’t make sense.
No, that is only your nonsensical slant on what is going on. And it's sad that you ask questions when you have already been provided the answers.Virgil Cain
February 25, 2016
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#31 Joe/Virgil
If a hypothesis doesn’t exist what value do you assign it? I would say the probability of hitting a target using a non-existent hypothesis is zero.
P(T|H) means the probability of T given H. If H doesn't exist then you cannot assign a probability of T given H. Clearly.
Show me a testable hypothesis for it.
A hypothesis is ah informed guess. Universal descent with modification has some ramifications which include: a genomic tree showing branches of dissent (which we observe), morphological simularities within geographical limitation (bio-geographic data), lines of fossils which uphold the other lines of data, etc.
I assume that there isn’t any viable H for the materialistic position. And the probability of hitting the target with a hypothesis that doesn’t exist is still zero.
That probability is not defined. Meaning it is not computable. Which is different from zero.
I have already been over that, many times. There are times when there are viable H’s. And stop blaming me for your failures. If you had some way of actually testing the claims of your position we wouldn’t need probabilities. And Dembski is granting you too much by even including yours in a probability discussion. So you are right in that for the most part P(T|H) doesn’t make any sense because neither you nor anyone else has anything to get it started. Nice own goal.
How can H vary? I'm not blaming you, I'm asking you how you can define a conditional probability based on a hypothesis you claim doesn't exist. Meanwhile you are claiming that Dr Dembski, who was trying to make a positive case for ID, included a term which doesn't make sense. Are you going to tell him or should I/ellazimm
February 25, 2016
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Jerad:
So, because ‘evolutionists’ have failed to come up with the appropriate unguided hypothesis, H, you can’t compute P(T|H) BUT you say it’s zero. That doesn’t make sense. H is a hypothesis. It’s not a number.
If a hypothesis doesn't exist what value do you assign it? I would say the probability of hitting a target using a non-existent hypothesis is zero.
Let’s say H is universal common descent with modifications. Show me the calculations you would to to find P(T|H).
Show me a testable hypothesis for it.
But you just say it, you don’t provide any calculations or mathematical justifications. To determine P(T|H) you must be, at least, assuming an H. What H are you assuming (since you say ‘evolutionists’ haven’t got one).
I assume that there isn't any viable H for the materialistic position. And the probability of hitting the target with a hypothesis that doesn't exist is still zero.
If there is no such hypothesis (which makes you wonder why Dr Dembski put it in his formula) then P(T|H) doesn’t make sense.
I have already been over that, many times. There are times when there are viable H's. And stop blaming me for your failures. If you had some way of actually testing the claims of your position we wouldn't need probabilities. And Dembski is granting you too much by even including yours in a probability discussion. So you are right in that for the most part P(T|H) doesn't make any sense because neither you nor anyone else has anything to get it started. Nice own goal.Virgil Cain
February 25, 2016
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#28 Joe/Virgil
P(T|H) for ATP synthase is zero. There isn’t anything in the scientific literature that contradicts that. Heck there isn’t anything in said literature explaining what H would be in the case of ATP synthase.
So, because 'evolutionists' have failed to come up with the appropriate unguided hypothesis, H, you can't compute P(T|H) BUT you say it's zero. That doesn't make sense. H is a hypothesis. It's not a number. Let's say H is universal common descent with modifications. Show me the calculations you would to to find P(T|H).
I told you why it is zero wrt ATP synthase.
But you just say it, you don't provide any calculations or mathematical justifications. To determine P(T|H) you must be, at least, assuming an H. What H are you assuming (since you say 'evolutionists' haven't got one).
Why can’t you form a case against my claim? Are you inept and need the help of the group?
Let's first figure out what you are claiming shall we? If you think the conditional probability of T given H is zero then what H are you using?
Look, Jerad, if something was able to be confirmed or refuted via experimentation then probability calculations are moot. Empirical tests rule science. Probabilities only come into play when those are non-existent, as is the case with ATP synthase. But then again I don’t expect you to understand that.
Well, Dr Dembski proposed his formula a decade ago and you claim that part of that formula, P(T|H), is zero for ATP synthase. But that means you must be working with a particular H to perform the calculations and I'm just asking you what H you are using. You say 'evolutionists' haven't got an H so you must be assuming one, what is it?
