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Commenter Apparently Believes that Only Part of Darwinian Evolution is “blind/mindless/unguided.” Maybe, if We Ask Nice, He Will Enlighten Us Poor Benighted ID Slobs About Which Part is “Seeing, Mindful and Guided.”

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In the comment section to a prior post commenters “Joe” and “AVS” are having a tussle over whether Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided.  It is fascinating and instructive.  Let’s see.

First, Joe asked: “How does one test anything wrt unguided evolution?”

To which AVS responded:  “The fact that you call it “unguided evolution” tells me everything I need to know about you. One of those things is that trying to talk to you about science would be like trying to talk to a wall.”

This is an interesting response, because some of the leading Darwinists in the world have noted that evolution is a blind unguided process.  One would have thought that the proposition that Darwinian evolution is unguided was uncontroversial, and Joe responded as by posting the following quotes:

Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic. UCBerkley

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?

AVS responds with the inevitable “quote mining” accusation when Darwinists are quoted to support a proposition:  “SO you mash two quotes up from two unrelated people and repeat them completely out of context?”

Joe asks:  “How are the quotes out of context?”

AVS responds to my question about why he believes Joe took the quotes out of context:

I’m saying that evolution has both random, or blind/mindless/unguided processes as Joe here likes to call them, as well as having non-random processes. You need both parts,and it’s the second part that you and your friends here like to ignore apparently.  Maybe you can explain to Joe why he’s so clueless.

In summary:

1.  Joe says that Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, and he quotes, among others, Dawkins, to back that up.

2.  AVS says Joe does not know what he is talking about and that he mined the Dawkins quote.

3.  When asked to demonstrate how the Dawkins quote has been taken out of context, AVS says that evolution is part random and part non-random.

Let’s evaluate AVS’s argument, such as it is:

He asserts that Darwinian evolution has a “random” component and a “non-random” component, and that is true enough.  The random component is the random changes that occur in the genome through, for example, random genetic mutations.  The non-random part is, of course, natural selection, which takes the random changes in the genome and “selects” for those that increase fitness.

Here’s where AVS falls overboard.  He characterizes only the “random” component of Darwinian evolution as “blind, mindless and unguided.”  Apparently, he believes that the non-random component (i.e., natural selection) is not “blind, mindless and unguided.”

But that is just Joe’s point.  BOTH parts of the Darwinian evolution equation are blind, mindless and unguided.  That is Dawkins’ point as well when he says that even natural selection (the non-random part AVS) is blind.  By blind, mindless and unguided, Joe (and Dawkins) mean that Darwinian evolution does not have foresight.  It cannot plan for distant goals.  It has no purpose.  They do not mean that it is entirely random.

To the extent that AVS denies that any part of Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, he must mean that some part of it is seeing, mindful and guided.  But that is obviously false.  AVS has mistakenly equated “non-random” with “not blind, mindless and unguided.”

In summary, therefore, AVS owes Joe an apology on two counts:  (1) for falsely accusing him of taking the quotes out of context; and (2) for ridiculing him when he himself is the one who is obviously wrong.

The irony, of course, is that even in his obvious error AVS plays the typical blustering Darwinist – serenely confident in his own intelligence and rectitude even when he is glaringly wrong.  I will leave you with this:  AVS compares his knowledge to Joe’s and says  he, AVS, is the “person who has forgotten more biology” than Joe will ever know.  Pathetic?  Laughable?  Both?  I will let the readers decide.

