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Can we make software that comes to life?

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An interesting article talking about the progress, or lack thereof, in evolution of computer “life”.

Can we make software that comes to life?

A few choice snips:

On January 3 1990, he started with a program some 80 instructions long, Tierra’s equivalent of a single-celled sexless organism, analogous to the entities some believe paved the way towards life. The “creature” – a set of instructions that also formed its body – would identify the beginning and end of itself, calculate its size, copy itself into a free region of memory, and then divide.

Before long, Dr Ray saw a mutant. Slightly smaller in length, it was able to make more efficient use of the available resources, so its family grew in size until they exceeded the numbers of the original ancestor. Subsequent mutations needed even fewer instructions, so could carry out their tasks more quickly, grazing on more and more of the available computer space.

A creature appeared with about half the original number of instructions, too few to reproduce in the conventional way. Being a parasite, it was dependent on others to multiply. Tierra even went on to develop hyper-parasites – creatures which forced other parasites to help them multiply. “I got all this ecological diversity on the very first shot,” Dr Ray told me.

Hmmm… starts out complex and then gets simpler and simpler. Yup. That’s how Darwin described it. Right? Oh hold it. That was our side who said life had to begin with all the complexity it would ever have because RM+NS can’t generate CSI.

Other versions of computer evolution followed. Researchers thought that with more computer power, they could create more complex creatures – the richer the computer’s environment, the richer the ALife that could go forth and multiply.

But these virtual landscapes have turned out to be surprisingly barren. Prof Mark Bedau of Reed College in Portland, Oregon, will argue at this week’s meeting – the 11th International Conference on Artificial Life – that despite the promise that organisms could one day breed in a computer, such systems quickly run out of steam, as genetic possibilities are not open-ended but predefined. Unlike the real world, the outcome of computer evolution is built into its programming.

More Darwinian predictions confirmed? Hardly. Front-loading confirmed by computer modeling of evolution. Again.

His conclusion? Although natural selection is necessary for life, something is missing in our understanding of how evolution produced complex creatures.

Truer words were never said! 😎

By this, he doesn’t mean intelligent design – the claim that only God can light the blue touch paper of life – but some other concept.

Gratuitous disclaimer regarding ID required to get by peer review. Can’t leave that out. 😉

I don’t know what it is, nor do I think anyone else does, contrary to the claims you hear asserted,” he says. But he believes ALife will be crucial in discovering the missing mechanism.

Dr Richard Watson of Southampton University, the co-organiser of the conference, echoes his concerns. “Although Darwin gave us an essential component for the evolution of complexity, it is not a sufficient theory,” he says. “There are other essential components that are missing.”

Dangerously candid admission with only one ID disclaimer. Does this guy have a death wish or something? ❗

Here’s a clue, doc. The missing mechanism you’re searching for is commonly called “programmer” or “engineer”. Or in a more inclusive form a “designer”. 😛

One of these may be “self-organisation”, which occurs when simpler units – molecules, microbes or creatures – work together using simple rules to create complex patterns and behaviour.

Yeah, that would be one way. One imaginary way with no empirical support whatsoever. These things somehow just “self-organize”. No intelligence needed. They just poof into existence through some unknown laws of self-organization. Good science there alrighty. 🙄

Heat up a saucer of oil and it will self-organise to form a honeycomb pattern, with adjacent “cells” forming as the oil turns by convection. In the correct conditions, water molecules will self-organise into beautiful six-sided snowflakes. Add together the correct chemicals in something called a BZ reaction, and one can create a “clock” that routinely changes colour.

Ah, the old snowflake argument. The modern version of Darwin’s blobs of protoplasm are ice crystals. Now all that’s left is the minor detail of how snowflakes become complicated machines made of thousands of interdependent components each of which has its specification encoded in abstract digital codes. No great leap there. No sir. Space shuttles and computers, both of which pale in complexity compared to the molecular machinery in any single protozoan, form in same manner as snowflakes. There’s some real science for ya! 😯

“Evolution on its own doesn’t look like it can make the creative leaps that have occurred in the history of life,” says Dr Seth Bullock, another of the conference’s organisers. “It’s a great process for refining, tinkering, and so on.

