Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

BTB, Answering the “ID is Religion/Creationism in a cheap tuxedo” talking point

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For many years, atheistical objectors — often, taking a cue from ruthless advocacy groups such as the NCSE and/or ACLU etc — have been tempted to dismiss ID as “Religion” or “Creationism,” and this long since answered point still occasionally crops up here at UD.

(Unfortunately, even when it is not explicit, it is often an implicit rhetorical filter that warps understanding of what ID supporters, thinkers and scientists say; with an underlying insinuation of lying on our part. Which, for cause, I take very personally, as one who has repeatedly put life — when you deal with Communists . . . — and career on the line on matters of truth; for decades. Where, too, the very ease with which such objectors assume or project deception to us, should make them pause given the saying, “out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” Projection, in short, is an issue that should give such objectors pause.)

Currently, in the ID as Terrorism discussion thread, RVB8 has commented:

[RVB8, 34:] >>ID is an outlier of religion. It has religious antecedents, and is supported by religion. The very notion of a ‘designer’, implies a God.>>

This of course, is a subtler form of the same insinuation, but pivots on conflating religion with philosophy and on failing to understand the centrality of philosophical considerations to any serious discussion, Science, Mathematics, whatever. Issues of logic and its first principles, ethics (why do we find an urge to the truth and the right), epistemology, critical analysis of worldview options and possibilities of being, etc are after all at the root of all discussions. Where, we can see you one “God is a manifestation of religion,” and raise you that imposition of Lewontin’s a priori evolutionary materialism is an outpost of atheistical ideological domination of science, education, media, government, law and other key institutions in our civilisation.

Accordingly, it’s back to basics time and I responded at 35:

[KF, 35:] >>Pardon, but we have heard the atheistical, self-falsifying evolutionary materialistic agenda talking points many times before.

Until you can pass the Newton vera causa test of actually showing how, reliably, blind chance and mechanical necessity produces functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information per observation, it remains the case — on a trillion member base — that the only observed source of FSCO/I is design.

That is, intelligently directed configuration.

This is an empirical matter.

It is backed up by the fact that an analysis of blind search challenge in configuration spaces of scale 500 – 1,000+ bits on sol system or observed cosmos scope atomic resources are utterly unable to search more than a negligible fraction, thus are maximally implausible as a means of finding isolated islands of function.

Thus, FSCO/I is an empirically massively verified and analytically plausible strong sign of design as best causal explanation of origin of an entity exhibiting such a phenomenon. Similarly, complex, mutual adaptation of parts to yield function — fine tuning — is an aspect of FSCO/I, and it is often associated with irreducible complexity of function; whereby a core of component entities are mutually necessary and together sufficient for core function to emerge or to persist.

Also, codes, algorithms and associated execution or communication machinery are manifestations of a linguistically driven process, which is directly a sign of intelligence in action as posts in this thread demonstrate. (The case of D/RNA then becomes an obvious wake-up call . . . the first contact sign, credibly, has been detected, c 1953, in a molecular biology lab and was published in Nature. As Crick wrote to his son, March 19th in that year: “Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another) . . . “)

If you dispute such, simply produce cases of FSCO/I emerging by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, in actually observed point: ___________ .

I can save you a lot of fuss and bother, by pointing out that the simplest easiest way to get there is by computer based random text generation — and not targeted, informed search such as Dawkins’ Weasel — which has shown ability to get to about 20 – 24 ASCII characters in sense-making text, a factor of ~ 10^100 possibilities short of the 10^150 – 301 range that is the ID detection threshold.

The search challenge is real.

FSCO/I and related phenomena are strong, reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as cause.

It is time to move on to Robert Sheldon’s point, opening up a new, fresh world of insight from unfettered, uncensored science:

[ID] is about understanding the role of information in nature . . . . It isn’t just “detecting design in nature”, because that’s the easy part. It’s understanding design, understanding information in nature . . . . ID is taking us back to our roots–looking for purpose, looking for coherence, looking for meaning. Because the fundamental property of information is coherence, anti-entropy, function.

