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Claimed link between creationism and “conspiracism”

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All Seeing Eye, Dollar, Conspiracy Theory, Illuminati At Current Biology:

Teleological thinking — the attribution of purpose and a final cause to natural events and entities — has long been identified as a cognitive hindrance to the acceptance of evolution, yet its association to beliefs other than creationism has not been investigated. Here, we show that conspiracism — the proneness to explain socio-historical events in terms of secret and malevolent conspiracies — is also associated to a teleological bias. Across three correlational studies (N > 2000), we found robust evidence of a teleological link between conspiracism and creationism, which was partly independent from religion, politics, age, education, agency detection, analytical thinking and perception of randomness. As a resilient ‘default’ component of early cognition, teleological thinking is thus associated with creationist as well as conspiracist beliefs, which both entail the distant and hidden involvement of a purposeful and final cause to explain complex worldly events. (open access) Pascal Wagner-Egger, Sylvain Delouvée, Nicolas Gauvrit, Sebastian Dieguez, “Creationism and conspiracism share a common teleological bias” at Current Biology , Volume 28, Issue 16, Pr867-r868, August 20, 2018 DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2018.06.072

Wow. These authors must feel quite threatened. They are really reaching. Their two topics cannot even be equated as concepts: Creationism is a position on a specific subject (origin of life and the universe); conspiracism, which is more commonly called “conspiracy thinking,” is a tendency of thought (it’s all a Big Plot, you see…) which may be applied to any position on any subject.

And, of course, the perception of a plan or a pattern behind events (“teleological thinking”) is not, in isolation, evidence of creationism or conspiracy thinking, though it would be a necessary component of both. It would also be a necessary component of a marketing strategy or a blueprint.

Maybe the authors assume, naively, that their own worldview is simply a neutral, non-biased, non-limited view of the facts. But everyone thinks that about their own worldview. People sheltered by an enforced consensus can afford to assume that their assumption is simply true, hence this kind of stuff gets written and published on a regular basis.

But why do they feel so threatened?

See also: At New York Times: Darwin skeptic Carl Woese “effectively founded a new branch of science” In fairness, many of us DID sense that the people splintering lecterns in favor of Darwin’s Tree of Life were more certain than the facts would turn out to warrant. Every so often, a new poll would announce, to general hand-wringing, that much of the public doesn’t “believe in” evolution. Most of us didn’t fight with anybody about it, we just waited… A world where horizontal gene transfer is a “thing,” (and epigenetics and convergent evolution as well) actually makes a lot more sense from experience than the “selfish gene” world.

and

Sociologist: How ID foxes can beat Darwinian lions

Comments
ET, all are addressed in the weak argument correctives. KFkairosfocus
August 28, 2018
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Hold. The. Press- What about the conspiracy claim that Intelligent Design is just a Trojan horse for Creationism? Or the conspiracy of teleological language undermining science?ET
August 27, 2018
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Although some Darwinian Atheists in this thread, apparently because of the patent absurdity of denying teleology, would like to hold on to some type of teleology, the plain fact of the matter is that without reference to 'immaterial mind', and the 'intentionality' inherent therein, there simply can never be 'real' teleology within nature or within ourselves. As Dr Egnor elaborates:
Teleology and the Mind - Michael Egnor - August 16, 2016 Excerpt: From the hylemorphic perspective, there is an intimate link between the mind and teleology. The 19th-century philosopher Franz Brentano pointed out that the hallmark of the mind is that it is directed to something other than itself. That is, the mind has intentionality, which is the ability of a mental process to be about something, rather than to just be itself. Physical processes alone (understood without teleology) are not inherently about things. The mind is always about things. Stated another way, physical processes (understood without teleology) have no purpose. Mental processes always have purpose. In fact, purpose (aboutness-intentionality-teleology) is what defines the mind. And we see the same purpose (aboutness-intentionality-teleology) in nature. Intentionality is a form of teleology. Both intentionality and teleology are goal-directedness — intentionality is directedness in thought, and teleology is directedness in nature. Mind and teleology are both manifestations of purpose in nature. The mind is, within nature, the same kind of process that directs nature. In this sense, eliminative materialism is necessary if a materialist is to maintain a non-teleological Darwinian metaphysical perspective. It is purpose that must be denied in order