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Can we make software that comes to life?

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An interesting article talking about the progress, or lack thereof, in evolution of computer “life”.

Can we make software that comes to life?

A few choice snips:

On January 3 1990, he started with a program some 80 instructions long, Tierra’s equivalent of a single-celled sexless organism, analogous to the entities some believe paved the way towards life. The “creature” – a set of instructions that also formed its body – would identify the beginning and end of itself, calculate its size, copy itself into a free region of memory, and then divide.

Before long, Dr Ray saw a mutant. Slightly smaller in length, it was able to make more efficient use of the available resources, so its family grew in size until they exceeded the numbers of the original ancestor. Subsequent mutations needed even fewer instructions, so could carry out their tasks more quickly, grazing on more and more of the available computer space.

A creature appeared with about half the original number of instructions, too few to reproduce in the conventional way. Being a parasite, it was dependent on others to multiply. Tierra even went on to develop hyper-parasites – creatures which forced other parasites to help them multiply. “I got all this ecological diversity on the very first shot,” Dr Ray told me.

Hmmm… starts out complex and then gets simpler and simpler. Yup. That’s how Darwin described it. Right? Oh hold it. That was our side who said life had to begin with all the complexity it would ever have because RM+NS can’t generate CSI.

Other versions of computer evolution followed. Researchers thought that with more computer power, they could create more complex creatures – the richer the computer’s environment, the richer the ALife that could go forth and multiply.

But these virtual landscapes have turned out to be surprisingly barren. Prof Mark Bedau of Reed College in Portland, Oregon, will argue at this week’s meeting – the 11th International Conference on Artificial Life – that despite the promise that organisms could one day breed in a computer, such systems quickly run out of steam, as genetic possibilities are not open-ended but predefined. Unlike the real world, the outcome of computer evolution is built into its programming.

More Darwinian predictions confirmed? Hardly. Front-loading confirmed by computer modeling of evolution. Again.

His conclusion? Although natural selection is necessary for life, something is missing in our understanding of how evolution produced complex creatures.

Truer words were never said! 😎

By this, he doesn’t mean intelligent design – the claim that only God can light the blue touch paper of life – but some other concept.

Gratuitous disclaimer regarding ID required to get by peer review. Can’t leave that out. 😉

I don’t know what it is, nor do I think anyone else does, contrary to the claims you hear asserted,” he says. But he believes ALife will be crucial in discovering the missing mechanism.

Dr Richard Watson of Southampton University, the co-organiser of the conference, echoes his concerns. “Although Darwin gave us an essential component for the evolution of complexity, it is not a sufficient theory,” he says. “There are other essential components that are missing.”

Dangerously candid admission with only one ID disclaimer. Does this guy have a death wish or something? ❗

Here’s a clue, doc. The missing mechanism you’re searching for is commonly called “programmer” or “engineer”. Or in a more inclusive form a “designer”. 😛

One of these may be “self-organisation”, which occurs when simpler units – molecules, microbes or creatures – work together using simple rules to create complex patterns and behaviour.

Yeah, that would be one way. One imaginary way with no empirical support whatsoever. These things somehow just “self-organize”. No intelligence needed. They just poof into existence through some unknown laws of self-organization. Good science there alrighty. 🙄

Heat up a saucer of oil and it will self-organise to form a honeycomb pattern, with adjacent “cells” forming as the oil turns by convection. In the correct conditions, water molecules will self-organise into beautiful six-sided snowflakes. Add together the correct chemicals in something called a BZ reaction, and one can create a “clock” that routinely changes colour.

Ah, the old snowflake argument. The modern version of Darwin’s blobs of protoplasm are ice crystals. Now all that’s left is the minor detail of how snowflakes become complicated machines made of thousands of interdependent components each of which has its specification encoded in abstract digital codes. No great leap there. No sir. Space shuttles and computers, both of which pale in complexity compared to the molecular machinery in any single protozoan, form in same manner as snowflakes. There’s some real science for ya! 😯

“Evolution on its own doesn’t look like it can make the creative leaps that have occurred in the history of life,” says Dr Seth Bullock, another of the conference’s organisers. “It’s a great process for refining, tinkering, and so on.

