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“Conservation of Information” — on the choice of expression

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Conservation of information as developed in several articles (see the publications page at www.evoinfo.org) by Robert Marks and me has come in for criticism not only conceptually but also terminologically. None of the conceptual criticisms has in our view succeeded. To be sure, more such criticisms are likely to be forthcoming. But as this work increasingly gets into the peer-reviewed literature, it will be harder and harder to dismiss.

That leaves the terminological criticism. Some have objected that a conservation law requires that the quantity in question remain unchanged. Take conservation of energy, which states that in an isolated system energy may change forms but total energy remains constant. Some have argued that what we are calling conservation of information is more like entropy. But that’s not the case either. Entropy, as characterized by the second law of thermodynamics, says that usable energy will diffuse and thus be guaranteed (with overwhelming probability) to increase. Hence entropy, unless usable energy is in a maximally diffuse state, will change and cannot rightly be regarded as falling under a conservation principle.

Conservation of information, by contrast, falls in a middle-ground between conservation of energy and entropy. Conservation of information says that the information that must be inputted into a search for it to successfully locate a target cannot fall below the information that a search outputs in successfully locating a target. Robert Marks and I show that this characterization of conservation of information is non-tautological. But as stated, it suggests that as we move logically upstream and try to account for successful search, the information cost of success cannot fall below a certain lower bound.

Strictly speaking, what is conserved then is not the actual inputs of information to make a search successful but the minimum information cost required for success. Inefficiencies in information usage may lead to more information being inputted into a search than is outputted. Conservation of information thus characterizes information costs when such inefficiencies are avoided. Thus it seems to Robert Marks and me that the expression “conservation of information” is in fact appropriate.

Comments
serendipity, Active Information is simply log_2(q/p) where p is the probability of blind, null search achieving success and q is the probability of success for an assisted search, such as evolutionary search with a suitable fitness function. This is a simple definition. Perhaps you can explain what you find unclear about it? As for the "conservation" aspect, Bill has made clear that it is this information baseline that is conserved. You disapprove of this and say it is similar to entropy. That's fine, you're free to call the law whatever you like. Dembski clearly stated his reasons for using conservation, citing past precedence among other things, so I won't fault him for that. If you do I don't see the point trying to convince you otherwise as he's already given his reasons. Come up with your own label for -log(|Q|/|O2|) >= log(q/p) (to borrow R0b's concise formulation.) I'll continue to call it the LCI. Atom AtomAtom
June 2, 2009
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Atom asks:
Would you rather they be more specific and call it the “Law of Conservation of Minimum Information Cost”? They could do that, but it lacks the same ring.
Atom, When you're proposing a law of nature, don't you think accuracy is a little more important than whether the name of the law has a nice "ring" to it? In any case, the problems with the LCI go beyond the misuse of the word "conservation". The term "information" is also used questionably. By "information", Dembski and Marks mean "active information", which is their own idiosyncratic invention. The rest of the world takes "information" to mean something quite different. It's as if I were to propose a universal "Law of Obfuscation of Matter", only to reveal that I was redefining both "obfuscation" and "matter" in ways that were unique to me. If it's not about conservation and it's not about information, then why call it the "Law of Conservation of Information?" At the very least, Dembski and Marks should drop the word "conservation" and substitute "active information" for "information."serendipity
June 2, 2009
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[15] TM English: While I don't agree with your conclusion entirely, I think you've framed the issue of whether or not uniform probability distributions can be used in phase space, as we encounter them in nature, about as well as I've seen it. But consider this in regards to 'repeatable experiments': is it not possible to conduct an experiment in which DNA nucleotides are combined to see whether there is any kind of preference shown to a particular nucleotide, or to particular strings of nucleotides? If none is observed, then would not uniform probabilities be applied in the same way as the person throwing a die? The phase space of a protein that corresponds to a particular sequence of such nucleotides seems to be independent of the combinatrics involved in any given string of nucleotides.PaV
June 2, 2009
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Atom @13
See Walter ReMine’s ordeal on getting a simple article on Haldane’s Dilemma published.
Was it rejected solely because of Mr. ReMine's well-known views or did it just not meet the level of quality required by the journals to which he submitted it? Even very good papers are rejected by the most prestigious journals such as Nature and Science.
