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Darwin skeptic focuses on the repeated evolution of the camera eye

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The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms

Robert F. Shedinger, religion prof at Luther College in Iowa and author of The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms: Darwinian Biology’s Grand Narrative of Triumph and the Subversion of Religion, offered a series of reflective posts at ENST, analyzing a Darwinian biology text. His last one focused on the eye:

In my previous post analyzing Strickberger’s Evolution, a prominent textbook by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrimsson, I focused on the phenomenon of convergent evolution. One of the most amazing examples of convergence is the repeated evolution of the camera eye. I will begin this final post by considering Strickberger’s treatment of eye evolution along with comments on a few other problematic aspects of the textbook.

On eye evolution, Hall and Hallgrimsson write:

“As explained by the process of convergent evolution, the structural similarity of squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity. Such morphological convergences may have arisen independently in numerous other animal lineages subject to similar selective visual pressures. “

But how could a similar series of mutations of the sort necessary to produce similarly structured eyes in different lineages occur so many times independently if the mutations are randomly produced? Hall and Hallgrimsson are not bothered by this question, but in order to convince the reader that such a thing is possible, they appeal to the well-known work of Dan-Eric Nilsson and Susanne Pelger.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

But the textbook authors ignore the caveats, he tells us. He concludes,

In this post and the five that preceded it I have tried to highlight some of the more egregious ways Strickberger’s Evolution fundamentally distorts the science of evolutionary biology in service to its real intention to indoctrinate students into the Darwinian worldview. Clearly this textbook is not alone. Many of the errors and distortions outlined in this series of posts could be found in many other evolutionary biology textbooks.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

Here’s a question: How many people would study biology with interest if we took the Darwin out of it and said, learn what the natural world of life is like without all these theories of how it came to be that way? Who would still be interested?

