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Commenter Apparently Believes that Only Part of Darwinian Evolution is “blind/mindless/unguided.” Maybe, if We Ask Nice, He Will Enlighten Us Poor Benighted ID Slobs About Which Part is “Seeing, Mindful and Guided.”

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In the comment section to a prior post commenters “Joe” and “AVS” are having a tussle over whether Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided.  It is fascinating and instructive.  Let’s see.

First, Joe asked: “How does one test anything wrt unguided evolution?”

To which AVS responded:  “The fact that you call it “unguided evolution” tells me everything I need to know about you. One of those things is that trying to talk to you about science would be like trying to talk to a wall.”

This is an interesting response, because some of the leading Darwinists in the world have noted that evolution is a blind unguided process.  One would have thought that the proposition that Darwinian evolution is unguided was uncontroversial, and Joe responded as by posting the following quotes:

Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic. UCBerkley

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?

AVS responds with the inevitable “quote mining” accusation when Darwinists are quoted to support a proposition:  “SO you mash two quotes up from two unrelated people and repeat them completely out of context?”

Joe asks:  “How are the quotes out of context?”

AVS responds to my question about why he believes Joe took the quotes out of context:

I’m saying that evolution has both random, or blind/mindless/unguided processes as Joe here likes to call them, as well as having non-random processes. You need both parts,and it’s the second part that you and your friends here like to ignore apparently.  Maybe you can explain to Joe why he’s so clueless.

In summary:

1.  Joe says that Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, and he quotes, among others, Dawkins, to back that up.

2.  AVS says Joe does not know what he is talking about and that he mined the Dawkins quote.

3.  When asked to demonstrate how the Dawkins quote has been taken out of context, AVS says that evolution is part random and part non-random.

Let’s evaluate AVS’s argument, such as it is:

He asserts that Darwinian evolution has a “random” component and a “non-random” component, and that is true enough.  The random component is the random changes that occur in the genome through, for example, random genetic mutations.  The non-random part is, of course, natural selection, which takes the random changes in the genome and “selects” for those that increase fitness.

Here’s where AVS falls overboard.  He characterizes only the “random” component of Darwinian evolution as “blind, mindless and unguided.”  Apparently, he believes that the non-random component (i.e., natural selection) is not “blind, mindless and unguided.”

But that is just Joe’s point.  BOTH parts of the Darwinian evolution equation are blind, mindless and unguided.  That is Dawkins’ point as well when he says that even natural selection (the non-random part AVS) is blind.  By blind, mindless and unguided, Joe (and Dawkins) mean that Darwinian evolution does not have foresight.  It cannot plan for distant goals.  It has no purpose.  They do not mean that it is entirely random.

To the extent that AVS denies that any part of Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, he must mean that some part of it is seeing, mindful and guided.  But that is obviously false.  AVS has mistakenly equated “non-random” with “not blind, mindless and unguided.”

In summary, therefore, AVS owes Joe an apology on two counts:  (1) for falsely accusing him of taking the quotes out of context; and (2) for ridiculing him when he himself is the one who is obviously wrong.

The irony, of course, is that even in his obvious error AVS plays the typical blustering Darwinist – serenely confident in his own intelligence and rectitude even when he is glaringly wrong.  I will leave you with this:  AVS compares his knowledge to Joe’s and says  he, AVS, is the “person who has forgotten more biology” than Joe will ever know.  Pathetic?  Laughable?  Both?  I will let the readers decide.