to deny design in nature. So the mind, as well as teleology, must be denied. Eliminative materialism is just Darwinian metaphysics carried to its logical end and applied to man. If there is no teleology, there is no intentionality, and there is no purpose in nature nor in man’s thoughts. The link between intentionality and teleology, and the undeniability of teleology, is even more clear if we consider our inescapable belief that other people have minds. The inference that other people have minds based on their purposeful (intentional-teleological) behavior, which is obviously correct and is essential to living a sane life, can be applied to our understanding of nature as well. Just as we know that other people have purposes (intentionality), we know just as certainly that nature has purposes (teleology). In a sense, intelligent design is the recognition of the same purpose-teleology-intentionality in nature that we recognize in ourselves and others. Teleology and intentionality are certainly the inferences to be drawn from the obvious purposeful arrangement of parts in nature, but I (as a loyal Thomist!) believe that teleology and intentionality are manifest in an even more fundamental way in nature. Any goal-directed natural change is teleological, even if purpose and arrangement of parts is not clearly manifest. The behavior of a single electron orbiting a proton is teleological, because the motion of the electron hews to specific ends (according to quantum mechanics). A pencil falling to the floor behaves teleologically (it does not fall up, or burst into flame, etc.). Purposeful arrangement of parts is teleology on an even more sophisticated scale, but teleology exists in even the most basic processes in nature. Physics is no less teleological than biology. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/08/teleology_and_t/
bornagain77
August 25, 2018
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DS, it is fair to expect reasonably informed participants to deal with the substantial core of an issue and with relevant evidence. We are dealing with open acknowledgement of imposition of censorship by evolutionary materialistic scientism (aka naturalism) in the peer reviewed literature. A cat out of the bag admission by a leading member of the guild is relevant (Lewontin) as is a remark by another (Provine). There are many others. The policy-shaping remarks and actions of the US NSTA and NAS c 2000 - 2005 and on are relevant, as are associated actions by activists who shaped outcomes at that time. In that context, it is material that there has been a narrative that pretends that scientism does not rule the roost, used to induce sections of the public (including the religious public) to go along with the censorship. The implication of that censorship is plain: announcements and claims by the scientific establishment on matters tied to the design inference are tainted by question-begging, sustained abuse of positions of trust to impose ideological agendas that cripple science from unfettered pursuit of truth, and frankly by lawfare leading to unjust imposition under colour of law. Those are sobering issues, that now are taking a very dark turn as credit card agencies use SPLC smears to join the digital empires in censorship and de platforming. Maybe, you have forgotten how the Revelation speaks of how no man could buy or sell save he took the mark. That, is where we now are. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2018
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F/N: Pinker is yet another inconvenient voice inadvertently exposing the agenda of evolutionary materialistic scientism which comes out in the opening words of the main argument for the paper in the OP. Let's clip again, noting how studiously key issues have been dodged:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that functions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological] it persists in childhood cognition, [–> loaded subtext, implying childishness on the part of the despised, dismissed other] as well as in adult intuitions and beliefs [1 , 2]. [–> “persists” continues in force, so adults who believe that “life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent” are automatically childish and by definitional fiat antiscience] Noting similarities between creationism (the belief that life on Earth was purposefully created by a supernatural agent) and conspiracism, [–> projection, and guilt by invidious association] we sought to investigate whether teleological thinking [–> dismissed as antiscience by definition at the outset and further silently dismissed as not being possibly true, material evidence having been suppressed] could underlie and associate [–> oh, we are diagnoising your delusions, borderline lunacy] both types of beliefs.
Let us note, they speak of BANNING teleological reasoning in science. This implies censorship power and use of that power, in a peer reviewed paper that sets out to characterise creationists as indulging ill-founded conspiracism. Given what is going on with the digital empires, that should give us serious pause. Then, let us note the highly relevant meaning 3 for naturalism, from AmHD:
nat·u·ral·ism (n?ch??r-?-l?z??m, n?ch?r?-) n . . . 3. Philosophy The system of thought holding that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.