And, an honest examination of the above reasoning chain will show that it is patently empirical, inductive, analytical, scientific and clearly not religious in character.>>

Let’s see if RVB8 and/or other advocates of evolutionary materialism and/or its fellow travellers, have an answer (including to its inherent self-falsification along the lines long since pointed out by J B S Haldane). END

Comments
I dont think anyone can seriously claim that ID is religion.
Well they obviously DO make that claim.
I think that when people claim that ID is religion what they’re really saying is that their religious belief has severely biased their ability to interpret scientific knowledge.
Maybe but I'm certain there are Darwinists out there who honestly believe ID is a religion.
I think most people here would agree thats the case with YEC.
Unfortunately true.
All of the evidence indicates an old earth.
Not even close.
The only way someone comes to the young earth conclusion is by ignoring the evidence in favor of a particular interpretation of scripture.
You mean evidence like this, this, this...?Vy
November 1, 2016
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I think Silver Asiatic in #24 is on the right track when he/she writes:
2. Again even with naturalistic philosophy, the only demonstrable source for such information is intelligence. If Functional Complex Information can be produced by any other, non-intelligent source, then just demonstrate it. But that doesn’t happen. The best explanation is that intelligence is the only source, since it is the only known source. 3. Again, in purely secular terms, where there is intelligence as a cause of informational systems, there is Design-Purpose. Without purpose/design, there is no intelligence (freedom to choose options) but only physical determinism.
Perhaps there's a more concise way to state the case as a simple deductive argument. I'll use IA for "intelligent agent", and CSI for "complex, specified information". Premise 1: Any artifact that exhibits the feature of CSI must have an IA as the cause of the CSI. Premise 2: CSI is observed in biological systems Conclusion: An IA must be the cause of the CSI in those biological systems. Its a perfectly valid deductive argument in that if both premises are true, the conclusion naturally follows. The only way to refute it is to show either one or both premises to be false. And here's where things get interesting. There is no way to refute either premise except scientifically. No appeal to philosophy, metaphysics or theology is necessary or required to refute either premise. To refute premise one, all one need do is provide a case where undirected, unintelligent causes can account for any instance of observed CSI. To date, that has never been shown by anyone. Worse, there's not even a good model showing how undirected, unintelligent causes could produce CSI. To refute premise two, one would merely have to show that what is taken to be CSI in biological systems is actually not CSI, but something else. Again, that has never been done either. But the important point to be appreciated here (with respect to KF's point in the OP) is that this shows clearly that ID is indeed scientific as only science can refute the argument. No appeal to anything outside of normal science need be included in either the premises themselves or any attempted refutation. The real canard is saying ID isn't science. That's just sloppy thinking given what we actually know.DonaldM
November 1, 2016
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William Murray in #18
Most ID vs Naturalism debates start out with the naturalists assuming that the debate framework is (and must be), by default, naturalist, and that any other assumption must be argued/demonstrated/evidenced to their satisfaction. Otherwise, they philosophically mischaracterize the theistic perspective as “religious”, when it is in fact a philosophical metaphysic equitable in any debate with the assumption of naturalism. It is simply not “religious” in nature.
I completely agree with your point here. Somehow the debate always seems to begin with the default assumption that naturalism is true, so all arguments must be presented within that framework or else they are disqualified. My response to that in the past (and I've done this many times here at UD) is to ask the naturalists "how do you know scientifically (not philosophically, metaphysically or theologically) that the properties of the cosmos are such that it must be a completely closed system of natural cause and effect, and that no supernatural entities of any sort (if such exist) could effect any change or cause anything to happen in the cosmos? In well over 20 years of involvement with this debate, I have never once received anything close to a scientific answer that question. The real kicker is that the ID critics and the naturalists expect, nay demand that the theist admit their theistic bias while simultaneously claiming that their naturalistic bias isn't bias at all...its just the way things are. Except, we're still waiting for the scientific confirmation of that.DonaldM
November 1, 2016
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Bob O'H: ID is science, nothing else. ID is about the theory that a design process is the only possible origin of certain observable configurations. Right or wrong, this is a scientific statement about observables. Configurations are observables. Conscious designers, and design processes, are observables. Regularities that connect specific configurations to design processes are the basis of perfectly objective inferences about what we observe. Why should that be anything else than science? I have applied the concept of functional information to many examples, here. Again, I may be right or wrong, but I am amazed that you say: "I’ve never seen it been applied to any real example". Should I give you a list of my OPs about that? I have been posting comments and OPs here for years. You may have noticed that I almost never take part in any discussion that implies religion. That's a very precise choice. If ID is religion, what are my posts about?gpuccio
November 1, 2016