Comments
Barry Arrington - in reply to your comment which is the 24th one: So if no one is calling NS completely random, then what exactly is the argument? AVS made the statement that as NS is not entirely random, it is guided. Is this the point being refuted?Cassie
January 9, 2014
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My guess is that the analogy of the antenna with Darwinian processes is flawed in many ways. The most basic flaw is that the process was designed by an intelligence with a specific objective unless one wants to make the claim that the Darwinian process was designed (I do but for very limited objectives). The major flaw is that the desired outcome for the antenna is built into the process but there is no specific outcome built into the Darwinian process. This is obviously the most basic flaw in the analogy. From the Wikipedia article
These are then evaluated to determine how well they fulfill the design requirements
A somewhat analogous process to Darwinian processes might be to change the fitness evaluation each time. One time it might be rf based and another it might be flexibility based and a third time it may be whether it can withstand heat or cold. A fourth might be an aesthetic judgment by person A while a fifth could be an aesthetic judgment by person B. A series of fitness criteria could be developed that would vary by trial. My guess is that the antenna would never approach much that is very useful as the shape shown in the Wikipedia article
has a complicated asymmetric shape that could not have been found with traditional manual design methods.
It would fail the aesthetic criteria in some cases and in other cases might not be best in the heat or the cold or flexibility and the examples that might be best for rf purposes would be discarded and none would appear in future iterations. It wouldn't be long before we had a mishmash. The antenna example is like WEASEL in the sense that it has the final design criteria built into the selection. But in Darwinian evolution there is no design criteria by definition. Or is there? Another flaw is that the changes are preselected from appropriate parts. There are no twig branches or pieces of cloth or plastic spoons or pieces of biological matter that are randomly made part of the design. This is like having already appropriate proteins available for the process when we know that the real issue is how do these proteins or gene sequences arise in the first place let alone an appropriate protein. There would have to be a separate process that took fundamental parts such as pieces of metal, cloth, plastic, wood, biological matter etc and in a separate process construct the parts to be added. What would be the fitness for these parts? How would they be selected and which of the many possible fitness criteria would be used for the selection. No the antenna analogy if done like Darwinian evolution would lead to a dog's dinner not a chef's haute cuisine.jerry
January 9, 2014
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Mr. Phipps you claim:
Quantum mechanics are very much part of the natural world and so part of nature and well within the scope of naturalism.
Well Okie Dokie, I'm glad you finally agree that God is 'natural', see you at church Sunday for your baptism! :)
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett's Inequality verified to 80 orders of magnitude) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
Because of advances in quantum mechanics, the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) (from Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797)(Of Note: Max Planck Planck was a devoted Christian from early life to death, was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God.
Verse and Music:
Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Alison Krauss – Down in the River to Pray https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VLKngHexeU
bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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Bornagain77, huh ? It is you that is limiting what you think is natural to what looks to be Newtonian physics ! Quantum mechanics are very much part of the natural world and so part of nature and well within the scope of naturalism. You need to try another strawman. That one fell apart.Lincoln Phipps
January 9, 2014
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correction: Its time for you to join the 21st century QUANTUM physics Mr. Phipps and throw off you quaint, but ludicrous, notions that there are no beyond space and time actions worth considering in physics.bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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My Phipps you claim in regards to finding quantum entanglement/information in DNA:
My point was that humanity doesn’t actually fully understand how this works but many ID say it can’t be nature but something else.
Actually Mr. Phipps, as was made abundantly clear previously, 'humanity' does have a very good understanding that quantum entanglement/information requires a non-local, beyond space and time, cause in order to explain its effect (Bell, Aspect, Leggett, Zeilinger). The people who do not understand this, indeed as you are now clearly demonstrating, the people who WILL NOT understand this are determined Darwinists of the atheistic mindset who refuse to accept any 'spooky action at a distance' into their thinking. They are stuck in 19th century view of physics that has been overthrown. Its time for you to join the 21st century classical physics Mr. Phipps and throw off you quaint, but ludicrous, notions that there are no beyond space and time actions worth considering. Of note; What Does Quantum Physics Have to Do with Free Will? - By Antoine Suarez - July 22, 2013 Excerpt: What is more, recent experiments are bringing to light that the experimenter’s free will and consciousness should be considered axioms (founding principles) of standard quantum physics theory. So for instance, in experiments involving “entanglement” (the phenomenon Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”), to conclude that quantum correlations of two particles are nonlocal (i.e. cannot be explained by signals traveling at velocity less than or equal to the speed of light), it is crucial to assume that the experimenter can make free choices, and is not constrained in what orientation he/she sets the measuring devices. To understand these implications it is crucial to be aware that quantum physics is not only a description of the material and visible world around us, but also speaks about non-material influences coming from outside the space-time.,,, https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-does-quantum-physics-have-do-free-will also of note: An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html In fact Mr. Phipps, despite your prior commitment to allowing only within space and time material causes to be considered 'science' (i.e. methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that outside