What’s this? Someone gets it! Yay! 😀

But self-organisation is the process that is needed alongside natural selection before you get the kind of creative power that we see around us.” [Bullock concludes]

Crap. Spoke too soon. 😳

At least he got the requirement for organization right. Maybe Bullock will get a clue and figure out that complex things don’t just “self” organize like a magic origami. What a dope. Where do they find these clueless chuckleheads and how do they possibly get advanced degrees? 🙁

Comments
DaveScot Thanks, it look interesting. I'll try and get hold of a copy.GCUGreyArea
August 12, 2008
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GCUG Try reading Mike Gene's "The Design Matrix". I did. It's written by and for agnostic engineers like us. FPGAs never had the speed I needed in any of my hardware designs. I fell in love with PALs in the early 1980's and when they became electrically erasable several years later it was a match made in heaven as I didn't need tubes of fresh ones to get the logic debugged. I once did all the core logic for an i80486 motherboard in 22 discrete PALS (mostly 24 pin) and a handful of F-series TTL logic chips. I had no choice as the CPU was so new at the time no one had a core logic chip ready for it. All anyone had at the time was 80386 core logic that would work with it. I also didn't have room or budget for an L2 cache so I had to do my own DRAM controller. I coupled the CPU tighter than bark on a tree to the main memory, used CAS-only access for successive reads (prefetch and L1 cache misses) along with a bank width wide enough to fill the prefetch queue or an entire cache line. As I recall I eschewed the traditional methods of refresh and did it using a non-maskable interrupt off a timer where the interrupt handler scanned through the proper row addresses under software control. Man did that puppy fly through big-ass databases where the database was bigger than anyone's L2 cache. We sold a boatload of them to the Bank de Paris. Their people had some big spreadsheets they were using and traverses blew away the L2 cache in competing products so everything was a cache-miss and generated long penalty cycles. I didn't have an L2 so my memory cycles were much, much faster on average chomping through big databases. Recalcs on big spreadsheets were damn near an order of magnitude faster. And my design was far cheaper to manufacture without the hideously expensive static ram of a large L2 cache. I wrote the BIOS for that machine in addition to designing the motherboard hardware. A junior engineer did the printed circuit board layout under my supervision. I've done a lot PCB design too beginning in the 1970's with tape & mylar on a light table. My life got a lot easier there when we finally got enough power in a PC to configure AutoCAD for the layout and had it produce a laser-photoplot file through some third party software. Those were the days... before Dell I worked in a lot of small shops where I had to wear a lot of hats - hardware design, software design, printed circuit board design, manfacturing engineering, production test, customer service, basically everything from product specification through after-sales support. In parnership with Bull (formerly HoneyWell) we filled up a few 19" equipment racks with my single board ethernet workstations, I modified the network drivers so we could talk with IBM and Honeywell mainframes, and we put together a system for the currency trading office at the Bank de Paris in London where our quarter-million dollar machine put a multi-million dollar IBM mainframe out of business. We missed on the big score though. Chuck Missler owned the company, I was head of engineering, and he was putting together a deal with the Russians right after the end of the cold war when technology transfer restrictions were relaxed. My machine was on the table to go into every school in Russia. Millions of them if IIRC. $8 billion in total. If it happened it would have been the largest single computer deal in history up to that time. You can read a little about it here. Excutive staff meetings at that company were weird. Everyone except me was an Evangelical Christian. The meetings were opened with prayers. Fat lot of good that did. After that company folded I gave up on small companies and accepted a gig in laptop R&D at Dell. Took a big paycut, moved from paradise in Irvine Californa to blistering hot Austin Texas, but boy did the incentive stock options ever pay off 7 years later. Best move I ever made. DaveScot
August 12, 2008
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Borne @ 73 I’m not an atheist. There is a difference between believing that supernatural forces do not exist and believing that they are required for consciousness and free will. I’m agnostic all the way. Mechanistic does not necessarily imply deterministic, it all depends on whether genuine randomness is a feature of the universe. With any genuine random influences a system can never be described as purely deterministic because the random influences are, by definition, un-predictable. We don’t appear to know for certain (and maybe are incapable of knowing) if a mechanistic set of rules can produce free will. “why should anyone trust what any given pack of neurons has to say?” Why shouldn’t we? If that is all we are then it appears to be doing the job most of the time. As I already indicated the idea that an intelligently created universe might be mechanistic or even deterministic seems to me to be just as valid as hypothesising that it might not. Surely this is an important part of any scientific inquiry into the concept of Intelligent Design, not just speculation for arguments sake – or have you already decided what the designer would have or has done?GCUGreyArea