What’s this? Someone gets it! Yay! 😀

But self-organisation is the process that is needed alongside natural selection before you get the kind of creative power that we see around us.” [Bullock concludes]

Crap. Spoke too soon. 😳

At least he got the requirement for organization right. Maybe Bullock will get a clue and figure out that complex things don’t just “self” organize like a magic origami. What a dope. Where do they find these clueless chuckleheads and how do they possibly get advanced degrees? 🙁

Comments
Agreed but _I_ will decide when to close my mind, it is not up to you or anyone else to dictate it to me, or for me to dictate it to anyone else. I wasn't dictating. I was simply proposing a couple of laws of logic that will not admit of open mindedness. The principles of right reason are not mine, so I can hardly impose them on anyone. -----Actually on second thought I would go for a function of BC - always entertain the possibility that you are wrong! Well, I can understand keeping one's mind open on matters of science, since science is always provisional. That, however, is not the same thing as keeping our mind open about the principles of right reason that make science possible. Are you saying that we should also keep our mind open about both.StephenB
August 10, 2008
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CGUG Don’t assume that because my user name is taken from an Ian.M.Banks novel that other people have not done the same. We don't assume anything. We do make design inferences. For instance when I google your name I find a dozen or so blog comments where a person going by your name, involved in AI and robotics, interested in evolution and ID, even mentioning Bill Dembski. That's a complex specified combination. You're busted. :razz:DaveScot
August 10, 2008
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groovamos: "I’m sure this phrase ranked among the favorites of your coming up the academic ladder and helped open doors" Fair enough, I was rather abrupt and acerbic so I apologise. It can be a bit to easy to type harsher words in an anonymous forum than you might say in public. "(assuming a woman would have been more diplomatic)" Not quite sure what you meant by that ... what has gender got to do with it?GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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parapraxis @23 "you are wandering more towards the purely naturalistic side as your comments elsewhere on the net show." Don't assume that because my user name is taken from an Ian.M.Banks novel that other people have not done the same. I don't always use the same name for every discussion forum. (partly because this one is in already in use elsewhere)GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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GCUG: "rubbish! What my academic mentors taught me was not to be afraid to argue a point" Oh really? And I'm sure this phrase ranked among the favorites of your coming up the academic ladder and helped open doors: "Your comparison of ... indicate a poor understanding of...." Hey dude-- (assuming a woman would have been more diplomatic) -- I'm suggesting a little less arrogance.groovamos
August 10, 2008
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DaveScot: "We just don’t understand how or precisely when it happens and we can’t cause it to happen artificially." Of course one problem is that we may already have caused it artificially but we just don't recognise it. Without an identifiable mechanism or 'signature' all we can rely on is the reporting by an individual of a phenomenological experience, and we can only get that if we have a conscious ‘thing’ that can talk to us in a language we can understand (and we still might not believe it – I can program my computer to say ‘I am conscious’)GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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Borne: “Computers do not learn. “ Are you making a semantic point? A computer can learn if it is running software that has been written to learn. There LOTS of software applications out there that learn but of course it depends on how you define learn. I built a robot many years ago that ‘learnt’ to avoid obstacles. I designed a control program (I used a simple neural net) and gave the robot two types of sensor, one for proximity and the other for tactile contact (i.e rangefinders and bumpers). When the bumpers were active the neural net parameters began to randomise (a crude simulated annealing algorithm). Eventually (most of the time!) the robot would find a configuration that mapped proximity sensors to motors in a way that turned it away from obstacles before the bumpers made contact. Ok so it wasn’t the most intelligent robot but it did the job. Many of the neuroscientists I know use computers to model neural systems involved in learning with plenty of success – i.e. the software ‘learns’ in the same way that the biological system learns. Semantics aside, the computer is a substrate on which various computational systems can be instantiated. Physical matter is also a substrate upon which computers and humans are instantiated. If a purely materialist stance is taken then under us is just a mass of atoms, electrons and nuclear forces – perhaps we just do what we were designed to do, just like the computer only much more complex.