The vitriol I witness anytime ID is mentioned in scientific circles combined with the the way ID is misrepresented by various organizations (including papers published in prestigious journals and editorials) as well as in the media, leaves little doubt to the hostile climate ID scientists currently face. Add to that the documented cases of reprisal for mere darwin doubting and you can judge for yourself how likely the well-known journals would be to publish pro-ID papers.
Do you have evidence that any particular journal has unfairly rejected an otherwise high quality and appropriate paper solely because it supported ID? If so, can you provide a reference to that paper?
Look at the firestorm surrounding Sternberg after he allowed Dr. Stephen Meyer’s article to go through the review process. Most people don’t want to go through what Sternberg did, so I can’t really blame them.
I've read both sides of the Sternberg case and, while I know it isn't the conventional wisdom here at UD, it appears that he did circumvent the usual publication guidelines for the journal he was editing.
Things will continue this way for some time until people lose their fear of ID. You can only misrepresent something for so long; one by one, people eventually find out what a view really is. Doors will eventually open for ID scientists (even if not in our generation), and I have no doubt that eventually both pro-ID and anti-ID articles will regularly be printed in the journals. It is just a matter of time.
Where are the rejected articles?
Sorry if my comments were offensive, but the backlash ID scientists face is much more offensive. Hopefully the journals will prove they’re not biased against ID by allowing ID scientists to at least respond in their journals to papers directly concerning their work. That would be a step forward.
Again, do you have any actual evidence of the unfair rejection you claim these journals practice? If you can't provide the actual papers that were rejected and demonstrate that they were otherwise suitable for the journal and capable of passing peer review, then your claims are baseless. You shouldn't make allegations as serious as you are without solid support. JJJayM
June 2, 2009
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Bill,
Conservation of information says that the information that must be inputted into a search for it to successfully locate a target cannot fall below the information that a search outputs in successfully locating a target.
Physical systems do not hop uniformly over their phase spaces. Uniform search is merely simulated in nature -- one physical system controls and samples another. For instance, a person rolls a precision die over a flat surface, waits for it to come to rest, and then counts the pips on the top surface. Physical search is typically far from uniform, while physical simulation of uniform search requires that one system input information to another. The fact that material systems do not arbitrarily morph in configuration from one instant to the next (realize uniform search processes) does not give us warrant to believe that something input information to the cosmos (designed the "laws" of nature). You cannot frame physical constraints as the outcome of a repeatable experiment, and thus you generally have no basis for speaking of the physical probability of a physically constrained search process. Only when one casts a search process as a repeatable experiment can one refer to the physical chances of its doing what it does. You have not done this. And there would remain vexing philosophical problems, even if you did.T M English
June 2, 2009
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William Dembski writes:
I would say, however, that it is quite different from entropy. Concentrate a gas in a corner of a box, and it WILL diffuse at a given rate and entropy will correspondingly increase.
Yet if you distribute the gas molecules randomly, entropy will not increase.
On the other hand, go back in time and track the information that enables a search to be successful, and you know that you’ll be finding at least a certain amount of information. But you don’t know whether it will be more.
The same is true for entropy (with the sign reversed, of course): Go back in time, and you know that you'll be finding at least a certain amount of entropy. But you don't know whether it will be less. Since the situation is exactly parallel, why does the LCI merit the status of "conservation law" if the SLoT does not?
Also, it’s worth noting that the word “conservation” has been coming up in these discussions for some time now...
It's also worth noting that the proposals of Medawar and Schaffer are not considered laws of nature by the majority of scientists.serendipity
June 2, 2009
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JayM, See Walter ReMine's ordeal on getting a simple article on Haldane's Dilemma published. The vitriol I witness anytime ID is mentioned in scientific circles combined with the the way ID is misrepresented by various organizations (including papers published in prestigious journals and editorials) as well as in the media, leaves little doubt to the hostile climate ID scientists currently face. Add to that the documented cases of reprisal for mere darwin doubting and you can judge for yourself how likely the well-known journals would be to publish pro-ID papers. Look at the firestorm surrounding Sternberg after he allowed Dr. Stephen Meyer's article to go through the review process. Most people don't want to go through what Sternberg did, so I can't really blame them. Things will continue this way for some time until people lose their fear of ID. You can only misrepresent something for so long; one by one, people eventually find out what a view really is. Doors will eventually open for ID scientists (even if not in our generation), and I have no doubt that eventually both pro-ID and anti-ID articles will regularly be printed in the journals. It is just a matter of time. Sorry if my comments were offensive, but the backlash ID scientists face is much more offensive. Hopefully the journals will prove they're not biased against ID by allowing ID scientists to at least respond in their journals to papers directly concerning their work. That would be a step forward. AtomAtom
June 2, 2009
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Dr Dembski, Yes, that was the quote I was refering to. You say that your books have accomplished their end. What end is that?