space and time causes are now found in all sorts of different places within the field of molecular biology. For instance, protein folding belongs to the world of quantum physics, not classical physics: Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/ As well we find this 'spooky action at a distance (Einstein) to be present within photosynthesis as well: Quantum Mechanics at Work in Photosynthesis: Algae Familiar With These Processes for Nearly Two Billion Years - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: "We were astonished to find clear evidence of long-lived quantum mechanical states involved in moving the energy. Our result suggests that the energy of absorbed light resides in two places at once -- a quantum superposition state, or coherence -- and such a state lies at the heart of quantum mechanical theory.",,, "It suggests that algae knew about quantum mechanics nearly two billion years before humans," says Scholes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100203131356.htm At the 21:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr Suarez explains why photosynthesis needs a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its effect: Nonlocality of Photosynthesis - Antoine Suarez - video - 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1268s etc.. etc... footnotes: Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html Fine Tuning Of Universal Constants, Particularly Light - Walter Bradley - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491552bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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For starters, transcription and translation. Error correction requires knowledge- what to fix and how to fix it.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Joe, you said "Ummm THAT is what the debate is about. YOU don’t get to just baldly assert that what happens in a cell is spontaneous." OK so what happens in a cell that is not spontaneous ?Lincoln Phipps
January 9, 2014
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bornagain77, you have just confirmed what I have said as I mentioned the "quantum scale". 'mere' chemistry has a quantum element given it involves electrons. My point was that humanity doesn’t actually fully understand how this works but many ID say it can't be nature but something else.Lincoln Phipps
January 9, 2014
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Lincoln, I have thought about it. I have used, debugged and programmed GAs. They are design all the way down. The programmer doesn't need to know how to construct the antenna- he designed a program to do it. Again, if someone designs a program to do something, and it does it, then it did it by design. Period, end of story.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Joe, try really thinking about it; the programmer has no idea how to design an antenna i.e. they have no idea about the mathematics of RF design and more importantly neither does the GA. After they run the GA they still remain clueless as to why the shape is what it is. All they know is that it is probably fit. There is a vast difference between understanding "fit" and RF design.Lincoln Phipps
January 9, 2014
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Mr. Phipps you would like to believe:
firstly it is reasonable to state that the chemical actions in the cell happen spontaneously i.e. it doesn’t need the finger of an ID to be telling the cell what to do like some manager.
Yet despite what you would prefer to believe Mr. Phipps, 'mere' chemistry cannot even begin to explain finding non-local, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement/information in molecular biology (on a massive scale no less):
Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight - 2009 Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html Quantum Entanglement Holds DNA Together, Say Physicists - June 28, 2010 http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419590/quantum-entanglement-holds-dna-together-say-physicists/
Here Quantum Action is confirmed to be in DNA by direct experiment;
DNA Can Discern Between Two Quantum States, Research Shows - June 2011 Excerpt: -- DNA -- can discern between quantum states known as spin. - The researchers fabricated self-assembling, single layers of DNA attached to a gold substrate. They then exposed the DNA to mixed groups of electrons with both directions of spin. Indeed, the team's results surpassed expectations: The biological molecules reacted strongly with the electrons carrying one of those spins, and hardly at all with the others. The longer the molecule, the more efficient it was at choosing electrons with the desired spin, while single strands and damaged bits of DNA did not exhibit this property. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110331104014.htm
bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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LP:
firstly it is reasonable to state that the chemical actions in the cell happen spontaneously i.e. it doesn’t need the finger of an ID to be telling the cell what to do like some manager.
Ummm THAT is what the debate is about. YOU don't get to just baldly assert that what happens in a cell is spontaneous. And hey, if you don't like ID all you have to do is step up and demonstrate the power of natural selection- yet you can't, no one can.Joe
January 9, 2014
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bornagain77, firstly it is reasonable to state that the chemical actions in the cell happen spontaneously i.e. it doesn't need the finger of an ID to be telling the cell what to do like some manager. But humanity doesn't actually fully understand how this works though given the vast amount of content put out by ID/creationists you would think they knew exactly how these chemicals function down to the quantum scale. They don't. No one does. It is the ID bluff and in the gaps in our knowledge they start claiming it's all impossible except by . They trip over themselves to race to what they consider to be impossible through chance but they all have a fundamental flaw and that is that they not only do not know how life formed, they are convinced that it did not form by chance. By ignoring differential survival rates they create a self-fullfilling prophesy. They assume proteins are a certain size but skip over what possible functionality exists from the current life proteins to small polypeptides. They skip over this because they don't know how functional those chemicals are. They skip over co-evolution of small polypeptides and nucleic acids. They assume DNA (or RNA) bursts into life from nothing to hundreds of thousands of bases through a random event. They don't consider the events from the pre-biotic Earth to the first cell because they don't know how this happened. It is nothing and then bazinga, a cell. In effect they are slapping a probability on a creation event, claim it can't be chance and thus creation. They haven't shown how a cell could form and they do not know how a cell could form gradually. From that lack of knowledge though they are certain it can't be nature on its own.Lincoln Phipps