In short, evolutionary materialistic scientism -- the force of "naturalism" -- implies that science under materialistic censorship monopolises knowledge and reality. That is central, regardless of deflection attempts by advocates, enablers, fellow travellers (even religious ones), dismissive talking points and the like. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2018
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jdk, It is interesting how JAD's question reflects an expectation that you should already have prepared something like a file of position papers on, at least, public figures perceived to be on the same "side" as you in these debates. [To expand slightly on your post #120] I propose a rule (really just a reminder): Participants are responsible for defending or criticizing their own views only. Obviously the views of non-participants are a legitimate topic, but no participants have pledged allegiance to Lewontin, Pinker, etc, AFAIK.daveS
August 25, 2018
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JAD writes, "Why aren’t you criticizing Pinker?" Because Pinker is not here having a discussion with me. I've never even ever read anything by Pinker. And I don't agree with his statement that "In other words, the worldview that guides the moral and spiritual values of an educated person today is the worldview given to us by science." As I have been saying, I don't think science is the pathway to all knowledge.jdk
August 25, 2018
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Key exchange headlined: https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/science-worldview-issues-and-society/revealing-in-thread-exchanges-on-the-imposition-of-evo-mat-scientism-naturalism-and-on-the-tactics-to-deflect-attention-from-that/kairosfocus
August 25, 2018
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JDK, as you know or should know, "millions" have been indoctrinated with the premise behind the opening remark in the paper I have put on the table since comment 6:
Main Text Although teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning, [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that functions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological]
The questions I asked a few days ago regarding imposition are still relevant and are still unanswered. Which is itself revealing. That's a smoking gun. So is the indubitable parallel to the well known remarks by eminent scientist Lewontin which you tried to dismiss with a laugh. Tellingly, you have been silent on the parallel since I began to lay it out in 88:
Consider key parallel no. 1: Pascal Wagner-Egger, Sylvain Delouvée, Nicolas Gauvrit, Sebastian Dieguez, annotated, Aug 2018: >> teleological thinking has long been banned from scientific reasoning . . . [–> banned by whom, on what grounds, when, with what sound inductive warrant, given say discovery of alphanumeric code, thus language that funcyions algorithmically in the heart of the living cell? Coded language and programs are inherently teleological]>> vs. Lewontin, annotated, 1997: >>It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [–> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons].>> Do we see the ideological imposition and its consequences for science and for truth-seeking?
Going further, it is notorious and obvious from the just cited that a dominant and domineering faction in science, science education and linked policy-influencing circles advocates or enables evolutionary materialistic scientism, indeed in a recent discussion we had here at UD it emerged that this is a key component of much of so-called naturalism. I remind, from AmHD, sense 3:
nat·u·ral·ism (n?ch??r-?-l?z??m, n?ch?r?-) n . . . 3. Philosophy The system of thought holding that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.
However, this whole scheme is inherently, inescapably self-referentially incoherent and self-falsifying, thus false and misleading. Indeed, it dresses falsity in the lab coat and sets out to establish it with power and manipulation. Precisely the might and/or manipulation make 'truth,' 'right,' 'rights,' 'knowledge,' 'justice,' etc that I have often warned against. But I get ahead of myself. Let's review. For one, scientism as summarised in AmHD as it defined naturalism, in effect implies that evolutionary materialism circumscribes reality (which is by its insistence physicalist) and infers then insists that all "real" or serious knowledge is therefore scientific. Whatever knowledge claims others make on other grounds are either nonsense (the delusional perceived demons in Lewontin's and Sagan's language) or are trivial and displaced once big-S Science comes knocking with its evolutionary materialistic agenda. The obvious problem with Lewontin's "science [is] the only begetter of truth," or the claim summarised by AmHD "all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural [= evolutionary materialistic] causes and laws" is that this is, necessarily a philosophical claim, an epistemological one. So, it self-destructs. Going further, the evolutionary materialism reduces our minds, consciences etc to GIGO-driven computation on a material computational substrate, brain tissue in effect. That instantly undermines rationality, responsibility, knowledge and bodies of knowledge. That has stood on the table since Haldane's telling observation:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
Reppert draws out the computational substrate issue (echoing and extending Leibniz):
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
In short, we see here the imposition of the sort of crooked yardstick I pointed out in 86 above and have also headlined separately:
. . . there is a silly little mental game we can consider. [The Crooked Yardstick Effect:] Step one, define that a certain crooked yardstick, S, is the standard of straight, accurate and upright. Once that is done, no stick I that is genuinely so can ever conform to S: I != S. So on the S-standard I will always be rejected. This seems silly, until it is in place on an ideologically tainted matter, ask, how can we move from S to the incommensurable I. Only, by interposing a plumbline P that you are willing to accept is naturally upright and straight. But, if you are committed to S, you may well refuse to acknowledge P. So, if we can be led to set up a false standard S, it can be self-sustaining in the teeth of all corrections, until something catastrophic forces a change. Resemblance to too much of political (and so also military and ideological) history is NOT coincidental.