There isn’t one to use and because of that P(T|H) for ATP synthase is zero. As I said you are incapable of following along.
Well then can you explain to me how you compute a conditional probability when you say the condition doesn't exist? IF H doesn't make sense then P(T|H) doesn't make sense which is not the same as being zero. Clearly.
Remember that if there aren’t any such hypotheses then P(T|H) is zero.
No, that is not correct. If there is no such hypothesis (which makes you wonder why Dr Dembski put it in his formula) then P(T|H) doesn't make sense. It doesn't make it equal to zero. Those are two completely different conclusions.ellazimm
February 25, 2016
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Jerad:
So you can’t compute a factor of Dr Dembski’s metric because evolutionary theorists have failed to provide you with the data?
I can compute it. It all depends on the CONTEXT. And evolutionists have failed to support the claims of their position. Don't blame me
Then why do you think it’s zero?
I told you why it is zero wrt ATP synthase.
But how do I know unless I hear dissenting views?
Why can't you form a case against my claim? Are you inept and need the help of the group? Look, Jerad, if something was able to be confirmed or refuted via experimentation then probability calculations are moot. Empirical tests rule science. Probabilities only come into play when those are non-existent, as is the case with ATP synthase. But then again I don't expect you to understand that.
What H are you using then?
There isn't one to use and because of that P(T|H) for ATP synthase is zero. As I said you are incapable of following along.
Remember that P(T|H) is the probability of T given the appropriate naturalistic hypothesis.
Remember that if there aren't any such hypotheses then P(T|H) is zero.Virgil Cain
February 25, 2016
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#26 Joe/Virgil
That is incorrect and proves that you lack reading comprehension skills or you are on an agenda of obfuscation.
I'll leave it up to readers of this thread to decide.
The value of P(T|H) is CONTEXT specific, Jerad. And it involves all Darwinian and neo-darwinian processes. Meaning it pertains to this alleged evolutionary theory. So in the CONTEXT of ATP synthase and the inability of your position to explain its existence via your posited mechanisms, they are one in the same.
So you can't compute a factor of Dr Dembski's metric because evolutionary theorists have failed to provide you with the data? Then why do you think it's zero?
And I don’t care what Gordon says. It is what he can support that matters. And I have supported my claim on many occasions. And that is the problem with you- this has all be explained many, many times and you are still stuck in denial mode without anything but your handwaving for support.
Well, I'm interested in what he says. If he can be bothered to comment. I'm also interested in what the author of this thread, johnnyb thinks. If we're going to have a debate then everyone is welcome!! And I wouldn't want to assume that Joe's position is ID canon if it isn't. But how do I know unless I hear dissenting views? #27 Joe/Virgil
P(T|H) for ATP synthase is zero. There isn’t anything in the scientific literature that contradicts that. Heck there isn’t anything in said literature explaining what H would be in the case of ATP synthase.
What H are you using then? Earlier you seemed to say it was up to evolutionary theorists to come up with H otherwise you couldn't figure out P(T|H) and now you're saying it's zero. Is it zero for other biological systems and events? Remember that P(T|H) is the probability of T given the appropriate naturalistic hypothesis.ellazimm
February 25, 2016
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P(T|H) for ATP synthase is zero. There isn't anything in the scientific literature that contradicts that. Heck there isn't anything in said literature explaining what H would be in the case of ATP synthase.Virgil Cain
February 25, 2016
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Jerad:
P(T|H) is a conditional probability.
Yes, I know. It deals with mere specification only.
You just said the formula and P(T|H) was for more than ATP synthase and now you’re saying the value of P(T|H) and having no explanation for the development of ATP synthase are ‘one in the same’.
That is incorrect and proves that you lack reading comprehension skills or you are on an agenda of obfuscation. The value of P(T|H) is CONTEXT specific, Jerad. And it involves all Darwinian and neo-darwinian processes. Meaning it pertains to this alleged evolutionary theory. So in the CONTEXT of ATP synthase and the inability of your position to explain its existence via your posited mechanisms, they are one in the same. And I don't care what Gordon says. It is what he can support that matters. And I have supported my claim on many occasions. And that is the problem with you- this has all be explained many, many times and you are still stuck in denial mode without anything but your handwaving for support.Virgil Cain
February 25, 2016
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#24 Joe
And snowflakes apply. Again you are unable to follow along and unable to think.