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Personally, I have always thought that ID as a scientific theory (at least for the present) was “a bridge too far.” However, “small letter id” as both an explanation of man’s existential situation and as an explanation for the metaphysical and scientific nature of the physical reality we observe around us, provides the best and most coherent foundation for a philosophical world view. For example, based on classical Big Bang cosmology, what is the best explanation for the origin of the universe? Theists have an answer (an eternally existing or self-existing transcendent mind); naturalists/materialists are in search of one. The same point can be made for the universes apparent fine-tuning. …the origin of life. …the origin of mind and consciousness. Now as a theist I will readily admit that I can’t answer how it happened, but neither can the naturalist. Of course, some naturalists I have interacted with on-line have argued that the theistic explanation is too simple. But why does an explanation need to be complicated? In my view all it needs to be is logically possible, coherent and plausible. If that is the only objection that they have then they don’t have much.john_a_designer
November 1, 2016
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As I see it, ID is an argument against naturalism, but it works entirely within a naturalistic/atheistic framework. In my view, ID was intended to say: 1. Even within a totally naturalistic framework, even with atheistic assumptions, what we understand as Functional Complex Information can be observed. No religion or theology is required to observe and admit this. 2. Again even with naturalistic philosophy, the only demonstrable source for such information is intelligence. If Functional Complex Information can be produced by any other, non-intelligent source, then just demonstrate it. But that doesn't happen. The best explanation is that intelligence is the only source, since it is the only known source. 3. Again, in purely secular terms, where there is intelligence as a cause of informational systems, there is Design-Purpose. Without purpose/design, there is no intelligence (freedom to choose options) but only physical determinism. At that point, materialistic/naturalistic determinism fails. However, at that point also, there remains a multitude of options, philosophically or theologically, that can be compatible with non-naturalism, non-materialism. Theism is not the only option, as I see it. But even so, I don't think ID as a science is empowered or capable of sorting through which non-materialist possibilities or which theological views are the correct ones. If ID is strictly a science program, then ID stops at the collapse of materialism. Philosophy and theology pick up the argument after - using the conclusions of ID science, yes. But ID really has little or nothing to say about the theological or philosophical analysis that follows. Attempting to reach theological conclusions puts ID outside of what we ordinarily call science. I know at the same time, some think that the study of God should be considered part of science, but is ID really required to make that change and convince the world of that?Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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Bob O'H
The problems come, I thin, when one tries to insert God as a causal explanation (“goddidit”). The problem there is that it seems impossible to test this hypothesis: if God is ineffable, then how do we know we have invoked God correctly? That question would seem to be theology, not science. Hence, if ID as “thinking God’s thoughts after him” means reconstructing what God did, then it surely is a part of religion.
Good thoughts and I fully agree. Yes, God cannot be directly evaluated by empirical science, for reasons you gave. This is a temptation that some IDists fall into at times, and I understand how. Our worldview is fully integrated and it's difficult to explain our scientific work (when speaking in a popular forum, for example) without a bigger picture. That can be religion, or as many have pointed out, it can be with atheism as the driving motive of science. But ID itself should not be defined as an understanding of God. It should not be necessary for people to have to believe in God, or have a specific theology, in order to investigate and accept ID research. But that requires very strict limits for ID. When people go over the limits (as I think Sheldon did) then they're justly open for attack on those grounds. That is, unless someone just wants to say that "ID is a religious program", and that's a different matter.Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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Bob O'H: the trillion member empirical base is all around us, indeed you just added to it. later. KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2016
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WJM, serious words, maybe you want to elaborate? KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2016
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Silver Asiatic @ 14 & 14 - thanks for those thoughts. The issue, I think, is over how close one's science and theology inform each other. I (and, I think, most scientists) have no problems with religion as a motivation to do science: to marvel at how God made the world, if you will. If that is what Rob Sheldon meant, then fair enough (although it does seem to imply that one still can't do ID if one does not believe in God). The problems come, I thin, when one tries to insert God as a causal explanation ("goddidit"). The problem there is that it seems impossible to test this hypothesis: if God is ineffable, then how do we know we have invoked God correctly? That question would seem to be theology, not science. Hence, if ID as "thinking God's thoughts after him" means reconstructing what God did, then it surely is a part of religion. As for FSCO/I, I've never seen it been applied to any real example, and to the extent it has any validity it just seems to be a calculation of the size of a state space. But even huge state spaces can be traversed to find optima (and evolution in the natural world isn't even about finding optima: it's just about finding something better). So I'm afraid I don't take the "trillion member empirical base" that seriously. Sorry.Bob O'H
November 1, 2016