January 9, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps:
GA are not design all the way down and I’ll explain as many people miss this essential point; GA is used when you don’t know how to design a solution. GA is “Ignorant Design” at best.
Wrong! GAS are used as a DESIGN TOOL. DESIGNERS programmed the computer, gave it the initial conditions, the GOAL/ TARGET, the resourse and algorithm to make it happen. There is no way the program could construct the proper antenna if the program didn't have the target. GAs are a goal-oriented targeted search. Darwinian evolution is NOT a search at all. You can blab all you want, you will NEVER be able to make a case that GAs are darwinian evolution.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps:
Deny the evidence all you want but the fact remains that no mind designed the antenna.
Of course a mind created the antenna. A mind conceived of the problem and wrote a GA to solve it. Only a desperate imbecile would equate GAs with darwinian evolution.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps:
GA are not trial and error. The Wikipedia entry is correct. It is Darwinian.
Wrong again. GAs have a goal, darwinian processes do not. GAs have NOTHING to do with darwinian evolution.Joe
January 9, 2014
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As well Mr. Phipps,
LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/
,,,Encoded ‘classical’ information such as what Dembski and Marks demonstrated the conservation of, and such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘transcendent’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:,,,
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
,,,And here is supporting evidence that quantum information is also ‘conserved’;,,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
Moreover, this conserved 'non-local', beyond space and time, quantum entanglement/information, of which classical information is 'merely' a subset, is now found to be in life as well:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
i.e. It is very interesting to note, to put it mildly, that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints (Bell, Aspect, Zeilinger), should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy space/time) ’cause’ when the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ falsified material particles as its own ‘causation’ in the first place? (A. Aspect) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as neo-Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the energy/matter particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘specified’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! ,,,To refute this falsification of neo-Darwinism, one must overturn Alain Aspect, and company’s, falsification of local realism (reductive materialism)! I wish them good luck with all because they will need it since the non-locality of entanglement is now verified to 70 standard deviations:
Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons - Jun 11, 2013 Excerpt: The new research, conducted at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Communication in Austria, closes the fair-sampling loophole,,, requiring no assumptions or correction of count rates – that confirmed quantum entanglement to nearly 70 standard deviations.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html
footnote:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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LP: Pardon, but drumming out a fallacious talking point over and over does not make it any more accurate or warranted the umpteenth time than the first. GA's are goal-directed, foresight driven and rest on intelligently designed algorithms. At best, they mimic some aspects of incremental hill climbing optimisation, maybe with a module to jump away from a too local peak. Chaitin:
. . . we present an information-theoretic analysis of Darwin’s theory of evolution, modeled as a hill-climbing algorithm on a fitness landscape. Our space of possible organisms consists of computer programs, which are subjected to random mutations. We study the random walk of increasing fitness made by a single mutating organism. [p.1]
You have been led to believe that the world of life as a whole fits this framework leading to a branching tree development pattern [you probably do not know of the chaos of the TOL model as diverse molecular trees stand in mutual contradiction and with the traditional one from gross anatomy etc], and have been led away from the overwhelming evidence that wiring diagram assembly, matching, coupling etc are all crucial to function in a context of specific organisation to achieve such. This leads to what has been called islands of function in seas of non function. The problem being to drift blindly to islands. You have also not been properly briefed on how hard it is to fix variations in populations and how long it would take, even on the incrementalist model, once we are talking reasonable parameters. For relevant body plan transitions, easily hundreds of millions of years or more, several orders of magnitude beyond the arguably available. As for the actual state of the fossil record on sudden appearance in layers, stasis across layers and gaps in a context where there should be a domination by transitionals, that speaks for itself. Note, after 150 years of diligent global effort, over 1/4 million fossil species, millions of examined collected specimens and billions more of the like seen in the ground. (E.g. Barbados, where I have lived for years is in large part cubic miles of fossil corals, etc. Just walk along the rods and look at construction sites and you can account for billions just there! The first fossils I saw and personally handled -- mollusc shells that I showed my bio teacher -- were on my grandparents' farm in Jamaica.) And, as someone with a working knowledge of information, the notion that large quantities of functionally specific especially coherent algorithmic info would accumulate by incremental filtering of noise, functional all the way, cannot pass the giggle test. Body plan level info, credibly requires 10 - 100+ mn functionally specific bits dozens of times over. In the background of this is the homology fallacy, exposed aptly by Berra's blunder. Yes, Corvettes from the 1950's to 70's and beyond can be arranged in a line of descent with modification and homology. Yup, nested hierarchy even, and this can be extended to the world of vehicles. But all of that ignores the common design, library of technologies and parts, multiple inheritance and so forth as technological design strategies. Homology -- question-begging redefinitions notwithstanding -- does not prove common descent on incremental blind chance variation and filtering off by differential reproductive success. Not, without begging big questions at the outset. Questions highlighted by Philip Johnson in reply to Lewontin's infamous a priori materialism imposed on origins science and even more fallacious notion that science is the only begetter of truth:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." [Emphasis added] . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