Not the existence of snowflakes, just the occurrence of a particular pattern.
The formula isn’t just for ATP synthase. Try to think for yourself.
I didn't say it did. I only brought that in as an example since you had already mentioned it. If you can compute P(T|H) for something else, (pick a gene, any gene) I'll listen.
They are one in the same. Again thanks for proving that you are unable to follow along and unable to think.
You just said the formula and P(T|H) was for more than ATP synthase and now you're saying the value of P(T|H) and having no explanation for the development of ATP synthase are 'one in the same'. Make up your mind.
The only people who disagree with it are people who are unable to follow along and unable to think.
Let's see what Gordon says. Assuming he's still following this thread and (in my opinion) is willing to disagree with you).
BTW P(T|H) is not about CSI. It is about whether or not specification warrants a design inference.
P(T|H) is a conditional probability. And Dr Dembski put it in a formula which he described in the following way (page 21 of his 2005 paper):
Moreover, we define the logarithm to the base 2 of M·N·?S(T)·P(T|H) as the context- dependent specified complexity of T given H, the context being S’s context of inquiry:
ellazimm
February 25, 2016
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Jerad:
That doesn’t explain why Dr Dembski included it in his formula.
So you are unable to follow along and unable to think. Got it
P(T|H) is about an occurrence of a pattern T given the appropriate naturalistic hypothesis.
And snowflakes apply. Again you are unable to follow along and unable to think.
Then Dr Dembski would not have included it in his formula.
The formula isn't just for ATP synthase. Try to think for yourself.
We’re talking about the value of P(T|H) not whether or not evolutionary theory can explain ATP synthase.
They are one in the same. Again thanks for proving that you are unable to follow along and unable to think. The only reason P(T|H) exists is because evolutionists have failed to come up with something scientifically testable.
Do you agree with this Gordon?
The only people who disagree with it are people who are unable to follow along and unable to think.
I think...
All evidence to the contrary, of course. BTW P(T|H) is not about CSI. It is about whether or not specification warrants a design inference.Virgil Cain
February 25, 2016
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#20 Joe/Virgil
Yes, if there was some scientific way to test the claim then it is not required. It is only required when there isn’t any way to test the claim via experiments.
That doesn't explain why Dr Dembski included it in his formula. He said nothing about testing any claims in his paper.
Even if the context was forming snowflakes given specific conditions?
P(T|H) is about an occurrence of a pattern T given the appropriate naturalistic hypothesis.
It is still 0 as there aren’t any scientifically valid hypotheses (H) for ATP synthase arising via stochastic processes.
Then Dr Dembski would not have included it in his formula. Clearly he thought it wasn't zero. #21 Joe/Virgil
So you think that it is OK that evolutionists don’t have an explanation for the evolution of ATP synthase via natural selection, drift and/ or neutral construction, they can’t even provide a testable hypothesis, and that is the fault of ID? Really?
We're talking about the value of P(T|H) not whether or not evolutionary theory can explain ATP synthase.
The only reason P(T|H) exists is because evolutionists have failed to come up with something scientifically testable.
Do you agree with this Gordon? #22 Joe/Virgil
The only reason said metric exists in the first place is due to the failure of you and yours to be able to scientifically validate the claims of your position, ie the alleged evolutionary theory.
I think Dr Dembski was trying to establish the ability of detecting CSI using some mathematical tests. I think he was doing that because he was trying to make a positive case for ID. You seem to be saying that he did it only because evolutionary theory has failed. Which makes it a designer of the (ever shrinking) gaps argument. It's too bad Dr Dembski himself has seemingly abandoned further work on this. I'm sure he could better address why he thought P(T|H) was essential to his formula.ellazimm
February 24, 2016
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EZ Jerad:
In this case ID proponents are saying they have a metric that they can use to determine when complex, specified information is present but no one seems to be able to calculate the terms of the formula.
