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Can Science Ground Morality?

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Of course not, as we have often noted in these pages.

James Davison Hunter’s and Paul Nedelisky’s  Where the New Science of Morality Goes Wrong is a great primer on the subject.  Their take down of Sam Harris is especially good:

The new moral scientists sometimes provide certain examples that they think illustrate that science has demonstrated (or can demonstrate) that certain moral claims are true or false. A favorite is the health or medical analogy. Neuroscientist and author Sam Harris, for example, employs the health analogy to argue that science can demonstrate moral value. A bit more circumspect than some who use the analogy, he recognizes that he’s assuming that certain observable properties are tied to certain moral values. Harris puts it this way:

Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value health. But once we admit that health is the proper concern of medicine, we can then study and promote it through science…. I think our concern for well-being is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is.… And once we begin thinking seriously about human well-being, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.12

Harris makes two assumptions—first, that well-being is a moral good, and, second, that we know what the observable properties of well-being are. Yet he doesn’t see these assumptions as problematic for the scientific status of his argument. After all, he reasons, we make similar assumptions in medicine, but we can all recognize that it is still a science. But he still doesn’t recognize that this thinking is fatal to his claim that science can determine moral values. To make the problem for Harris more vivid, compare his argument above with arguments that share the same logic and structure:

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the enslavement of Africans. But once we admit that slavery is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science. I think our concern for embracing slavery is even less in need for justification than our concern for health is. And once we begin thinking seriously about slavery, we will find that science can resolve specific questions about morality and human values.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value the purging of Jews, gypsies, and the mentally disabled from society. But once we admit that their eradication is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

  • Science cannot tell us why, scientifically, we should value a prohibition on gay marriage. But once we admit that such a prohibition is the proper concern of social science, we can then study and promote it through science.

 

Comments
The failings of human consciousness, deprived of its divine dimension, have been a determining factor in all the major crimes of this [20th] century.
“Godlessness: the First Step to the Gulag” Alexander Solzhenitsyn Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion on May of 1983
Dionisio
March 13, 2017
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What is more, the events of the Russian Revolution can only be understood now, at the end of the century, against the background of what has since occurred in the rest of the world. What emerges here is a process of universal significance. And if I were called upon to identify briefly the principal trait of the entire twentieth century, here too, I would be unable to find anything more precise and pithy than to repeat once again: Men have forgotten God.
“Godlessness: the First Step to the Gulag” Alexander Solzhenitsyn Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion on May of 1983
[emphasis added]Dionisio
March 13, 2017
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The first statement is relevant to the second.
In the mind of gold medalist mental gymnast in his ploy to evade the questions he was asked by redirecting it and stringing up word salads? Absolutely.Vy
March 13, 2017
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At the very least, this poem should help to give us an adequate idea of the creative power which the young Solzhenitsyn brought to the task of re-establishing objective truth* in a country whose government had devoted so much murderous energy to proving that there can be no such thing.
The literary critic Clive James on the poem "Prussian Nights" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. http://www.clivejames.com/pieces/shadows/solzhenitsyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_James
(*) [analyzed from the perspective of universally applicable objective morals] [emphasis added]Dionisio
March 13, 2017
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O:
These are all interesting questions. However, they are of no concern whatsoever for the materialist. In his world there is no striving towards moral truth, because there is none.
I agree. There is no moral "truth". Hoever, that does not mean that materialist do not strive for agreement within society for subjective moral values. Some are easy. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie,etc.. Others are more difficult. But that does not mean that materialist do not strive to have their subjective moral values adopted by others. In many respects, accepting that morality is subjective is more robust than believing that it is objective. If you believe that your moral values are objective, you are not likely to modify them to adapt to changing times. For example, there was a time when I was opposed to same sex marriage. Slowly, I changed my opinion on it but still had reservations about same sex adoption. I now fully accept both. Many Christians, however, still vehemently oppose it because they still believe that homosexuality is objectively wrong. Both same sex marriage and adoption have been legal in Canada for well over a decade and civilization hasn't collapsed, opposite sex marriages still exist, polygamy and bestiality are still illegal, adopted kids of same sex couples are no more likely to be homosexual than any other kid, churches are not forced to officiate over same sex marriages. All of the things that would happen if same sex marriage was legalized.Armand Jacks
March 12, 2017
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More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened. Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.