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F/N: I should say RS was paraphrasing a Reformation era theme about science. In science, we think the Creator's rational, creative and providential/ sustaining thoughts after him. Hence, for instance, LAW of nature. beneath is a conviction that the Creator formed the world to be in key parts intelligible and even simple. All of these concepts are deeply embedded in our praxis. And this frame gave early scientists confidence that they could read God's book of nature. In our time the discovery of strong signs of design in the world of life points to design (but from the first Thaxton et al pointed out this does not equate to God by any means . . . yet another point that is routinely distorted for rhetorical reasons). Where the signs of design do point in theistic directions is the design of a fine tuned cosmos that is at a deeply isolated operating point for C-chem, aqueous medium, terrestrial planet, galactic habitable zone, life. That points to designer with power to effect a cosmos. Popping over the border into phil, the issues of being raise questions onthe roots of reality, pointing ultimately to a necessary being root of the world. Blend in our finding it necessary that we be responsibly and rationally free so also morally govetrned and ethical theism is best worldview level explanation. But that is beyond science. Within science, the core challenges of the meaning, utility and potential of information in the structure of nature and cells as self replicating automata are full of very interesting questions -- including for transformation of industrial civilisation through information, communication and control technologies using the mechatronics paradigm and beyond. And of course, fine tuning is likely to be one of the key issues in understanding our cosmos. KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2016
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Most ID vs Naturalism debates start out with the naturalists assuming that the debate framework is (and must be), by default, naturalist, and that any other assumption must be argued/demonstrated/evidenced to their satisfaction. Otherwise, they philosophically mischaracterize the theistic perspective as "religious", when it is in fact a philosophical metaphysic equitable in any debate with the assumption of naturalism. It is simply not "religious" in nature. This is, IMO, a fundamental problem that plagues any such debate. Anti-theistic naturalists often conflate theism with some particular religious sect or view and often pepper their arguments with Christian-specific objections or use polytheism or ridiculous imagined spaghetti gods to improperly characterize the theistic metaphysic as a religion. Until such debate participants can let go of their emotional commitments against particular religions and understand the concept of the theistic metaphysic properly, debates will continue to slide into motive-mongering, emotional rhetoric, and character assassination. The evidence and argument against naturalism is not simply compelling; it is both definitive and overwhelming. Naturalism cannot even a provide a basis for gathering evidence or making valid arguments, much less provide compelling reasons to consider it true much less provide even in-principle answers to trivially abundant forms of structured information and experience. As KF so often points out, it's a metaphysical self-destructing non-starter that few anti-theists have spent any time at all examining. They just think it must be true because it's the only alternative to Theism, which they have deep emotional commitments against out of ignorance.William J Murray
November 1, 2016
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I dont think anyone can seriously claim that ID is religion. Religion is a set of customs, rituals and practices along with dogmatic beliefs that aim to connect the believer with God ( or some supernatural realm) Obviously ID isnt that. I think that when people claim that ID is religion what they're really saying is that their religious belief has severely biased their ability to interpret scientific knowledge. I think most people here would agree thats the case with YEC. All of the evidence indicates an old earth. The only way someone comes to the young earth conclusion is by ignoring the evidence in favor of a particular interpretation of scripture.REW
November 1, 2016
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“I want to know God's thoughts - the rest are mere details.” - Albert Einstein On discovering the laws of planetary motion, Johann Kepler declared: ‘O God, I am thinking your thoughts after you!’ http://www.biblicalcreation.org.uk/introductory_articles/bcs104.html “Geometry is unique and eternal, a reflection from the mind of God. That mankind shares in it is because man is an image of God.” – Johannes Kepler "You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way .. the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the 'miracle' which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands." Albert Einstein - Letters to Solovine - New York, Philosophical Library, 1987 The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html Mathematics and Physics – A Happy Coincidence? – William Lane Craig – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF25AA4dgGg 1. If God did not exist the applicability of mathematics would be a happy coincidence. 2. The applicability of mathematics is not a happy coincidence. 3. Therefore, God exists. An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time…. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html "Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation." Alfred Russell Wallace, New Thoughts on Evolution, 1910 "Either mathematics is too big for the human mind, or the human mind is more than a machine." - Kurt Gödel As quoted in Topoi : The Categorial Analysis of Logic (1979) by Robert Goldblatt, p. 13 Cantor, Gödel, & Turing: Incompleteness of Mathematics - video (excerpted from BBC's 'Dangerous Knowledge' documentary) https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1119397401406525/?type=2&theater
bornagain77
November 1, 2016
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KF
If you have an effective answer to the trillion member empirical base that shows that say FSCO/I is an excellent sign of design as cause, we would long since have heard it instead of motive mongering.
Point well taken and I fully agree. Minus two points from the one I gave Bob O'H.Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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There are different flavors of ID and perhaps noted figures like Dr. Sheldon really do think it is a religious program, even Reformation Theology (as many claim it is), I don't know. Personally, I am totally ok with that as long as it is explicitly defined as such. I also think there is a more secular flavor of ID where a certain theological view is not required. It doesn't mean that's right or better. That's just the way I always understood ID from Dembski, Denton, Wells, Gonzalez, etc.Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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KF - thanks for that clarification. Perhaps we could understand Robert Sheldon's point as a theological analogy by way of comparison.