The only reason said metric exists in the first place is due to the failure of you and yours to be able to scientifically validate the claims of your position, ie the alleged evolutionary theory. This has been explained to you many, many times and yet you persist with your belligerence. What's up with that?Virgil Cain
February 24, 2016
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Gordon Davisson @ 13- So you think that it is OK that evolutionists don't have an explanation for the evolution of ATP synthase via natural selection, drift and/ or neutral construction, they can't even provide a testable hypothesis, and that is the fault of ID? Really? The only reason P(T|H) exists is because evolutionists have failed to come up with something scientifically testable. And BTW it was Crick who provided the definition of information with respect to biology. So even if CSI didn't exist as a concept evolutionists would still be unable to explain the existence biological information in Crick's terms.Virgil Cain
February 24, 2016
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EZ Jerad:
Evolutionary theory deals with how universal descent with modifications ‘works’ all the time. It has no interest or cause to put it into a form for P(T|H).
Nice bluff
What do you mean you could dispense with P(T|H)?
Yes, if there was some scientific way to test the claim then it is not required. It is only required when there isn't any way to test the claim via experiments.
If someone told me P(T|H) = 1 I’d be extremely skeptical.
Even if the context was forming snowflakes given specific conditions?
I’m not informed enough to talk about the generation of ATP synthase.
You are not informed enough to talk about science, let alone biology.
BUT can you compute P(T|H) for it?
It is still 0 as there aren't any scientifically valid hypotheses (H) for ATP synthase arising via stochastic processes. We have done our work. We have found many biological structures that are irreducibly complex. All you do is deny and handwave the evidence away. And you do that without having anything to support the claims of your position. It’s as if you are oblivious to science and evidence.
What does this have to do with P(T|H)?
You said something about us not doing our work. We have done ours, you and yours have failed to do yours. Do try to follow along.Virgil Cain
February 24, 2016
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#17 johhnyb as in Johnny B Goode? :-)
As to whose onus it is to give an estimate for P(T|H), it depends. I agree that the onus is on the ID’ers to give at least a justified initial estimate. Past that, if someone says that the ID’ers P(T|H) is wrong, wrong, wrong, that requires justification. If someone says that they merely don’t find the justification enough and don’t care to do much else, that is certainly a reasonable path to take.
I think it is fair to critique the formulation and any estimates or calculations of the terms. As long as the discussion is about the mathematics and the arguments used with proper justification. This is how science and mathematics progress: proposals, scrutiny, critiques, refinement, acceptance, repeat. As many scientists have paraphrased: Come up with as many ideas as possible knowing that most of them will be wrong. There's no shame in 'thinking out loud' as long as you jettison the stuff that doesn't work even if it's close to your heart.ellazimm
February 24, 2016
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The facebook discussion is herejohnnyb
February 24, 2016
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Gordon Davisson - First, you should know that there is a big discussion with Eastwood going on one of the Facebook ID pages. This has been pointed out to him and he is just doubling down on his assertion, which I find strange, as it seems an obvious enough point. I actually waited a while before posting this in case he realized the error of his ways and changed his post. Since he doubled down, I thought it was interesting enough to share. As to whose onus it is to give an estimate for P(T|H), it depends. I agree that the onus is on the ID'ers to give at least a justified initial estimate. Past that, if someone says that the ID'ers P(T|H) is wrong, wrong, wrong, that requires justification. If someone says that they merely don't find the justification enough and don't care to do much else, that is certainly a reasonable path to take. The question is, why are people being booted out of academia for holding to reasonably justified propositions, and why are otherwise intelligent people (like Eastwood) making irrational claims about probability, not with the goal of coming to a clearer conclusion, but with the goal of shaming anyone who dares to be associated with such reasoning? If someone wants to doubt someone else's P(T|H) - great! Go for it! Do it with or without justification - I don't really care. But when individuals and groups (such as the NCSE) choose to actively target the careers of people and paint anyone who agrees with them as pseudoscientific because of reasonable differences, then one wonders what it is that is causing people to act so irrationally. And when people with masters degrees in statistics choose to not understand how inequalities work in order to preserve their disagreement or show just how bad, bad, bad someone else is, all I can do is wonder what is really going on.johnnyb
February 24, 2016
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#15 Mung
Reminds me of the response I got when I asked someone to write a test to validate their assertion that they had a program that could demonstrate the power of cumulative selection.
In this case ID proponents are saying they have a metric that they can use to determine when complex, specified information is present but no one seems to be able to calculate the terms of the formula. Or can you calculate P(T|H) for ATP synthase Mung? Can you calculate P(T|H) for something else?ellazimm
February 24, 2016
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Reminds me of the response I got when I asked someone to write a test to validate their assertion that they had a program that could demonstrate the power of cumulative selection.Mung
February 24, 2016
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#10 Virgil/Joe
Address that. It isn’t as if this hasn’t all been explained to you many, many times.