“Godlessness: the First Step to the Gulag” Alexander Solzhenitsyn Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion on May of 1983 [emphasis added]Dionisio
March 12, 2017
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s struggle for open expression made him one of the world’s most respected men. Under the repressive Soviet regime, he held firm in his beliefs and shared his worldview through powerful writings and devastating critiques of Russian Communism. His works renewed vitality in the Orthodox tradition and evidenced a profound spirituality.
http://www.templetonprize.org/previouswinner.htmlDionisio
March 12, 2017
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Prussian Nights by Alexander Solzhenitsyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_NightsDionisio
March 12, 2017
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@Origenes
My beliefs are off-topic, sorry.
And..
However, they are of no concern whatsoever for the materialist. In his world there is no striving towards moral truth, because there is none.
The first statement is relevant to the second. That's because you are implying there most be some state of affairs that results in morality and under theism / God that isn't present under materialism, which would explain why morality wouldn't exist in that case. Yet, apparently, you're unwilling to explain what that is or how it works. Then again, that's really not much of a surprise because God is an inexplicable mind that exists in an inexplicable realm that operates via inexplicable means and methods. God is only related to morality though the direct claim itself, rather than a long chain of hard to vary, independently formed explanations. I'm suggesting the epistemological flaw here is the belief that moral knowledge needs an authoritative source and there are no authoritative source in materialism. So, there can be no moral knowledge. And there is no problem because God wants to you know his actual concrete values and duties and God gets what he wants. Does that about sum it up?critical rationalist
March 10, 2017
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critical rationalist @
CR: Yes, I would agree there are objective moral truths ...
Given materialism, 'objective moral truths' based on what?
Am I correct in assuming you subscribe to the doctrine of divine simplicity, as opposed to one of the two horns of the euthyphro dilemma?
My beliefs are off-topic, sorry.
If you say some authoritative source in God’s nature, then how have you infallibly identified it? How can you infallibly interpret it?
These are all interesting questions. However, they are of no concern whatsoever for the materialist. In his world there is no striving towards moral truth, because there is none.Origenes
March 9, 2017
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@Origenes First, again, I'm not a moral revivalist. Neither is Harris. He's made that very clear. Yes, I would agree there are objective moral truths, but I do not agree there is some authoritative source of which we can rely on to not lead us into error. Am I correct in assuming you subscribe to the doctrine of divine simplicity, as opposed to one of the two horns of the euthyphro dilemma? Second, how do you know the golden rule is one of God's values or duties? How do you know when it is applicable and to what degree? At best, you could stay there are some moral values and duties, but that abstract form doesn't help you when faced with concrete moral problems. So, unless you've claiming to have no conclusion as to what those are, then what is your basis? I'm saying, if we attempt to take your claim seriously, it ends up we're effectively doing the same thing. You just don't realize it. If you say some authoritative source in God's nature, then how have you infallibly identified it? How can you infallibly interpret it?critical rationalist
March 9, 2017
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CR: It seems to me you have two choices here. Either you have an infallible means to identify and interpret a supposed source of moral values and duties, or you’re making educated guesses and criticizing them.
My point is that, given materialism, there is no morality to be found. One can guess and second guess and guess some more, but it’s all to no avail. There simply are no moral values and duties ‘out there’. All of reality consists of fermions and bosons, so there is no morality to be found. Nihilism.
