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Commenter Apparently Believes that Only Part of Darwinian Evolution is “blind/mindless/unguided.” Maybe, if We Ask Nice, He Will Enlighten Us Poor Benighted ID Slobs About Which Part is “Seeing, Mindful and Guided.”

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In the comment section to a prior post commenters “Joe” and “AVS” are having a tussle over whether Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided.  It is fascinating and instructive.  Let’s see.

First, Joe asked: “How does one test anything wrt unguided evolution?”

To which AVS responded:  “The fact that you call it “unguided evolution” tells me everything I need to know about you. One of those things is that trying to talk to you about science would be like trying to talk to a wall.”

This is an interesting response, because some of the leading Darwinists in the world have noted that evolution is a blind unguided process.  One would have thought that the proposition that Darwinian evolution is unguided was uncontroversial, and Joe responded as by posting the following quotes:

Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic. UCBerkley

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?

AVS responds with the inevitable “quote mining” accusation when Darwinists are quoted to support a proposition:  “SO you mash two quotes up from two unrelated people and repeat them completely out of context?”

Joe asks:  “How are the quotes out of context?”

AVS responds to my question about why he believes Joe took the quotes out of context:

I’m saying that evolution has both random, or blind/mindless/unguided processes as Joe here likes to call them, as well as having non-random processes. You need both parts,and it’s the second part that you and your friends here like to ignore apparently.  Maybe you can explain to Joe why he’s so clueless.

In summary:

1.  Joe says that Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, and he quotes, among others, Dawkins, to back that up.

2.  AVS says Joe does not know what he is talking about and that he mined the Dawkins quote.

3.  When asked to demonstrate how the Dawkins quote has been taken out of context, AVS says that evolution is part random and part non-random.

Let’s evaluate AVS’s argument, such as it is:

He asserts that Darwinian evolution has a “random” component and a “non-random” component, and that is true enough.  The random component is the random changes that occur in the genome through, for example, random genetic mutations.  The non-random part is, of course, natural selection, which takes the random changes in the genome and “selects” for those that increase fitness.

Here’s where AVS falls overboard.  He characterizes only the “random” component of Darwinian evolution as “blind, mindless and unguided.”  Apparently, he believes that the non-random component (i.e., natural selection) is not “blind, mindless and unguided.”

But that is just Joe’s point.  BOTH parts of the Darwinian evolution equation are blind, mindless and unguided.  That is Dawkins’ point as well when he says that even natural selection (the non-random part AVS) is blind.  By blind, mindless and unguided, Joe (and Dawkins) mean that Darwinian evolution does not have foresight.  It cannot plan for distant goals.  It has no purpose.  They do not mean that it is entirely random.

To the extent that AVS denies that any part of Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, he must mean that some part of it is seeing, mindful and guided.  But that is obviously false.  AVS has mistakenly equated “non-random” with “not blind, mindless and unguided.”

In summary, therefore, AVS owes Joe an apology on two counts:  (1) for falsely accusing him of taking the quotes out of context; and (2) for ridiculing him when he himself is the one who is obviously wrong.

The irony, of course, is that even in his obvious error AVS plays the typical blustering Darwinist – serenely confident in his own intelligence and rectitude even when he is glaringly wrong.  I will leave you with this:  AVS compares his knowledge to Joe’s and says  he, AVS, is the “person who has forgotten more biology” than Joe will ever know.  Pathetic?  Laughable?  Both?  I will let the readers decide.

