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Can a Darwinist consistently condemn a con man who couldn’t have done otherwise?

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Some readers will recall the case of the Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, former dean of the School of Social and Behavioral Sciences at Tilburg University, who was publicly exposed in 2011 for faking his data in several dozen published papers about human behavior that had made him famous – and who, after being caught, decided to publish a book about his con, detailing how and why he’d done it. Uncommon Descent ran a story about the case (see here), and another story about how it was exposed (see here), while James Barham discussed it at further length over on his blog, TheBestSchools.org, in an article entitled, More Scientists Behaving Badly. A story about the case appeared in The New York Times last week: The Mind of a Con Man, by Yudhijit Bhattacharjee.

The case has become something of an academic scandal, not merely because of the fraud perpetrated by Stapel, who doctored his data in at least 55 of his own papers, as well as 10 Ph.D. dissertations written by his students, but also because it cast the entire field of behavioral psychology into disrepute. In their final report on the case at the end of November 2011, the universities of Groningen and Tilburg found that “a general culture of careless, selective and uncritical handling of research and data” was what enabled Stapel’s fraud to go undetected for so long. While the report laid the blame for the fraud solely at Stapel’s feet and exonerated his students of any wrongdoing, it went on to blame Stapel’s peers, journal editors and reviewers of the field’s top journals for letting him get away with his fakery for a period of several years.

During his interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee for The New York Times, Stapel recalled his first fateful decision to doctor his research data, after a psychology experiment that went badly wrong:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

… It took a few hours of trial and error, spread out over a few days, to get the data just right.

He said he felt both terrible and relieved. The results were published in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in 2004. “I realized — hey, we can do this,” he told me.

Stapel also professed contrition for his past misdeeds in the interview, as he attempted to explain his motivations for committing academic fraud:

Right away Stapel expressed what sounded like heartfelt remorse for what he did to his students. “I have fallen from my throne — I am on the floor,” he said, waving at the ground. “I am in therapy every week. I hate myself.”…

Stapel did not deny that his deceit was driven by ambition. But it was more complicated than that, he told me. He insisted that he loved social psychology but had been frustrated by the messiness of experimental data, which rarely led to clear conclusions. His lifelong obsession with elegance and order, he said, led him to concoct sexy results that journals found attractive. “It was a quest for aesthetics, for beauty — instead of the truth,” he said. He described his behavior as an addiction that drove him to carry out acts of increasingly daring fraud, like a junkie seeking a bigger and better high.

For my part, I hope that Stapel is as sorry as he declared himself to be, in his interview, and I have no wish to accuse him of insincerity. God alone knows the true state of his mind; God alone can judge him. It seems, however, that many people have questioned the sincerity of Stapel’s apology, following his recent decision to publish a book (called Derailed) describing how he pulled off his con. Among the cynics is Professor Jerry Coyne, who, in a recent post (April 27, 2013) over at Why Evolution is True, wrote:

He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught…

Stapel gives a lot of excuses but his apologies sound lame…

I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel here. I think his students are also at fault: how can you put your name on a Ph.D. dissertation if you didn’t collect the data yourself?

…Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.

Coyne on why hard determinism entails that we are not morally responsible for our actions

What I find curious about Professor Coyne’s comments is that he blames Stapel for his actions, despite the fact that he is a “hard” determinist who denies the very notion of moral responsibility. In an article for The Chronicle Review entitled, You Don’t Have Free Will (March 18, 2012), Coyne spelt out with admirable lucidity the consequences of his deterministic philosophy:

So what are the consequences of realizing that physical determinism negates our ability to choose freely? Well, nihilism is not an option: We humans are so constituted, through evolution or otherwise, to believe that we can choose. What is seriously affected is our idea of moral responsibility, which should be discarded along with the idea of free will. If whether we act well or badly is predetermined rather than a real choice, then there is no moral responsibility — only actions that hurt or help others. That realization shouldn’t seriously change the way we punish or reward people, because we still need to protect society from criminals, and observing punishment or reward can alter the brains of others, acting as a deterrent or stimulus. What we should discard is the idea of punishment as retribution, which rests on the false notion that people can choose to do wrong.

In an exchange last year with “soft” determinist philosopher Russell Blackford, who thinks determinism is compatible with moral responsibility, Coyne discussed Blackford’s hypothetical case of a child who drowns in a pond while he stands by and does nothing to help the child. Are the child’s parents entitled to blame him, even if he insists that he couldn’t have done otherwise? Blackford certainly thought so: he argued that if he had wanted to, he could have saved the child, and for this reason, the parents’ anger against him would have been entirely justifiable, in this hypothetical scenario. Coyne pointed out (with perfect consistency) that if Blackford’s wants were determined by his genes and his environment, then there was no meaningful sense in which he could have done otherwise, and that therefore he was not to blame for his failure to save the child:

Yes, of course if you change the “desire-set” construed in that way, then your actions would have been different. But, Russell, your desire-set is fixed by your molecules: by your genes, physiology, and the determined environmental factors that impinge on them…

What it appears to boil down to … is whether or not the parents of the drowned child have a right to reproach Blackford for his dilatory and selfish behavior…

But in what sense are they “quite right” to complain that Russell didn’t save their child? They certainly feel aggrieved about this, for such feelings are evolved and powerful, but in my view Russell had no “moral responsibility” to save the child: he could only do what he did.

Coyne went on to add that the parents could express disapprobation at Blackford for his negligence in failing to save the child:

Yes, the parents could complain about what he didn’t do, and that, indeed, may affect not only Russell’s future behavior, making him more altruistic, but influence others to act more altruistically in the future. (Nobody — even pure determinists — deny that social approbation or disapprobation can influence people’s future behavior.)

But as Coyne explained in a follow-up response to Blackford (April 9, 2012), what made no sense, in his view, was their expressing moral indignation:

But he [Blackford] later argues that one can rightly blame someone for failing to save a drowning child. Note the word “rightly,” which assumes not just responsibility (which is okay with me, as blame changes future behavior, both of the “blamee” and onlookers), but moral responsibility. Russell certainly favors the idea of moral responsibility. But if he sees difficulty in understanding how one can be responsible for one’s own character (and he’s right: how could we be?), then whence the concept of moral responsibility?

To recap: Professor Coyne believes that we are not morally responsible for our actions, and that righteous indignation at people who engage in anti-social behavior is a misplaced emotion, which makes no sense as each of us is a biological automaton. We can express disapproval, and even “blame” people for their actions, if our aim is merely to prevent future recurrences of this behavior on the part of the individual concerned – or other individuals who might be inclined to imitate him. But what we cannot do, if we are consistent determinists, is express moral outrage at the offending individual.

Coyne’s inconsistency

Coyne’s latest comments in his recent post (April 27, 2012) on the scandal involving Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel thus appear to be totally at odds with his declared views on determinism and free will, as he vents his spleen on a respected academic who faked his research data. There is an undeniable tone of indignation in Coyne’s remarks about Stapel: “He seems to mistake explanation for apology, and I think his only regret is that he got caught,” and he adds: “I don’t blame the system nearly as much as I do Stapel… Yes, Stapel became depressed, but it seems more because he was found out, not because he committed fraud and ruined the careers of many of his students.”

Professor Coyne seems to be implying here that Stapel should have thought about how his acts of deceit would impinge on the lives of others, and that he deserves blame for not having done so. “Should have” implies “could have.” But if Stapel’s thoughts and desires are the product of his genes and his environment, then in what sense could he have done otherwise than what he did, and how can he be blamed (in any moral sense of the word) for failing to advert to the effects that his act would have on other people? On Coyne’s account, Stapel’s failure to think of the needs of others ultimately reflects either a failure in his upbringing or a flaw in his genome. He couldn’t help that, so why reproach him for it? I can see why Coyne would want to reprogram Stapel’s stunted psyche, but I cannot for the life of me understand how Coyne, as a hard determinist who denies moral responsibility, could complain about Stapel’s thoughtlessness in committing acts which “ruined the careers of many of his students.” If Stapel couldn’t have refrained from committing those acts, then it makes no sense to say that he shouldn’t have done them. All that Coyne can consistently say is that acts like Stapel’s shouldn’t happen, insofar as they harm the interests of others and of society as a whole. But that’s simply tantamount to saying that society should try to prevent such acts from occurring – which is quite different from saying that the perpetrators of such acts shouldn’t have done them.

Why Charles Darwin would not have blamed Stapel for his actions

Coyne’s inability to justify the feeling of moral indignation which we commonly experience reflects a failing, not only in his own deterministic philosophy, but of Darwinism in general. Few people are aware that Darwin was a thorough-going determinist who denied the notion of moral responsibility as far back as 1837, some 22 years before the publication of his Origin of Species.

In his Notebook C: Transmutation of species (2-7.1838), Darwin espoused a mechanistic account of the human mind. The mis-spellings and grammar and punctuation errors are Darwin’s:

Thought (or desires more properly) being heredetary.- it is difficult to imagine it anything but structure of brain heredetary,. – analogy points out to this.- love of the deity effect of organization. oh you Materialist!

Why is thought, being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity a property of matter? – It is our arrogance, it our admiration of ourselves. (Paragraph 166)

In his Notebook M [Metaphysics on morals and speculations on expression (1838) CUL-DAR125], which was marked “Private”, Darwin recorded his decision not to go public with his materialism. He resolved:

To avoid stating how far, I believe, in Materialism, say only that emotions, instincts degrees of talent, which are heredetary are so because brain of child resembles parent stock. (Paragraph 57)

In addition to being a materialist, Darwin was also a consistent determinist. In his other metaphysical writings from that period (c. 1837), Darwin made it clear that he did not really regard human beings as morally responsible for their good or bad choices. He also held that criminals should be punished solely in order to deter others who might break the law:

(a) one well feels how many actions are not determined by what is called free will, but by strong invariable passions — when these passions weak, opposed & complicated one calls them free will — the chance of mechanical phenomena.— (mem: M. Le Comte one of philosophy, & savage calling laws of nature chance)…

The general delusion about free will obvious.— because man has power of action, & he can seldom analyse his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, & therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none.