First, nihilism can’t condemn Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or those who fomented the Armenian genocide or the Rwandan one. If there is no such thing as “morally forbidden,” then what Mohamed Atta did on September 11, 2001, was not morally forbidden. Of course, it was not permitted either. But still, don’t we want to have grounds to condemn these monsters? Nihilism seems to cut that ground out from under us. Second, if we admit to being nihilists, then people won’t trust us. We won’t be left alone when there is loose change around. We won’t be relied on to be sure small children stay out of trouble. Third, and worst of all, if nihilism gets any traction, society will be destroyed. We will find ourselves back in Thomas Hobbes’s famous state of nature, where “the life of man is solitary, mean, nasty, brutish and short.” Surely, we don’t want to be nihilists if we can possibly avoid it. (Or at least, we don’t want the other people around us to be nihilists.) Scientism can’t avoid nihilism. We need to make the best of it. For our own self-respect, we need to show that nihilism doesn’t have the three problems just mentioned—no grounds to condemn Hitler, lots of reasons for other people to distrust us, and even reasons why no one should trust anyone else. We need to be convinced that these unacceptable outcomes are not ones that atheism and scientism are committed to. Such outcomes would be more than merely a public relations nightmare for scientism. They might prevent us from swallowing nihilism ourselves, and that would start unraveling scientism. To avoid these outcomes, people have been searching for scientifically respectable justification of morality for least a century and a half. The trouble is that over the same 150 years or so, the reasons for nihilism have continued to mount. Both the failure to find an ethics that everyone can agree on and the scientific explanation of the origin and persistence of moral norms have made nihilism more and more plausible while remaining just as unappetizing. [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, Ch. 5]
CR: If the latter, on what basis are you operating on, Origenes?
I’m a theist. The golden rule does not exist according to materialism, but does exist in my world.Origenes
March 8, 2017
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I wrote:
It seems to me you have two choices here. Either you have an infallible means to identify and interpret a supposed source of moral values and duties, or you’re making educated guesses and criticizing them. If the latter, on what basis are you operating on, Origenes? But, by all means, feel free to conjecture a third option I haven’t though of, so we can criticize that too. But, actually, that would be the second option.
Origenes
[no response]
So you have no basis?critical rationalist
March 8, 2017
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Critical Rationalist:
CR: I’m saying we’re doing the same thing. It’s the same process.
Name the basis of your guesses and critiques on morality.
CR: You wouldn’t have been defeated by “blind particles bumping into each other” even though that’s an accurate description of the state of affairs at one particular level of explanation.
That particular 'level of explanation' leaves out the crucial involvement of the intelligent designer of the chess program. I would say that such a 'level of explanation' can never amount to accurate descriptions about what's going on. It's akin to the claim that "she was murdered by a bullet" is an accurate description at a certain level.
CR: ... general artificial intelligence (GAI)...
.. would also not be rational. Rationality requires freedom, responsibility, top-down control and personhood - all of which naturalism cannot ground.Origenes
March 7, 2017
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@Origenes
Yes, you said that already. My question is: on what basis?
I'm saying we're doing the same thing. It's the same process. It seems to me you have two choices here. Either you have an infallible means to identify and interpret a supposed source of moral values and duties, or you're making educated guesses and criticizing them. If the latter, on what basis are you operating on, Origenes? But, by all means, feel free to conjecture a third option I haven't though of, so we can criticize that too. But, actually, that would be the second option.
Wrong question.
Yes. That was my point. You're asking the wrong question. You wouldn't have been defeated by "blind particles bumping into each other" even though that's an accurate description of the state of affairs at one particular level of explanation. So, that's a parochial argument, in that it's intentionally narrow is scope.
Rationality requires a free responsible thinking person. A chess program does not understand anything — there is just symbol processing. There is not even someone ‘in there’ to understand anything. Therefor a chess program is not rational..