August 12, 2008
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GCUG ; "As far as calling all living things with mind mere matter and energy, the idea that this is atheist dogma is utter rubbish" And that is 'utter rubbish'. If anything is clear under atheist dogma it is that mind is mere matter and energy. Indeed, they have no other choice. If anything is also clear it's that humans are not ruled by purely deterministic, mechanistic laws. We have free will, volition, self-determination. Mind is not matter. It is necessarily metaphysical at any rate and different from the brain. Otherwise, as Francis Crick stated in "The Astonishing Hypothesis",
"You are nothing but a pack of neurons"
But if that were true, why should anyone trust what any given pack of neurons has to say? Or as Darwin expressed, why should we trust a monkey brain? And mentioning that this or that is possible is simply speculating for the sake of argument. Whatever. I suggest you take up the matter with Denyse O'Leary on the whole consciousness and mind thing before talking of conscious machines. Read her book "The Spiritual Brain" with neuroscientist Mario Beauregard.Borne
August 12, 2008
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GCUG wrote:
I pointed out an assumption, so what? I don’t have a problem being honest about my beliefs and I think I was being checked out well before I made any statements on my beliefs.
You say so. I think the readers will decide for themselves.
Ok, I’ll carry on being myself. So in what way was I playing dumb?
Recursive. You're a programmer, figure it out. I agree that FPGA's are cool. They are extreme simplifications of the design of neural networks. But quite interesting nonetheless. And you are quite right, that these designed perspectives are quite cool.parapraxis
August 12, 2008
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Borne @66 I’m quite happy with the idea of certain plant behaviour being classed as learning – actually I think it already is. I don’t remember mentioning a scientific consensus though. Most of the people in my field spend a fair amount of time arguing over what qualifies as learning, as opposed to adaptation, and will frequently qualify their terms because of the various definitions out there. My point was that your definition is so narrow that many things that are considered to be forms of learning would require the invention of a new word to describe them. All your definition seems to do is make the statement “Non-human systems can never learn” logically true according to your definition. Of course it can be easy to do the opposite and define learning in a way that makes the erosion of a river valley qualify as ‘learning’ but as I already said, scientists and philosophers working in the field do actually debate these definitions and refine our understanding of what can qualify as learning, rather than making dogmatic statements like “... machines will never be conscious learners, egos with will and personality.” I agree that knowledge is more than data storage, I never said it was. One definition of learning with regards humans is the acquisition of knowledge; another definition is the acquisition or modification of behaviour. When you learn to walk you are not developing an intellectual skill, you are modifying and refining parts of your nervous system. If a robot learns to walk it is, in my opinion, doing exactly the same thing – acquiring and modifying behaviour. As far as calling all living things with mind mere matter and energy, the idea that this is atheist dogma is utter rubbish. It is quite possible that we and the entire universe are governed entirely by rules that can be described in scientific (i.e. mechanistic) ways, and that this universe, and every living thing were intelligently designed. It is also entirely possible (given all the things we don’t know about consciousness yet) that certain types of AI software can be conscious, or that it requires the right kind of hardware but not specifically biological hardware. Consciousness, life and supernatural creators are not all the same thing; consciousness doesn’t have to be supernatural and even if it isn’t that doesn’t mean that our world wasn’t created.GCUGreyArea
August 12, 2008
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DaveScot @ 63 As you discovered, there are others using the same handle as me. Stating this is not obfuscation. When I googled it myself I discovered many comments by me, a few that looked like me that I have no memory of making, and others that weren’t by me, along with a few other things like an e-bay username that is defiantly not me. I don’t understand how this relates to design inferences? Where is the design in this? I don’t recall claiming that those other comments on the web occurred spontaneously. @ 64 I agree with you on the possible future of AI and ALife. I don’t see why your laws should be accepted. For the first one, fair point, we currently can only observe living systems producing living systems and work on understanding the possibility of a-biogenesis is slow – is that reason enough to declare that because we have not observed the origin of life that therefore life cannot have a naturalistic origin – how long should we wait before giving up in our attempts to answer the question. Your point has some validity but I don’t think we have done nearly enough work on the OOL question to give up just yet. On the second law, a big chunk of modern biology is about how intelligence may come about in living systems that are descendants of other living systems with less intelligence. Whilst you may disagree with the scientists’ interpretation of the evidence to support this, this is not enough to get your law accepted, or to demonstrate its inescapability. “I concede there is the possibility of exceptions to the laws” So, to borrow from Pirates of the Caribbean, they are more like guidelines then?GCUGreyArea