Comments
Lincoln Phipps, you seem to be under the impression that we have not seen that argument dozens of times before. It doesn't work for what you want it to prove (unguided Darwinism) for the simple reason that a human mind designed the program with the specific goal of designing an antenna in the end. It all boils down to this,,, "Captcha" Breakthrough by AI (Artificial Intelligence) Illustrates Biomimetic Design - November 26, 2013 Excerpt: Since intelligent design presupposes a mental act directed toward a purpose, AI is a misnomer. It should more properly be described as "artificial execution of human-designed algorithms." This is really a story about biomimetics -- a form of intelligent-design science. The engineers looked to the way a brain solves a problem and tried to imitate it. It took human intelligent design to design the computer. It took intelligent design to write the software. It took human ID to test it, tweak it and perfect it till it succeeded. It requires human intelligence to see a good design. It takes ID to formulate a purpose. Then it requires human intelligence and will to move things in a preferred direction for that purpose. Nothing is left to unguided processes. Even selection from random trials (falsely called "Darwinian" algorithms) employs human purposeful choice. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/11/captcha_breakou079551.html Moreover,, Applied Darwinism: A New Paper from Bob Marks (W. Dembski) and His Team, in BIO-Complexity - Doug Axe - 2012 Excerpt: Furthermore, if you dig a bit beyond these papers and look at what kinds of problems this technique (Steiner Tree) is being used for in the engineering world, you quickly find that it is of extremely limited applicability. It works for tasks that are easily accomplished in a huge number of specific ways, but where someone would have to do a lot of mindless fiddling to decide which of these ways is best.,, That's helpful in the sense that we commonly find computers helpful -- they do what we tell them to do very efficiently, without complaining. But in biology we see something altogether different. We see elegant solutions to millions of engineering problems that human ingenuity cannot even begin to solve. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/04/applied_darwini058591.html Moreover no more functional information is being generated in the successful search than what was pre-existent in the computer program! i.e. Conservation of Information! Mr. Phipp's it SHOULD send up a huge red flag to your Darwinian beliefs that you are having to use intelligently designed computer programs to try to prove that Darwinism is feasible. Why is this? Why can't you point to biological evidence to prove your point? Well, there is a very good reason. It is impossible for purely material processes to generate functional information. i.e. a mind is ALWAYS required! The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag “One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they posses’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity. Now, if information is not a material entity, then how can any materialistic explanation account for its origin? How can any material cause explain it’s origin? And this is the real and fundamental problem that the presence of information in biology has posed. It creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic, evolutionary scenarios because information is a different kind of entity that matter and energy cannot produce. In the nineteenth century we thought that there were two fundamental entities in science; matter, and energy. At the beginning of the twenty first century, we now recognize that there’s a third fundamental entity; and its ‘information’. It’s not reducible to matter. It’s not reducible to energy. But it’s still a very important thing that is real; we buy it, we sell it, we send it down wires. Now, what do we make of the fact, that information is present at the very root of all biological function? In biology, we have matter, we have energy, but we also have this third, very important entity; information. I think the biology of the information age, poses a fundamental challenge to any materialistic approach to the origin of life.” -Dr. Stephen C. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University for a dissertation on the history of origin-of-life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences. Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test - Douglas G. Robertson - 1999 Excerpt: Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomenon: the creation of new information. “… no operation performed by a computer can create new information.” http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdfbornagain77
January 8, 2014
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Did he just bring the antenna up?bornagain77
January 8, 2014