Effects.— One must view a wrecked man like a sickly one — We cannot help loathing a diseased offensive object, so we view wickedness.— it would however be more proper to pity them [than] to hate & be disgusted with them. Yet it is right to punish criminals; but solely to deter others.— It is not more strange that there should be necessary wickedness than disease.

This view should teach one profound humility, one deserves no credit for anything. (yet one takes it for beauty & good temper), nor ought one to blame others.

(See Darwin’s Old and USELESS Notes about the moral sense & some metaphysical points written about the year 1837 & earlier, pp. 25-27. For original transcription, see Paul Barrett, et al., Charles Darwin’s Notebooks, 1836-1844, New York: Cornell University Press, 1987, p. 608.)

A true disciple of Darwin, then, would find it impossible to blame Diederik Stapel for his acts of academic fraud. On Darwin’s view, a man like Stapel is simply “a diseased offensive object,” whom we should pity rather than blame – even if we feel the need to punish him, in order to deter others from imitating his example.

While he may have concealed his philosophical views from the public at large, Darwin was scrupulously honest in his scientific research. He believed that science is a quest for Truth with a capital T, and he also believed in carefully setting forth the objections to a theory before proceeding to refute them. On this point, his views diverged sharply from the recently expressed views of Dutch psychologist Diederik Stapel, who revealed in his New York Times interview with Yudhijit Bhattacharjee that it was his purely pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled him to rationalize his deed:

Several times in our conversation, Stapel alluded to having a fuzzy, postmodernist relationship with the truth, which he agreed served as a convenient fog for his wrongdoings. “It’s hard to know the truth,” he said. “When somebody says, ‘I love you,’ how do I know what it really means?” At the time, the Netherlands would soon be celebrating the arrival of St. Nicholas, and the younger of his two daughters sat down by the fireplace to sing a traditional Dutch song welcoming St. Nick. Stapel remarked to me that children her age, which was 10, knew that St. Nick wasn’t really going to come down the chimney. “But they like to believe it anyway, because it assures them of presents,” he told me with a wink.

Apparently Stapel defines truth as “whatever works.” And it was this pragmatic notion of “truth” that enabled Stapel to rationalize his original act of academic fraud, as he acknowledged in his interview:

The experiment — and others like it — didn’t give Stapel the desired results, he said. He had the choice of abandoning the work or redoing the experiment. But he had already spent a lot of time on the research and was convinced his hypothesis was valid. “I said — you know what, I am going to create the data set,” he told me.

The Darwinist conception of truth

What Stapel did raises an important ethical question, however: is there a fundamental contradiction between Darwin’s conception of truth with a capital T and Stapel’s pragmatic notion of truth? In particular, can a Darwinist consistently condemn falsifying research data, or for that matter, concocting bogus arguments, in order to persuade people that Darwinian evolution is true? I am not asking here whether Charles Darwin would have approved of such acts of deceit; I think we can all agree that he would have condemned them unequivocally. The question I am asking is whether Darwin’s philosophical worldview could legitimize deceit (the telling of small untruths) in the service of a “higher truth.” And I think the answer is “yes.” My grounds for this conclusion have to do with the nature of truth itself, as Darwinism (and more generally, scientific naturalism) conceives it.

Darwinism is wedded to a notion of methodological naturalism, which Darwin originally espoused because he believed that the only good scientific explanation is one which explains everything in terms of physical laws, which enable scientists to predict effects from causes, in a deterministic fashion. Darwin set out the conditions that he believed a good scientific explanation must satisfy in a short essay which he jotted down while he was reading selected passages from Dr. John MacCullough’s book, Proofs and Illustrations of the Attributes of God (London, James Duncan, Paternoster Row, 1837). For those who are interested, here’s the reference: Darwin, C. R. ‘Macculloch. Attrib of Deity’ [Essay on Theology and Natural Selection] (1838). CUL-DAR71.53-59. Viewers can read it here at Darwin Online.) Darwin’s essay contains a telling passage in section 5, which succinctly summarizes why Darwin believed that appeals to “the will of God” explained nothing:

N.B. The explanation of types of structure in classes — as resulting from the will of the deity, to create animals on certain plans, — is no explanation — it has not the character of a physical law /& is therefore utterly useless.— it foretells nothing/ because we know nothing of the will of the Deity, how it acts & whether constant or inconstant like that of man.— the cause given we know not the effect.

Darwinism’s implications for ethical truth

What, the reader will ask, does this have to do with the moral legitimacy of lying in the cause of science? The implication follows once we realize that on a naturalistic worldview, there can be no autonomous domain of objective ethical truths. Ethical principles are simply rules which allow us all to get along. Few Darwinists have articulated this point more perceptively than Professor Jerry Coyne. As he put it in a post entitled, Uncle Eric on scientism (December 12, 2012) in response to fellow atheist Eric Macdonald, Coyne took issue with Macdonald’s expressed belief that there are some actions which are objectively wrong. Coyne answered that while he also condemned certain barbaric actions as wrong, he could do so only in a subjective sense:

Now I agree, of course, that throwing acid in the face of Afghan schoolgirls for trying to learn is wrong. But it is not an “objective” moral wrong — that is, you cannot deduce it from mere observation, not without adding some reasons why you think it’s wrong. And those reasons are based on opinions. In this case, the “opinion” is that it’s wrong to hurt anyone for trying to go to school. In other words, Eric claims that moral dicta are objective ones, on the par with the “knowledge” of science.

But such dicta are not “truths,” but “guides for living”. And some people, like the odious Taliban who perpetuate these crimes, do disagree. How do you prove, objectively, that they’re wrong? You need to bring in other subjective criteria.

The problem with “objective” moral truths is much clearer in less clear-cut cases. Is it objectively true that abortion is wrong, or that a moral society must give everyone health care? You can’t ascertain these “truths” by observation; you deduce them from some general principles of right and wrong that are, at bottom, opinion. (Of course, some opinions are more well-founded than others, and that’s what philosophy is good for.)

In other words, Eric is committing here the very sin he decried (as I recall) in Sam Harris’s book The Moral Landscape: he is saying that there are scientifically establishable truths about ethics. And if that’s true, then let Eric tell us what those truths are — without first defining, based on his taste, what is “moral” and “immoral.” Let him give us a list of all the behaviors he considers objectively immoral.

Now, I maintain that there is no objective morality: that morality is a guide for how people should get along in society, and that what is “moral” comports in general with the rules we need to live by in a harmonious society — one with greater “well being,” as Harris puts it. A society in which half the inhabitants are dispossessed because they lack a Y chromosome is not a society brimming with well being, and I wouldn’t want to live in it. And yes, what promotes “well being” can in principle be established empirically. But that still presumes that the best society is one that promotes the greatest “well being,” and that is an opinion, not a fact.

Could a consistent Darwinist morally condemn deceit in the cause of Darwinism?

Which brings us to the question: Is a society which indoctrinates children with deceptively simple or fallacious arguments for Darwinism (say, arguments of the kind described in Dr. Jonathan Wells’ Icons of Evolution) doing a bad thing? On Coyne’s logic, a Darwinist cannot consistently condemn such behavior. Here’s why.

If you are totally convinced that:

(i) truth is a scientific notion;
(ii) truth can only ascertained by either logic or observation;
(iii) Darwinism is objectively true in a scientific sense of the term; and
(iv) a society which recognizes the reality of Darwinian evolution, is “better” – or at least, works better – than one that doesn’t,

then it seems to me that the logic of engaging in deceptive persuasion, in the cause of Darwinism, is inescapable.

I am not referring here to a scientist publishing data which could impede future scientific research, or that would be liable to be exposed, bringing science itself into disrepute. Let’s suppose instead that the deception is more subtle: say, a published study that serves to “refute” a popular scientific objection to Darwinism (e.g. is there enough time available for evolution?), and make creationists or Intelligent Design proponents look silly; or for that matter, continuing to publish, in children’s science textbooks, an old argument for Darwinism that’s been trotted out for decades (e.g. Haeckel’s embryo drawings) but which scientists now know to be false. If you passionately believed in the truth of Darwinism, and if your notion of truth were a naturalistic one, then I do not see how you could morally condemn such actions.

And I haven’t even mentioned the propaganda for the materialistic view of mind that pervades high school and university science textbooks. When was the last time you saw one that gave a fair hearing to scientific arguments for dualism, or exposed the fallacies (which I have written about here) in “scientific” claims that free will is an illusion? And when was the last time that students were exposed to rebuttals of fallacious arguments for materialism – despite the fact that even materialist philosophers such as William Lycan have acknowledged that there are no good arguments for materialism? Once you accept materialism, of course, then Darwinism becomes a much easier pill to swallow.

But it is materialism itself – a fundamentally false notion that clouds one’s entire view of the world – which is the ultimate deception. The story of Santa Claus pales in comparison.

P.S. For those readers who may have been wondering what I’ve been doing for the past month or so, I should explain that I’ve been working on a reply to a recent online essay on humans and animals, that’s somehow turned into a 30-chapter book! My apologies for the long delay. My book should be ready in a week or two.