I didn't say it was, Origenes. A mere chess program would not represent general artificial intelligence (GAI). Any true GAI would be universal in that it wouldn't be specific to playing chess. We would get out genuinely new explanations that we didn't put in in. While we don't know how to program that yet, the reason it would be universal in scope wouldn't be "just signal processing", either. That's yet another parochial argument.critical rationalist
March 6, 2017
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critical rationalist @177:
Origenes: ‘Educated guessing’ on what basis?
You have to guess and then criticize those guesses.
Yes, you said that already. My question is: on what basis?
critical rationalist:
Origenes: P.s. ‘Rationalist’ on what basis? Blind particles bumping into each other?
If you played a game against a chess program and were defeated, were you defeated by atoms?
Wrong question. Rationality requires a free responsible thinking person. A chess program does not understand anything — there is just symbol processing. There is not even someone 'in there' to understand anything. Therefor a chess program is not rational.Origenes
March 6, 2017
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@Origenes
‘Educated guessing’ on what basis?
It’s a navigation problem. When you do not have infallible access to a map or an infallible means to interpret it, you guess as to where to turn. Or you might even decide to staying where you are for the moment, to go back, or even conclude that you don't actually want to get to where you were going after all. It’s the same with moral problems. No “text” can possibility describe in a completely unequivocal way what you’re supposed to do, even if it were actually correct. You have to guess what it means in the context of your moral situation. It’s a language problem. You have to guess and then criticize those guesses.
‘Criticizing’ on what basis?
How did you reach the conclusion that the Bible is an accurate and complete view of what God values and demands of us? Not from the text itself, because there are other texts that make the same claim. Nothing in your experience tells you that. So, if not that, then what? You ended up there via human reasoning and criticism.
‘Perfection’ by what standard?
There is no logical or rational means to force anyone to value the truth. One could decide to ignore or even actively work against it. So, that choice isn’t scientific or even philosophical in that sense. What is moral depends on whether you think all knowledge is conjectural and subject to improvement, as opposed to being right in that the final truth is already known. That is philosophical in nature. If the former is true, protecting the means to improving knowledge, and even improving and criticizing the knowledge of improving it itself, it is he most important thing. And that leads us to approximations, such as Harris’ human flourishing. Institutions and idea that suppress that growth are immoral. This is what I mean by holding morality hostage unless we accept your theological beliefs and their epistemological underpinnings. Unless morality cannot be improved there can be no morality. That idea that suppresses the growth of moral knowledge. Take homosexuality, for example, which is very controversial even amongst Christians. I know many that accept it whole heartedly and have reached that conclusion by facing the moral “problem” of having a LGBT relative, close friend or being LGBT themselves. Arguments are made about whether or not the prohibition is actually in effect today, just as there are arguments as to whether many other Old Testament laws are still in effect. Is that what God would really want if he exists? Why would God come between to people that love each other? Yet, despite all the talk of love and how central it is, I’m guessing many of you feel differently in that romantic love can only be between a man and a woman. And you will make arguments to suggest otherwise. Just as denying two people based on race or ethnicity, denying it due to gender is immoral is well. And it is perpetuated by the idea that the final truth is already known, as found in some holy text, etc.
P.s. ‘Rationalist’ on what basis? Blind particles bumping into each other?
If you played a game against a chess program and were defeated, were you defeated by atoms?critical rationalist
March 5, 2017
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critical rationalist @
So, when faced with moral problems, we make educated guesses as how to solve them, ...
'Educated guessing' on what basis?
... then criticize our guesses...
'Criticizing' on what basis?
... This doesn’t require us to actually have infallible access to moral perfection, ...
'Perfection' by what standard?
... but only to determine what is not and to discard it.