Therefore your ad populem/ bandwagon argument is not only a fallacy but a pernicious technique in establishing a crooked yardstick. The ruinous effects are increasingly evident all around us. But of course, all of this is in a sense secondary. Underlying is a battle for truth and submission to truth rather than to the power brokers of some ideology or another as a core principle of science. Where, what is truth is also in the stakes. If science seeks to discover and provide support for accurate description of the facts and principles/laws of the empirical world through observation, experiment, hypothesis, testing, analysis, discussion etc, then it must be free to follow the evidence. The sort of ideological captivity to evolutionary materialistic scientism that is yet again being exposed inadvertently, therefore speaks volumes. Going on, the key issue at stake is freedom to follow the import of discoveries and massively evident facts on the table. For instance, from 1953, alphanumeric code was found to lie at the heart of the cell, in DNA (and by extension in RNA and proteins, thence the working of the living cell). This is language and algorithms with associated storage, reading and execution machinery that may be profitably studied by comparing von Neumann's 1948 on kinematic self-replicating machine framework -- I often abbreviate, vNSR. Moreover, such functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (FSCO/I for handy short) have -- per trillions of observed cases and blind needle in haystack search-challenge analysis alike -- precisely one empirically and analytically plausible cause: origin by intelligently directed configuration, aka design. Which is of course purposive. Going back a step, it is trivial to observe that language is inherently intentional and purposive, with algorithms and associated machinery constituting a capital example, here, a cybernetic system. Trivial and patent, but demonstrably ideologically banned by the evolutionary materialistic scientism establishment. The evidence of what 100 trillion cells in our bodies screams, design and purpose, is being suppressed by imposition of a crooked yardstick. The implications of such imposed and established error and folly for our civilisation cannot be good. (But of course, pointing out such dangers -- even by someone who has lived through two societies marching off the cliff -- is silly apocalypticism, to be dismissed without serious consideration. As, obviously, is the sort of exposition laid out above.) It is time for serious rethinking and for taking seriously the obvious plumb line tests: [a] the necessity of responsible rationality for even science to be done (so the only viable worldviews are those with room for that -- and evo mat scientism is not one of these); [b] the patent reality of code, language, algorithms and associated execution machinery in the living cell (so that purpose in the world is massively evident through scientific study, regardless of silly bans such as we see announced in the paper discussed in the OP). The power of the plumb line is that it is naturally straight and upright. But many will studiously ignore its correction to the crooked yardstick. As we have seen in and around UD for years. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2018
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jdk wrote,
But science is not about all of reality. Science is limited to a certain type of investigation: it doesn’t, and can’t, study everything that we know and believe.
But it’s okay for atheists, like Will Provine, to argue that science shows that “There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either.” And he’s not alone. Do you want a longer quote from Stephen Pinker who unabashedly promotes scientism-- the view that science can serve as a basis for one personal world view Pinker writes,
[that] the findings of science entail that the belief systems of all the world’s traditional religions and cultures—their theories of the origins of life, humans, and societies—are factually mistaken. We know, but our ancestors did not, that humans belong to a single species of African primate that developed agriculture, government, and writing late in its history. We know that our species is a tiny twig of a genealogical tree that embraces all living things and that emerged from prebiotic chemicals almost four billion years ago. We know that we live on a planet that revolves around one of a hundred billion stars in our galaxy, which is one of a hundred billion galaxies in a 13.8-billion-year-old universe, possibly one of a vast number of universes. We know that our intuitions about space, time, matter, and causation are incommensurable with the nature of reality on scales that are very large and very small. We know that the laws governing the physical world (including accidents, disease, and other misfortunes) have no goals that pertain to human well-being. There is no such thing as fate, providence, karma, spells, curses, augury, divine retribution, or answered prayers—though the discrepancy between the laws of probability and the workings of cognition may explain why people believe there are. And we know that we did not always know these things, that the beloved convictions of every time and culture may be decisively falsified, doubtless including some we hold today. In other words, the worldview that guides the moral and spiritual values of an educated person today is the worldview given to us by science.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114127/science-not-enemy-humanities Why aren’t you criticizing Pinker?john_a_designer
August 24, 2018
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Strawman Alert:
But science is not about all of reality.