August 12, 2008
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Parapraxis @ 62 “You seem to think that a calculator with memory is intelligent.” I don’t remember saying that... I will also be impressed if I ever managed to replicate the behaviour of something as complex as an ant. “...repairing and self-healing of wounds,...” No amount of clever programming can get a desktop computer to repair its own circuitry, I would have thought that was obvious. With some clever material science and a bit of engineering you can make materials that self-repair without the need for any processing at all. That said, quite a lot of work is going on into re-configurable computing including one strand that uses genetic algorithms to generate functional logic systems using damaged parts of re-configurable chips (FPGA’s) Other strands use other techniques but they are all concerned with making more damage tolerant systems that can either repair or adapt to damage. A huge amount of work in robotics, AI and ALife is actually about engineering and hardware, not just general purpose computers and their software.GCUGreyArea
August 12, 2008
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Parapraxis @ 61 I pointed out an assumption, so what? I don’t have a problem being honest about my beliefs and I think I was being checked out well before I made any statements on my beliefs. “and just be yourself.” Ok, I’ll carry on being myself. So in what way was I playing dumb? “We also don’t think that the words ‘magic’ and ‘fairies’ were randomly generated by your mind, but imply something about your true beliefs.” So you assume. The word magic is used by some of my friends to refer to things they believe are real but that science can’t deal with, it is also used by some philosophers in a similar manner. I was trying to avoid the words ‘supernatural forces’ because I thought it would spark precisely the controversy that Magic did. “So, while your attempts at obscuring your beliefs may fly with fellow naturalistic evolutionists, they don’t fly with folks who perceive design.” Ok then, although it is none of your business and it is not dishonest of me to keep some or all of my beliefs to myself if I choose, I’ll try and elucidate. I believe that an intelligent origin for the universe, life etc (all or in part) is entirely possible; I believe that a natural origin for those things is also entirely possible. I have yet to be convinced that the diversity of life as we see it cannot be explained in mechanistic terms, or that living systems cannot come about through natural processes, or that we are at all close to being able to understand and explain these things assuming they are at all understandable. I am quite happy with the idea that the universe was designed to produce life, or that life was designed. If that means that “I lean more towards naturalism” in your view then so be it but I would not describe myself in those terms. Personally I would prefer that the universe had been created, and in particular that there is an afterlife – I really hate the thought of everything just coming to a stop when I die.GCUGreyArea
August 12, 2008
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DaveScot says,
1) life comes from life 2) intelligence comes from intelligence
Are you tired of hearing about regresses? Will I get myself banned if I go this route?CEC09
August 12, 2008
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GCUGreyArea
Simple conditioning (Operant and Pavlovian conditioning) can be fairly easily replicated in a machine and are defined as a form of learning.
Ok fine. Narrowing down to 'a form of learning' will get you through. Conditioning can be applied to plants, have they also learned? You mention scientific consensus? Thankfully, life goes on without it and it's not only scientists that define the meaning of words. Even with your definition, they still aren't really learning anything. Do they consciously know something in themselves? No, they do not have a self. Knowledge is more than data storage. Otherwise your hard drive knows a lot. Can you agree with that? My point is that machines will never be conscious learners, egos with will and personality. They will never be alive (the OP's point). We must not conflate the learning of living conscious things with software decisional matrices. That's tantamount to calling all living things with mind mere matter and energy. The atheist materialist dogma. A whole other issue.Borne
August 11, 2008
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And even with every adult human being on Earth spent all their days evaluating a new proposed mutant word processor for fitness, it will still not happen. It is clear that random mutation and a fitness filter, is inefficient (to say the least) compared to intelligent design of a computer program.William Wallace
August 11, 2008