Comments
Mr. Phipp's and exactly who gets to determine what is fit in the algorithm? LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Information. What is it? - Robert Marks - lecture video (With special reference to ev, AVIDA, and WEASEL) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7seCcS_gPk Conservation of Information Made Simple - William A. Dembski - August, 2012 Excerpt: Biological configuration spaces of possible genes and proteins, for instance, are immense, and finding a functional gene or protein in such spaces via blind search can be vastly more improbable than finding an arbitrary electron in the known physical universe. ,,, ,,,Given this background discussion and motivation, we are now in a position to give a reasonably precise formulation of conservation of information, namely: raising the probability of success of a search does nothing to make attaining the target easier, and may in fact make it more difficult, once the informational costs involved in raising the probability of success are taken into account. Search is costly, and the cost must be paid in terms of information. Searches achieve success not by creating information but by taking advantage of existing information. The information that leads to successful search admits no bargains, only apparent bargains that must be paid in full elsewhere. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/conservation_of063671.html Before They've Even Seen Stephen Meyer's New Book, Darwinists Waste No Time in Criticizing Darwin's Doubt - William A. Dembski - April 4, 2013 Excerpt: In the newer approach to conservation of information, the focus is not on drawing design inferences but on understanding search in general and how information facilitates successful search. The focus is therefore not so much on individual probabilities as on probability distributions and how they change as searches incorporate information. My universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 (a perennial sticking point for Shallit and Felsenstein) therefore becomes irrelevant in the new form of conservation of information whereas in the earlier it was essential because there a certain probability threshold had to be attained before conservation of information could be said to apply. The new form is more powerful and conceptually elegant. Rather than lead to a design inference, it shows that accounting for the information required for successful search leads to a regress that only intensifies as one backtracks. It therefore suggests an ultimate source of information, which it can reasonably be argued is a designer. I explain all this in a nontechnical way in an article I posted at ENV a few months back titled "Conservation of Information Made Simple" (go here). ,,, ,,, Here are the two seminal papers on conservation of information that I've written with Robert Marks: "The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of Higher-Level Search," Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics 14(5) (2010): 475-486 "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, 5(5) (September 2009): 1051-1061 For other papers that Marks, his students, and I have done to extend the results in these papers, visit the publications page at www.evoinfo.org http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/before_theyve_e070821.html "The mechanical brain does not secrete thought "as the liver does bile," as the earlier materialists claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day." Norbert Wiener created the modern field of control and communication systems, utilizing concepts like negative feedback. His seminal 1948 book Cybernetics both defined and named the new field. http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/wiener/ John Lennox - Is There Evidence of Something Beyond Nature? (Semiotic Information) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6rd4HEdffw "Our experience-based knowledge of information-flow confirms that systems with large amounts of specified complexity (especially codes and languages) invariably originate from an intelligent source -- from a mind or personal agent." (Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, 117(2):213-239 (2004).) "A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor). It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required. ,,,there is no known law of nature and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter. Werner Gitt 1997 In The Beginning Was Information pp. 64-67, 79, 107." (The retired Dr Gitt was a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology (Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Braunschweig), the Head of the Department of Information Technology.)bornagain77
January 8, 2014
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LP: Nope, you have left off the usually implicit use of targets and oracles that point to targets. For instance that is what uphill pointing nice-behaved fitness functions do. The problem faced by blind chance and necessity approaches is to FIND and get to shorelines of islands of function in seas of configurations that are overwhelmingly non functional and of scales beyond the search capacity of the solar system or observed cosmos. Dawkins' Weasel and his easy back slope up Mt Improbable beg big questions. Cf my remarks at 26 above for starters. This is most easily seen in the context of OOL, where the usual distractor NS is off the table, or rather is one of the things that has to get started. And nope, OOL is the ROOT of the tree of life so you cannot rule an arbitrary datum line along the lines of a neat little definition of what Evolution covers, to avoid dealing with it. The tree of life is the first and foremost icon of evo, and has a root, address it. No root, nothing beyond. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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Box, no you don't understand genetic algorithms. Start.... 1 - Mutate at random. 2 - Eliminate what is unfit 3 - Copy survivors. 4 - Repeat (1...) Without the step 2 then it is just endless mutate and there is never any selection of fit mutations.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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PS: Where simply from Dawkins' book title on Blind Watchmakers, it should be obvious what is going on.kairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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Onlookers: See how we are debating definitions again in a context where the matter should otherwise be obvious? See why I call definitionitis -- thanks NW for that term -- a fallacy? And, one of distraction, yet another red herring running away from the track of the substantial issue? KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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LP: Constraint and influence are commonly used in science in a non-agency context. Think of how Le Chetalier's principle that allows evaluation of the direction of a chemical reaction is phrased. Guide is not so used. We are speaking in a scientific context. And, in general usage -- as Joe aptly highlighted -- differential reproductive success leading to loss of less lucky or successful varieties [aka natural selection . . . now you know why I spell it out], is meant not to be foresighted, it will only affect present performance or non-performance, or the happenstance we call luck. For instance if an improved clutch of eggs in a nest gets blown tot he ground and the eggs break, tough luck. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps on natural selection:
LP #37: It’s what makes chance work at all.
Nope, it just throws up more obstacles for chance.Box
January 8, 2014
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Joe, good to see you are back and well.Box
January 8, 2014
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KF #26: Loss of less successful or lucky varieties due to differential reproductive success on the ground, SUBTRACTS varieties from the population.
Indeed, so it follows that "natural selection" opposes "chance" - it just throws up more obstacles. Hence adding natural selection to the alleged evolutionary algorithm makes the existence of life less likely than if "chance" was acting alone.Box
January 8, 2014
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For LP" I don’t know if natural selection is non-random. Natural selection is non-random in that whenever you have differential reproduction due to heritable random variation(s), you have natural selection. However when it comes to what survives to reproduce, it is still whatever is good enough. And that is as non-random as the spread pattern from a sawed-off shotgun shooting bird shot, measured 25? away. Natural selection is just differential reproduction DUE TO random heritable variations. It is an output with 3 inputs. The variation part is totally random. Heritability is not guaranteed that also has a bit of chance in it. And reproduction requires finding a suitable mate- more randomness. 3 inputs- 1 totally random with the other 2 containing random components. Joe
January 8, 2014
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Lincoln- natural selection eliminates the less fit. And that is not a designer mimic mechanism. “Natural selection is the result of differences in survival and reproduction among individuals of a population that vary in one or more heritable traits.” Page 11 “Biology: Concepts and Applications” Starr fifth edition “Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view.” Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker” “Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic.”- UC Berkley on Evolution Natural selection- The process by which in every generation individuals of lower fitness are removed from the population- Mayr "What Evolution Is" The first step in selection, the production of genetic variation, is almost exclusively a chance phenomenon except that the nature of the changes at a given locus is strongly constrained. Chance also plays an important role even at the second step, the process of elimination of less fit individuals. Chance may be particularly important in the haphazard survival during periods of mass extinction. IbidJoe
January 8, 2014
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box, nope natural selection isn't anything and it is not a single mechanism but the term for the results, (which are) those things that were sufficiently fit in the problem landscape that is the natural world. It's what makes chance work at all.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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KF, that's the problem; it is just the words are insufficiently nuanced. You said "Natural forces and circumstances may constrain or influence a process, object or phenomenon etc, but that is a different thing." "constrain" can mean agency, "influence" can mean agency too. So guide, steer, constrain, influence can all mean agency. But slapping un- in front of those isn't what is meant either. Rivers are not un-guided by geology, they very much follow a path that is guided by geology but there is no agency (there can be if man has built something to do this). I obviously don't mean Panentheism any more than I mean Pantheism.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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When "Chance" somehow succeeds in creating viable life forms it faces a formidable opponent: the grim reaper aka "Natural Selection" - the madman who heaves away on what lives against all odds.Box
January 8, 2014
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BTW people, not all rivers flow to the sea...Joe
January 8, 2014
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Mark Frank- ID talks about targets because Intelligent Design Evolution's main mechanism is a targeted seach ala genetic algorithms which employ a goal-oriented targeted search. And contra Lizzie that means that GAs dso NOT mimic darwqinian evolution.Joe
January 8, 2014
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LP: Nature as understood by evolutionary materialists and fellow travellers, does no "steering," a term that implies purpose and intelligently directed contingency. If you mean instead to assert something like panentheism, kindly be explicit. Natural forces and circumstances may constrain or influence a process, object or phenomenon etc, but that is a different thing. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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For once I agree with Barry and Joe. Surely "guided" is the wrong term for natural selection. "Guided" implies some kind of target. Even the water courses are guiding the water towards something (the sea). Natural selection has no target and this is an important point as much of the ID literature talks about targets.Mark Frank
January 8, 2014
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Natural Selection is not a single mechanism but the term for the results, (which are) those things that were sufficiently fit in the problem landscape that is the natural world. If someone says "guided" then it generally means guided by agency but (excluding pantheism), nature is not in itself an agent. But nature clearly steers organisms e.g. the amount of light or the temperature creates a problem landscape that organisms have to traverse. The geology of the Earth's surface is what guides a naturally forming river. A man-made drainage channel or flood defence can also guide a river. There is never an issue with using "guide" in both cases as agency is implied with the man-made structure and is not a concern in the natural water-flow case as the politics of ID have not yet hit civil engineering. Water doesn't randomly flow from mountain to sea but it is guided by natural water courses. Are those natural water courses designed ? Not obviously. Whilst we can see the river flow, we have no seen the earlier river cut the path, nor have we seen the land heave or plate or fault movements. Where rivers have changed then they remain a micro-change in the same river. As an analogy with life then we have the same problem; we have not seen life form. We observe small changes in today's life. We are uncertain as to the exact pathway to get to today's living things. Will we ever know ? Yes in so as much as empirical science allows so asymptotic to any truth.Lincoln Phipps
January 8, 2014
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Oops, the PPS is an unintended cross-post. Pardon.kairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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PPS: Cf here on for a101 level backgrounder on astronomy and cosmology leading to the design inference on fine tuning.kairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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AVS: Just a simple question. What has "random" or "nor random" to do with "guided" or "unguided"? They are completely different categories and meanings. You are perfectly right if you simply state that NS is "not random", whatever it can or cannot do. NS is a necessity algorithm. But you are perfectly wrong if you state that NS is not "unguided". It is, like any other necessity mechanism, "unguided", unless you mean that it is guided by the laws of nature, which would be true for practically everything. A clear answer would be appreciated.gpuccio