1- I didn't say anything about "all of reality" 2- You aren't the one who can make such proclamation, anyway. 3- I never said we had to study everything that we know and believe. And if we know it that would mean we already studied it Science can explore our origins. And science cannot run by dogma, which is the opposite of what you are trying to say is OK. Only dogma disallows teleological thinking from science, Jack. This is worse than what the Church dogma did. At least they had something right. In the end, if there was a scientifically testable alternative to ID , then we could say science doesn't need it so it is OK to disallow it- teleological thinking.ET
August 24, 2018
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But science is not about all of reality. Science is limited to a certain type of investigation: it doesn't, and can't, study everything that we know and believe.jdk
August 24, 2018
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If we were created for a reason and science is about reality, ie the truth to our existence (in this case), then science has to include teleological language or else it is a work of fiction. It is actually doing more harm than good by not allowing us to find and fulfill our purpose. Period. End of story. It makes me wonder what Jack thinks science is aboutET
August 24, 2018
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JAD, what do you think of my example in 103? Is there a difference between a strictly scientific explanation and one that also includes teleological explanations?jdk
August 24, 2018
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jad writes, "jdk claimed, “Many millions of religious people (and thus not atheists) agree that teleological explanations do not have a place in scientific explanations.” That’s a logically fallacious ad populum argument." I'm not arguing that they are right just because they are lots of them. That would be the fallacy you mention. I am arguing that the presence of so many people makes it clear that there are different beliefs among people, so that the statements of one person (say Provine) can't be taken as a definitively true statement about the situation: that is just one person's belief.jdk
August 24, 2018
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JAD: Yes, Provine believes that. So does Lewontin. There are materialists, so of course that is what they believe. But, many millions of religious people don't agree with them. Millions of religious people believe, as I explained above, that science limiting itself to non-teleological explanations is the proper scope for science, but that teleological explanations are critical to one's understandings that go beyond science. Science doesn't include all knowledge, understanding, or belief. People like Provine or Lewontin don't speak for everyone. Just quoting them doesn't not settle anything other than stating what a materialist thinks, and the majority of scientific literate (or the general populace) are not materialists.jdk
August 24, 2018
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daves, If we were created for a reason and science is about reality, ie the truth to our existence (in this case), then science has to include teleological language or else it is a work of fiction. It is actually doing more harm than good by not allowing us to find and fulfill our purpose. Did you see "Men in Black"? Right now we are exactly what the cockroach said.ET
August 24, 2018
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“The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.”
“The one place that has observers is the one place that also has perfect solar eclipses.”
“There is a final, even more bizarre twist. Because of Moon-induced tides, the Moon is gradually receding from Earth at 3.82 centimeters per year. In ten million years will seem noticeably smaller. At the same time, the Sun’s apparent girth has been swelling by six centimeters per year for ages, as is normal in stellar evolution. These two processes, working together, should end total solar eclipses in about 250 million years, a mere 5 percent of the age of the Earth. This relatively small window of opportunity also happens to coincide with the existence of intelligent life. Put another way, the most habitable place in the Solar System yields the best view of solar eclipses just when observers can best appreciate them.”
From what I understand the eclipses have given us a window into many scientific discoveries of light spectra and one even help confirm Einstein's equation for gravity's affect on light. (the above quotes are from "The Privilege Planet") Our just-so rotation that mixes the atmospheric gases so we can live from pole to equator. How the heck did cosmic collisions do that? It isn't like we are a gas giant so the figure skater effect doesn't apply. We allegedly were bombarded from all angles.ET
August 24, 2018
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ET, I was just giving an example, and meant to include scenarios such as the one you described as well. Any situation where we were deliberately created by a Designer for a reason, really.daveS
August 24, 2018
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john a designer- Jack doesn't care. Read his pathetic analogy, his special pleading and emotional response. But he ain't no steekin' materialist, (wink, wink)ET
August 24, 2018
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Cornell University professor William Provine made the following claim in his 1994 debate at Stanford University with Phillip Johnson:
“Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear, and I must say that these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposeful forces of any kind, no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be completely dead. That’s just all—that’s gonna be the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either.”
He’s very clearly claiming that since science shows no ultimate purpose and meaning in nature human existence has no ultimate meaning and purpose. jdk claimed, “Many millions of religious people (and thus not atheists) agree that teleological explanations do not have a place in scientific explanations.” That’s a logically fallacious ad populum argument.john_a_designer
August 24, 2018
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To repeat, many people have religious beliefs that the universe and human life have meaning and purpose, but also believe that explanations about such meanings and purpose are not part of science.
And many more believe otherwise. And your analogy is a joke as it has nothing to do with what we mean by teleological thinking in science. We're talking about the origins of the universe, the physical laws, the formation of the just-so solar system we have and our own just-so earth moon system, and you bring up someone thanking God for an accident that spared him from death. Why didn't God just let him live through the crash? Do you have no shame, sir?ET
August 24, 2018
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daves:
If JAD (and you) are talking about a purpose such as “you were brought into existence to love God” or something along those lines, I agree that of course I don’t believe I have such a purpose.