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GCUG Fortunately for those of us working in the field we don’t define the term ‘intelligent’ to mean something that can do everything that a human being can do. Of course you don't. If you did then nothing accomplished in the field of artificial intelligence could be called intelligent. Our position here, or at least mine, is that it has been sufficiently demonstrated that humans can invent abstract codes that both specify and drive complex machines. Furthermore, there has been no demonstration that anything else in the universe has this capacity. I'm quite willing to concede that AI and AL is possible through human invention. In fact I consider it inevitable in the not too distant future if technology continues to progress at the current accelerating pace. FYI, I'm a fan of the technologic singularity hypothesis. But all that does is provide additional evidence of what, for all the empirical evidence we have, are inescapable laws of nature: 1) life comes from life 2) intelligence comes from intelligence The AI and AL, primitive as they are in comparison to human mind and body, that exists today would not exist without a preexisting intelligent mind to invent them and a preexisting body to instantiate them. Of course this raises the question of either a first intelligence (first cause) or an infinite regression of intelligence begetting intelligence. I'm sorry I don't have an empirical answer for that. Be that as it may the empirical evidence I do have all supports the two laws described above with absolutely no known exceptions. In any science except evolutionary biology when a great body of observation and with no known exceptions exists it is the basis of promoting theory to law. At this point in time the laws I described should be accepted as law but instead, due to dogmatic exclusion, what should be laws are not even granted the status of hypotheses. If find this a totally unacceptable corruption of science. I concede there is the possibility of exceptions to the laws but these must be demonstrated rather than imagined. In the meantime the laws remain unbroken. DaveScot
August 11, 2008
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GCUG I googled your handle here because you implied that there were others using the same name. I wanted to see for myself if that was true or an attempt at obfuscation. While there may be a few blog comments under that name that aren't obviously you there are some that obviously are you. You were "busted", or found out, in the attempted obfuscation. Kind of you to admit it after the fact but no admission was required. Design inferences are quite reliable in the cases where sufficient information is available to make them.DaveScot
August 11, 2008
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GCUG wrote:
Fortunately for those of us working in the field we don’t define the term ‘intelligent’ to mean something that can do everything that a human being can do.
Indeed. That is extremely fortunate. You seem to think that a calculator with memory is intelligent. And if you truly ever replicate the behavior of life so 'simple' as ants, or even bacteria, I will be impressed. And I'm not just referring to the overt behavior of establishing a domicile, but the collection of food for the group, repairing and self-healing of wounds, cooperation, and all of this without a helluva lot of processing power, I assure you, I will be impressed.parapraxis
August 11, 2008
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Yup, some of those comments may well be from me. Why is it so important to you to find out who I am? I haven’t felt the need to Google any of the other usernames on this forum. Why does identifying other comments that might be from me on the web mean I am ‘Busted’.
I think the reason for this is obvious to anyone who has read the comments to this post. It's also obvious in the above question. You counter statements with "You're making an assumption," without challenging the assumption. You seem to have a problem with being honest about your beliefs. All you had to say was, "I lean more towards naturalism. You're right, I'm a guy." And nobody would have felt the need to check you out. You try to make intelligent arguments, and play dumb at the same time. It makes people question your honesty. So, I'd recommend to you going forward, that you'd drop the charade , and just be yourself. We understand you don't believe in intelligent design, and we are okay with that. I think most of us don't buy that you are sitting right in the middle. We also don't think that the words 'magic' and 'fairies' were randomly generated by your mind, but imply something about your true beliefs. So, while your attempts at obscuring your beliefs may fly with fellow naturalistic evolutionists, they don't fly with folks who perceive design. Go ahead and be yourself, we're mature adults around here, we can handle it.parapraxis
August 11, 2008
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William Wallace: “Run it, evaluate as a word processor. ... Replicate, repeat.” You are correct, a random search like this might never come across a good configuration – The problem with an unguided search is that there is always the possibility that it will generate bad systems an infinite number of times and thus even with an infinite amount of time you might never get a result you want, even if it is among some of the random possibilities. Equally there is a small (Very Very small) chance that the first few configurations you generated produced a workable word processor. With enough time it is possible to get a computer to produce all the information you could possibly want, the problem is storing it, and sorting through all the useless stuff. It is all down to the fact that they can iterate.GCUGreyArea
August 11, 2008
