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Commenter Apparently Believes that Only Part of Darwinian Evolution is “blind/mindless/unguided.” Maybe, if We Ask Nice, He Will Enlighten Us Poor Benighted ID Slobs About Which Part is “Seeing, Mindful and Guided.”

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In the comment section to a prior post commenters “Joe” and “AVS” are having a tussle over whether Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided.  It is fascinating and instructive.  Let’s see.

First, Joe asked: “How does one test anything wrt unguided evolution?”

To which AVS responded:  “The fact that you call it “unguided evolution” tells me everything I need to know about you. One of those things is that trying to talk to you about science would be like trying to talk to a wall.”

This is an interesting response, because some of the leading Darwinists in the world have noted that evolution is a blind unguided process.  One would have thought that the proposition that Darwinian evolution is unguided was uncontroversial, and Joe responded as by posting the following quotes:

Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic. UCBerkley

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?

AVS responds with the inevitable “quote mining” accusation when Darwinists are quoted to support a proposition:  “SO you mash two quotes up from two unrelated people and repeat them completely out of context?”

Joe asks:  “How are the quotes out of context?”

AVS responds to my question about why he believes Joe took the quotes out of context:

I’m saying that evolution has both random, or blind/mindless/unguided processes as Joe here likes to call them, as well as having non-random processes. You need both parts,and it’s the second part that you and your friends here like to ignore apparently.  Maybe you can explain to Joe why he’s so clueless.

In summary:

1.  Joe says that Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, and he quotes, among others, Dawkins, to back that up.

2.  AVS says Joe does not know what he is talking about and that he mined the Dawkins quote.

3.  When asked to demonstrate how the Dawkins quote has been taken out of context, AVS says that evolution is part random and part non-random.

Let’s evaluate AVS’s argument, such as it is:

He asserts that Darwinian evolution has a “random” component and a “non-random” component, and that is true enough.  The random component is the random changes that occur in the genome through, for example, random genetic mutations.  The non-random part is, of course, natural selection, which takes the random changes in the genome and “selects” for those that increase fitness.

Here’s where AVS falls overboard.  He characterizes only the “random” component of Darwinian evolution as “blind, mindless and unguided.”  Apparently, he believes that the non-random component (i.e., natural selection) is not “blind, mindless and unguided.”

But that is just Joe’s point.  BOTH parts of the Darwinian evolution equation are blind, mindless and unguided.  That is Dawkins’ point as well when he says that even natural selection (the non-random part AVS) is blind.  By blind, mindless and unguided, Joe (and Dawkins) mean that Darwinian evolution does not have foresight.  It cannot plan for distant goals.  It has no purpose.  They do not mean that it is entirely random.

To the extent that AVS denies that any part of Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, he must mean that some part of it is seeing, mindful and guided.  But that is obviously false.  AVS has mistakenly equated “non-random” with “not blind, mindless and unguided.”

In summary, therefore, AVS owes Joe an apology on two counts:  (1) for falsely accusing him of taking the quotes out of context; and (2) for ridiculing him when he himself is the one who is obviously wrong.

The irony, of course, is that even in his obvious error AVS plays the typical blustering Darwinist – serenely confident in his own intelligence and rectitude even when he is glaringly wrong.  I will leave you with this:  AVS compares his knowledge to Joe’s and says  he, AVS, is the “person who has forgotten more biology” than Joe will ever know.  Pathetic?  Laughable?  Both?  I will let the readers decide.