Comments
The issue on the table is whether or not an individual can choose to change his beliefs. You argued that it is not possible. In response, I pointed to millions of people who did, indeed, choose to change their beliefs about the morality of artificial birth control. RDFish
In order to support your claim, you would need to hear from these people just how their beliefs changed.
How they changed their beliefs is a separate and irrelevant question, given the fact that they did, in fact, change their beliefs and that they chose to make that change. My claim is supported by the historical fact that they did, indeed, choose to change their belief, which is the very thing that you claim cannot happen.
If they said “I decided I to believe that artificial birth control was moral rather than immoral, and upon making that decision, my belief changed”, then I would tend to agree with you.
If they decided to change their belief, then their belief obviously changed with the decision.StephenB
May 3, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
The issue on the table is whether or not an individual can choose to change his beliefs. You argued that it is not possible. In response, I pointed to millions of people who did, indeed, choose to change their beliefs about the morality of artificial birth control.
In order to support your claim, you would need to hear from these people just how their beliefs changed. If they said "I decided I to believe that artificial birth control was moral rather than immoral, and upon making that decision, my belief changed", then I would tend to agree with you. However, I suspect that is not at all how these people experienced their change of mind, nor would it be how they describe it. Instead, they would almost certainly provide a set of reasons - beliefs that they held and desires that they felt - which they believe justified that artificial birth control is moral after all (it doesn't hurt anybody, they really want to have lots of sex, they should be able to have sex without making more babies, and so on). In that case, I would argue that their choice was based on a set of desires and beliefs that they did not consciously choose to hold, and that these beliefs were based upon their experience (e.g. because they experienced sex as being really fun) or upon things they heard from other people (perhaps secularists persuaded them that artificial birth control didn't hurt anybody).
Do we now agree that it is possible for an individual to choose to change his beliefs and that my example confirms the point? If so, then the issue is resolved.
No, Stephen. Respectfully, I think that our discussion has revealed some level of confusion in your model of how decisions are made. In my previous post to you, I responded to your comment thus:
RDF: In that case, is there anything that our will takes into consideration, besides the things we believe and desire, when it makes a choice? What might that be? StephenB: What should I believe? What should I desire? What should I decide? What is good for me? What is good for others? RDF: But of course the answers to these questions are themselves beliefs.
What I see you doing is assigning our decision-making ability to something you are calling a "will", and then describing the will as though it was a person or agent - an homunculus. But homunculi theories don't succeed at illuminating decision-making any more than they help us to understand perception. In this case, you say that the will uses beliefs (such as those regarding what is good for you or for other people) in order to come up with decisions. But this doesn't help you to negate the conclusion that we base our decisions on beliefs that we do not consciously choose. On the contrary: Whether you attribute the decision-making to the will or to the person, you've conceded that beliefs are the basis of our (rational) decisions. Since I believe we can easily confirm that beliefs are not under our conscious control simply by introspection, it would appear that it is my viewpoint that has been confirmed.
I am well aware of the many different versions of free will, most of which are attempts to manipulate words and phrases in an attempt to reconcile it with determinism. I define free will as libertarian free will. Do you accept libertarian free will?
I'm sure you're aware that even libertarianism comes in quite a few very different flavors, and if you put five different libertarians in a room and asked about ontology or interaction or antecedent cause or control or compatibilism or... you'd get ten different answers ;-). Given the plurality of views and sub-views in this and other areas of metaphysics, and given how long people have been at it, I find debating metaphysics never really seems to get anywhere. Still, I do not wish to appear evasive, so I will give it an earnest, if brief, try. In terms of ontology, I hold that physicalism/materialism is philosophically underspecified because it has not coherently incorporated results from modern physics (in particular the denial of local realism). And it is clear that phenomenology can never be reduced to objectively described mechanism. But it also seems to me that dualist interactionist solutions to libertarianism are unattractive because positing an ontologically distinct class of causeless cause not only encounters the interaction problem and denial of event-causation but also serious issues with parsimony and ad hocism. In general, I lean toward re-conceptualizing both agency and cause itself in a way that makes it compatible with physics. I'm sympathetic to David Chalmers' ideas regarding the development of a property-dualistic framework based on a new understanding of supervenience. Chalmers also provides an analogy that expresses my overarching view very well. To paraphrase: Trying to explain mental causation with our current conceptions of mind, material, and causation is like trying to explain electrical phenomena based on Newtonian mechanics before the advent of Maxwell's equations (or, now, quantum electrodynamics). It's clear that something is going on that transcends our current understanding of physical reality, but it just doesn't help much to describe something simply in terms of its effects and provide no characterization other than it is uncaused and irreducible and somehow accomplishes the phenomena in question. Some day we may be able to say something more about how mental causation fundamentally proceeds, but for now we just can't. I suspect you'll be disappointed at my answer, since I can't give you a yes/no reponse to such a complicated question. But those are my sincere thoughts on the matter. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Are you sure you can formulate a truly irrational choice given your position? How could you argue against a position that you’ve defined things such that all choices are rational choices.
I've read this three times now and still don't get what you're saying. I'm sorry.
RDF: Well, that’s the point: If choices are irrational, then there is no accounting for them! I do not know how minds work, so I can’t give you a mechanism that explains how these decisions actually get made, but by definition we can’t explain irrational decisions by giving reasons for them. P: I’m not asking for a reason. I’m asking for a cause. In a strictly cause-and-effect world, every effect has a cause. So either irrational decisions are uncaused, or they have a cause outside beliefs and desires. What is that cause? It makes no sense to appeal to ignorance about how the mind works at this point when we’ve been talking all along about how the mind works. It also makes little sense to say that you don’t want to get into metaphysics, when most of those you are conversing with would say we’ve been neck-deep in metaphysics for the past 90 posts. After all, the refusal to get into metaphysics assumes we’ve only been talking about physics, which may be the primary point of departure in our discussion in the first place.
Here is what I know through introspection: 1) I know what it is to experience conscious awareness, and what it is to make a consciously deliberated decision. 2) I know that I can choose to act one way or another by means of consciously deliberated decision. 3) I know what it is to experience a desire. 4) I know what it is to hold a particular belief about something 5) I know that I cannot change my beliefs and desires by means of consciously deliberated decisions If you'd like to consider these claims to be metaphysical, be my guest. I don't, but I don't think that matters. I proceed from these facts and inductively infer that other people are likewise incapable of changing their beliefs and desires by means of consciously deliberated decisions. Finally, I observe that either our choices are based on our beliefs and desires or they are not. Unless someone can propose what else we might base our choices on, I conclude that we either base our choices on factors we do not choose or we base our choices on nothing at all. Now, I would not say (and have not said) that beliefs and desires cause our rational decisions. I have said what I mean by "rational decisions" is that they follow from our beliefs and desires, or that they are entailed by them, or that they are based upon them or compelled by them. Frankly, I would say I need to be more precise with my language here, so I'll pick a single word that means just what I mean: I will use the verb "predicate"
predicate(v.tr.) To base, found, or establish: I predicated my argument on the facts.
To say one predicated an argument on the facts does not imply that the argument is expressed in a formal system (e.g. formal logic or mathematics) and that the conclusion follows ineluctably from the facts. However, it does mean that the conclusion is consistent with the facts, and that given the facts, the conclusion can be seen by reason to follow. I fear you will still accuse me of evading your question: What causes us to choose the doughnut instead of the broccoli?!? I have enjoyed our discussion and hate to disappoint, but I simply do not know how to answer your question, because I do not know how minds work. I don't know how we make rational decisions, nor how we make irrational decisions, nor how we add two numbers, or design a machine, or figure out that the photons hitting my retinas just bounced off the face of my grandmother. I'm certain that nobody else understands how we accomplish these things either (all of the fascinating results of cognitive science notwithstanding). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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RDFish
I assure you I have been as clear as I possibly can be on the matter. As anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the problem of free will knows, there are plenty of different varieties of “free will” that people believe (or disbelieve) in, so one can’t simply say yes or no to the question and be understood.
I am well aware of the many different versions of free will, most of which are attempts to manipulate words and phrases in an attempt to reconcile it with determinism. I define free will as libertarian free will. Do you accept libertarian free will?StephenB
May 2, 2013
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RDFish
With regard to people’s beliefs about birth control changing over time, I was simply observing that you related this to pressure from secularists. I did not say the secularists were responsible for this change, or that they caused this change; rather, I echoed that the secularists persuaded people to change their views. I really was just paraphrasing your account of how this happened (I was treating “persuading” and “pressuring” as synonyms here).
The issue on the table is whether or not an individual can choose to change his beliefs. You argued that it is not possible. In response, I pointed to millions of people who did, indeed, choose to change their beliefs about the morality of artificial birth control. We both agree that outside pressures (or persuaders) were not the cause of the changed belief. My reference to those pressures was simply an incidental description of the historical circumstances, so there is no reason to re-introduce it back into the discussion. If my comments about the distinction between intellect and will are not helpful, then we can dispense with that topic as well. So, lets' return to our theme: Do we now agree that it is possible for an individual to choose to change his beliefs and that my example confirms the point? If so, then the issue is resolved.StephenB
May 2, 2013
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Hi RDFIsh, Since I am still curious about this... Are you sure you can formulate a truly irrational choice given your position? How could you argue against a position that you've defined things such that all choices are rational choices.
Well, that’s the point: If choices are irrational, then there is no accounting for them! I do not know how minds work, so I can’t give you a mechanism that explains how these decisions actually get made, but by definition we can’t explain irrational decisions by giving reasons for them
I'm not asking for a reason. I'm asking for a cause. In a strictly cause-and-effect world, every effect has a cause. So either irrational decisions are uncaused, or they have a cause outside beliefs and desires. What is that cause? It makes no sense to appeal to ignorance about how the mind works at this point when we've been talking all along about how the mind works. It also makes little sense to say that you don't want to get into metaphysics, when most of those you are conversing with would say we've been neck-deep in metaphysics for the past 90 posts. ;) After all, the refusal to get into metaphysics assumes we've only been talking about physics, which may be the primary point of departure in our discussion in the first place.Phinehas