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Borne: “Learn, as per humans, means to comprehend or understand by accumulation of knowledge, information and reason. “ I was using the term in the same way psychologists use it. Simple conditioning (Operant and Pavlovian conditioning) can be fairly easily replicated in a machine and are defined as a form of learning. If you want to set the bar for which behaviour qualifies as ‘learning’ so it is just above what we can produce on machines then that’s fine, but I suspect you will have to keep changing your definition – and I think almost every scientist I have ever met would disagree with your current definition anyway. “Did your robot learn to play poker and cheat? Does it know how to go buy groceries?” Of course not, and neither can a pet cat or dog – are you going to claim that dogs are incapable of learning? “A machine (program) that truly learns, would theoretically be able to ‘learn’ anything.” Can a pet dog learn anything; can a human for that matter. If the computer that the learning software runs on has finite computing power and storage capacity then there is an upper limit to the amount of data is can acquire. It can’t learn everything there is to know in the universe if it only has a 60GB hard drive. It is also limited by the nature and scope of the learning system (and to a large extent by its morphology) if it only has a keyboard and a screen then it can’t ‘learn’ to ride a bike. If its leaning software is based on semantics (i.e. abstract symbol manipulation) then it can’t learn to recognise someone’s face. “...science was light years away from anything like producing a Star Trekkie ‘Data’.” Yes, he was right and still is. We are a long way away from machines like that, like your professor I haven’t assumed they are impossible.GCUGreyArea
August 11, 2008
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F2XL: “I have yet to see any kind of software that can become more complex then itself without the aid of intelligent intervention. “ I would need to know what definition of complexity you are using before I could debate the point.GCUGreyArea
August 11, 2008
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Parapraxis: “Not only that, but there is emotion, irrationality, mental representation,...” Fortunately for those of us working in the field we don’t define the term ‘intelligent’ to mean something that can do everything that a human being can do. As I said before some of us would be would be happy to get a machine to show the same level of adaptability as an ant. One of the big problems with earlier AI research (sometimes called GOFAI or Good Old Fashioned AI) is that it concentrated too much on abstract reasoning as the key to making an intelligent robot. Personally I think there are many levels of AI, from the relatively simple pattern recognition devices to a machine that presents as a highly intelligent human. To assume that to be classed as Artificially Intelligent means you must have intelligence and behaviour to match a human being is to grossly over simplify the issue. “Now, to think that a human programmer and a computer engineer could get together and design an AI agent this complex is patently absurd.” As you said, you are incredulous, I am not.GCUGreyArea
August 11, 2008
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DaveScot: “That’s a complex specified combination. You’re busted. “ Yup, some of those comments may well be from me. Why is it so important to you to find out who I am? I haven’t felt the need to Google any of the other usernames on this forum. Why does identifying other comments that might be from me on the web mean I am ‘Busted’. I get the impression you think I am involved in some great swindle or something. All I wanted to do was debate the issue – or is that not allowed?GCUGreyArea
August 11, 2008
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I'd like to see the creation of a simple word processor using a true random voltage source connected to an analog to digital converter connected to a computer running any software. Start out with all 0s. Then start XORing in AD readings at addresses specified by a different AD. Run it, evaluate as a word processor. Replicate, repeat. I don't think we need to crunch the numbers to see how astronomically long it will take to get MS word, or whatever your favorite word processor is.William Wallace
August 10, 2008
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GCUGreyArea
Are you making a semantic point?
Yes, I suppose so if by that you mean a comment based on the meaning of the word learn.
A computer can learn if it is running software that has been written to learn. There LOTS of software applications out there that learn but of course it depends on how you define learn.
Indeed. Learn, as per humans, means to comprehend or understand by accumulation of knowledge, information and reason. So no computers do not learn. And neural network applications do not learn either. Not in the true sense of learning. Programming a machine (your robot) to detect and avoid obstacles is not making a learning machine. The robot has zero 'understanding'. It 'knows' nothing but the results of coded instructions. It merely follows instructions, no matter how complex they may be, the robot will never have will and personality. Robotics does not create anything that truly learns. Just some minor self-adjusting of pre-selected parameters - and that on extremely limited scales. Like obstacle recognition and avoidance. Did your robot learn to play poker and cheat? Does it know how to go buy groceries? Can it drive the car? Can it learn to make design inferences or deduce abstract philosophical concepts from visual data? I'm not trying to put down your program or anything, just clarify what the reality involved. A machine (program) that truly learns, would theoretically be able to 'learn' anything. You could probably program a robot (it's computer) to play poker. But will the robot ever really understand poker? Of course not. Understanding is far greater than accumulating bits of information for decision making algorithms. Yeah I studied CS in university too. It's been my job since around 1991. My robotics professor laughed at the sci-fi ideas about artificial life and learning computers etc. He had a good grasp of the true complexities involved and said (back then) that the science was light years away from anything like producing a Star Trekkie 'Data'. That's still true.Borne