And, in that context I have found it highly significant that in dismissing Paley's watch in field argument on oh reproduction changes everything, the following is as a rule never addressed, from Paley in Ch 2:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch should after some time discover that, in addition to all the properties which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself -- the thing is conceivable; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art . . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use.
It is time for a re-think. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2014
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Moreover, functional information in life is found to be 'context dependent' thus exponentially exasperating the problem for neo-Darwinists
(A Reply To PZ Myers) Estimating the Probability of Functional Biological Proteins? Kirk Durston , Ph.D. Biophysics – 2012 Excerpt (Page 4): The Probabilities Get Worse This measure of functional information (for the RecA protein) is good as a first pass estimate, but the situation is actually far worse for an evolutionary search. In the method described above and as noted in our paper, each site in an amino acid protein sequence is assumed to be independent of all other sites in the sequence. In reality, we know that this is not the case. There are numerous sites in the sequence that are mutually interdependent with other sites somewhere else in the sequence. A more recent paper shows how these interdependencies can be located within multiple sequence alignments.[6] These interdependencies greatly reduce the number of possible functional protein sequences by many orders of magnitude which, in turn, reduce the probabilities by many orders of magnitude as well. In other words, the numbers we obtained for RecA above are exceedingly generous; the actual situation is far worse for an evolutionary search. http://powertochange.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Devious-Distortions-Durston-or-Myers_.pdf
In the following video, Winston Ewert speaks on how functional information is measured in proteins:
Proposed Information Metric: Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity (Ewert) – July 2012 – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm3mm3ofAYU
Of related interest, in the preceding video the short sentence, "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" is calculated to contain 1000 bits of algorithmic specified complexity, and to thus exceed the Universal Probability Bound (UPB) of 500 bits set by Dr. Dembski and To clarify as to how the 500 bit universal limit is found for 'structured, functional information':
Dembski's original value for the universal probability bound is 1 in 10^150, 10^80, the number of elementary particles in the observable universe. 10^45, the maximum rate per second at which transitions in physical states can occur. 10^25, a billion times longer than the typical estimated age of the universe in seconds. Thus, 10^150 = 10^80 × 10^45 × 10^25. Hence, this value corresponds to an upper limit on the number of physical events that could possibly have occurred since the big bang. How many bits would that be: Pu = 10-150, so, -log2 Pu = 498.29 bits Call it 500 bits (The 500 bits is further specified as a specific type of information. It is specified as Complex Specified Information by Dembski or as Functional Information by Abel to separate it from merely Ordered Sequence Complexity or Random Sequence Complexity; See Three subsets of sequence complexity) Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - Abel, Trevors http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29
What does all this mean for the layman? Well the following article gets the point across very clearly in plain English:
Book Review - Meyer, Stephen C. Signature in the Cell. New York: HarperCollins, 2009. Excerpt: As early as the 1960s, those who approached the problem of the origin of life from the standpoint of information theory and combinatorics observed that something was terribly amiss. Even if you grant the most generous assumptions: that every elementary particle in the observable universe is a chemical laboratory randomly splicing amino acids into proteins every Planck time for the entire history of the universe, there is a vanishingly small probability that even a single functionally folded protein of 150 amino acids would have been created. Now of course, elementary particles aren't chemical laboratories, nor does peptide synthesis take place where most of the baryonic mass of the universe resides: in stars or interstellar and intergalactic clouds. If you look at the chemistry, it gets even worse—almost indescribably so: the precursor molecules of many of these macromolecular structures cannot form under the same prebiotic conditions—they must be catalysed by enzymes created only by preexisting living cells, and the reactions required to assemble them into the molecules of biology will only go when mediated by other enzymes, assembled in the cell by precisely specified information in the genome. So, it comes down to this: Where did that information come from? The simplest known free living organism (although you may quibble about this, given that it's a parasite) has a genome of 582,970 base pairs, or about one megabit (assuming two bits of information for each nucleotide, of which there are four possibilities). Now, if you go back to the universe of elementary particle Planck time chemical labs and work the numbers, you find that in the finite time our universe has existed, you could have produced about 500 bits of structured, functional information by random search. Yet here we have a minimal information string which is (if you understand combinatorics) so indescribably improbable to have originated by chance that adjectives fail. http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/reading_list/indices/book_726.html
Moreover, (as if all that was not bad enough for the determined Darwinist), functional information can be further refined into prescriptive information, which makes the problem far, far, worse for atheists/materialists