May 2, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
I think there is a big difference between “caused by” and “influenced by.” I believe there are a lot of things that can influence our decisions, but only one thing that can cause them, and that is our own volition. (Others have pointed out some of the challenges in believing otherwise.)
I believe that our minds are the cause of our decisions. The various components of ourselves that we give names to - our intellect, our will, our instinct, our nature, our personality, our character - these are not actually things, in my view, but rather they are constructs that use for the benefit of our understanding. I think it is perfectly meaningful to talk about whether or not this or that is the result of conscious deliberation (which is what I have been meaning when I speak of volitional choice), but to say that volition is a cause per se - rather than an aspect of ourselves - is a reification error in my opinion. I understand others may disagree (i.e. dualists), and I don't want to get into metaphysics, so if you disagree we'll just agree to disagree on this.
I don’t think that the decisions we make are solely a matter of summing the strength of various beliefs and desires and picking a winner. I don’t think that our volition could be replaced by a sophisticated hill-climbing algorithm scaling to some peak formed by an amalgamation of beliefs and desires.
I agree (and have said here several times) that I don't think minds can be formalized in this way. But just because choices do not arise algorithmically from beliefs and desires does not mean that they are not based on them. Again - what else might they be based on? If you say that "volition causes decisions", do you insist that it does so without considering beliefs or desires, or do you think it causes decisions on other things besides beliefs and desires?
It seems to me that, given your admission that we have the ability to make irrational choices, you might want to agree with some of the above. I’m curious to know: What do you believe to be the origin these irrational choices?
Well, that's the point: If choices are irrational, then there is no accounting for them! I do not know how minds work, so I can't give you a mechanism that explains how these decisions actually get made, but by definition we can't explain irrational decisions by giving reasons for them.
Have you considered that, even in your coin-flipping example, it could be argued that you are choosing based on your desire to flip a coin?
If it is really a felt desire, then like all other desires it would be something we experience unbidden and not something we consciously chose! If I really desired to flip a coin, I could not simply desire not to flip a coin simply by deciding it.
People try to provide justifications or rationalizations for their actions all the time in an effort to avoid the conclusion that, “I did it!”
In my view, we are always responsible for our actions, even if we are under the influence of drugs or disease or stress or twinkies or bad parenting or peer pressure or anything else. Justifications don't alleviate responsibility.
I don’t really see it as pessimistic to believe that I am better understood as my choices than as the result of a long series of cause-and-effect leading inevitably to my current beliefs and desires.
I would say our best understanding is that our choices result from consciously deliberating over our beliefs and desires, but our beliefs and desires themselves are not chosen in this way. We can't explain the way we come to a decision except for our subjective experience of the process and the verbal justifications we report to ourselves and others. Thus, either our decisions are reasoned in a way we can understand them (and yes, I've been referring to these as 'rational' decisions), or they are not reasoned in any way we can understand (which I've called 'irrational'). To the extent they can be explained and justified, they are based on factors that are beyond our conscious control. I've really done my best to listen and respond to all criticisms of this idea, but at this point I'm not sure I can make my point any clearer. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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I guess what you’re saying is that our decisions are opaque, inexplicable things that do not derive from what we know, what we believe, what we value and desire, or anything else...
Not quite. I think there is a big difference between "caused by" and "influenced by." I believe there are a lot of things that can influence our decisions, but only one thing that can cause them, and that is our own volition. (Others have pointed out some of the challenges in believing otherwise.) I don't think that the decisions we make are solely a matter of summing the strength of various beliefs and desires and picking a winner. I don't think that our volition could be replaced by a sophisticated hill-climbing algorithm scaling to some peak formed by an amalgamation of beliefs and desires. It seems to me that, given your admission that we have the ability to make irrational choices, you might want to agree with some of the above. I'm curious to know: What do you believe to be the origin these irrational choices? Have you considered that, even in your coin-flipping example, it could be argued that you are choosing based on your desire to flip a coin? Are you sure you can formulate a truly irrational choice given your position?
That’s ok, but it’s a bit pessimistic I’d say; I guess I just hoped that at least sometimes people can actually provide some sort of justification for their actions besides “My will made me do it!”
People try to provide justifications or rationalizations for their actions all the time in an effort to avoid the conclusion that, "I did it!" We usually label these folks irresponsible. ;) I don't really see it as pessimistic to believe that I am better understood as my choices than as the result of a long series of cause-and-effect leading inevitably to my current beliefs and desires.Phinehas
May 2, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
No doubt all those elements [experiences, beliefs, desires] contribute to the environment in which the decision is made, but that is not the issue. The issue is this: Who, if anyone, is responsible for that decision.
If that is the issue you are focussing on, I would think we agree: Everyone is responsible for their own decisions. The issue I was discussing was not that, but rather under what conditions our choices could be seen as being determined by our conscious, willful decision-making.
Recall that you originally argued that no one has the power to change his beliefs.
Well, if you review my statements, you'll see I have always said that nobody has the power to change his beliefs by an act of conscious willful choice. People can change their beliefs by other (unpredictable) ways - by exposing themselves to new influences, by taking drugs, by sustaining brain damage or neural stimulation, and so on.
Against that assertion, I pointed out that millions of people chose to change their belief about the morality of artificial birth control. You responded by saying that the people who made that change were not responsible for their decision,...
First, let me be clear that I believe that everybody is responsible for their own actions. In fact, the very first thing I wrote in this entire thread, @2:
RDF: Coyne’s denial of moral responsibility is completely wrongheaded – of course we are responsible for our actions! Of course people choose their actions, and – if they are not coerced by someone else – those choices are free.
With regard to people's beliefs about birth control changing over time, I was simply observing that you related this to pressure from secularists. I did not say the secularists were responsible for this change, or that they caused this change; rather, I echoed that the secularists persuaded people to change their views. I really was just paraphrasing your account of how this happened (I was treating "persuading" and "pressuring" as synonyms here).
...claiming that outside pressures were the cause, in effect, denying free will.
Again, you've mischaracterized my comments. I was agreeing with you, for the sake of argument, that people were pressured (or persuaded or influenced) to change their minds. But of course people often resist pressure (i.e. resist persuasion or influence), so I would not equate this with a deterministic cause.
I pointed out that neither outside pressures or internal temptations are responsible for our moral choices or our changed beliefs. Our will is free to resist or override those external pressures and internal temptations.
Yes, we agree on this. You just misread my comments.
If you don’t believe in freedom of the will, please just say so and we can be done with it.
I assure you I have been as clear as I possibly can be on the matter. As anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the problem of free will knows, there are plenty of different varieties of "free will" that people believe (or disbelieve) in, so one can't simply say yes or no to the question and be understood. As I've said from the outset, I believe that our actions are freely chosen, and that we are each morally responsible for our own actions, even in circumstances where we have been affected by disease, abuse, drugs, or other factors.
The intellect asks, “What do I know? The will asks, “What do I love?”
You characterize intellect and will as things that can ask questions, like a person or an agent. I believe you are being metaphorical here, trying to elucidate how you understand these terms. But since these concepts are at the heart of what we're discussing, I think it would be helpful to be as literal and specific as possible about what you think these terms refer to. In my view, "intellect" is what we call our mental faculties that store and retrieve memories, make inferences, generate and maintain beliefs, solve problems, generate plans and designs, and so on. And "will" is what we call our consciously deliberated decision making.
A desire or appetite is something that the will can either choose to satisfy or reject, based on the intellect’s assessment of its worth and the will’s power to say yes or no.
You do actually seem to believe that the "will" is an autonomous agency that operates independently, making decisions seperately apart from the rest of the mind. But agents typically are endowed with beliefs and desires. Do you believe that our wills have their own beliefs and desires? If not, on what basis do they make decisions?
A belief is something that the intellect can understand and the will can embrace. Hopefully, both faculties will work together, but sadly that is not always the case. The intellect, for example, can say, “You really ought to stop smoking,” but the will can say, “But I just don’t want to.” To be morally healthy, the intellect must be fed (to know the truth) and the will must be trained (to prefer the truth).
I'm sorry, but honestly I find this personification of the various aspects of our minds to be terribly confusing. In my view, I make decisions, not my intellect nor my will nor my brain nor my gut nor anything else. Yes, to better our understanding we characterize ourselves in terms of various different components, at various levels of abstraction, but in the end the responsibility for our actions is due to us, and not one or another of these components. I do not blame my amygdala for my losing my temper, nor my will - I blame myself.
My thoughts and feelings come from me, my genes, and my environment, but my will is solely mine.
But you've characterized your will and your intellect as making independent decisions and having competing ideas and goals... as though they were little homunculi fighting for control inside your head. Why is one of these components "soley yours" and the other only partly yours? How do you know your will isn't also affected by genes and environment, the way your intellect is? And finally, if all these components are independently thinking entities that you possess, what exactly is you?
RDF: In that case, is there anything that our will takes into consideration, besides the things we believe and desire, when it makes a choice? What might that be? SB: What should I believe? What should I desire? What should I decide? What is good for me? What is good for others?
But of course the answers to these questions are themselves beliefs. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Fred might offer up his own volition as the reason :-)
Hahahaha! Yes, or he might have said "Oh, I just felt like it" or "Because that's the kind of hairpin I am" or "Go figure!" or any number of different "reasons". These sorts of statements can "explain" anything, of course, so they really aren't articulated explanations that account for anything. I guess what you're saying is that our decisions are opaque, inexplicable things that do not derive from what we know, what we believe, what we value and desire, or anything else - they just are what they are, kind of like how other animals might make decisions. That's ok, but it's a bit pessimistic I'd say; I guess I just hoped that at least sometimes people can actually provide some sort of justification for their actions besides "My will made me do it!" :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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"The people alluded to did not change their beliefs about artificial birth control because of social pressure. If you believe that, then you don’t believe in free will. They changed their beliefs at a time of social pressure. It is not the same thing. Outside pressure in the form of persuasion can never be the cause of a moral decision, just as inside pressure in the form of temptation can never be its cause. The cause is always in the operation of the person’s will. Everyone faces pressures and temptations, but it is the choice to yield to them that can prompt a changed belief." RDFish