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Joe, GA are not design all the way down and I'll explain as many people miss this essential point; GA is used when you don't know how to design a solution. GA is "Ignorant Design" at best. The evolved antenna is the perfect example of this. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna ) RF design is very mathematics heavy and beyond most people. By the use of GA though it is possible to "design" an antenna without the need for expert RF design. An expert RF designer could reverse engineer the resultant design and ask "Who designed this ?" but there is no one like them that designed the evolved antenna. There is also no RF design coded into the GA that an expert would use. It is a cycle of mutate, test for fitness, and then copy the fittest and delete the unfit results. In that case the genome is wirelengths and locations for bends. In effect the blind watchmaker with side-cutters and pliers. Apply that same routine to a genome and you can ask the same questions "Who designed this ?" but there is no one like them that designed the evolved genome. Sure just like the expert RF designer they could reverse engineer the solution and claim just how hard it is but its not hard for the GA, it is just repetitive.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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Chance, 72 What is the ontological link between molecular machines and fitness landscapes? Simple. Since natural selection can fixate the color of a moth's wing, that clearly demonstrates selection also made the moth.lifepsy
January 8, 2014
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Eric Anderson #73, You stress that natural selection doesn't do anything. What is your comment on Stephen Meyer's sheep example? From 'Darwin's Doubt':
In the Origin, Darwin argued that this process, natural selection acting on random variations, could alter the features of organisms just as intelligent selection by human breeders can. Nature itself could play the role of the breeder. Consider once more our flock of sheep. Imagine that instead of a human selecting the woolliest males and ewes to breed, a series of very cold winters ensures that all but the very woolliest sheep in a population die. Now again only very woolly sheep will remain to breed. If the cold winters continue over several generations, will the result not be the same as before? Won’t the population of sheep eventually become discernibly woollier? This was Darwin’s great insight. Nature—in the form of environmental changes or other factors—could have the same effect on a population of organisms as the intentional decisions of an intelligent agent. Nature would favor the preservation of certain features over others—specifically, those that conferred a functional or survival advantage upon the organisms possessing them—causing the features of the population to change. And the resulting change will have been produced not by an intelligent breeder choosing a desirable trait or variation—not by “artificial selection”—but by a wholly natural process. What’s more, Darwin concluded that this process of natural selection acting on randomly arising variations had been “the chief agent of change” in generating the great branching tree of life in all its variety.
Box
January 8, 2014
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He asserts that Darwinian evolution has a “random” component and a “non-random” component, and that is true enough. The random component is the random changes that occur in the genome through, for example, random genetic mutations. The non-random part is, of course, natural selection, which takes the random changes in the genome and “selects” for those that increase fitness.
The whole issue would be a lot clearer to everyone if people would stop talking as though natural selection does something. It doesn't. It isn't a force. It has no power. It doesn't do anything. All natural selection is is a rhetorical label attached to the stochastic results of underlying processes that -- in common vernacular -- are entirely "random," and (unfortunately) rarely ever specified. Furthermore, we can look at the alleged evolutionary results and quickly ascertain that natural selection, even if it were some kind of actual force, has no particular direction. Larger organisms? Sure. Smaller organisms? Why not. Faster? You bet. Slower? Well, OK. Eyes? Definitely. Except when creatures don't get them. More offspring? Absolutely! Except for those creatures with frighteningly few offspring and long gestation periods. Land dwelling or water dwelling, plain-colored or wildly-colored, this or that, up or down, roll the dice on and on . . . Evolution -- even granting the intellectually-illegitimate personification of natural selection as some kind of "non-random" selection "power" -- provides absolutely zero direction or indication of what will occur in the future or what could have occurred in the past. The whole thing is an absolute crapshoot. Finally, if anyone thinks natural selection provides some kind of meaningful "non-random" direction to the state of affairs, then please tell us exactly what that non-random direction is? What does it lead to? How strong is its force and how is it applied? How can it be calculated? We quickly realize there is nothing there to identify and nothing there to calculate. When we strip away all the fancy rhetoric and look at the actual underlying explanation of evolutionary theory, it all boils down to one thing -- the Great Evolutionary Explanation: Stuff Happens.Eric Anderson
January 8, 2014
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The notion that selection can construct organic machines isn't science, it's bad metaphysics. What is the ontological link between molecular machines and fitness landscapes? What necessary correlation is there between motors, signaling systems, error correction, information translation and hot/cold, wet/dry, feast/famine? There is neither a metaphysical nor empirical relationship that can be demonstrated via logic or experiment between the environment -- niches and all -- and the construction of nano-scale molecular machines.Chance Ratcliff