I’m encouraged that the engineering community is open to my ideas and willing to publish them.
Many,if not most, of the most active debates and discussions on this board relate to biological evolution (and the limits thereof). Have you then put a hold on attempting to make headway with your ideas in the biological community?George L Farquhar
June 2, 2009
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Atom,
I think the only change has been a journal’s willingness to publish something from a well-known ID advocate.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as the journal is yet to be named can we make assumptions about it's willingness to publish content from well-known ID advocates, insofar as it's normal content may be as "controversial" as the well-known ID advocates? I'm not saying it is, of course, or would have to be but it's currently an open unresolved question AFAIK.
I’m sure if Nature or Science would allow a pro-ID article to go through their peer-review with an even chance of being published, most ID advocates would jump at the opportunity.
Would such papers, if submitted, have rejection letters detailing the reasons for rejection? Have ID advocates already attempted to do what you say (publish in Nature or Science?) and if not, how do you know for certain they would be rejected out of hand? A positive attitude in this regard may pay dividends, whereas you can be certain if no ID advocate attempts to publish a paper in Nature or Science none will ever be published in Nature or Science As they say for the Lottery, "you've got to be in it, to win it".George L Farquhar
June 2, 2009
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In[5], Atom provides the appropriate answer as to 'what' is conserved. What is variable here, is the target and the amount of information to be outputted. Now one could argue, I suppose, that since both the target space and the output information are variable, then it is wrong to speak of conservation. But let's remember that when it comes to entropy---the very subject field from whence our understanding of 'energy' developed---requires a "closed system". Well, isn't that a hedge? Where does one 'find' a 'closed system', except for those that are artifically kept? So, if enquirers into the laws of entropy are required to construct a closed system, then there is at least some parallel to an enquirer 'constructing' a 'closed information system' when he/she defines a target space and then decides on the amount of information to be outputted. Here's another way of looking at conservation laws. Gravity is considered a conserved force, that is, it does not change with time. Yet, the gravitational potential at any point on the surface of the earth varies because of the differences in altitude from one area of the world to another. So when you talk about gravity as a conserved force, this simply means that the difference between initial position A, and final position B, is always the same, INDEPENDENT of the path selected for movement. Now, is the 'difference' between A and B always the same? No. Why? Because the gravitational force of the 'system' can change. IOW, if you lift the same object on earth and on the moon the same difference in altitude, you will get distinctly different values for the 'energy'='work' needed to do this. Analogously, once an informational system is defined, via target and output requirements, then, INDEPENDENT of the search method used, the 'same' minimal information is needed to arrive at the output. I believe this is sufficiently parallel here.PaV
June 2, 2009
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Atom @6
I’m sure if Nature or Science would allow a pro-ID article to go through their peer-review with an even chance of being published, most ID advocates would jump at the opportunity.
Atom, Whether you realize it or not, your insinuation that peer-reviewed journals like Science and Nature reject articles solely because of the views of their authors is grossly insulting. Those two journals in particular have the highest standards of academic integrity. Are you aware of any papers supportive of ID that have been rejected by peer-reviewed journals out of hand? If so, it would be instructive for the authors to make those papers available on the web, so that everyone can see the unfair bias you are suggesting exists. I have looked for such papers, personally, assuming that the authors would want to make their research known. I have thus far found none. JJJayM
June 2, 2009
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serendipity, Would you rather they be more specific and call it the "Law of Conservation of Minimum Information Cost"? They could do that, but it lacks the same ring. I'm just glad that the concept has a name and is now coming to light. AtomAtom
June 2, 2009
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serendipity: I suppose we are just going to have to disagree about the appropriateness of referring to this as conservation. I would say, however, that it is quite different from entropy. Concentrate a gas in a corner of a box, and it WILL diffuse at a given rate and entropy will correspondingly increase. On the other hand, go back in time and track the information that enables a search to be successful, and you know that you'll be finding at least a certain amount of information. But you don't know whether it will be more. Also, it's worth noting that the word "conservation" has been coming up in these discussions for some time now (see, for instance, the references to Peter Medawar [in the 1980s] and to Cullen Schaffer [in the 1990s) in our article "Life's Conservation Law," available on the publications page at www.evoinfo.org).William Dembski
June 2, 2009
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Atom writes:
The minimum information cost doesn’t change, so that would be the “quantit[y] in question [that] neither increase[s] or decrease[s].” At least that’s how I read it.