According to you, then, our choices (including our choice of what to believe) are not based on our experiences, nor on our beliefs and our desires, but rather our choices are based soley on our will.
No doubt all those elements contribute to the environment in which the decision is made, but that is not the issue. The issue is this: Who, if anyone, is responsible for that decision. Recall that you originally argued that no one has the power to change his beliefs. Against that assertion, I pointed out that millions of people chose to change their belief about the morality of artificial birth control. You responded by saying that the people who made that change were not responsible for their decision, claiming that outside pressures were the cause, in effect, denying free will. I pointed out that neither outside pressures or internal temptations are responsible for our moral choices or our changed beliefs. Our will is free to resist or override those external pressures and internal temptations. If you don't believe in freedom of the will, please just say so and we can be done with it. If you do believe in free will, then you need to explain why you assigned the cause of changed belief to external pressures and not to the individual who made the change. Your current comment does not address that point.
You think “will” is something that operates independently from our beliefs and desires.
The intellect and the will are both faculties that function for a purpose. The intellect is for apprehending and conceiving; the will is for preferring and choosing. The intellect asks, "What do I know? The will asks, "What do I love?" A desire or appetite is something that the will can either choose to satisfy or reject, based on the intellect's assessment of its worth and the will's power to say yes or no. A belief is something that the intellect can understand and the will can embrace. Hopefully, both faculties will work together, but sadly that is not always the case. The intellect, for example, can say, "You really ought to stop smoking," but the will can say, "But I just don't want to." To be morally healthy, the intellect must be fed (to know the truth) and the will must be trained (to prefer the truth). The intellect provides the moral target, so to speak, and the will shoots the arrow. Some targets are not worth shooting at: Not every desire is good (in conformity with the truth); not every appetite is healthy (contributing to life); not every belief is true (worthy of intellectual assent). My thoughts and feelings come from me, my genes, and my environment, but my will is solely mine. I can distance myself from my thoughts of destruction and my feelings of hate, but I cannot distance myself from what I decide to do about them. From a moral vantage point, I am what I decide--not what I think--not what I feel.
In that case, is there anything that our will takes into consideration, besides the things we believe and desire, when it makes a choice? What might that be?
What should I believe? What should I desire? What should I decide? What is good for me? What is good for others?StephenB
May 2, 2013
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So I will ask you, what other sorts of reasons might Fred offer for his eating (or refraining from eating) doughnuts that are not essentially references to any of his beliefs or desires?
Fred might offer up his own volition as the reason. :)Phinehas
May 2, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
In order for this to be a true dichotomy and not a false one, there can be no reasonable choices outside those based on Fred’s beliefs and desires, which gets us right back around to basically defining what is reasonable based on Fred’s beliefs and desires.
In my view, "beliefs" comprise everything one thinks is true, from "doughnuts taste good" to "fire can burn you" to "Jesus died for our sins" and on and on. And "desires" comprise all of our articulated motivations, from "I want to eat doughnuts" to "I want to be well-liked" to "I want to go to heaven" and on and on. I presented this as a true dichotomy because of my belief that every reason one might articulate for anything might do would necessarily be expressed, in the end, in terms of our beliefs and desires. So I will ask you, what other sorts of reasons might Fred offer for his eating (or refraining from eating) doughnuts that are not essentially references to any of his beliefs or desires? (Let's not bring up scenarios where people are physically coerced, as in "Fred ate the doughnut because he was tied to a chair and force-fed"). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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Since this has caused such confusion, let’s drop the problematic term altogether.
Yes! Let's! (But I see you've slipped it back in in your response to VJT above.)
Now, Fred is confronted with a doughnut, and must make the choice of whether or not to eat it. He might base his decision on no reason at all (he might flip a coin, or perform the mental equivalent of choosing one act or the other for no reason). Alternatively, he might base his decision on his beliefs and his desires.
I believe that the following are true dichotomies: Either Fred eats a doughnut for no reason, or he eats it for a reason. Either Fred eats a doughnut based on something other than his beliefs and desires, or he eats it based on his beliefs and desires. But the following formulation is a true dichotomy if and only if the set of what qualifies as a reason is exactly the same as the set of Fred's beliefs and desires: Either Fred eats a doughnut for no reason, or he eats it based on his beliefs and desires. Haven't you just replaced "rational" with "reasonable?" In order for this to be a true dichotomy and not a false one, there can be no reasonable choices outside those based on Fred's beliefs and desires, which gets us right back around to basically defining what is reasonable based on Fred's beliefs and desires. To me, the weight of your argument rests on pejoratives like "irrational" and "unreasonable." That's why these notions keep finding their way back into your formulations. Without the intimation that making a choice based on something beside beliefs and desires is in some way irrational or unreasonable, you are left with the rather uncontroversial claim from above that: Either Fred eats a doughnut based on something other than his beliefs and desires, or he eats it based on his beliefs and desires.Phinehas
May 2, 2013
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Hi vjtorley,
You’ve assumed that in paradigm cases, our choices are determined by our beliefs and desires
What I am saying is that while our choices are not necessarily based upon our unchosen beliefs and desires, if they are not then it is difficult to see what else they may be based upon if we are to be rational.
Hence to say that I desire to be moral doesn’t really make sense: “being moral” is not an object, as such, so it’s incapable of “pulling” you.
In your view, it makes no sense to say "I desire to be moral", because being moral is not an object. Likewise, I assume, you would say it makes no sense to say "I desire to be loved" or "I desire to be healthy" or "I desire to be happy" because these things (love, health, happiness) are not objects. If that is your view, I must respectfully disagree: Virtually everyone I've ever known has desired these things, and I'm certain that I do. These things "pull me" more than anything else - certainly a great deal more than things like houses, money, or other worldly posessions!
I might wish to be moral (because a wish is typically for a state of affairs rather than an object), but I can’t desire it, strictly speaking, because there’s no “it” to desire.
Again, this directly contradicts my experience and knowledge of people. We desire all sorts of things that are not objects! Some people desire fame or recognition, and this drives much of their behavior. People can desire knowledge, or freedom, or peace... none of these things are concrete objects - they are all abstract notions - but I hope you agree that people are powerfully motivated by their desire for these things! If you'd like to substitute some other term (like "wish for" or "yearn for" or "want"...) instead of "desire", that's fine, as long as the meaning is the same. But people do typically use the term "desire" for these abstract desires (you can confirm this with internet searches!)
I might add that you still haven’t provided any independent yardstick for measuring the strength of a desire: the sole measure you propose is a subjective one – namely, what I feel pulling at me, right now.
Indeed - I have no inkling how we might formalize our thought processes in the way you suggest. We feel our desires, each of us - do you deny this? I cannot quantify desire - nor love, hate, curiosity, boredom, or any other aspect of our mental life. I suppose some cognitive psychologist could operationalize these things like they tend to do (We measure desire by how many times per hour the subject mentions it or some such thing) but I'm not interested in that, and it really doesn't have anything to do with my point here.
One would expect, then, that the selections made by any [non-rational] healthy animal would be based on its beliefs and desires... Desire by itself doesn’t move us when we’re in command of our rational faculties, and neither does belief coupled with desire. There is a third vital ingredient: commitment. Commitment cannot be reduced to or explained by our beliefs and desires, although these can certainly constrain the commitments we are capable of making.
I would certainly agree that human reasoning is qualitatively different from any other animal. The abstract things that we routinely think about and desire (respect, camaraderie, accomplishment, etc) can't be understood and reflected upon by other animals (but I'd say some abstract things, like social acceptance, are perceived by some animals). I don't want to turn this into a discussion of animal cognition (as fascinating as that topic is!), but I would say that "commitment" certainly falls into the category of abstract social constructs that we value (allegiance, altruism, kindness, fairness, generosity, honesty, and so on). I know that I desire very strongly to exhibit these qualities myself (although maybe you'd rather say that I "wish" I have these qualities).
While it is true that I cannot commit myself to a way of life that conflicts with my beliefs, it is also true that the commitments that I make in life – my choice of marriage partner, choice of lifestyle, choice of religious practice [as opposed to creed] and so on – cannot be predicted from, and are not entailed by, my beliefs. Nor can they be predicted from my beliefs and desires, taken together.
I think a commitment is a type of communication: When I make a commitment (or promise), I communicate my intent to somebody to do (or not do) something. I can then either honor or break that commitment. Let's say I subsequently choose to honor my commitment. I make that choice either for some set of reasons, or for no reason at all. If I honor it for no reason, I am not being rational. If I honor my commitment for some reason(s), then I would say these reasons are comprised of beliefs and desires. What other sorts of reasons could be involved?
To say that the rational choice is the one which is entailed by our beliefs coupled with our strongest desire in that particular situation begs the question, in three ways: (i) not every desire of ours is actually in our best interests (think of drugs);
I've remarked elsewhere in this thread that the notion of "rationality" can be more complex than "acting in reasoned accord with one's beliefs and desires". That is why I provided this particular, qualified definition for rationality in this discussion. But deciding for someone else that that attaining their desires is not in their best interests is obviously tricky business: I would say that dangerous mountain climbing is not in people's best interests, but others would disagree. So I'll stick with my qualified definition of rationality here.
(ii) in some everyday situations we cannot meaningfully speak of a “strongest desire”;
I've already responded that I'm not proposing some objective calculus that accounts for how we weigh our desires; I don't think minds work that way. Still, I submit it is undeniable that when we act rationally we do base our decisions on what we think and feel (our beliefs and desires).
..and more importantly, (iii) a commitment doesn’t require an underlying desire to validate it or make it rational. Rather, what it requires on the agent’s part is a vision of the good life (a life-plan, if you like), which incorporates the lifestyle the agent commits him/herself to, as well as the person to whom he/she is making the commitment. The lifestyle being committed to must also be consonant with the agent’s beliefs.