August 10, 2008
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A computer can learn if it is running software that has been written to learn. I have yet to see any kind of software that can become more complex then itself without the aid of intelligent intervention. Do that and I will become just a tad bit more neutral towards ID rather then viewing it as primary truth.F2XL
August 10, 2008
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Edge of Evolution seems to become more and more relevant every day. It seems to be going through the same cycle as "Darwin's Black Box:" 1. It is considered by critics to have been poorly researched and refuted. 2. More findings show up to support his work. 3. People begin to realize that much if not all original criticisms of it were bulls%#& (cough: Ken Miller) 4. After some time the issues it brings up become debated 'till the brink of dawn. Seems like we skipped to step four already. :DF2XL
August 10, 2008
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Don't miss the Kauffman's keynote video on ALife XI conference, I was there.abtahizadeh
August 10, 2008
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Dear Dave "It happens many times every day when a baby is born or shortly thereafter." But it happens inside a living body, from living organisms ("stuffs"). Even if you are about to say something like "artificial child", I would like to know if we can keep everything 'completely' away from "living" "stuff" and create a "living" thing? BTW, my name is AMirabtahizadeh
August 10, 2008
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Dr. Seth Bullock: "But self-organisation is the process that is needed alongside natural selection before you get the kind of creative power that we see around us." For Dr. Bullock:
Abstract Self-ordering phenomena should not be confused with self-organization. Self-ordering events occur spontaneously according to natural “law” propensities and are purely physicodynamic. Crystallization and the spontaneously forming dissipative structures ofPrigogine are examples of self-ordering. Self-ordering phenomena involve no decision nodes, no dynamically-inert configurable switches, no logic gates, no steering toward algorithmic success or “computational halting”. Hypercycles, genetic and evolutionary algorithms, neural nets, and cellular automata have not been shown to self-organize spontaneously into nontrivial functions. Laws and fractals are both compression algorithms containing minimal complexity and information. Organization typically contains large quantities of prescriptive information. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces nontrivial optimized algorithmic function at its destination. Prescription requires choice contingency rather than chance contingency or necessity. Organization requires prescription, and is abstract, conceptual, formal, and algorithmic. Organization utilizes a sign/symbol/token system to represent many configurable switch settings. Physical switch settings allow instantiation of nonphysical selections for function into physicality. Switch settings represent choices at successive decision nodes that integrate circuits and instantiate cooperative management into conceptual physical systems. Switch positions must be freely selectable to function as logic gates. Switches must be set according to rules, not laws. Inanimacy cannot “organize” itself. Inanimacy can only self-order. “Self-organization” is without empirical and prediction-fulfilling support. No falsifiable theory of self-organization exists. “Self-organization” provides no mechanism and offers no detailed verifiable explanatory power. Care should be taken not to use the term “self-organization” erroneously to refer to low-informational, natural-process, self-ordering events, especially when discussing genetic information. [Boldface added] (D.L. Abel, J.T. Trevors, Self-organization vs. self-ordering events in life-origin models, Physics of Life Reviews, 2006)
"Self-organisation" is a nonsense term.j
August 10, 2008
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DaveScot wrote:
Unless I somehow missed an AI winning the Nobel Prize computers that can learn haven’t lived up to the glorious expectations of decades ago. Intelligence seems to be more than just learning. Someone needs to figure out how to code ambition, desire, insight, and intuition into a computer. Good luck with that.
Not only that, but there is emotion, irrationality, mental representation, symbolic thinking, multiple memory systems (semantic, episodic, and implicit), levels and dissociation of consciousness, defense mechanisms, arousal systems, autonomous and continuous regulation of all hardware functions (the body), sensation, perception, circadian rhythms, and on and on!! I think it's actually pretty important that the AI be able to be irrational. I don't know why I think that, I just do! :) Now, to think that a human programmer and a computer engineer could get together and design an AI agent this complex is patently absurd. Yes....for all those who are philosophically inclined, I am making an 'argument from incredulity.' And for the record, I plan to continue making that type of 'illogical' argument. ;)parapraxis
August 10, 2008
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CGUG "Not quite sure what you meant by that … what has gender got to do with it?" Oh---I did address you as "Dude", meaning I assumed you are a dude based on what I said about women vis a vis diplomacy.groovamos
August 10, 2008
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