See also: Darwin skeptic Robert Shedinger calls out Paul Davies

Comments
JVL "most random changes are deleterious enough are positive or neutral and are preserved that new features" blah blah blah ... Now focus: "There are over 6,000 genetic disorders, many of which are fatal or severely debilitating. A genetic disease is caused by a mutation in DNA and can be divided into 4 major groups: Single-gene mutation; Multiple genes mutations; Chromosomal changes and mitochondrial mutations." https://www.labroots.com 6000 !!! 6000 !!! 6000 !!! Now, you show me a list of neutral/ beneficial mutations.martin_r
August 28, 2020
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Truthfreedom: That is because you are philosophically ignorant. Sadly, today is very common. Less Netflix and more learning. Uh huh. Explain the basis of randomness philosophically.JVL
August 28, 2020
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to JVL @45 alright, so you believe that a blind unguided natural process can develop an eye-brain communication protocol for processing hi-def images and colors in RGB space. I have to ask: Do you understand what is a communication protocol or RGB color space? Does your wife (an archeologist) understand what is a communication protocol or RGB color space?martin_r
August 28, 2020
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ET: Why? There isn’t any evidence for it nor a way to test it. I disagree.JVL
August 28, 2020
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PaV: I say this: Apple’s OS 1.0 became Apple’s OS 2.0 by chance. I say it was unguided. Do you believe this? If you choose to tell me that you “don’t believe” the OS changed randomly, then my question to you would be, why? It's obvious it didn't happen by chance, non-living systems don't work that way. AND we know some of the people who worked on the modification (I don't know personally but there would be records). LIving systems that reproduce work differently and while most random changes are deleterious enough are positive or neutral and are preserved that new features, etc come about. Darwin realised that looking at human guiding breeding (pre-genome era) showed that there was enough positive variation that desired modifications can come about. Natural 'selection' is slower but, like human selection, it's not completely random. So variations that don't harm or give some survival advantage tend to get fixed in a population.JVL
August 28, 2020
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ET: "JVL’s wife is an archaeologist. ..." How else... Biologists, archeologists, paleontologists and other 'logists' (natural science graduates ) doing research of an engineering masterpiece. Moreover, these 'logists' dare to call it "a bad design". These 'logists' who never made anything. It is like in some mental hospital ... Seriously, what is wrong with this world ?martin_r
August 28, 2020
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Wow, Truthfreedom . . . what an absolutely brilliant idea for providing a Public Service to those who need instruction such as JVL! ;-) After looking through the basic definitions that you provided with regard to conditional and necessary truths, associated probabilities, and beliefs, it occurred to me that I might also join you in your mission of mercy. My first submission is about understanding Bayes' Theorem, which is important for determining likelihoods based on incomplete information as we often find ourselves in science. http://encyclopedia.kids.net.au/page/ba/Bayes%27_theorem Bayes' Theorem might, for example, be used in determining whether something was intelligently designed or the result of a natural event such as a water heater exploding. -QQuerius
August 27, 2020
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JVL
Gee, I would have thought probability and ‘randomness’ were part of mathematics.
That is because you are philosophically ignorant. Sadly, today is very common. Less Netflix and more learning. But there are these things, known as the Works of Mercy (that please God). And one of them consists in instructing the ignorant. So there we go.
Since this is so, before we can understand probability fully, we first need to understand truth. Truth is that which logic and probability aim at. Truth implies reality and both together imply knowledge. There are conditional truths—propositions which are so given contingent premises—and necessary truths—propositions which are so no matter what. Therefore, there will also be conditional and necessary probabilities. Belief is a decision, an act, and does not always imply truth, especially when we are uncertain. We can, however, have knowledge, which is justified true belief. That too comes in conditional and necessary forms.
Preface: The Philosophy of Probability and Statistics, An Introduction https://wmbriggs.com/post/12118/Truthfreedom
August 27, 2020
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Well, the story goes, all our computers are being bombarded with both cosmic and background radiation that can cause errors on a disk drive, called mutations. After millions and millions of revolutions of the disk, some of the zeros stored on the disk turn into ones and some of the ones stored on the disk turn into zeros. Most of these changes are not fatal errors but randomly drift into entirely new features and capabilities. Now, it's well known that life is far, far more complex than what has the appearance of software engineering in a computer program, so evolutionary software (ES) and spontaneous installation (SD) must certainly occur. Then, successful software programs cause humans (aka meat computers) to keep using them, which feeds the computer electrical energy. The second law of thermodynamics is not violated due to the production of heat and random messages on Twitter, Facebook, and Uncommon Descent that make no sense at all. Thus, we can be confident in the statements by Highly Qualified Experts with PhDs in Computer Science that there is no "Great Programmer in the sky" and that all computer software is generated by chance and necessity. To deny this proven fact makes you a Computer Science Denier and one of those fringe nuts that believe in Intelligent Design. -QQuerius
August 27, 2020
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Martin_r: Do you really believe, that a blind unguided natural process can develop an eye-brain communication protocol for processing hi-def images and colors in RGB space ? JVL:
Yes.
Why? There isn't any evidence for it nor a way to test it.ET
August 27, 2020
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JVL:
This is your typical ploy but I’m not dancing to your tune anymore.
You always say that when I call your bluff. I have looked. The evidence for quarrying tools doesn't exist. How do we “know” the humans around the time and area had the capabilities of designing and building Stonehenge? Stonehenge! Circular reasoning at its finest. But to JVL that is science!
Go look up the actual research.
I have. If Stonehenge didn't exist no one would think the ancients had the capability of building it. We "know" they are capable only because it exists. Fact. We see how genetic engineers ply their craft. Venter synthesized an entire genome. So obviously we have a plausible way for intelligent agencies to do what ID claims with respect to biology.