Again, a commitment is a promise regarding future behavior. If I promise to behave in some way that contradicts my beliefs and desires, why might I choose to do that? Either I have reasons for that or I don't. If I don't, I am being irrational. If I do, I would say the reasons are based on my beliefs and desires. You say that other things, including a "lifestyle" is involved, but I don't understand what a "lifestyle" is aside from a set of choices regarding behavior. Human beings are complicated, and our beliefs and desires are highly abstract. We deeply believe things like "my wife loves me" even though we can't quantify or objectively explain such things. We desire things like "to be respected in my community" even though the object of that desire is not a material object at all, but rather it refers to the subjective opinions of other people. And because of our ability to communicate abstract ideas with language, we can tell other people what we believe and desire, and make commitments to others to behave in certain ways - and these commitments may indeed affect our future choices, just as other acts we engage in can affect our future choices. Still, after all our discussion, I honestly believe that with regard to our behavior and free will, if we are to act in a reasoned fashion, we base our behaviors on our beliefs and our desires, which we are not capable of choosing by acts of will. And otherwise, we are acting without understanding our reasons, which is what animals do. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Fred chooses to eat a doughnut. In your view, Fred is only acting rationally to the extent that he made this choice based on his beliefs and desires.
Here is what I said in my last post to you:
I did agree with you that the concept of “rationality” could be defined in multiple ways, so I agree that the statement “Rational choices are not based on factors under our conscious control” would have to be qualified with regard to what definition of “rational” was being used.
And I've said many times that what I mean here by "rational" is acting in accord with our beliefs and desires. Since this has caused such confusion, let's drop the problematic term altogether. What I am saying, then, is that when we make choices we can either make them for some set of reasons, or for no reason at all. If our choice is reasoned, then the reasons are comprised of things we believe and things we desire, but these things are not freely chosen by acts of our will.
A. Fred desires to eat doughnuts. Either he has absolutely no competing desires regarding health or attractiveness, or he firmly believes that eating doughnuts will not adversely affect his health or looks.
Let's agree arguendo that everyone has competing desires, and that everyone desires doughnuts, and that everyone knows they're bad for our health and looks, and that furthermore everyone desires to be healthy and look the best they can. OK? Now, Fred is confronted with a doughnut, and must make the choice of whether or not to eat it. He might base his decision on no reason at all (he might flip a coin, or perform the mental equivalent of choosing one act or the other for no reason). Alternatively, he might base his decision on his beliefs and his desires. If Fred bases his decision on his beliefs and desires (and this is what I've been calling "rational", but again we can drop that term if it is confusing), then he is basing his decision on factors that he has not freely chosen (because nobody can freely choose what they believe or what they desire). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
The people alluded to did not change their beliefs about artificial birth control because of social pressure. If you believe that, then you don’t believe in free will. They changed their beliefs at a time of social pressure. It is not the same thing. Outside pressure in the form of persuasion can never be the cause of a moral decision, just as inside pressure in the form of temptation can never be its cause. The cause is always in the operation of the person’s will. Everyone faces pressures and temptations, but it is the choice to yield to them that can prompt a changed belief.
According to you, then, our choices (including our choice of what to believe) are not based on our experiences, nor on our beliefs and our desires, but rather our choices are based soley on our will. You think "will" is something that operates independently from our beliefs and desires. In that case, is there anything that our will takes into consideration, besides the things we believe and desire, when it makes a choice? What might that be? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 2, 2013
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Hi RDFish, I think I've at last figured out what's wrong with your analysis of human choice. You've assumed that in paradigm cases, our choices are determined by our beliefs and desires:
What I am arguing is that to the extent our choices are based upon our beliefs and desires, they are based on factors we do not consciously choose.
You then give an example:
If, for example, I desire to rob a bank but choose not to because it was immoral, this would mean my desire to be moral is stronger than my desire to steal money, and not that some transcendent decision-maker overrode my desire.
I should point out in passing that a desire is for something (some "good"), towards which we are pulled or attracted - typically, goods such as food, sex, worldly possessions, or friends. The "proper form" of a sentence containing the word "desire" is not "A desires that p" (where p is some proposition) but "A desires X" where X is some good. Hence to say that I desire to be moral doesn't really make sense: "being moral" is not an object, as such, so it's incapable of "pulling" you. I might wish to be moral (because a wish is typically for a state of affairs rather than an object), but I can't desire it, strictly speaking, because there's no "it" to desire. I can of course desire Heaven, and be averse to Hell - and that might serve as a powerful motive for not robbing a bank. So would the desire for the goods which I currently enjoy (a family, a job, a home, etc.), all of which I may lose if I rob a bank. I might add that you still haven't provided any independent yardstick for measuring the strength of a desire: the sole measure you propose is a subjective one - namely, what I feel pulling at me, right now. Getting back to the point: what's wrong with your account of action is that it assumes that a rational choice is explained by the beliefs and desires that underlie it. What I'm saying is that the "belief-desire" account of actions is only true for the kinds of decisions that non-rational animals make, where the desire is for some goal, and the belief functions as an internal map to steer the animal towards that goal. One would expect, then, that the selections made by any healthy animal would be based on its beliefs and desires - and if they weren't, we'd probably assume that the animal was sick and/or brain-damaged. What I'm proposing is that for human choices, it's a different kettle of fish. Desire by itself doesn't move us when we're in command of our rational faculties, and neither does belief coupled with desire. There is a third vital ingredient: commitment. Commitment cannot be reduced to or explained by our beliefs and desires, although these can certainly constrain the commitments we are capable of making. A commitment is typically to someone or some group of people (e.g. when we make a promise, pledge or vow to our spouse, family, employer, or community), and it involves a way of life that we publicly pledge to follow - e.g. a faithful, monogamous lifestyle; a healthy lifestyle; a regular work/study routine; or a lifestyle mandated by a religion. While it is true that I cannot commit myself to a way of life that conflicts with my beliefs, it is also true that the commitments that I make in life - my choice of marriage partner, choice of lifestyle, choice of religious practice [as opposed to creed] and so on - cannot be predicted from, and are not entailed by, my beliefs. Nor can they be predicted from my beliefs and desires, taken together. For I can certainly commit myself to a way of life that is utterly at odds with my desires - I may make a commitment simply out of a sense of duty. You will no doubt be tempted to reply that in that case, it is my desire to do my duty which is over-riding my other desires. Please, resist that temptation: it over-simplifies the human psyche. Desires, as I explained above, are essentially directed at objects, and a duty is not an object in any meaningful sense of the word. Typically what we find when we make the really big choices in life is that there is a variety of competing lifestyles (and sometimes competing persons) that we can commit to. To say that the rational choice is the one which is entailed by our beliefs coupled with our strongest desire in that particular situation begs the question, in three ways: (i) not every desire of ours is actually in our best interests (think of drugs); (ii) in some everyday situations we cannot meaningfully speak of a "strongest desire"; and more importantly, (iii) a commitment doesn't require an underlying desire to validate it or make it rational. Rather, what it requires on the agent's part is a vision of the good life (a life-plan, if you like), which incorporates the lifestyle the agent commits him/herself to, as well as the person to whom he/she is making the commitment. The lifestyle being committed to must also be consonant with the agent's beliefs. A choice may be irrational insofar as it is based on epistemically flawed beliefs, or a commitment to a goal that is not in one's long-term interest, or one's interest as a human person (as opposed to a mere animal). But whether we make a rational or an irrational choice, it is not determined by our beliefs and desires. Commitment is an irreducible and ineliminable component of every human choice we make. (Thanks for correcting my typo, by the way. I did mean to type "choices" in that paragraph in #70.)vjtorley
May 2, 2013
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RDF: What I am arguing is that to the extent our choices are based upon our beliefs and desires, they are based on factors we do not consciously choose. PHINEHAS: Which desires? The desire to eat doughnuts? The desire to be healthy? Or the desire to be attractive? RDF: We do not have the ability to consciously choose any of our desires. We all know what it is to experience desire for something, and we know what it is to make a conscious decision.
I would have thought that, in context, my meaning was clear, but evidently it wasn't. I'm not asking about which desires you think we can consciously choose. I'm quite clear on what you believe to be the case. I'm asking about, as it relates to your doughnut example, which desires a choice must be based on in order to be deemed rational. It is here that I am struggling to find any clarity in your argument. Fred chooses to eat a doughnut. In your view, Fred is only acting rationally to the extent that he made this choice based on his beliefs and desires. But this is rather vague and simplistic. There could be several underlying realities. A. Fred desires to eat doughnuts. Either he has absolutely no competing desires regarding health or attractiveness, or he firmly believes that eating doughnuts will not adversely affect his health or looks. It seems clear to me that in this instance, given how you've defined rationality, that Fred would be acting in a rational manner. Setting aside the issue that rationality so defined is at odds with how we would naturally evaluate such a scenario, it seems to me that the described case is highly unlikely to the point that, practically speaking, it doesn't really exist. B. Fred desires to eat doughnuts. Fred also desires to be healthy and attractive. Fred believes that eating doughnuts could result in health issues and weight gain. Given that Fred ate a doughnut and given the ambiguous definition that rationality is acting based on beliefs and desires, do we conclude: 1. Fred acted rationally because he desires to eat doughnuts? 2. Fred did not act rationally because he desires to be healthy and attractive? If (B) is a much better reflection of reality than (A), then a philosophy based on (A) might be, for all practical purposes, meaningless. If (B.1), then perhaps you've defined rationality in a way such that we all act rationally all of the time, in which case (B.1) might be, for all practical purposes, meaningless. If (B.2), then perhaps you've defined rationality in a way such that we all act irrationally all of the time, in which case, (B.2) might be, for all practical purposes, meaningless. If none of the above, then please lay out how one would go about determining whether Fred eating a doughnut was rational or not, since, until you do, it will be difficult to discern whether you are saying something meaningful or not.Phinehas
May 2, 2013
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RDFish
Yet again, you give an example of people changing their beliefs because they are persuaded to, and not because they simply chose to.
The people alluded to did not change their beliefs about artificial birth control because of social pressure. If you believe that, then you don’t believe in free will. They changed their beliefs at a time of social pressure. It is not the same thing. Outside pressure in the form of persuasion can never be the cause of a moral decision, just as inside pressure in the form of temptation can never be its cause. The cause is always in the operation of the person’s will. Everyone faces pressures and temptations, but it is the choice to yield to them that can prompt a changed belief.
Could you, by sheer power of will, decide that artificial birth control was a great boon to wholesome and healthy lives? I’m guessing this would not be within your power, even on pain of death.
Not directly and not instantaneously. A firmly held belief that is held for a good reason cannot easily be uprooted, nor should it be. In the moral realm, a changed belief is contingent on the moral condition and intellectual integrity of the one who makes the change. There are only two classes of people—those who follow the light they are given and those who do not. If an individual seeks the truth and behaves morally, he will gradually abandon false beliefs and embrace true beliefs. If he does not seek the truth and behaves immorally, he will militate against true beliefs and embrace false beliefs. If, for example, I began to commit adultery, I would soon start rationalizing my behavior. If I continued to ignore my conscience, my intellect would become compromised and my will would become perverted. In time, I would likely choose to change my belief about artificial birth control so that it was consistent with my behavior. If a man doesn't behave as he believes, he will end by believing as he behaves.StephenB