Dichotomy in the definition of prescriptive information suggests both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms: biosemiotics applications in genomic systems - 2012 David J D’Onofrio1*, David L Abel2* and Donald E Johnson3 Excerpt: The DNA polynucleotide molecule consists of a linear sequence of nucleotides, each representing a biological placeholder of adenine (A), cytosine (C), thymine (T) and guanine (G). This quaternary system is analogous to the base two binary scheme native to computational systems. As such, the polynucleotide sequence represents the lowest level of coded information expressed as a form of machine code. Since machine code (and/or micro code) is the lowest form of compiled computer programs, it represents the most primitive level of programming language.,,, An operational analysis of the ribosome has revealed that this molecular machine with all of its parts follows an order of operations to produce a protein product. This order of operations has been detailed in a step-by-step process that has been observed to be self-executable. The ribosome operation has been proposed to be algorithmic (Ralgorithm) because it has been shown to contain a step-by-step process flow allowing for decision control, iterative branching and halting capability. The R-algorithm contains logical structures of linear sequencing, branch and conditional control. All of these features at a minimum meet the definition of an algorithm and when combined with the data from the mRNA, satisfy the rule that Algorithm = data + control. Remembering that mere constraints cannot serve as bona fide formal controls, we therefore conclude that the ribosome is a physical instantiation of an algorithm.,,, The correlation between linguistic properties examined and implemented using Automata theory give us a formalistic tool to study the language and grammar of biological systems in a similar manner to how we study computational cybernetic systems. These examples define a dichotomy in the definition of Prescriptive Information. We therefore suggest that the term Prescriptive Information (PI) be subdivided into two categories: 1) Prescriptive data and 2) Prescribed (executing) algorithm. It is interesting to note that the CPU of an electronic computer is an instance of a prescriptive algorithm instantiated into an electronic circuit, whereas the software under execution is read and processed by the CPU to prescribe the program’s desired output. Both hardware and software are prescriptive. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-9-8.pdf
bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps you claim (per Shannon)
you’ve got a number of problems. Firstly information is measured in bits. The greater the unexpectedness then the higher the information content. So no, a mind is not needed to generate bits of information as a random stream of bits is information rich.
Yet contrary to your simplistic notion that a random stream of bits is 'information rich' (i.e. Shannon Information), it is now known that,,,
Mutations, epigenetics and the question of information Excerpt: By definition, a mutation in a gene results in a new allele. There is no question that mutation (defined as any change in the DNA sequence) can increase variety in a population. However, it is not obvious that this necessarily means there is an increase in genomic information.,, If one attempts to apply Shannon’s theory of information, then this can be viewed as an increase. However, Shannon’s theory was not developed to address biological information. It is entirely unsuitable for this since an increase of information by Shannon’s definition can easily be lethal (and an increase in randomness increases Shannon ‘information’). http://creation.com/mutations-epigenetics-information The Evolution-Lobby’s Useless Definition of Biological Information – Feb. 2010 Excerpt: By wrongly implying that Shannon information is the only “sense used by information theorists,” the NCSE avoids answering more difficult questions like how the information in biological systems becomes functional, or in its own words, “useful.”,,,Since biology is based upon functional information, Darwin-skeptics are interested in the far more important question of, Does neo-Darwinism explain how new functional biological information arises? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/the_evolutionlobbys_useless_de.html
As well it is found that Claude Shannon's work on 'communication of coded information', i.e. 'channel capacity', actually fully supports Intelligent Design as is illustrated in the following video:
Shannon Information - Channel Capacity - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5457552/
i.e.
"A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor). It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required. ,,,there is no known law of nature and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter. Werner Gitt 1997 In The Beginning Was Information pp. 64-67, 79, 107." (The retired Dr Gitt was a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology (Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Braunschweig), the Head of the Department of Information Technology.)
But back to differentiating a random string of bits (Shannon information) from functional information (i.e. from information that actual does something useful in the cell):
Functional information and the emergence of bio-complexity: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak: Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define 'functional information,' I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity. For a given system and function, x (e.g., a folded RNA sequence that binds to GTP), and degree of function, Ex (e.g., the RNA-GTP binding energy), I(Ex)= -log2 [F(Ex)], where F(Ex) is the fraction of all possible configurations of the system that possess a degree of function > Ex. Functional information, which we illustrate with letter sequences, artificial life, and biopolymers, thus represents the probability that an arbitrary configuration of a system will achieve a specific function to a specified degree. In each case we observe evidence for several distinct solutions with different maximum degrees of function, features that lead to steps in plots of information versus degree of functions. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl.1/8574.full Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236 Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins – Kirk K Durston, David KY Chiu, David L Abel and Jack T Trevors – 2007 Excerpt: We have extended Shannon uncertainty by incorporating the data variable with a functionality variable. The resulting measured unit, which we call Functional bit (Fit), is calculated from the sequence data jointly with the defined functionality variable. To demonstrate the relevance to functional bioinformatics, a method to measure functional sequence complexity was developed and applied to 35 protein families.,,, http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47 Intelligent Design: Required by Biological Life? K.D. Kalinsky - Pg. 11 Excerpt: It is estimated that the simplest life form would require at least 382 protein-coding genes. Using our estimate in Case Four of 700 bits of functional information required for the average protein, we obtain an estimate of about 267,000 bits for the simplest life form. Again, this is well above Inat and it is about 10^80,000 times more likely that ID (Intelligent Design) could produce the minimal genome than mindless natural processes. http://www.newscholars.com/papers/ID%20Web%20Article.pdf