In the words of classical Reformation theology, it is “thinking God’s thoughts after Him”.
This is too direct, in my opinion, and mistaken. But perhaps he meant to (or should) say, "it is similar to what is done in theology where people recognize God's thoughts". To say that ID is an output of Reformation theology and is "thinking God's thoughts" makes ID a religious program, as I see it. I fully agree with BA's excellent commentary showing the theistic roots of science. But I don't think scientists need to have a specific (or any) theological belief system to accept the evidence and correctness of ID theory. It's just basic science. Am I right about that?Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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Bob O'H: Please read the OP, if you do so you will see the logic and empirical issues summarised. After these many years of objecting at UD, you should be instantly aware of these things. The point is, one can always motive monger away to rhetorical effect, but that is strictly irrelevant to the soundness of the underlying case. For instance, we could point to no end of cases showing what atheistical bias leads to, and even highlight the problem of so called methodological naturalism. The best solution is to address the merits, which I do in outline. If you have an effective answer to the trillion member empirical base that shows that say FSCO/I is an excellent sign of design as cause, we would long since have heard it instead of motive mongering. In short, this may be doubling down on a talking point that is irrelevant to the merits. KF PS: SA, there is a place for onward worldviews level discussion, but this is not the strict scientific focus. You will see that the difference between what B did and I did with Robert Sheldon's point, was I HIGHLIGHTED THE SCIENTIFIC ISSUES AT STAKE. And they are of great scientific import in an increasingly information driven era. Let me clip again, as the point may be easily lost in the back forth:
[RS:] >>[ID] is about understanding the role of information in nature . . . . It isn’t just “detecting design in nature”, because that’s the easy part. It’s understanding design, understanding information in nature . . . . ID is taking us back to our roots–looking for purpose, looking for coherence, looking for meaning. Because the fundamental property of information is coherence, anti-entropy, function >>
I think these are serious issues well worth actual examination rather than tired out rhetorical objections. I for one would start with the von Neumann kinematic self replicator as a model, comparing the cell and then also looking at something like Jakubowski's global village construction set idea and ponder industrial civ 2.0 and onwards sol system colonisation as lines of sci-tech inquiry.kairosfocus
November 1, 2016
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And following in Lakatos footsteps, Dr. Hunter has compiled a list of some of the major false predictions generated by evolutionary theory. False predictions that are fundamental to evolutionary theory, i.e. go to the ‘core’ of the theory, and falsify it from the inside out as it were using Lakatos's demarcation criteria.
Darwin's (failed) Predictions - Cornelius G. Hunter - 2015 This paper evaluates 23 fundamental (false) predictions of evolutionary theory from a wide range of different categories. The paper begins with a brief introduction to the nature of scientific predictions, and typical concerns evolutionists raise against investigating predictions of evolution. The paper next presents the individual predictions in seven categories: early evolution, evolutionary causes, molecular evolution, common descent, evolutionary phylogenies, evolutionary pathways, and behavior. Finally the conclusion summarizes these various predictions, their implications for evolution’s (in)capacity to explain phenomena, and how they bear on evolutionist’s claims about their theory. https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/home
And here is a broader overview of the many failed predictions of naturalism in general in regards to the major scientific discoveries that have now been revealed by modern science:
Theism compared to Materialism/Naturalism - a comparative overview of the major predictions of each philosophy – video https://youtu.be/QQ9iyCmPmz8
Verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
bornagain77
November 1, 2016
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And whereas Darwinian evolution has no known law of nature to appeal to so as to establish itself as a proper, testable, science, (in fact it almost directly contradicts entropy), Intelligent Design does not suffer from such a disconnect from physical reality. In other words, Intelligent Design can appeal directly to ‘the laws of conservation of information’ (Dembski, Marks, etc..) in order to establish itself as a proper, testable, and rigorous science.
Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence – June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search — unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with “natural evolution.” ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab’s website states, “The principal theme of the lab’s research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems.” So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski (mathematically) prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can’t prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can’t derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html
And since Intelligent Design is mathematically based on the ‘law of conservation of information’, that makes Intelligent Design testable and potentially falsifiable, and thus makes Intelligent Design, unlike Darwinism, a rigorous science instead of a unfalsifiable pseudo-science:
The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness – David L. Abel Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.” If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness The Origin of Information: How to Solve It – Perry Marshall Where did the information in DNA come from? This is one of the most important and valuable questions in the history of science. Cosmic Fingerprints has issued a challenge to the scientific community: “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.” “Information” is defined as digital communication between an encoder and a decoder, using agreed upon symbols. To date, no one has shown an example of a naturally occurring encoding / decoding system, i.e. one that has demonstrably come into existence without a designer. A private equity investment group is offering a technology prize for this discovery (up to 3 million dollars). We will financially reward and publicize the first person who can solve this;,,, To solve this problem is far more than an object of abstract religious or philosophical discussion. It would demonstrate a mechanism for producing coding systems, thus opening up new channels of scientific discovery. Such a find would have sweeping implications for Artificial Intelligence research. http://cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/ It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk
Of related note: In so far as Darwinian evolution is dependent on the premises of reductive materialism, and regardless of whether Darwinists ever personally accept the falsification or not, Darwinian evolution is now empirically falsified by advances in quantum biology:
Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video states, “,,and Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can’t build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn’t really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it.” At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video – youtube Molecular Biology – 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCs3WXHqOv8 The Scientific Method - Richard Feynman - video Quote: 'If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwY
Moreover, even if one tosses straight up empirical falsification out the window, and tries to use 'predictive power' as a demarcation for determining whether something is 'scientific' or not, (Imre Lakatos), then Darwinian evolution, even on that much looser demarcation criteria, fails to qualify as a science but is still more properly classified as a pseudo-science:
A Philosophical Question...Does Evolution have a Hard Core ? Some Concluding Food for Thought Excerpt: So basically, the demarcation problem is a fun game philosophers enjoy playing, but when they realize the implications regarding the theory of evolution, they quickly back off… http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/cosmos/philo/hardcore_pg.htm
Imre Lakatos, although he tipped toed around the failure of Darwinism to have a rigid demarcation criteria, he was brave enough to state that a good scientific theory will make successful predictions in science and a pseudo-scientific theory will generate ‘epicycle theories’ to cover up embarrassing failed predictions:
In his 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture 1[12] he (Lakatos) also claimed that “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific”. Almost 20 years after Lakatos's 1973 challenge to the scientificity of Darwin, in her 1991 The Ant and the Peacock, LSE lecturer and ex-colleague of Lakatos, Helena Cronin, attempted to establish that Darwinian theory was empirically scientific in respect of at least being supported by evidence of likeness in the diversity of life forms in the world, explained by descent with modification. She wrote that “our usual idea of corroboration as requiring the successful prediction of novel facts...Darwinian theory was not strong on temporally novel predictions.” ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos#Darwin.27s_theory “In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, , quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture Here’s That Algae Study That Decouples Phylogeny and Competition - June 17, 2014 Excerpt: "With each new absurdity another new complicated just-so story is woven into evolutionary theory. As Lakatos explained, some theories simply are not falsifiable. But as a result they sacrifice realism and parsimony." - Cornelius Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/06/heres-that-algae-study-that-decouples.html
bornagain77
November 1, 2016
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The primary reason why no scientist has been able to ‘quantify its dictums’ is because there are no known laws of nature for Darwinists to appeal to to base their math on. In other words, there is no known ‘law of evolution’, such as there is a ‘law of gravity’, within the physical universe for Darwinists to base their math on:
“It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. The Evolution of Ernst: Interview with Ernst Mayr - 2004 Excerpt: biology (Darwinian Evolution) differs from the physical sciences in that in the physical sciences, all theories, I don't know exceptions so I think it's probably a safe statement, all theories are based somehow or other on natural laws. In biology, as several other people have shown, and I totally agree with them, there are no natural laws in biology corresponding to the natural laws of the physical sciences. ,,, And so that's what I do in this book. I show that the theoretical basis, you might call it, or I prefer to call it the philosophy of biology, has a totally different basis than the theories of physics. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-evolution-of-ernst-in/ WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468
In fact, not only does Evolution not have any universal law to appeal to, to base its math on, as other overarching theories of science have, Entropy, a law with great mathematical explanatory power in science, almost directly contradicts Darwinian claims that increases in functional complexity can be easily had (Granville Sewell and Andy McIntosh):