May 1, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF: What I am arguing is that to the extent our choices are based upon our beliefs and desires, they are based on factors we do not consciously choose. PHINEHAS: Which desires? The desire to eat doughnuts? The desire to be healthy? Or the desire to be attractive?
We do not have the ability to consciously choose any of our desires. We all know what it is to experience desire for something, and we know what it is to make a conscious decision. And if you think about it, you'll find that if you try to make a conscious decision to desire something you do not already desire (or vice-versa), it won't work. This is true for any desire.
First you’ve defined rationality in a way we both agree is problematic. Then, upon that shaky foundation you’ve added the qualifier “to the extent.” And finally, you’ve admitted that, well, you’re not really sure how you’d go about calculating the extent that is your qualifier.
I have been quite consistent, since the beginning of this discussion, in saying that it is our beliefs and desires that are not under our conscious control. That is why I have consistently held that to the extent our choices are based on our beliefs and desires, then our choices based on factors that we have not freely chosen. I did agree with you that the concept of "rationality" could be defined in multiple ways, so I agree that the statement "Rational choices are not based on factors under our conscious control" would have to be qualified with regard to what definition of "rational" was being used. And finally, regarding my comment about not being able to calculate a decision, this had nothing to do with the extent to which we base our decisions upon our beliefs and desires. You had asked me how we calculate our decisions, and I replied that I was not convinced that our decisions were calculated (i.e. that our minds worked like formal systems, e.g. calculators or computers). So you seem to have thought I may have changed my argument, or qualified or hedged or softened it... but no, I really haven't at all. My position is exactly the same as when I first stated it. I will say it yet another way: Since our beliefs and desires are not under our conscious control, when make choices according to our beliefs in order to attain what we desire, our choices are not free. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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Most folks desire to eat doughnuts. Most of them also desire to be healthy. To live a long life. To look good in swimwear. To be attractive to the opposite sex. Etc. By your lights, when is it rational to eat doughnuts? And when is it not? How would you calculate this?
I don’t know if these decisions can be calcuated (i.e. by means of a formal system). When I say “rational” here I’ve said that I mean in accordance with your beliefs and desires, but I’ve also made clear that we often are not rational, and that we cannot explain how our minds actually work. What I am arguing is that to the extent our choices are based upon our beliefs and desires, they are based on factors we do not consciously choose.
Which desires? The desire to eat doughnuts? The desire to be healthy? Or the desire to be attractive? First you've defined rationality in a way we both agree is problematic. Then, upon that shaky foundation you've added the qualifier "to the extent." And finally, you've admitted that, well, you're not really sure how you'd go about calculating the extent that is your qualifier. Have you considered that you may very well have defined rationality in a way that makes your "to the extent" qualifier practically zero in the vast majority of cases.
I’ve also made clear that we often are not rational, and that we cannot explain how our minds actually work.
The issue isn't so much whether someone can be irrational. We've agreed that they can. The issue is whether or not, under your definition, it is even possible for someone to be rational. And how could we tell if it were possible or not? In other words, it could be true under your definition of rationality that we all act irrationally all the time. Therefore, free will has primacy over our beliefs and desires.Phinehas
May 1, 2013
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as to desires: Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, "Hope") Brooke Fraser- “C S Lewis Song” http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DL6LPLNX The Argument From Desire http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/desire.htmbornagain77
May 1, 2013
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Hi vjtorley,
Now, if you had said that to the extent that our beliefs are rational, they are entailed by our beliefs and desires, then you would have at least had a defensible position.
I believe you meant to say "...to the extent that our choices are rational, they are entailed..." here, did you not? Assuming you did, that is precisely what I have been saying.
But then you spoil your case by making a logical leap from “entailed by” to “compelled by”. And that simply doesn’t follow.
Ah, I see. Actually, I have used both of these terms ("entailed by" and "compelled by") interchangeably, but I have never said or meant "determined by" or "caused exclusively by" or anything to that effect. That would be mistaken, as I've indicated (because we can also choose to behave in ways that are irrespective of our beliefs and desires).
It’s perfectly possible that whenever I choose rationally, my decision follows logically from my beliefs and desires, without its being the case that those beliefs and desires necessitate my choice. Putting it simply: I can still choose whether to be rational or not, on this particular occasion.
I agree completely, and believe I have consistently said just that, many times over (to you and others). If I have been unclear somewhere (entirely possible!) I apologize.
You then add: …if you make a choice, and you don’t know why you’ve made the choice, then your choice might as well have been random (or determined by inaccessible neural processes) The reason why, when I select one good out of a multitude of competing goods that I have no time to evaluate, my choice is not a random one, is that I re-orient my plans accordingly, and adjust them to my new end. A blip in my brain wouldn’t do that.
I'm sorry but I do not understand what you are saying. Faced with a multitude of goods, and insufficient time to evaluate which of them best suits your desires according to your beliefs, you pick one of them. You say that this still doesn't mean it is a random choice, which I agree with - it might be determined by something else, for example by unconscious brain processes (what you seem to call "a blip"). But then you seem to be saying that unconscious brain processes would not allow you (or cause you?) to re-orient your plans to whatever choice you made - but I certainly don't see why your unconscious brain processes would not be able to re-orient your plans according to a choice you just made!
Let’s say that a Catholic living in 1869 is open-minded about the doctrine of papal infallibility but does not actually believe it. The following year, the Church defines it, and he happily accepts it, because he happens to believe in the infallibility of the Church. Cardinal Newman did that. It seems to me that his belief was a choice.
So this Catholic person initially disbelieves the Pope is infallible, but believes that the Church is infallible. I would of course say at that point he would be utterly incapable of simply deciding to alter his beliefs by an act of sheer will. Then he hears that the Church says that the Pope is infallible, and this added evidence changes his mind so that now his belief has been changed. Yes, that is precisely what I mean when I say that outside influences, new evidence, and even re-evaluation of existing evidence may (or may not) lead to changes in one's beliefs. But what certainly does not lead to changes of one's beliefs is a conscious, willful choice to change that belief. Anyway, thanks for your responses. The more responses I get regarding this observation I made, the more certain I am that it is not only correct, but also of some importance. You suggested that my ideas were Hobbesian, but I actully think he was forumulating an account of our behaviors vis-a-vis our beliefs and desires, which is not what I am talking about. If you know of any philosopher who has made the same point I am making, I'd be interested to hear it! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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RDFish, thanks for taking the time to answer at #71. I think we agree that changing one's beliefs is not under the same sort of volitional control as bodily movement, for example. I think we also agree that we can choose to act contrary to our beliefs. Beyond that it's unclear, but I'll spend more time with your answers at #71. Thanks again.Chance Ratcliff
May 1, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Right. And murder for hire is utterly different from murder because, instead of pulling the trigger yourself, you are giving someone else money and then hoping that they will pull the trigger for you.
They are obviously different in some ways, although the result is certainly the same (the victim dies!). I think the main difference that I was talking about is that when we make a conscious choice to do something, we know what we have decided to do, and we can act accordingly. But if we are just hoping to have our beliefs changed by subjecting ourselves to outside influences, we don't know if our beliefs will change or not. That's why I say the former constitutes willful choice, while the latter is more like seeing where the chips fall. It's like the difference between choosing to go into a particular profession, or just going to a job fair to see if somebody offers you a job.
On the other hand, they are not so utterly different because the intent, the goal, the entire point is exactly the same. In the same way, if the intent, the goal, the entire point of an action is to change a desire or belief, the indirect nature starts to look an awful lot like just a technicality.
A lot of people are saying things like this here, but I haven't seen any examples of this. People talk about changing their emotions (e.g. overcoming fear or sadness by the power of positive thinking), or choosing one belief over another when there is no reason to pick either one (which doesn't seem like a rational choice). But nobody talks about having a real belief (like "you shouldn't eat animals" or "fish can breath under water") and, by making a conscious decision, believe the opposite thing.
Smiling as an act of will can change your outlook or beliefs about your emotional well-being. This can be predicted.
And yet again, this really isn't what we're talking about. If you are feeling sad you can't say to yourself "I choose to be happy!" and then feel happy. Instead, you have to search ways to try and make yourself happy: You might choose to start smiling, or take drugs, or join a religion, or start exercising... but none of these techniques is the same thing as "choosing to be happy".
Most folks desire to eat doughnuts. Most of them also desire to be healthy. To live a long life. To look good in swimwear. To be attractive to the opposite sex. Etc. By your lights, when is it rational to eat doughnuts? And when is it not? How would you calculate this?
I don't know if these decisions can be calcuated (i.e. by means of a formal system). When I say "rational" here I've said that I mean in accordance with your beliefs and desires, but I've also made clear that we often are not rational, and that we cannot explain how our minds actually work. What I am arguing is that to the extent our choices are based upon our beliefs and desires, they are based on factors we do not consciously choose.
If you choose to smile with the intent to change your beliefs, it starts to look like hair-splitting to point out that it was the smile that changed your beliefs and not the choice. It brings to mind the murderer who rationalizes that it was the hit man who did the actual killing. On the other hand, I confidently predict that if you choose to refrain from eating doughnuts, refrain from looking at doughnuts, refrain from smelling doughnuts, and refrain from hanging out in doughnut shops, your desire to eat doughnuts will be less than if you choose to do the exact opposite. This isn’t just hoping. I’m saying it is highly likely to happen. Not a certainty, but very nearly so.
And I confidently predict that if you inject heroin, you will feel happy (for some finite period of time). But it is not the same as becoming happy by smiling - it is a very different thing. Just because the intent and the outcome is the same does not mean the two means of achieving the ends are equivalent. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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Hi Chance,
I’m trying to better understand your position. In essence you seem to be arguing that belief is always preeminent over other conscious faculties. If that is the case, the exercise of our free will is always subject to our beliefs, and never the other way around.
Here are some things I've posted about that:
"Again, no, I really was just talking about rational choices needing to be reasoned from beliefs and desires. And I’ve said many times that I’m well aware that humans are not uniformally (or even usually) rational." and "So, to the extent we base our actions upon our beliefs and desires, our choices are not under our volitional control." and "Actually no, I am not assuming there is sufficient reason for our behaviors. Rather, my point is that to the extent our actions are rational (by which I mean proceed by reason from our beliefs and desires) then they are compelled by factors we do not freely choose." and so on...
So, as you can see, I've consistently been saying that we are all perfectly capable of acting in ways that are not in accordance with our beliefs and desires, and we do it all the time. However, to the extent that our choices are rational according to our beliefs and desires, in that case they are entailed by things we do not consciously choose.
If the exercise of our will is always subject to our beliefs, how do we root those beliefs ontologically — what causes our beliefs?
And again: Our will is never subject to our beliefs, because we are always free to act irrationally.
Is this cause physical, experiential, spiritual, some combination, or something else entirely?
First, I'm not taking a position on metaphysical ontology here. Perhaps our mental faculties operate according to special immaterial causes that transcend what we think of as physical cause... or perhaps not. I really am agnostic about such things, and I won't argue them. Clearly, though, our beliefs are affected by our experiences - I doubt you'd argue that. So I think it is safe to say that what engenders beliefs in our minds is a combination of the totality of our experience combined with our innate and ideosyncratic cogntive faculties, and I think it is also safe to say that we don't understand very much at all about how our minds work (that is, we don't know much about how thinking proceeds, including memory formation and retrieval, belief formation and revision, inference and problem solving, language generation and understanding, and so on). My point about beliefs, desires, and volition make no assumptions about ontology or the fundamental operation of minds; it really is just a statement that I think can be ascertained by anyone via a brief introspection.
How does this cause account for the similarity of some beliefs between people, such as the blueness of the sky or the five-ness of our fingers and toes, as well as the differences in our beliefs, such as whether or not God exists, or whether the intentional termination of a pregnancy can morally be considered wicked, ambiguous, or praiseworthy.
How do I account for the similarities and differences among what people think? I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I really don't have any particular theory about that.
Do you see meaningful differences between beliefs resulting from direct perceptual experience, those formed from uniform and repeated experience, and the more abstract beliefs you allude to, such as political or religious ones, or are all beliefs made of essentially the same stuff?
Without talking about what beliefs are "made of", I think it's clear that some beliefs (what goes up comes down, water is wet, fire burns, ice melts in the sun, etc) are held by virtually everyone (and so we call them "objective facts"), while people's beliefs vary widely vary about other propositions we call "subjective": (Angelina Jolie is beautiful, John Stewart is funny, mathematics is interesting). Still other propositions (tax cuts spur economic growth, man-made climate change is real) seem like there ought to be "objective" answers to, but there is still wide disagreement about. I'm certainly no expert in epistemology, though, and none of these things have to do with the truth of my observations. Again, I think it's clear that if you consider any belief that you hold (something you're sure you believe in), you cannot alter your belief by deciding to believe differently.
Why is belief a better place to root our conscious existence and behavior than free will is?
I actually don't understand this question, but I can see that it isn't germain, since I am agnostic regarding what you call the root of our conscious existence (experience).
To motivate my reason for asking that last question, let me put something forward. Metaphysically, I can terminate the conscious existence in pure will — our ability to choose between alternatives — a kind of uncaused cause. This is not to say that our beings are uncaused, but rather the moment to moment expression of our selves is caused by this same self, whose most primary property is the will.
We could certainly talk about reasons to believe or disbelieve in contra-causal volition, or about the nature of conscious experience, but again that isn't what I'm talking about here (and I personally find these sorts of metaphysical discussions don't seem to go anywhere). That's why I'm trying stick to things we all agree about: We all experience beliefs and desires, and we know what it is to make a conscious choice, and so we can all try and see if we can change our beliefs and desires by consciously choosing them. I'm saying that I find it impossible to do so, and I don't think other people can do it either. And from there, I point out that to the extent that our choices are based on our beliefs and desires, we find that our choices are based on factors that we do not choose.
As a footnote, it seems to me that your position follows either from physical determinism or Calvinism. Are you willing to say whether either of those are the case?
With the caveat that I am not interested in (or able to) defend whatever metaphysical speculations I may offer, I'll tell you my inclinations. I think most of the metaphysical questions we ask (the relation of mind and matter, the nature of consciousness and free will, and so on) are not answerable in the way we ask them, in the same way we cannot answer the question "Is a photon a wave or a particle"? Photons are neither of these things - they are something else that we can't conceptualize. So, for example, I do not understand what people mean by "materialism", since it seems to me we do not understand what "material" things are made of. As for determinism (of various flavors), I simply have no idea.
Thanks in advance for whatever answers you’re inclined to provide.
Please believe that I'm not being coy here; I'm not a closet Calvinist or secret physicalist or anything. I just think about questions like these and come to the conclusion that I don't know what the truth is about them. My beliefs about the fact that our rational decisions are not freely chosen just seems obvious to me based on personal experience. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
May 1, 2013
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Hi RDFish, Thank you for your response. You write:
Actually no, I am not assuming there is sufficient reason for our behaviors. Rather, my point is that to the extent our actions are rational (by which I mean proceed by reason from our beliefs and desires) then they are compelled by factors we do not freely choose.
Now, if you had said that to the extent that our beliefs [correction: choices] are rational, they are entailed by our beliefs and desires, then you would have at least had a defensible position. But then you spoil your case by making a logical leap from "entailed by" to "compelled by". And that simply doesn't follow. It's perfectly possible that whenever I choose rationally, my decision follows logically from my beliefs and desires, without its being the case that those beliefs and desires necessitate my choice. Putting it simply: I can still choose whether to be rational or not, on this particular occasion. You then add:
...if you make a choice, and you don't know why you've made the choice, then your choice might as well have been random (or determined by inaccessible neural processes)
The reason why, when I select one good out of a multitude of competing goods that I have no time to evaluate, my choice is not a random one, is that I re-orient my plans accordingly, and adjust them to my new end. A blip in my brain wouldn't do that.
And I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that you could persuade yourself of some point religious dogma that you do not currently believe simply by choice. If you could, can you give an example?
Sure. Let's say that a Catholic living in 1869 is open-minded about the doctrine of papal infallibility but does not actually believe it. The following year, the Church defines it, and he happily accepts it, because he happens to believe in the infallibility of the Church. Cardinal Newman did that. It seems to me that his belief was a choice. Cheers.vjtorley
May 1, 2013
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Ok, but to me it seems utterly different, because instead of using your will to change your belief you are using you will to put yourself in a situation where you’re hoping something else will change your beliefs for you.
Right. And murder for hire is utterly different from murder because, instead of pulling the trigger yourself, you are giving someone else money and then hoping that they will pull the trigger for you. On the other hand, they are not so utterly different because the intent, the goal, the entire point is exactly the same. In the same way, if the intent, the goal, the entire point of an action is to change a desire or belief, the indirect nature starts to look an awful lot like just a technicality. Smiling as an act of will can change your outlook or beliefs about your emotional well-being. This can be predicted. If you choose to smile with the intent to change your beliefs, it starts to look like hair-splitting to point out that it was the smile that changed your beliefs and not the choice. It brings to mind the murderer who rationalizes that it was the hit man who did the actual killing.
I might intend to rid myself of my desire to eat doughnuts, but it is not in my power to do actually do so. I can only refrain from actually eating them, but my desire remains.
Most folks desire to eat doughnuts. Most of them also desire to be healthy. To live a long life. To look good in swimwear. To be attractive to the opposite sex. Etc. By your lights, when is it rational to eat doughnuts? And when is it not? How would you calculate this? On the other hand, I confidently predict that if you choose to refrain from eating doughnuts, refrain from looking at doughnuts, refrain from smelling doughnuts, and refrain from hanging out in doughnut shops, your desire to eat doughnuts will be less than if you choose to do the exact opposite. This isn't just hoping. I'm saying it is highly likely to happen. Not a certainty, but very nearly so.Phinehas
May 1, 2013
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RDFish, I'm trying to better understand your position. In essence you seem to be arguing that belief is always preeminent over other conscious faculties. If that is the case, the exercise of our free will is always subject to our beliefs, and never the other way around. Can you give us more to go on here? I'd like to ask a few clarifying questions. If the exercise of our will is always subject to our beliefs, how do we root those beliefs ontologically -- what causes our beliefs? Is this cause physical, experiential, spiritual, some combination, or something else entirely? How does this cause account for the similarity of some beliefs between people, such as the blueness of the sky or the five-ness of our fingers and toes, as well as the differences in our beliefs, such as whether or not God exists, or whether the intentional termination of a pregnancy can morally be considered wicked, ambiguous, or praiseworthy. Do you see meaningful differences between beliefs resulting from direct perceptual experience, those formed from uniform and repeated experience, and the more abstract beliefs you allude to, such as political or religious ones, or are all beliefs made of essentially the same stuff? Why is belief a better place to root our conscious existence and behavior than free will is? To motivate my reason for asking that last question, let me put something forward. Metaphysically, I can terminate the conscious existence in pure will -- our ability to choose between alternatives -- a kind of uncaused cause. This is not to say that our beings are uncaused, but rather the moment to moment expression of our selves is caused by this same self, whose most primary property is the will. However if instead belief is necessarily antecedent to the exercise of our will, then the expression of self is always subject to this entity called belief that must either be caused or uncaused. Since it doesn't seem logically possible for beliefs to be uncaused -- they must succeed perception and experience -- it follows that they must be caused. One might be tempted to impute this same limitation to free will. Yet if any prior causes of the expression of free will exist, then that will is not free, but rather it is determined. So it appears to me that free will must be an uncaused expression of self by definition. Now one could certainly take issue with my reasoning above, which may indeed be flawed, but the question is still significant. Why is belief a better place to root our conscious existence and behavior than free will is? Beliefs themselves appear to need a cause, and it's still unclear what you think this cause is. If our will is subject to our beliefs, and our beliefs are determined by another cause, then it doesn't seem at all clear that we actually possess free will, because that will becomes determined by other factors. As a footnote, it seems to me that your position follows either from physical determinism or Calvinism. Are you willing to say whether either of those are the case? Thanks in advance for whatever answers you're inclined to provide.Chance Ratcliff
May 1, 2013
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