Of semi related note:
“a one-celled bacterium, e. coli, is estimated to contain the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Expressed in information in science jargon, this would be the same as 10^12 bits of information. In comparison, the total writings from classical Greek Civilization is only 10^9 bits, and the largest libraries in the world – The British Museum, Oxford Bodleian Library, New York Public Library, Harvard Widenier Library, and the Moscow Lenin Library – have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.” – R. C. Wysong
Here is a paper of particular importance as to clearing up you misconception Mr. Phipps:
Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information – Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC).,,, Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).,,, Testable hypotheses about FSC What testable empirical hypotheses can we make about FSC that might allow us to identify when FSC exists? In any of the following null hypotheses [137], demonstrating a single exception would allow falsification. We invite assistance in the falsification of any of the following null hypotheses: Null hypothesis #1 Stochastic ensembles of physical units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #2 Dynamically-ordered sequences of individual physical units (physicality patterned by natural law causation) cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #3 Statistically weighted means (e.g., increased availability of certain units in the polymerization environment) giving rise to patterned (compressible) sequences of units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #4 Computationally successful configurable switches cannot be set by chance, necessity, or any combination of the two, even over large periods of time. We repeat that a single incident of nontrivial algorithmic programming success achieved without selection for fitness at the decision-node programming level would falsify any of these null hypotheses. This renders each of these hypotheses scientifically testable. We offer the prediction that none of these four hypotheses will be falsified. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29
bornagain77
January 9, 2014
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LP @ 85 You have a point on the analogy. I'll concede mostly. However, the password being cracked could then be anything that is warmer (i.e. warmest unlocks). Granted, not a lot of force required for such a check, but the computer algorithm is looking for a defined target/direction.JGuy
January 9, 2014
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Eric Anderson, GA are not trial and error. The Wikipedia entry is correct. It is Darwinian. The "genome" was not carefully selected. The system does not also know the goal. It knows what is fit but not the solution. Yes, a expert could also "have been done by an engineer in a lab" but that's the whole point - the result looks like it has been created by an expert but no expert was involved. There is a heck of a difference in skills in the heavy maths of RF design and bending wires at random until it works. You do the math.Lincoln Phipps
January 9, 2014
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JGuy, no GA’s are NOT "the equivalent of a hacker doing a brute force attack looking for a password," That's just silly; a logon system doesn't indicate if you are getting warmer ! Have another go OK ?Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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bornagain77, you've got a number of problems. Firstly information is measured in bits. The greater the unexpectedness then the higher the information content. So no, a mind is not needed to generate bits of information as a random stream of bits is information rich. Computers are poor at generating random numbers unless they have a hardware feature to do this. The matter of nature is a very good source of randomness. Deny the evidence all you want but the fact remains that no mind designed the antenna. The design for the antenna was the combination of random mutations and a fitness function. The fitness function is a measure of power output/sensitivity. When the algorithm was running then no human chose the genome of that antenna. There are no red flags with using technology to prove science problems. Many fields use technology to isolate systems for study. Humans combine elements in labs every day. Just because we can do this doesn't mean that they can only happen in a lab. We all know that the end-of-days for a lot of anti-Evolution will be abiogenesis but we also know that there will be just as many people claiming that as the process happened in a lab then it is still "design". I get that you think a mind is involved with these processes but for you that also means that everything from plagues to parasites are the results of that mind. Pass on the message; Gee thanks.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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GA's are the equivalent of a hacker doing a brute force attack looking for a password, in that they(GA's) are directed and looking for a particular target. Indeed, an utterly impotent analogy for Darwinian processes.JGuy
January 8, 2014
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LP @76: As per the antenna -- we've talked about that several times before. My prior comment on another thread was (and remains):
Alan Fox @16: Yes, we’ve looked at this antenna before. No-one doubts that trial-and-error approaches can be useful for looking at simple problems, particularly where the constraints and parameters — as in this case — were carefully input into the original conditions and the outputs were carefully selected in a steady march toward a very specific goal. The whole process could have been done by an engineer in a lab; computers are just helpful to speed up the process in this kind of simple case. Incidentally, the Wikipedia claim that the process mimics Darwinian evolution (which by definition has no constraints, parameters, goals or desired outcomes), is silly propaganda.
GA's are simply not impressive as examples of "evolution" in action. When they employ purely Darwinian principles nothing interesting happens. When they arrive at something interesting it is invariably because they employed principles beyond those available to Darwinian evolution.Eric Anderson
January 8, 2014