'Determine and discard' on what basis? --- P.s. 'Rationalist' on what basis? Blind particles bumping into each other?Origenes
March 4, 2017
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KF, Would it be correct that you too subscribe to the doctrine of divine simplicity?critical rationalist
March 4, 2017
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@hgp Harris is not a moral relativist. Neither am I. Just as some people were confused when they thought, since empiricism is nonsense, scientific knowledge must be nonsense as well. Am I correct in assuming you subscribe to the doctrine of divine simplicity?critical rationalist
March 4, 2017
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CR, you set up a strawman. Let me correct: 1: Our world requires a necessary being root as nothingness -- non-being -- has no causal powers so were there ever utter nothing, such would forever obtain. 2: The issue is, what kind of necessary being is at the root of reality. 3: We also are responsibly free and rational (or reasoned discussion such as this thread is an attempt at would collapse into absurdity). 4: That is we are morally governed under OUGHT in both reason and action. 5: Post Hume, this can only be grounded at the root of reality and this in a root that inextricably, inherently bridges the IS-OUGHT gap. 6: I have pointed out that there is just one serious candidate, after centuries of debate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing good in accord with our evident nature. 7: To object, simply put up a serious alternative root that does not readily lead to absurdities. In the case of evo mat, that includes undermining reason and implying that might and/or manipulation make "right" and "truth" etc. arguably, pantheistic and/or panentheistic proposals run into the problem of the one and the many, resulting in breakdown of responsible freedom and significance of the individual. 8: This puts ethical theism at focus, where God as neccessary, eternal being will either be impossible in the same way a square circle is, or else he will be actual. (The rhetorically convenient redefinition of atheism we often see fails to seriously address this.) 9: Maximal greatness implies good in all aspects (& not vitiated by that which is the privation, frustration or perversion of the good) and to superlative degree to the point of being nonpareil. Thus, yardstick, but in a sense accessible to sound reason on self evident first principles of general and moral reasoning. 10: As for the practical application, a yardstick is very important, always. So is taking goodness and moral governance as well as rationality out of the reach of might and manipulation make right power games. 11: I suggest that the inherent quasi-infinite value and significance of the individual [try to put a finite price on your life, mind or conscience, please and see if that is not inherently absurd . . . ] then points to our being in a community of the equally valuable, and morally governed. 12: Reason, right reason and linked responsible freedom balancing rights, freedoms and responsibilities -- justice -- then come to the fore. 13: in this context, we may recognise life as the first right as one robbed of life has no other rights left. In that context, respecting and loving neighbours who are as ourselves leads to a coherent and feasible framework for life in community, which is a necessary part of our existence from the womb on. 14: In that context, Locke's use of Hooker (thus onward, Moshe, Yeshvah and Paulo, Apostolo, Mart) then finds community focus in a high-point document of high historical importance, dated July 4, 1776:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security [--> thank God, the ballot box and principles of peaceful transfer of power on legitimate election gives us established, peaceful means; bought with blood and tears] . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
15: The sheer contrast between this pivotal document and the strawman pummelling rhetoric above reveals the absurdity of your fallacious, contempt-laced argument. 16: An absurdity that should be evident to any reasonably informed person -- right from the outset. KFkairosfocus
March 2, 2017
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critical rationalist @ 169: I want to inject some thoughts, that might clarify part of the existing communication problem in this thread. I think you don't take into account the difference between moral objectivism and moral subjectivism. It looks (to me) like you are talking in part about God's role in a subjectivist moral environment, while KF is talking about God's role in an objectivist moral environment. moral objectivism = the idea, that moral values exist independently of our personal feelings and knowledge of them. This position is held mostly by theists. moral subjectivism = the idea, that moral values are exclusively constructed (in some way) by humans. So when looking for an answer to any practical moral problem out there, moral objectivists and moral subjectivists are doing things, that might look similarly, but are different at an important level: The objectivist is trying to find the pre-existing moral values that can be applied to the situation at hand and how to apply them. The subjectivist on the other hand is trying to create moral values ex nihilo and/or based on an arbitrary foundation before trying to apply them. So for objectivists moral problem solving is a process of real moral knowledge-building. He is trying to approximate the existing moral values and their application in real life. The subjectivist can't build moral knowledge