January 8, 2014
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BA (attn. AVS): And here we see the rhetorical power of that oh so cleverly crafted phrase, "natural selection"; crafted by way of direct comparison with "artificial selection" -- e.g. for pigeon breeding. (And yes, I am pointing fingers directly at a certain famous pigeon fancier who wrote a rather influential book or two that pivot on that argument by imagined analogy.) Let us never underestimate the power of connotations and context to subtly shape perceptions of meaning. The truth is, the only actual claimed information source in the various proposed darwinist mechanisms is chance variation. Loss of less successful or lucky varieties due to differential reproductive success on the ground, SUBTRACTS varieties from the population. This is held to be the source of onward incremental descent with modification, thence onward branching tree micro and macro evolution and thence the darwinist tree of life:
CV - DRS --> IDWM --> BTm&ME --> DTOL
We need not underscore that such mechanisms have not been empirically shown as capable of anything beyond micro variations and adaptations; mostly by loss of function. We need not emphasise here that FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 of so bits, is not credibly the result of a blind, non-foresighted process as we are just seeing. We need not highlight that by the simple requisites of well-matched, multiple parts in proper arrangement and coupling, specific config dependent function will come in deeply isolated rare islands in the space of possible configs, leading to there being no path based on differential function and reproductive success between islands [0 function - 0 function = 0 difference] so that such a process only credibly explains adaptation within such an island. And more. All that is needed is to underscore that unless there is an immediate difference in function and the like (with a significant bit of luck involved) then there is nothing based on different information content as expressed that makes a difference in success. So, there is no way for filtering by incremental superiority to point uphill, save for isolated minor adaptations within islands of function. (Where the real problem all along is how to get to the islands of function. [See why the Darwinist objectors have fought t so long and hard to try to get us not to talk about that little problem of finding shorelines of islands of function for differential reproductive success based on incremental superiority to kick in? And, why they are so hot to get us not to point to the capital case on such, malaria and sickle cell, as analysed by Behe? And wasn't there a case of Tom Cods too along much the same lines where the variety that succeeded in the polluted Hudson waters was not able to take over in nearby Long Island waters? As well as the point that the varieties of bugs that have survived in hospitals because of drug resistance are not well adapted to the wider environment? And more?]) And, so we see yet again, the problem of gross, empirically and analytically unwarranted extrapolation and ungrounded analogies being used to try to create the false impression that the darwinist mechanisms have succeeded in explaining the world of life. In this case, it looks like the attempt is being made to use the connotations of "selection" to lead us to imagine that the above process of chance variation less eliminated varieties that in local env'ts were unlucky or unsuccessful, suffices to be a foresighted guide, and oracle for development. If so, simply show us a case within OBSERVATION that demonstrates 500 - 1,000+ bits of successful addition of functional genetic information, that creates a material change in body plan. For, we should not entertain mere speculations but only candidate causes shown to have relevant capabilities in our observation. (And such will have to also address the bridge of generation times, breeding pop numbers, realistic mutation rates and time to fix a new variety.) KF PS: Jaceli123, you will want to see how that works out. Cf here for a discussion in a vid for the case of whales by Sternberg. Ewet et al here raise interesting observations also.kairosfocus
January 8, 2014
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We have a name for guided natural selection. It's called artificial section.sixthbook
January 7, 2014
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Cassie, read the OP again. No one is calling Darwinian evolution "entirely random."Barry Arrington
January 7, 2014
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Hi there everyone. Whatever genetic sequences are key to survival of an organism ( that are of course, expressed and do not undergo changes that render them useless) will be passed on to the next generation. Is this a guided process? No, I agree. But it can't be called entirely random because the results yield that which is key to the survival of the organism. If it was completely random, then the results would be a mish mash of useless and and even less useless traits.Cassie
January 7, 2014
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Natural selection is about as guided as the weather. Also, great quotes by Sermonti. I have to get back to finishing that book. Yes, it is obvious natural selection is effectively a stabilizer, keeping a species fluctuating around their normal wild-type. There is absolutely nothing that even remotely suggests some "environmental niches" are going to come along and propel an organism into some novel evolutionary progression. Complete nonsense, the stuff of sci-fi. It's funny how such reasonable, observation based conclusions will amount to heresy, just because they contradict an imagined idea about something nobody can see or test that supposedly happened millions of years ago. Truly bizarre that some nutty 19th century pseudo-science will discourage people from pointing out redundantly obvious aspects of natural processes.lifepsy
January 7, 2014
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Why do you guys keep feeding that troll?Sebestyen
January 7, 2014
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It has to be embarrassing for an evolutionist when IDists prove they know more about evolution than they do. Lizzie, et al., just deny they don't understand evolution and refuse to budge even in the face of references that refute their PoV wrt evolution. Strange how that works- IDists produce reference after reference supporting their claims wrt evolution and evos still say that we don't understand it even though it is clear that we understand it better than they do. Gotta love itJoe
January 7, 2014
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Methinks AVS thought he was going to make a point to show us fools the wise ways of evolution but instead backed himself into a corner. So, instead of quietly exiting stage left, he is making a fool of himself. I think Jerry Coyne would be proud!OldArmy94
January 7, 2014
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