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Box @74: Thanks, that is a great question. My response is really twofold. 1. As I have noted for a long time, from a rhetorical debating stance many evolution critics (whether arguing for ID or not) take a pragmatic approach and assume for purposes of argument (as does Meyer) that natural selection is real and is meaningful. This is a reasonable approach in many debating circumstances, because even if we grant that natural selection does something, and even if we grant that natural selection inevitably leads to an increase in survivability (in that sense, it becomes a useless tautology, but let's be generous for the time being) -- even if we grant all those things, the real problems still exist: namely, how did the remarkable variation, built as it is on functional specified information, come about in the first place. Note that Meyer isn't really arguing for any great power of natural selection. Rather, he brings it up as a foil to introduce the real issue: the massive increase in information content. Meyer is saying, in effect, "Look, even if we take Darwin as gospel, and even if he was spot on, it still doesn't answer the $64,000 question: where did all the information and all the wonderful variation come from?" As one writer quipped: "Darwin explained the survival of the fittest, but not the arrival of the fittest." So I suppose that if I were in Meyer's shoes writing a major book about information in the cell or writing another major book about information content in the Cambrian Explosion or giving a lecture at a university, I would probably not spend a lot of time quibbling over the exact definition of natural selection. I would probably not be as coddling to Darwin's ideas as he and other ID proponents typically are, but I might well decide that the better part of valor is to concede, for purposes of discussion, that natural selection does all the wonderful "selecting" and "preserving" it is alleged to do, and then spend the bulk of the time talking about the fact that natural selection still doesn't answer any of the real interesting questions. 2. My point about natural selection not being a force or not actually doing anything is more of a technical nuance than we typically get into, but let me try for a moment. Specifically, we need to understand that natural selection is not a force and is not a cause -- not in any sense in which we understand the forces and causes in nature. If we want to really get down to it, we have a pretty good handle on what the major natural forces are (gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces). And subsidiary forces/causes can be explained in terms of their relationship with those forces of nature. So, for example, when we look at biochemistry, we understand that biochemical reactions take place due to the interactions of those forces and we can explain, with a fair amount of precision, what those forces are and how they behave. Natural selection isn't anything like that. It is not a force. It is not a cause. We cannot explain in any meaningful sense its relationship to the 4 fundamental forces. We cannot say what it will "do" or what it will "cause" in a given instance. There simply is not a force of nature called "natural selection." Furthermore, in so many cases, our use of the term is just a shorthand surrogate for ignorance. We look at a population at point A in time. We look at the population later at point B in time. The population has changed in some respect. What caused that? Well, natural selection, of course, we proclaim! Natural selection in action! But what does that really mean? What caused the change in the population? Let's take a really simple example: a mixed population of bacteria exposed to an environment without oxygen. Prior to being deprived of oxygen we have a mix of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, but after being deprived of oxygen we come back some time later and, ta-da, only the anaerobic bacteria have survived. Natural selection in action! And yet, in this obvious case we know exactly what caused the aerobic bacteria to die. It was the lack of oxygen. And we know why the anaerobic bacteria survived. Indeed, that is why they are called "anaerobic bacteria." So all we have really "learned" from the observation is what we already knew in the first place: anaerobic bacteria can survive without oxygen and the other kind can't. And we can -- and this is the crux of the issue -- based on the evidence, based on our understanding of the bacteria in question, based on our understanding of the environment -- we can say exactly why bacteria A died and bacteria B survived. And we can make that determination, and draw that conclusion, and explain in great detail what occurred in the population without ever once invoking the term "natural selection." Now, yes, we could step back and attach a rhetorical label to the process of aerobic bacteria perishing in the absence of oxygen, and we could use the words "natural selection" as a shorthand expression so as to avoid having to get into the details. But in doing so, we will have explained precisely nothing additional, we will have added precisely zero additional insight into the actual causes and forces at work by attaching such a label. Indeed, unfortunately in virtually all cases, the addition of the term "natural selection" simply obscures the matter. Worse, when we then get into the habit of using natural selection as the 'explanation' for this or that phenomenon, we deceive ourselves into thinking that we have some meaningful understanding of the real forces and processes at work, when in fact all we have done is apply a blanket rhetorical label to the results of processes poorly understood. So the ironic upshot of all this is that (a) when we know what really went on we can explain the situation quite nicely without ever invoking the term "natural selection," and (b) in those many more numerous cases in which we don't actually know what happened -- on the ground, in the environment, at the molecular and informational level -- proclaiming that "natural selection" did such or thus is really just a confession of ignorance coupled with a faith pronouncement about this amazing "force." ----- Well, that is way too long already. In summary, I believe it is possible to use the term "natural selection" as a convenience label on occasions when we don't want to get into all the details. That is fine as far as it goes and as long as we are extremely careful not to deceive ourselves or others. Regrettably, however, experience has shown that all too often the term is used as though it were some kind of real explanation for what occurred or as though it were some kind of actual force of nature, moving things in a particular direction. It is neither. It is a convenience label only, and -- unfortunately -- one that more often obscures than enlightens.Eric Anderson
January 8, 2014
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OT..sorta..: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY9Z5LRkjkkJGuy
January 8, 2014
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AVS, I think you have implicitly conceded that non-random, in the sense of natural selection, is not mindful and not seeing. That is, in the way that Joe obviously (I think) used the terms as they regard to foresight. In that same context, as I explained here that Joe seems to have used it, do you [still?] think non-random is similar to guides? ... Or will you concede that the way you use 'guides' does not employ foresight of any kind?JGuy
January 8, 2014
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