Oh my. No, and I don't understand how you got there from what I said. A purpose would be something we have to do/ fulfill. Put the pieces together, figure out what the puzzle says and follow it. One example would be the purpose illustrated in "The Privileged Planet"- that our place in the universe was intelligently designed for scientific discovery. Discover those puzzle pieces and find the prize. A purpose beyond whatever you can ever achieve now. The bringing together of humanity to find and fulfill its destiny. That purpose.ET
August 24, 2018
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JAD, did you understand my points in 99 and 94? To repeat, many people have religious beliefs that the universe and human life have meaning and purpose, but also believe that explanations about such meanings and purpose are not part of science. Here's a simple example, which I've used before, although I don't recall that anyone has ever addressed the distinction I'm making with the example. A man misses an airplane flight because a newspaper flies in front of his car on the way to the airport, causing a small accident, and thus causing him to miss his plane. The plane crashes and all aboard are killed. The man then expresses the quite orthodox Christian belief that God spared him: that it was not part of God's plan that he die that day. A scientific explanation of the situation would mention all the physical causal factors (the wind, the flying newspaper, the auto accident, the circumstances that caused the plane to crash, etc.) The scientific explanation would not include the explanation that this all was God's will. The fact that the scientific explanation does not mention God does NOT mean that science is denying God's existence: it just means that the teleological presence of God is not something that falls in the domain of science to investigate.jdk
August 24, 2018
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jdk:
Many millions of religious people (and thus not atheists) agree that teleological explanations do not have a place in scientific explanations.
I would need evidence for that. I could easily say billions of others do.
Also, I know that many here believe that teleological explanations do have a place in science, which is the topic of this thread,
They definitely do and have since the time of the ancient Greeks like Plato and Aristotle. Fast forward to Sir Isaac Newton, the father of modern science, who definitely allowed teleological explanations into his science. Laplace helped stop that but with nothing but hand-waves and concepts he didn't understand. Darwin tried to get rid of Paley but now we know he also failed.
but I want it to be clear that those that do believe this are just a subset of all religious people.
Except they are the subset, ie those who say what you claim.ET
August 24, 2018
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ET, If JAD (and you) are talking about a purpose such as "you were brought into existence to love God" or something along those lines, I agree that of course I don't believe I have such a purpose. Referring back to JAD's post, I'm certainly up for debating the existence of God, but I'm not trying to convince anyone there is no purpose for their existence. In fact, unless the other person brings it up, I don't really care what their religious beliefs are.daveS
August 24, 2018
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If there is no purpose to the universe or life here on earth then there is no ultimate purpose for human existence. That’s what atheists say that science says. But if that’s true, how do they know it and what is the point of convincing everyone else it is true. Here is a quote from article cited in the OP:
Because teleological and animist thinking are part of children’s earliest intuitions about the world and are resilient in adulthood [8, 9], they thus could be causally involved in the acquisition of creationist and conspiracist beliefs. However, our results do not rule out the possibility that acceptance of such beliefs could, conversely, favor a teleological bias. Yet, in both cases, the ‘everything happens for a reason’ or ‘it was meant to be’ intuition at the heart of teleological thinking not only remains an obstacle to the acceptance of evolutionary theory, but could also be a more general gateway to the acceptance of anti-scientific views and conspiracy theories.
In other words, we are all “hardwired” to believe that there is some sort higher purpose evident in nature. How does the atheist come to the dogmatic conclusion that this intuitive sense of purpose is all an illusion that needs to be suppressed? What’s the argument?john_a_designer
August 24, 2018
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to JAD: Many millions of religious people (and thus not atheists) agree that teleological explanations do not have a place in scientific explanations. To single out atheists as believing this is true misconstrues the situation. I know we've been over this many times, and it's not the subject of this thread. Also, I know that many here believe that teleological explanations do have a place in science, which is the topic of this thread, but I want it to be clear that those that do believe this are just a subset of all religious people.jdk
August 24, 2018
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daves- The purpose you speak of is not the purpose being discussed. We are more interested in the purpose to our existence.ET
August 24, 2018
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But if you have science saying one thing- the one that goes against what you know to be true because of the preponderance of evidence- even the scientific kind- that is akin to what john a designer is talking about. Then you get atheists jumping all over what science sez to rub it in the faces of those who know better.ET
August 24, 2018
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