The Common Sense Law of Physics Granville Sewell – March 2016 Excerpt: (The) "compensation" argument, used by every physics text which discusses evolution and the second law to dismiss the claim that what has happened on Earth may violate the more general statements of the second law, was the target of my article "Entropy, Evolution, and Open Systems," published in the proceedings of the 2011 Cornell meeting Biological Information: New Perspectives (BINP). In that article, I showed that the very equations of entropy change upon which this compensation argument is based actually support, on closer examination, the common sense conclusion that "if an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is isolated, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable." The fact that order can increase in an open system does not mean that computers can appear on a barren planet as long as the planet receives solar energy. Something must be entering our open system that makes the appearance of computers not extremely improbable, for example: computers. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/03/the_common_sens102725.html Why Tornados Running Backward do not Violate the Second Law - Granville Sewell - May 2012 - article with video Excerpt: So, how does the spontaneous rearrangement of matter on a rocky, barren, planet into human brains and spaceships and jet airplanes and nuclear power plants and libraries full of science texts and novels, and supercomputers running partial differential equation solving software , represent a less obvious or less spectacular violation of the second law—or at least of the fundamental natural principle behind this law—than tornados turning rubble into houses and cars? Can anyone even imagine a more spectacular violation? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-tornados-running-backward-do-not-violate-the-second-law/ Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems - Andy C. McIntosh professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds - 2013 Excerpt: ,,, information is in fact non-material and that the coded information systems (such as, but not restricted to the coding of DNA in all living systems) is not defined at all by the biochemistry or physics of the molecules used to store the data. Rather than matter and energy defining the information sitting on the polymers of life, this approach posits that the reverse is in fact the case. Information has its definition outside the matter and energy on which it sits, and furthermore constrains it to operate in a highly non-equilibrium thermodynamic environment. This proposal resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions, which despite the efforts from alternative paradigms has not given a satisfactory explanation of the way information in systems operates.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/9789814508728_0008
Moreover, empirical evidence itself tells us that "Genetic Entropy", the tendency of biological systems to drift towards decreasing complexity and decreasing information content, holds true as an overriding rule for biology over long periods of time.
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Can Purifying Natural Selection Preserve Biological Information? - May 2013 - Paul Gibson, John R. Baumgardner, Wesley H. Brewer, John C. Sanford In conclusion, numerical simulation shows that realistic levels of biological noise result in a high selection threshold. This results in the ongoing accumulation of low-impact deleterious mutations, with deleterious mutation count per individual increasing linearly over time. Even in very long experiments (more than 100,000 generations), slightly deleterious alleles accumulate steadily, causing eventual extinction. These findings provide independent validation of previous analytical and simulation studies [2–13]. Previous concerns about the problem of accumulation of nearly neutral mutations are strongly supported by our analysis. Indeed, when numerical simulations incorporate realistic levels of biological noise, our analyses indicate that the problem is much more severe than has been acknowledged, and that the large majority of deleterious mutations become invisible to the selection process.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0010 Genetic Entropy – references to several peer reviewed numerical simulations analyzing and falsifying all flavors of Darwinian evolution,, (via John Sanford and company) http://www.geneticentropy.org/#!properties/ctzx
bornagain77
November 1, 2016
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Bob O'H, if science can only be conducted minus all Theistic premises, then why is it that 'evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going'?
Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740 Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species - STEPHEN DILLEY Abstract This essay examines Darwin's positiva (or positive) use of theology in the first edition of the Origin of Species in three steps. First, the essay analyses the Origin's theological language about God's accessibility, honesty, methods of creating, relationship to natural laws and lack of responsibility for natural suffering; the essay contends that Darwin utilized positiva theology in order to help justify (and inform) descent with modification and to attack special creation. Second, the essay offers critical analysis of this theology, drawing in part on Darwin's mature ruminations to suggest that, from an epistemic point of view, the Origin's positiva theology manifests several internal tensions. Finally, the essay reflects on the relative epistemic importance of positiva theology in the Origin's overall case for evolution. The essay concludes that this theology served as a handmaiden and accomplice to Darwin's science. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=376799F09F9D3CC8C2E7500BACBFC75F.journals?aid=8499239&fileId=S000708741100032X
The reason why 'evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going' is because ALL of modern science, every disciple within modern science, especially including evolutionary biology itself, is dependent on basis Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and on the unique ability of our 'made in the image of God' mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility. i.e. “thinking God’s thoughts after Him”. Where Darwinian evolution goes completely off the rails, scientifically speaking, is that Darwinian evolution uses bad liberal Theology to try to deny the reality of God all the while forgetting that it, to even be considered 'science' in the first place. is absolutely dependent on basic Theistic premises about rational intelligibility of the universe and on the unique ability of our 'made in the image of God' mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility of the universe.
Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf
Moreover, if we cast aside those basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and the ability of our mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility, and try to use naturalism, i.e. methodological naturalism, as our basis for understanding the universe, and for practicing science, then everything within that atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination.