Evolutionary theory deals with how universal descent with modifications 'works' all the time. It has no interest or cause to put it into a form for P(T|H).
What work? That’s the point there isn’t any work just a bunch of proclamations. If they had some actual work then we could dispense with P(T|H) and stick with the results.
What do you mean you could dispense with P(T|H)? Why did Dr Dembski put it into his formula? Clearly he thought it was not dispensable.
It depends on the context and the science.
If someone told me P(T|H) = 1 I'd be extremely skeptical. #11 Joe/Virgil
Look, Jerad, your position makes the claim that ATP synthase arose via natural selection, drift and/ or neutral construction. It is up to you and yours to support that claim with something other than cowardly proclamations.
I'm not informed enough to talk about the generation of ATP synthase. BUT can you compute P(T|H) for it? #12 Joe
We have done our work. We have found many biological structures that are irreducibly complex. All you do is deny and handwave the evidence away. And you do that without having anything to support the claims of your position. It’s as if you are oblivious to science and evidence.
What does this have to do with P(T|H)? How about you compute P(T|H) for something of your choice. That would be interesting. #13 Gordon
The onus is on the person trying to draw a conclusion from the calculation, and the ID’ers are the only ones trying to draw conclusions from CSI.
I quite agree. If ID proponents can't compute P(T|H) they have to do the work to figure it out.ellazimm
February 24, 2016
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Johnnyb: speaking in as an evolutionist, I agree that Dan's criticism is invalid. I also haven't read Dembski's 2005 paper in a long time, but I don't recall him ever treating M * N * Phi(T) * P(T|H) as a probability, just as an upper bound on a probability, and as an upper bound it works. (I do have some issues with the 2005 definition of CSI, but they're relatively minor -- on the level of accounting loopholes. Overall, I think that version is pretty good.) However, I have to disagree with you when you say "If the critics do not agree with the ID’ers probabilities, the onus is on them to supply reasonable numbers and defend them." The onus is on the person trying to draw a conclusion from the calculation, and the ID'ers are the only ones trying to draw conclusions from CSI. If an evolutionist were try to claim "the CSI here is less than one bit, and therefore evolution is a plausible explanation"(*), then you'd be right. But that's not what's being claimed; what's being claimed is that the CSI has not been shown to be more than one bit and that therefore we cannot draw any conclusion from the calculation. (* BTW, this hypothetical evolutionist argument would be wrong anyway, since a low CSI value does not necessarily rule out intelligent input. IIRC Dembski explicitly says that his method allows false negatives.) Essentially, any uncertainty in the calculation leads to uncertainty in the result; if you want a useful result, it's on you to reduce uncertainty in the calculation. P.S. I tried to comment on Dan's blog, but apparently blogger won't let me without setting up a Google+ public profile. Which I'd rather not do. Sorry...Gordon Davisson
February 24, 2016
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EZ Jerad:
And I think if ID wants to prove its case it will have to do the work itself.
We have done our work. We have found many biological structures that are irreducibly complex. All you do is deny and handwave the evidence away. And you do that without having anything to support the claims of your position. It's as if you are oblivious to science and evidence.Virgil Cain
February 24, 2016
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EZ Jerad:
And I think if ID wants to prove its case it will have to do the work itself.
Right and if IDists went into a lab and said that ATP synthase was out of the reach of necessity and chance evolutionists would believe us. :roll: Look, Jerad, your position makes the claim that ATP synthase arose via natural selection, drift and/ or neutral construction. It is up to you and yours to support that claim with something other than cowardly proclamations.Virgil Cain
February 24, 2016
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LoL! @ ellazimm/ Jerad:
Dr Dembski proposed a way to determine when complex specified information was found part of with was the conditional probability P(T|H). How can it be down to people who disagree that his formulation has any meaning to calculate part of his metric?
That was explained in the post that you quote-mined: P(T|H)- This is a conditional probability equation with the “H” referring to any and all known necessity and chance hypotheses, including natural selection, drift and neutral construction. That is why evolutionists have to provide it- well that and the fact they don’t have anything else like actual experiments. Address that. It isn't as if this hasn't all been explained to you many, many times.