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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DaveScot: “Just out of curiosity how long have you had your PhD and what was the subject of your dissertation?” I’ve had my PhD less than a year (but spend may years ‘in the wild’ before returning to academia) As for my PhD thesis I’m afraid I’ll keep that to myself. Unfortunately I once provided a route to my identity on a blog discussing these topics and got my in box (and university snailmailbox) inundated with religiously themed abuse and assumptions about my morality/sexuality/religion etc. Whilst I don’t think anyone contributing to this discussion will stoop that low, you never know who is watching ;) Just to make a general point to everyone, I didn’t enter this debate to brag about the length of my thesis, or admire the girth of other peoples experience, I regret even mentioning that I have a PhD as it should have no bearing on the strength or otherwise of mine, and other peoples arguments – half the fun of these discussions is not having your preconceptions clouded by what you know about other people’s background, and not being subject to cheap attempts at character assassination (or being tempted to do it yourself) I prefer to go on what you say, not what you have done.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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StephenB @29: [A] Keep the mind perpetually closed [B] Open the mind and close it on something solid [C] Keep the mind perpetually open Agreed but _I_ will decide when to close my mind, it is not up to you or anyone else to dictate it to me, or for me to dictate it to anyone else. Actually on second thought I would go for a function of BC - always entertain the possibility that you are wrong!GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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Ok, groovamos As far as being careful about what I say, if that is because the person I am arguing with likes to hurt people who disagree with them then I’m afraid I don’t respond well to threats. But I suspect you meant that I shouldn’t argue with people who have qualifications – rubbish! What my academic mentors taught me was not to be afraid to argue a point – if you think someone is wrong then don’t be afraid to say so, even if they are a world renowned professor – or your own PhD supervisors. Fortunately the people who helped me through my various degrees encouraged critical, robust debate. Yes I realise there are many academics posting o this board, I am one of them.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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You know, a statement by Richard Lewontin (which I originally found here) says a lot about the "God did it" issue: "We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." So after all possibilities have been exhausted, after all avenues have been explored, even then, they still won't even simply consider the possibility of a designer. That says a lot.jinxmchue
August 10, 2008
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abta Transforming material into consciousness is obviously a title belonged to science fiction comics. Not really. It happens many times every day when a baby is born or shortly thereafter. We just don't understand how or precisely when it happens and we can't cause it to happen artificially. But it does appear that all the materials, near as we can tell, that go into the new consciousness were inanimate chemicals and such. No matter or energy is created ex nihilo. If there's any additional "stuff" involved in the transformation we have yet to identify it. It doesn't follow there's not some unknown component involved and we can't rule out unknowns until we completely understand it how it happens.DaveScot
August 10, 2008
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GCUG We could get deeper into the question though and ask if life has a causal agent that might not be intelligent No, we can't and still have my either/or question remained unanswered. If the agency is unintelligent then the question is answered. This of course raises the question of how do we define intelligent agency. I define it as and independent entity with the ability to model reality in the abstract, make probability projections of different possible futures, and then manipulate matter/energy in a way that causes desired outcomes to fall out from the range of possibilities. Thus when we discover functional things which, by law and chance alone, have practically no chance of assembling themselves in a finite universe such as ours without planning aforethought, we have a reliable indicator of intelligent design. I concede that's a problematic definition in that strictly speaking the vehicles which completed the 2005 DARPA Grand Challenge would qualify as intelligent agents. But I'd argue that those agents are themselves subservient agents of another intelligent agency and hence don't strictly qualify with regard to independence. Feel free to help remove any ambiguity in the definition of intelligent agency. It's more difficult than it appears at first blush. DaveScot
August 10, 2008
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They just keep on ignoring the actual facts about ID. Transforming material into consciousness is obviously a title belonged to science fiction comics.abtahizadeh
August 10, 2008