Darwinian evolution, and atheism/naturalism in general, are built entirely upon a framework of illusions and fantasy Excerpt: Thus, basically, without God, everything within the atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination. It would be hard to fathom a more unscientific worldview than Darwinian evolution and Atheistic materialism/naturalism in general have turned out to be. Scientists should definitely stick with the worldview that brought them to the dance! i.e Christianity! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q94y-QgZZGF0Q7HdcE-qdFcVGErhWxsVKP7GOmpKD6o/edit
To go bit further in my critique of evolutionary biology. If one tries to say that in order to be considered scientific all a theory really needs to do is to demonstrate an ability to potentially be falsified by experimentation, i.e. Popper, then evolutionary biology fails to qualify as a science on that score as well. There simply is no experiment, or empirical observation, that Darwinists will ever accept that has the potential to falsify their theory in their eyes.
"In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality." Karl Popper - The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” - Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003 Deeper into the Royal Society Evolution Paradigm Shift Meeting - 02/08/2016 Suzan Mazur: Peter Saunders in his interview comments to me said that neo-Darwinism is not a theory, it's a paradigm and the reason it's not a theory is that it's not falsifiable. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzan-mazur/john-dupre-interview-deep_b_9184812.html Peter Saunders is Co-Director, Institute of Science in Society, London; Emeritus professor of Applied Mathematics, King’s College London. Peter Saunders has been applying mathematics in biology for over 40 years, in microbiology and physiology as well as in development and evolution. He has been a critic of neo-Darwinism for almost as long.
The reason why Darwinian evolution is not falsifiable, as other overarching theories of science are, is that it has no rigid mathematical basis to test against in order to potentially falsify it:
Darwinians Try to Usurp Biomimetics Popularity - October 9, 2014 Excerpt: "it is remarkable, therefore, that formal mathematical, rather than verbal, proof of the fact that natural selection has an optimizing tendency was still lacking after a century and a half later.",,, More importantly, its proponents are still struggling, a century and a half after Darwin, to provide evidence and the mathematical formalism to demonstrate that random natural processes have the creative power that Darwin, Dawkins, and others claim it has. Everyone already knows that intelligent causes have such creative power. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/10/darwinians_try090231.html Evolution is Missing a Mathematical Formula Excerpt: Virtually all scientists acknowledge that mathematics is the real language of science. Every theory uses words to describe and postulate the theory, but the true test of a theory is numbers and mathematics. It is numbers and mathematical formulae that distinguish true science from hocus-pocus.,,, Every scientific theory that has been promoted to the status of being a scientific law has been quantified and/or embodied into one or more mathematical formulae that make accurate predictions. But no scientist has been able to derive any working formula from the Theory of Evolution and no one has been able to quantify its dictums. Millions of scientists have tried to quantify the Theory of Evolution and they have all failed to do so. http://darwinconspiracy.com/article_1_rev2.php
bornagain77
November 1, 2016
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[RVB8, 34:] >>ID is an outlier of religion. It has religious antecedents, and is supported by religion. The very notion of a ‘designer’, implies a God.>>
Atheism has religious antecedents, as does Darwin. And Darwin was very much supported by religion. If the notion of designer implies God, so does Design, and so does Rationality, Intelligence, Truth and Fine-Tuning. So those are all religious?Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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I'd give a point to Bob O'H here. Personally, I think it's a huge mistake to bring theology into ID, unless it is explicitly stated that the theology is an optional after-effect of ID thought. But then again, for some, ID may indeed be religion (or a theological view). There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but it basically kills the idea that ID is just science (which is my view of ID). There are many others who believe that science should include, necessarily, a theological framework. That's understandable. Christian and Islamic creationists, for example do that, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them, except that atheistic science labs, schools and journals won't give them any recognition (or employment). In my view, ID is an argument on the limits of science (Edge of Evolution) which points to the intelligence at the foundation of nature. Defining that boundary and giving evidence of what is beyond is fully within the scope of science and it can be done without any theology at all.Silver Asiatic
November 1, 2016
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kf - huh? Sorry, I haven't got a clue what you're driving at.Bob O'H
November 1, 2016
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Bob O'H: FIrst, kindly look at the empirical, inductive logical framework before indulging motive mongering. Later. KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2016
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Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint—and Mr [sic] Gish is but one of many to make it—the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today. ‘… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity
Vy
November 1, 2016
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If ID isn't religion then why when writing what ID is really about did Rob Sheldon write this:
That is what ID is about. It isn’t just “detecting design in nature”, because that’s the easy part. It’s understanding design, understanding information in nature. In the words of classical Reformation theology, it is “thinking God’s thoughts after Him”.
Bob O'H
November 1, 2016
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Back to basics, on the "ID is Creationism/Religion in a cheap tuxedo" talking point.kairosfocus
November 1, 2016
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