in the same sense. He is not able to approximate his knowledge to some moral reality out there, because he denies that this moral reality exists. There are only problems to be solved somehow without the possibility to ask the question: Is this the right solution? since there is no "right" solution for any standard to measure the "rightness" of moral systems doesn't exist and has to be (arbitrarily!) created. Moral subjectivism has several logical problems: Before the subjectivist can establish any moral knowledge he must answer the moral question, which process he will use to establish moral truths. So a moral question that must be answered before any moral knowledge is available; therfore the answer must necessarily be arbitrary. And (to a great degree) this arbitrary decision will have an overwhelming influence on which moral values will be established as knowledge, in other words: by the degree by which the outcome is influenced by this decision, the moral subjectivist doesn't have a moral system but an arbitrary value system that is arbitrarily labelled as "moral values". OTOH an objectivist is trying to approximate some outer reality and so does have a very different set of challenges. There exist four possible answers as to why should I submit to a system of moral values: 1) threat of force 2) possibility of gain 3) manipulation by others 4) insight into the correctness of the moral values Because every subjectivist moral system can be contested in the way described above, any of those systems can't compel anyone for reason no. 4 to follow it. And all the other reasons are not really compelling in themselves because they are amoral at best and mostly seen as immoral. But a moral system that has no moral reason to compel anyone to follow it, is next to worthless. A (good!) objectivist moral system OTOH might compel you or me by force of reason no.4 Any subjectivist system for *establishing* moral values necessarily relies on human input. Any human input might be either manipulative or not. Any moral system founded upon manipulative input hardly compels anyone to follow it in real life situations. So the moral question of which input to establishing a moral system has to discarded as manipulative must necessarily be answered before the moral system with which to answer the question is established. Since an moral objectivist doesn't try to *establish* moral values, he doesn't face this challenge. And to the degree that any moral subjectivist thinks that recursively using some subjectivist process to establish moral values, he must answer the question at which point (and how and why) the arbitrary (and possibly manipulative) input to those processes will loose its devastating influence. Why should we trust the last iteration of an arbitrary (and possibly manipulated) process to give us any foundation on which we can have a chance to trust the next iteration? Moral objecivists can talk about different moral view points because they are talking about an external objective reality. Moral subjectivists can only talk about moral differences (in any menaingfol way) to persons that have views sufficiently similar to their own views. Where those views are different enough there doesn't exist a language to talk about those differences (or has to be established at first, which is a very painful process). You are right that moral objectivists have a long way to go from the idea that moral values objectively exist to the point where they can know (some of) those values and apply them to real world situations. This way contains a lot of challenges and is not simple. It is possible that objectivists do make errors along this way. But the subjectivist faces the very different challenge of establishing that there even exists a way from his ideas to a sensible moral value system at all that might be able to compel anyone to act according to its values before he faces the challenges of finding that way. If there is no way for the subjectivist to any compelling moral system then any attempt at establishing moral values is an exercise in futility.hgp
March 2, 2017
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So, the question becomes, how does either one of us know rape is wrong?
Hahaha, if at first you don't succeed try, try again. "'critical rationalist', why is rape bad? __ Whoa, that might demonstrate the uselessness of the meaningless thesis I keep repeating about needing to be God to know God's morals are moral and the non-sequitur about our ability to do science meaning it has anything to do with morals. So, rather than be like the wood I am and just answer, I'm gonna identify as an NNF, try to turn the question on him and hope he eats the bait. So __ *deflect* - Two Atheists demonstrate English language is still understandable - __ Whoops, can't stop now __ *deflect* *deflect* *deflect* *deflect* *deflect*"Vy
March 1, 2017
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Vy, How do I know rape is wrong? Neither of us have infallible access to or a means to infallibly interpret a source of morality we can appeal to that will not lead us into error. So, the question becomes, how does either one of us know rape is wrong? Any arguments you would make that the Bible, our hearts, etc. accurately reflect maximal moral values or demands represents human reasoning and criticism. So, when faced with moral problems, we make educated guesses as how to solve them, then criticize our guesses.. This doesn't require us to actually have infallible access to moral perfection, but only to determine what is not and to discard it. So moral knowledge grows as an approximation.