Comments
So AVS shows up here, again, with all of its bluffing bluster and runs away like the typical coward once its ignorance and dishonesty is exposed.Joe
January 7, 2014
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AVS admits that it is unfixable and stupid.Joe
January 7, 2014
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Sorry axel, you can't fix stupid.AVS
January 7, 2014
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Well, Joe, I have to say, you got suckered into that with your eyes open! You should have said right at the start. 'There, there.. AVS. You're absolutely right. I bow to your superior knowledge. Pardon me while I drift of from our little dispute, to see if I can find a simpler subject. Feel free to enlighten my benighted colleagues, won't you? They could sure do with your input.'Axel
January 7, 2014
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So AVS can't support any of its claims and can only spew false accusations and cowardly innuendos. Typical...Joe
January 7, 2014
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LoL! Obvioulsy I know more than you do.Joe
January 7, 2014
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Wow you really are BA-lite. Do you guys share notes around the kool-aid cooler? Seriously Joe, why are you still talking about biology? You know nothing about it.AVS
January 7, 2014
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Chapter IV of prominent geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti's book Why is a Fly Not a Horse? is titled "Wobbling Stability". In that chapter he discusses what I have been talking about in other threads- that populations oscillate. The following is what he has to say which is based on thorough scientific investigation:
Sexuality has brought joy to the world, to the world of the wild beasts, and to the world of flowers, but it has brought an end to evolution. In the lineages of living beings, whenever absent-minded Venus has taken the upper hand, forms have forgotten to make progress. It is only the husbandman that has improved strains, and he has done so by bullying, enslaving, and segregating. All these methods, of course, have made for sad, alienated animals, but they have not resulted in new species. Left to themselves, domesticated breeds would either die out or revert to the wild state—scarcely a commendable model for nature’s progress.
(snip a few paragraphs on peppered moths)
Natural Selection, which indeed occurs in nature (as Bishop Wilberforce, too, was perfectly aware), mainly has the effect of maintaining equilibrium and stability. It eliminates all those that dare depart from the type—the eccentrics and the adventurers and the marginal sort. It is ever adjusting populations, but it does so in each case by bringing them back to the norm. We read in the textbooks that, when environmental conditions change, the selection process may produce a shift in a population’s mean values, by a process known as adaptation. If the climate turns very cold, the cold-adapted beings are favored relative to others.; if it becomes windy, the wind blows away those that are most exposed; if an illness breaks out, those in questionable health will be lost. But all these artful guiles serve their purpose only until the clouds blow away. The species, in fact, is an organic entity, a typical form, which may deviate only to return to the furrow of its destiny; it may wander from the band only to find its proper place by returning to the gang.
Everything that disassembles, upsets proportions or becomes distorted in any way is sooner or later brought back to the type. There has been a tendency to confuse fleeting adjustments with grand destinies, minor shrewdness with signs of the times.
It is true that species may lose something on the way—the mole its eyes, say, and the succulent plant its leaves, never to recover them again. But here we are dealing with unhappy, mutilated species, at the margins of their area of distribution—the extreme and the specialized. These are species with no future; they are not pioneers, but prisoners in nature’s penitentiary.
Not such a powerful designer mimic after all. But there is one thing it can do- it can undo what artificial selection has done.Joe
January 7, 2014
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Strange, I quote a leading evo and AVS sez that I am making the claim. You are just an ignorant troll, AVSJoe
January 7, 2014
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I didn't make that claim. However what does it do and what is your evidence?Joe
January 7, 2014
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Ah, now we are making the claim that natural selection does nothing? Hmm, that's strange because some of your friends on here would disgree with you and say that it is capable of small changes. You should be careful about from where and what you pull your BS from, Joe.AVS
January 7, 2014
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AVS is totally ignorant, and it shows. Blind and mindless can't select anything, The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, 1971), reissued in 2001 by William Provine:
Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets. (pp. 199-200)
Thanks for the honesty Will.Joe
January 7, 2014
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"Darwin was trying to clever and fool people" Really? Seriously, I think I overshot when I said 7th grade. I'm glad your friends here called attention to your absolute lunacy. Congratulations ladies, thank you for doing my work for me.AVS
January 7, 2014
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Wow, ok then apparently you are simply in denial or you simply have no idea what you are talking about. Cmon people its called SELECTION. What does "whatever is still good enough," when it comes to reproduction, even mean? Is that the kind of sciency talk they tech you in the seventh grade now? Species fill their ecological niche, overfill it, those that can best adapt will survive to reproduce. That's as simple as I can make it. Yes the variation is random, but the selection from the variations is not completely random, it is guided. Is this really that hard to grasp people?AVS
January 7, 2014
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Great, AVS links to the site that I quoted from and tells us to read it. LoL!Joe
January 7, 2014
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Nature doesn't select, AVS. Darwin was trying to clever and fool people- well he fooled you.
You see evolution as a blind man lost in a mall, I see evolution as a blind man with a white cane and a seeing-eye dog.
Your view of evolution differs from the leading evolutionary experts. When you get your PoV published we will take notice. Until then it is meaningless.Joe
January 7, 2014
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I don't know if natural selection is non-random. Natural selection is non-random in that whenever you have differential reproduction due to heritable random variation(s), you have natural selection. However when it comes to what survives to reproduce, it is still whatever is good enough. And that is as non-random as the spread pattern from a sawed-off shotgun shooting bird shot, measured 25' away. Natural selection is just differential reproduction DUE TO random heritable variations. It is an output with 3 inputs. The variation part is totally random. Heritability is not guaranteed that also has a bit of chance in it. And reproduction requires finding a suitable mate- more randomness. 3 inputs- 1 totally random with the other 2 containing random components.Joe
January 7, 2014
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Awwww, you guys shouldn't have. Let's think about the word "selection" for a little bit, ok guys? Hmmm...selection...selection. Now let's put it together with non-random..... Non-random...selection....hmmmmmm it is starting to sound like this process has a little guidance. Here's how I tried to explain in the post before: You see evolution as a blind man lost in a mall, I see evolution as a blind man with a white cane and a seeing-eye dog. Here's a site I ran into to give you guys a bit of an education, just the basics of evolution http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.phpAVS
January 7, 2014
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