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GCUG: "Ok, I’m always careful;" A little less so than I would be if I didn't know about the field of expertise of the person to whom I reply. “Your comparison of a typewriter and computer indicate a poor understanding of computer science." Would you indicate such to a person known to you as using the C++ language for many years on a large project? Maybe Granville was too busy to elaborate, but I think what he was saying was a simplistic version of what I was saying about software developers ultimately being rule makers in their specialized areas. BTW there are many academics posting to this board.groovamos
August 10, 2008
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Correction on @29: There are actually three choices. [A] Keep the mind perpetually closed [B] Open the mind and close it on something solid [C] Keep the mind perpetually openStephenB
August 10, 2008
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GCUG Actually, as far as thought experiments go, imagine we are software running in a simulated reality. What possible experiment could be run that would tell us if we're real or not? Epistemology got a lot more complicated for me when I realized the theoretical extent of artificial reality. By the way, I've been a professional in the microcomputer hardware/software design business since the 1970's. My last gig was senior programmer/analyst in R&D (laptop BIOS coder was my occupational specialty there) at Dell computer from 1993 to 2000. I haven't been particularly involved in any computer development work since then but near as I can tell nothing's changed very much. Just out of curiosity how long have you had your PhD and what was the subject of your dissertation? I was also on the patent committee there for the last couple of years and reviewed about a thousand patent abstracts for value in following up with a PTO filing. We did a lot of original work in factory automation. When I left we were measuring the "human touches" it took us to get from components sitting on supplier shelves to finished products sold and delivered in seconds. Minutes became too coarse of a measure to track it accurately. All of our in-house systems - order entry, accounting, inventory management, were all integrated with our suppliers and major customers in-house systems. Orders were placed on websites customized for each of our major customers and within seconds of placing an order the parts needed to fulfill it came off the loading dock (our suppliers owned the inventory until it came off the truck and we didn't take it off the truck until it was needed to fulfill an order). The single most difficult challenge in our build-to-order (BTO) system was automated software configuration - loading the proper hardware device drivers, O/S, and all the application software, registered and ready-to-run when the customer turned on the computer. We offered such a wide range of build-to-order options that it was impossible to do what our competitors did which is have pre-built hard disk images for each configuration we offered for sale as our permutations were literally in the millions. We filed and were granted scores and scores of BTO-related patents along the way. In my almost unique position (there were only a dozen engineers on the patent committee) I had rather intimate knowledge of how everything worked even though it was outside my specialty. Anyhow, with regard to robotics, here's something I'd been following but hadn't checked up on for a few years (I think the last time was prior to the completion of the 2005 race): DARPA Grand Challenge Are you familiar with it? DaveScot
August 10, 2008
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The purpose of opening the mind is to close it on something solid. -----GCUGreyArea: "You have to open your mind first if you want to close it on something." Yes, that's right. There are two choices: {A} To open and then close WHEN APPROPRIATE [B} To Open and leave open. I am proposing {A} and you are proposing {B}. -----"Not that that is a good quote anyway, I don’t think closing your mind categorically on anything is a good idea." How about the proposition a thing cannot be and not be at the same time or that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time? Will you close your mind on those two?StephenB
August 10, 2008
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Borne @24: Splendid comments. This is going to be a great thread. All we need is an injection of materialist ideology to prime the pump.StephenB
August 10, 2008
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StephenB: "—–”The purpose for opening the mind is to close it on something solid.” G. K. Chesterton." You have to open your mind first if you want to close it on something. Not that that is a good quote anyway, I don’t think closing your mind categorically on anything is a good idea.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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DaveScot: “Unless I somehow missed an AI winning the Nobel Prize computers that can learn haven’t lived up to the glorious expectations of decades ago. Intelligence seems to be more than just learning.” Quite right, but in reality we are surrounded by the products of AI research, from the plethora of computer vision systems and voice recognition to banking credit scoring algorithms and signal routing methods in the telecommunications industry. There are plenty of challenges that were regarded as pivotal in AI research that turned out to be a non-essential mechanistic component, and AI research in general has spent a lot of time exploring blind alleys (IMHO). I’m a ‘bottom up’ AI person – I’ll be happy if I can get one of my robots to function as well as an ant. I partly agree with your point about two competing theories but it does rather over-simplify the problem. If we stand well back then there are two competing hypotheses, one is that life has an intelligent causal agent and the other is that it does not. We could get deeper into the question though and ask if life has a causal agent that might not be intelligent, or that did not intend to create life. We can develop many theories regarding the scope and nature of a causal agent, all of which are in competition. On the other side we have the hypothesis that the origin of life can be explained naturalistically. From this perspective there can be many theories that explain the mechanisms behind biogenesis, all competing with each other.