Why would Dr Dembski propose something that depended on work by those opposed to him?
What work? That's the point there isn't any work just a bunch of proclamations. If they had some actual work then we could dispense with P(T|H) and stick with the results.
What if a biologist published a paper in Nature claiming that P(T|H) = 1, would you believe it?
It depends on the context and the science.Virgil Cain
February 24, 2016
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#8 johnnyb
I think his point was not that we just take someone’s word for it, but that someone needs to give a realistic number to it, and defend it. This is what has people running scared – no one wants to actually even attempt a number on this. ID’ers, using very generous assumptions, attempt calculations. If the critics do not agree with the ID’ers probabilities, the onus is on them to supply reasonable numbers and defend them.
Perhaps that is what he meant but we'll have to wait to see what he says. Regardless, I think expecting evolutionary biologists to help with something they find vacuous is not going to get you anywhere. You can't really expect someone whose work you are attacking to lift a finger in assistance. I don't believe anyone is 'running scared'. I think they just find the whole idea of specified complex information as a characteristic they have no need to invoke. And I think if ID wants to prove its case it will have to do the work itself.ellazimm
February 24, 2016
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ellazimm - I think his point was not that we just take someone's word for it, but that someone needs to give a realistic number to it, and defend it. This is what has people running scared - no one wants to actually even attempt a number on this. ID'ers, using very generous assumptions, attempt calculations. If the critics do not agree with the ID'ers probabilities, the onus is on them to supply reasonable numbers and defend them.johnnyb
February 24, 2016
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EZ, the simplest way forward is to go to the dual form per logging, which will instantly show that what is being measured is information beyond a threshold. Logically, a threshold of sufficient complexity in the context of esp. functional specificity, that it is maximally implausible that such can be acquired by blind watchmaker processes. Where, information in the case of things like strings is quite readily evaluated, and for functionally specific organisation can be estimated from the string of y/n q's to set up the description. That is, working with strings is WLOG. It is not hard to see that 500 bits is beyond the credible blind search capacity of the sol system, and 1,000 bits, than the capacity of the observed cosmos. This is equivalent to 72 or 143 ASCII characters of 7 bits each. A very modest quantum relative to the known info content commonly seen in D/RNA and proteins. This BTW is why, in a discussion with GP and PG interacting with the pseudonymous Mathgrrl, I set up simplified models based on thresholds of those sizes some 5 years ago; using a dummy variable to indicate observed functional specificity. Such models are amenable to the sort of work that has given estimates of information based on patterns in protein families. And, note, the issue is not really probabilities, it is search challenge and search resources. For those open to look, it is patent that the functionally specific complex organisation and associated information in the living cell and in life forms is well beyond any reasonable search capacity of the observed cosmos, 100 - 1,000 base pairs and 10 - 100+ mn. Life based on cells and its body plans point strongly to design as best explanation. Which is typically locked out by imposition of Lewontin's a priori evolutionary materialism. KF PS: Science is an in-common civilisational enterprise of knowledge advancement, sound investigations, their results and linked analyses are open for all. There is no right to exclude reasonable use of findings and analysis, and in fact the tendency to hoard data and results is an amber warning flag.kairosfocus
February 24, 2016
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#3 Virgil/Joe
Earth to Zachriel- P(T|H) needs to be determined by evolutionists and materialists. But they can’t because it seems they don’t even know where to start!
Dr Dembski proposed a way to determine when complex specified information was found part of with was the conditional probability P(T|H). How can it be down to people who disagree that his formulation has any meaning to calculate part of his metric? Why would Dr Dembski propose something that depended on work by those opposed to him? What if a biologist published a paper in Nature claiming that P(T|H) = 1, would you believe it? Also, you've gone on record saying that H = 0. Do you still say that?ellazimm
February 23, 2016
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Dan Eastwood is just confused...Virgil Cain
February 23, 2016
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Dan Eastwood apparently was confused by the way Dembski uses Chance Event.:
Edits: After re-reading the final example in the paper (page 23), Dembski shows how this number could be greater than 1. This is in direct contradiction to page 21, where he uses it as a probability. Dembski seems to be confused about his own creation. The point remains that he refers to this as a upper bound on the probability, when it is neither a probability nor an upper bound.
Me_Think
February 23, 2016
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