But the real truth is that science is not based on empiricism, it’s based on reason, and so is morality. So if you adopt a rational attitude to morality, and therefore say that morality consists of moral knowledge—which always consists of conjectures, doesn’t have any basis, doesn’t need a basis, only needs modes of criticism, and those modes of criticism operate by criteria which are themselves subject to modes of criticism—then you come to a transcendent moral truth, from which I think yours emerges as an approximation, which is that institutions that suppress the growth of moral knowledge are immoral, because they can only be right if the final truth is already known. But if all knowledge is conjectural and subject to improvement, then protecting the means of improving knowledge is more important than any particular piece of knowledge. I think that—even without thinking of things like all humans are equal and so on—will lead directly to, for example, that slavery is an abomination. And, as I said, I think human well-being is a good approximation in most practical situations, but not an absolute truth. I can imagine situations in which it would be right for the human race as a whole to commit suicide.
Your position seems to be that morality, philosophy and science are very different things with very different explanations, just as there was though to be different explanations for the motion of apples and planets. I'm suggesting there is universal explanation for the growth of knowledge in all cases. Conjecture and criticism. Truth exists, just not in the sense that you think it does.critical rationalist
March 1, 2017
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KF, For the sake of argument, let’s assume the existence of a maximally great being necessarily results in maximally great solutions to moral problems. It’s unclear how this helps you, in practice, when faced with a moral problem unless you know which specific supremely good values or duties are relevant in that situation. Is stealing wrong? At best, you could say there is some applicable maximally great value or duty that that would inform you one way or the other, and someone would be bound to abide by it. But it’s unclear how you know what that is. What you would need is a way to infallibly identify which source actually contains a complete and accurate list of these supposedly maximally great values and duties, along with an infallible means to interpret those values and duties correctly in the context of that particular moral problem. For example, the claim that morality is written on our hearts in some inexplicable way is to claim to have identified a source of maximally great values and duties. It is an interpretation of your experience and a claim that knowledge comes from authoritative sources. It’s unclear how have infallibly distinguished this source from centuries of moral progress via conjecture and criticism of moral knowledge and your own views on what is right and wrong. Why should I be bound to "your opinion" about what a maximally great being would value or demand? This process is still ongoing. While there is a consensus between a great number of followers and scholars based on arguments and criticisms, there are still conflicting claims about which values and duties are actually maximally great, even among Christians. Human reasoning an criticism is the very thing that supposedly is incapable of binding anyone to moral values and duties. Any chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link and when I attempt to take your theory of morality seriously, for the purpose of criticism, it’s unclear how you can apply it to concrete moral problems that people face on a daily basis. Is practical application really a concern on your part? If so, how does that work in practice? Or do you have a way to infallibly identify and interpret a source of maximally great moral values and duties?critical rationalist
March 1, 2017
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I don’t see how you’re disagreeing with me
Shocka! At least it would be if that wasn't your FIFTH deflection. You've pretty much made it abundantly clear that your sight isn't that great.Vy
February 28, 2017
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KF: Very good work... as usual.Truth Will Set You Free
February 28, 2017
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Truth and Andy, cf 163 just above. KFkairosfocus
February 28, 2017
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TWSYF, And it's amazing, but not surprising, to watch people day after day, year after year, devote themselves to Anything But Truth. And we spiral downward faster, as you have observed. Andrewasauber
February 28, 2017
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A @ 162: The current "post-truth" movement is sheer madness, leading the world into a confused, chaotic, and dystopic future.Truth Will Set You Free
February 28, 2017
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