Hi Atom, The problem is that you could say the same thing about entropy. The starting entropy of a system is conserved, though the overall amount may (and usually does) increase. Yet we don't call the SLoT the "Law of Conservation of Entropy". Why? Because it would be highly misleading, since entropy is not conserved overall. Likewise, it is misleading for Dembski and Marks to call their principle the "Law of Conservation of Information" when information is not conserved overall.serendipity
June 2, 2009
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George L. Farquhar: I assume you're referring to my quote in the CHE: "I've just gotten kind of blase about submitting things to journals where you often wait two years to get things into print. And I find I can actually get the turnaround faster by writing a book and getting the ideas expressed there. My books sell well. I get a royalty. And the material gets read more." (The Chronicle of Higher Education, December 21, 2001) That was then and this is now. I made this comment at the time that my center for ID at Baylor had been shut down by the Baylor administration (see here). That ordeal, in which a "peer review committee" set up a star chamber to destroy my center and discredit my research, left me quite sour about the prospects of peer review facilitating my program of ID research. Since then I've published about ten books and have five more on the way (all of which are finished and in production). My books are accomplishing their end, and now I do see the need to get out some technical peer-reviewed publications. Moreover, I'm encouraged that the engineering community is open to my ideas and willing to publish them.William Dembski
June 2, 2009
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GLF, I think the only change has been a journal's willingness to publish something from a well-known ID advocate. Dr. D can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing he'll say the same thing. The reason we don't see more pro-ID articles published is not because ID scientists don't write papers or want them published. I'm sure if Nature or Science would allow a pro-ID article to go through their peer-review with an even chance of being published, most ID advocates would jump at the opportunity. AtomAtom
June 2, 2009
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serendipity wrote:
the quantities in question neither increase nor decrease.
while Dr. Dembski wrote:
Strictly speaking, what is conserved then is not the actual inputs of information to make a search successful but the minimum information cost required for success
The minimum information cost doesn't change, so that would be the "quantit[y] in question [that] neither increase[s] or decrease[s]." At least that's how I read it. AtomAtom
June 2, 2009
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Dr Dembski, Could I ask what has prompted your shift towards publishing your work in peer reviewed journals instead of your more usual avenue, books? It's true to say I think that you have already make clear your reasons for publishing your work in books, has your opinion now changed in that regard?George L Farquhar
June 2, 2009
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Dr. Dembski, The six existing conservation laws of physics are all strict conservation laws; the quantities in question neither increase nor decrease. Your proposed "Law of Conservation of Information" would be the first conservation law for which the quantity in question was not, in fact, conserved. Doesn't that strike you as a bit presumptuous? The Second Law of Thermodynamics stipulates that in an isolated system, entropy will either increase or at best, remain constant; your LCI states that information will either decrease or at best, remain constant. Apart from a change in sign, they are exactly parallel. The SLoT doesn't purport to be a conservation law. Why should the LCI?serendipity
June 2, 2009
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Dr. Dembski, In regards to trying to reconcile LCI with Genetic Entropy; What is the maximum limit for functional information bits, (Fits), generation that is now set for the random processes of the universe? Has it changed from the generously set 140 Fits limit set by Durston?bornagain77
June 2, 2009
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Dr. Dembski wrote:
Strictly speaking, what is conserved then is not the actual inputs of information to make a search successful but the minimum information cost required for success
This is the key point. Glad to see more UD posts about *science* and ID. Hopefully this thread won't devolve into a heated discussion over Theism... AtomAtom
June 2, 2009
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