January 8, 2014
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Phipps, 57
no, selection by predation is not a random process but a selective process. The lion doesn’t close its eyes, open its mouth and run in a random direction and hopes to snag an antelope. The lion seeks the slow, the injured, the young, the old and the weak.
I didn't mean the act of predation itself is random. (it's hard to call hunger random) I meant that fixation of beneficial mutation that does not mitigate predation, typically would be random.
Even the large scale consumption by a whale leave gaps that can be exploited, such as different depths and different times of the year.
Exactly, they would have to be mutations that mitigate predation. Otherwise they are effectively neutral. There is no hierarchy of phenotype selection when it comes to hanging out in a group that will either disappear into a whale's stomach or not. Survival of the luckiest, not fittest. Equivalent scenarios of fitness noise are found throughout the plant and animal kingdom. The whole idea of environmental niches sailing in and evolving populations is just Darwinist poetry and "selection-dunnit" hand-waving. Always has been.lifepsy
January 8, 2014
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Fitness, wrt biology, means reproductive success- it's an after-the-fact assessment. And with natural selection the less fit get eliminated. Whatever is good enough gets to try to reproduce.Joe
January 8, 2014
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We GAs we have the initial conditions, the required resources, the specified result (ie what you are trying to accomplish) and then the algorithms to make it all happen. It's design all the way down...Joe
January 8, 2014
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LP:
no you don’t understand genetic algorithms. Start…. 1 – Mutate at random. 2 – Eliminate what is unfit 3 – Copy survivors. 4 – Repeat (1…) Without the step 2 then it is just endless mutate and there is never any selection of fit mutations.
That is false. GAs are designed with a goal in mind, ie a solution to some problem. Dawkins' "weasel" is a simplified version- the original sequence(s) are mutated and selected for- actual selection- depending on how well they match the target.Joe
January 8, 2014
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LP #64
What we see as observers is that what exists is what persists and what persists is what is fit so when we observers look at what exists then we call that process, natural selection.
Yeah, it all means the same thing doesn't it: "exist", "persist", "fit"? Tautological meaninglessness. As David Berlinski says:
What survives, survives.
Whatever escapes the onslaught of NS, escapes the onslaught of NS. It follows that NS is a destructive force which makes chance's impossible job even harder.Box
January 8, 2014
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correction (knowing that it would NOT give you the answer you wanted)bornagain77
January 8, 2014
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Mr. Phipp's I asked you, since you were talking about genetic algorithms,:
Mr. Phipp’s and exactly who gets to determine what is fit in the algorithm?
and then you, instead of being honest to the question I asked, (knowing that it would give you the answer you wanted) shorten my question to,,
you asked who gets to determine what is fit ?
and then you go on about the temperature. And ask,,
Now who determined that temperature ?
That is just being dishonest Mr. Phipp's for you to not directly answer the question I asked you and to shorten it and try to go off topic!,,, But anyways, since you want to play on the 'methodological naturalism' turf (an absurd position is there ever was one of assuming your conclusion beforehand), then if you believe Global Warming alarmists, apparently it is us to some exaggerated extent who control the temperature :). But if you believe in Theism and that God sustains the universe through the non-locality of quantum mechanics, as I do (and have evidence for), Then God controls the temperature as well. But even if we assume that God merely sustains the universe and that then let's nature 'run its course' so to say, then even the entropic randomness at the base of temperature fluctuations is bounded by a constant that limits the effect of 'randomness' on temperature (Boltzmannn, Planck)! so thus once again, even if we assume a 'secondary cause' mode, God still initially selected the random 'fitness function' for temperature. As Well, I'm sure I could find some rapid epigenetic variations due to temperature fluctuations that are not amendable to Darwinian processes. Who selected for that 'temperature function' in such epigenetic changes Mr. Phipps? For instance The mechanism for polar bear ‘sub-speciation’ was rapid:
Post details: Polar bears and mammalian speciation – May 2010 Excerpt: “Recent genetic studies have shown that polar bears evolved from within brown bears, and that a genetically unique clade of brown bear populations that live exclusively on the Admiralty, Baranof, and Chichagof (ABC) islands of southeastern Alaska’s Alexander Archipelago are more closely related to polar bears than to other brown bears.” “The stable isotope data, phylogenetic analysis, and the geological and molecular age estimates of the Poolepynten specimen indicate that ancient polar bears adapted extremely rapidly both morphologically and physiologically to their current and unique ecology within only 10-30 ky following their split from a brown bear precursor,,, http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2010/05/20/polar_bears_and_mammalian_speciation Thus we are warranted to postulate some epigentic, ‘evironmental clue’, mechanism as for the rapid adaptation. Yet it must be kept in mind that even though the speciation from brown bears was rapid, that the speciation also came at a cost of the genetic information that was already present in the brown bear population: Genetics – Polar Bear Excerpt: microsatellite data that can be compared suggest there may be less genetic variation among populations of polar bears than among populations of black bears and brown bears (Paetkau et al. 1995, 1999). Paetkau et al. (1999) also found genetic distances among polar bear populations were at the lower extreme of the distances reported for the gray wolf (Canus lupus), another widely distributed carnivore. Evidence from patterns in mtDNA also may hint at somewhat less genetic variation among polar bear populations than among populations of other bears. Cronin et al. (1991) reported only one basic polar bear mtDNA lineage, whereas black and brown bears each have two very divergent lineages. The older species (black and brown bears) appear to have more genetic variation across their ranges than the more recently derived polar bears. Greater morphological variation among populations of brown bears (e.g., very large individuals, such as those living on Kodiak Island and coastal Alaska, vs. smaller interior or arctic bears) also appears to reflect more genetic variation than is present among polar bears (Stirling and Derocher 1990; Talbot and Shields 1996a, 1996b). Morphological variation among polar bears is minimal throughout their range. Paetkau et al. (1999) http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/polar-bears/polar-bear-comprehensive/genetics
additional Note: Global Warming Expedition to Prove Antarctic Ice is Melting Trapped by Ice - Dec. 30, 2013 http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/global-warming-expedition-to-prove-antarctic-ice-is-melting-trapped-by-ice/bornagain77
January 8, 2014
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Box, You asked "Do you happen to mean “(…) there is never any selection of viable mutations” – as in capable of living?" ... I used "fit" as it is the best term. As NS doesn't act per se it doesn't know the viability of the mutations before they happen. What we see as observers is that what exists is what persists and what persists is what is fit so when we observers look at what exists then we call that process, natural selection. It is like comparing a sieve with a picker: the sieve lets through objects of a certain size and works well if randomly agitated whereas something that picks out objects of a certain size has to have a heuristic and mechanism to select. The end result is the same. Someone else will never know if something has been sieved or picked.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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I should have said: The term adds nothing to the debate. And neither does the concept of natural selection of which we are quite familiar and have been discussing all it nuances for years.jerry
January 8, 2014
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“fit” and “fitness” are correct terms and it adds a lot to the debate. It is not a misnomer.
This is trivial stuff. It adds nothing to the debate because it never leads to anything of consequence. If you think it does then I suggest you provide the evidence. We have never seen it and are probably familiar with nearly everything ever written on the subject. What may be fit today may not be fit tomorrow so the term is not very descriptive. As I said it is circular. What is fit? It is what survives. Why does something survive? Because it is fit. The term adds nothing to the debate.jerry
January 8, 2014
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Jerry, "fit" and "fitness" are correct terms and it adds a lot to the debate. It is not a misnomer. Copying Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitness_%28biology%29 "If differences between alleles of a given gene affect fitness, then the frequencies of the alleles will change over generations; the alleles with higher fitness become more common. This process is called natural selection."Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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Now where do you think bornagain77 sits ?
I do not know. You will have to ask him. I do not want to suggest what another person believes and adheres to. I know he is not an atheist but presents evidence that would be consistent with believing in an old earth and old universe. I know he doubts the power of natural forces producing anything of consequence in terms of new information which is essential for any significant change to an organism. I have rarely seen him make a claim that I disagree with though I do not read everything since some of the comments are quite extensive. None of your classifications describes me. I am neither a theistic ID nor a YEC and certainly not an atheist.jerry
January 8, 2014
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That outside temperature is just one example of what is determining what is fit.