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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-----GCUCgreyarea: "Why should I have to decide which side of an imaginary fence I should stand? I much prefer to wander around in the middle." Would you prefer to remain there indefinitely? -----"The purpose for opening the mind is to close it on something solid." G. K. Chesterton.StephenB
August 10, 2008
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GCUG :
"Your comparison of a typewriter and computer indicate a poor understanding of computer science. A computer can be programmed to learn, a typewriter cannot
Well no, not really. Computers do not learn. Computers execute instructions. Binary instructions are just so many 0's and 1's passing through electronic logic gates and 'memory'. There is nothing like 'learning' the way humans learn in binary machines. Computers never get smarter or more knowledgeable, they merely accumulate bits. So in fact the computer-typewriter comparison is good. The difference is in logic gates, instruction sets and memory.
...Typewriters do only what you tell them to do in the moment, they don’t remember or make decisions based on stored information."
Computers are exactly the same, they only do what they are programmed to do... and even then. It is the programmer that writes decisional code before execution that, underneath, are nothing more than 0's or 1's taken as true or false constructs for if-then-else etc. instructions. No matter how complex it gets, it's still just electrons flowing through logic circuits and memory building coded information that the computer itself has no clue about. So no there will never be computer life or consciousness. There can never be 'will' and thus personality in mere electricity.Borne
August 10, 2008
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What word would you use to describe real phenomena that cannot be explained by some naturalistic mechanism?
I'm not sure you need a single word. The way you wrote it out in your question was fine. Or do you mean to assert that the words "magic" and "fairies" have no connotations as to the intent of the person who uses them?
As for the Fairies reference, well I’m no fan of Dawkins but I was trying to make the point that problems with one theory are not in themselves evidence in support of another theory.
That's not what it sounded like to me. If you are wandering around in the "middle" as you call it, you are wandering more towards the purely naturalistic side as your comments elsewhere on the net show.parapraxis
August 10, 2008
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Groovamos: Ok, I’m always careful; my PhD is in Computer Science, AI and Robotics (with a small dose of ALife) Eventually, if you develop the typewriter by adding more features and functions you end up with a word processor. Add some more features and you have a general purpose computer attached to a printing device. Yes, you are right; any software system has to work within the rules, as does any hardware system – as far as I know no hardware system can violate the laws of physics, no software system can compute the incomputable. What computers can do very well is perform mathematical operations on stored data. If we can describe a system mathematically at every level then in theory we can simulate it to the same level. IF that system is a human in an environment then the simulated human should be capable of all the things real humans are (except being able to exist outside its own simulated universe). Now, if this were possible then the simulated human ought to be conscious. If not then the simulation is flawed, or consciousness is impossible to simulate OR consciousness is of no value (i.e it makes no difference to the ability of a human to function). And of course the other possibility, as I have already hinted, it that only certain substrates can generate consciousness and a computational construct is not one of them. (BTW I’m not claiming we will ever be able to practically realise such a simulation, this is a philosophical thought experiment)GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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Dave Scot @16. On chance & necessity vs. intelligence & design. -----"There’s no state that falls in between those two." Excellent! By invoking the principle of non-contradiction you have made a slam dunk case. It really is an "either or" proposition. The analogy that follows dramatizes the point very well.StephenB
August 10, 2008