This is a trivial non-controversial example. No one disagrees with that. But what may survive in sub-zero temperatures may not survive in hot dry temperatures. The term "fit" is often a misnomer and really adds very little to the evolution debate.jerry
January 8, 2014
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Jerry, well then why don't you point this out to bornagain77 ? You know that within the people that post here there will be atheistic-Darwin through to atheistic-ID through to Theistic-ID through to YEC. Now where do you think bornagain77 sits ?Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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lifepsy no, selection by predation is not a random process but a selective process. The lion doesn't close its eyes, open its mouth and run in a random direction and hopes to snag an antelope. The lion seeks the slow, the injured, the young, the old and the weak. Even the large scale consumption by a whale leave gaps that can be exploited, such as different depths and different times of the year. These are non-random pressures and so the distribution of changes in a genome would find the gaps and are then selected... by not being eaten.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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Now who determined that temperature ? The methodological naturalism view is that we assume that the natural environment is of a materialistic cause.
That is the ID position too!!!!jerry
January 8, 2014
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Lincoln,
LP #46: Without the step 2 then it is just endless mutate and there is never any selection of fit mutations.
Do you happen to mean "(...) there is never any selection of viable mutations" - as in capable of living? If so, I don't think the view of natural selection as a filter for überhaupt viability of organisms is correct. In my book natural selection acts on a priori viable organisms offered by chance.Box
January 8, 2014
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bornagain77, you asked who gets to determine what is fit ? I don't know what the temperature is where you are but go outside and see how long you last if it is cold. Now who determined that temperature ? The methodological naturalism view is that we assume that the natural environment is of a materialistic cause. That outside temperature is just one example of what is determining what is fit.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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I think an evolutionist emphasizing that natural selection is not random is Iike a Trekkie arguing that Klingon is a real language. Both are technically correct but their entire edifices rest upon fantasy.OldArmy94
January 8, 2014
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LP #46:
1 – Mutate at random. 2 – Eliminate what is unfit 3 – Copy survivors. 4 – Repeat (1…)
Translation:
1 – Chance creates viable organisms against all odds. 2 – Natural selection steps in and heaves away like a madman.* 3 – Copy survivors of the bloodthirsty madman. 4 – Repeat (1…)
* Among other things “eliminate what is unfit” means, killing off what is perfectly fit under different circumstances. IOWs natural selection just throws up obstacles for chance. I disagree with Jerry (# 49) who claims that natural selection “is a non-factor in evolution”. Natural selection is a destructive force which makes the likelihood of the existence of life considerably less likely than under chance alone.Box
January 8, 2014
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Even if a mutation gives an animal some kind environmental benefit, say increased fitness with regards to the climate.. it's predators are not going to be bothered by it. Selection by predation will continue in an essentially random process. In other words, a mutation that increases fitness on one selection landscape, is still effectively neutral on a myriad other selection landscapes. You could call this "fitness noise". Therefore the vast majority of even beneficial mutations would only fixate by chance. This is why darwinists are always showing people pictures of moths that changed color. It's one of the rare examples of selection that actually makes sense. (and facilitated by a mere cosmetic variation) But very few fitness benefits can be conceptualized in the context of a predator-prey scenario. What can really potentially improve in a shrimp genome to give it an edge on a passing whale gobbling up dozens at a time? The only darwinist response I've seen to this problem is hand-waving, claiming it will all "average out" over time, with no further explanation. If someone can point me to even one neo-darwinist openly dealing with this issue I would be surprised.lifepsy
January 8, 2014
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The term "fit" is a meaningless term. It is circular. What is fit, those that survive. Given different boundary or initial conditions a different population skew of heritable characteristics survives. We are still left with the problem of no new information of consequence.jerry
January 8, 2014
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From what I have read so far on this thread Lincoln Phipps has described natural selection correctly. We been down this road before hundreds of times. Natural selection never produces anything new of consequence which is why it is a non-factor in evolution. That is the issue.jerry
January 8, 2014
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