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Parapraxis: I have no particular preference with regards to naturalism or supernaturalism. Naturalistic science may be able to explain everything in the universe, it may not – I don’t know. Why should I have to decide which side of an imaginary fence I should stand? I much prefer to wander around in the middle. I didn’t realise that the word ‘Magic’ was a ploy, it was the first word I thought of that seemed to fit (with the qualification I provided). What word would you use to describe real phenomena that cannot be explained by some naturalistic mechanism? If there is a more politically correct one then I’ll use it instead. As for the Fairies reference, well I’m no fan of Dawkins but I was trying to make the point that problems with one theory are not in themselves evidence in support of another theory. As DaveScot pointed out a problem with one explanation can make another explanation look more appealing but it can also make ANY other explanation more appealing.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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GCUG No need to put on your thinking cap. Just read Michael Behe's "The Edge of Evolution". ID predicts that random change constrained by the temporal and physical resources of the earth's environment is unable to produce the novel biological constructs that delineate higher taxonomic classes of living things. Behe tested this prediction by examining what a couple of the fastest, most prolific, and best studied reproducers on the planet were able to do in the way of novel solutions to intense challenges to their survival. What they were and were not able to accomplish fell well within the bounds of what ID predicted are the bounds of unintelligent processes. During the period studied P.falciparum replicated more times than all the organisms spanning the evolutionary distance between reptiles and mammals. Even under the most intense artificial selection pressure (manmade drugs) and natural selection pressure (limited geographic range) the organism was only able to conjure up novel solutions where there were 3 or fewer interdependent random genetic modifications. Yet despite this we are asked to believe that in far fewer replications where each replication is an opportunity for heritable change to occur, reptiles by chance & necessity alone somehow acquired all the novel biologic structures that separate them from mammals. Non sequitur. DaveScot
August 10, 2008
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GCU, So I suppose you might tell me I am incorrect in my assumption??
So what makes you think I have a naturalistic perspective anyway?
You either are or you aren't. Which is it? Your frequent reference to 'magic' is a typical ploy of naturalistic evolutionists. So, go ahead and state your position instead of just saying that I have made an assumption. Your whole 'fairies' reference puts you in the camp with Dawkins. If you are otherwise...state it.
I’ll put my thinking cap on.
Will you? I'm looking forward to the results of your 'thinking cap.'parapraxis
August 10, 2008
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“And I have never figured out how to argue with someone like you who believes his own consciousness could be an entirely mechanical process, such as what goes on in a computer.” I have made no statements about what I believe on this subject. parapraxis “Are you saying that consciousness has no mechanism(s)?” I made no statement either for or against a mechanistic explanation for consciousness, I simply pointed out that from a scientific perspective no specific mechanism has been identified as being required for consciousness to happen - apart from the obvious thing that we have only observed consciousness in biological brains and that brains still function when we are unconscious. “How does that fit into your naturalistic perspective? . . . A function without a mechanism.” No, there *MAY* be a mechanism, it might be magic or, as some philosophers believe, we may all have misunderstood the phenomena. So what makes you think I have a naturalistic perspective anyway? If there is no mechanism and no magic behind consciousness (i.e it is an illusion – as some would have us believe) then there is apparently nothing in the way of a machine becoming conscious because consciousness does not require anything to exist. If there is magic behind consciousness (BTW I use the term magic to mean some real thing that cannot be described mechanistically – it is not meant as an insult or as a derogatory term) then again there may not be a barrier that prevents a machine becoming conscious. If there is a mechanism then, once we know what the mechanism(s) are, we are left with the question of whether there are other mechanisms that can produce the same effect, and are we able to build them. Of course we can also wonder if the brain is a ‘magical mechanism’ in that consciousness has a magic element that can only be ‘invoked’ by the right mechanism (a brain), in which case we still have the question of whether there are other (non-brain) mechanisms that can invoke the same magic and produce consciousness. “Evidence that goes against naturalistic evolution is taken only as “just evidence that there are still things to be discovered and understood…”” Yes, precisely. One of the things to be discovered and understood might be a causal agent. My point still stands though, if I were to theorise that invisible fairies keep aeroplanes and birds aloft then finding a problem with a mechanistic explanation of flight (i.e. aerodynamics) would not be evidence to support the existence of my fairies. “Let’s start out with some predictions that ID would make” I’ll put my thinking cap on.GCUGreyArea
August 10, 2008
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09
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