Which intelligent agents were around at . . . what time was it? When you think design was implemented?
The non-earth human kind of intelligent designers. And @ the beginning, obviously. But that is all moot as JVL clearly is lying and bluffing. The reason probability arguments exist is precisely because there isn’t any supporting evidence for unguided evolution, beyond genetic diseases and deformities. The reason there is the paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” would NOT be necessary if the evidence JVL said exists, actually existed.
You will never change. Unlike real scientists who adapt their ideas to new data.
And yet I have changed. I was once ignorant, like you. I was fooled by the lure of evolutionism and the want to prove my parents didn't know anything about it. Then I looked at the data. Now I am an IDist because there isn't any viable scientific alternative.ET
August 27, 2020
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JVL@ 10:
Show me a ‘guider’. Show me how the guiding is implemented. Point to specific cases of when guidance happened and what was done.
I say this: Apple's OS 1.0 became Apple's OS 2.0 by chance. I say it was unguided. Do you believe this? If you choose to tell me that you "don't believe" the OS changed randomly, then my question to you would be, why?PaV
August 27, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Since probability/ “randomness” are a part of epistemology and epistemology is a part of philosophy, then everything is fine. Gee, I would have thought probability and 'randomness' were part of mathematics. Anyway, if you think you have more knowledge than Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, please tell us how to design an experiment to test the “randomness” of mutations. I would start by looking at their PDF based on their observed occurrences. Then I would monitor some defined sites on some genome to see when mutations occurred. I would look at some simple genomes and do some complete genome mappings to see what changed from generation to generation. Anyway, just look up why scientists already think that mutations are random with regard to fitness. And then look at the reasons they think so.JVL
August 27, 2020
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Martin_r: Do you really believe, that a blind unguided natural process can develop an eye-brain communication protocol for processing hi-def images and colors in RGB space ? Yes.JVL
August 27, 2020
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ET: OK, JVL, bluffer- Please link to the research that shows the quarrying tools. Stonehenge isn’t like other stone circles. They are NOT models of Stonehenge YOU are the fool. This is your typical ploy but I'm not dancing to your tune anymore. If you really want to know then you can go look. If you don't really care then you can look ignorant. It's your call. How do we “know” the humans around the time and area had the capabilities of designing and building Stonehenge? Stonehenge! Circular reasoning at its finest. But to JVL that is science! Go look up the actual research. We see how genetic engineers ply their craft. Venter synthesized an entire genome. So obviously we have a plausible way for intelligent agencies to do what ID claims with respect to biology. Which intelligent agents were around at . . . what time was it? When you think design was implemented? But that is all moot as JVL clearly is lying and bluffing. The reason probability arguments exist is precisely because there isn’t any supporting evidence for unguided evolution, beyond genetic diseases and deformities. The reason there is the paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” would NOT be necessary if the evidence JVL said exists, actually existed. You will never change. Unlike real scientists who adapt their ideas to new data.JVL
August 27, 2020
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JVL
Yup. Did you actually read the whole article and notice that he is not hypothesising or supporting any kind of intelligent intervention.
Yes. I have read it. And no, he is not supporting an "intelligent intervention" (whatever that means). You are missing the forest for the trees. What he is asking is: are mutations really random? How can we know it?
"The very notion of ‘randomness’ is already loaded and ambiguous to begin with: although it is defined as the absence of discernible patterns, theoretically any pattern can be produced by a truly random process; the associated probability may be vanishingly small, but it isn’t zero. So the claim that a natural process is random not only amounts to little more than an acknowledgement of causal ignorance, it can also be construed so as to be unfalsifiable".
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/08/evolution-is-true-but-are-mutations.html?m=1
Anyway, he’s not a biologist.
No, he is not a biologist. He is a philosopher (and a very good one in my opinion). Since probability/ "randomness" are a part of epistemology and epistemology is a part of philosophy, then everything is fine. He is not overstepping his bounds (cough cough Krauss, Dawkins, Coyne, Hawkings...) Anyway, if you think you have more knowledge than Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, please tell us how to design an experiment to test the "randomness" of mutations. You could even write it on his blog. That would be interesting. https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/08/evolution-is-true-but-are-mutations.html?m=1Truthfreedom
August 27, 2020
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OK, You are correct and I am mistaken. Here's an interesting article on the subject of the builders: https://www.digitalmedievalist.com/opinionated-celtic-faqs/stonehenge/ -QQuerius
August 27, 2020
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JVL's wife is an archaeologist. They live in the UK.ET
August 27, 2020
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ET, While JVL insists on using bold tags rather than blockquotes is mildly annoying, you should at least be glad that you don't have to read everything in all caps. As to the trollish content you're replying to . . .
The ones demonstrably living their <sic> at the time?
Really Are there videotapes? Sign me up for a demonstration on who exactly the builders were!
Says who? Are you sure you’re up on all the research?
So here, you're supposed to spend hours summarizing the research in response to a response that took seconds to write and your lengthy response won't be read anyway.
We have found plausible ways they could have transported the stones using materials at hand and skills they had.
We? Either JVL is playing an active part of the archaeological research on Stonehenge construction or he has a tapeworm. Without further data on this point, we can only speculate. -QQuerius
August 27, 2020
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JVL, alright, nevermind. My last question: Do you really believe, that a blind unguided natural process can develop an eye-brain communication protocol for processing hi-def images and colors in RGB space ?martin_r
August 27, 2020
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OK, You are correct and I am mistaken.ET
August 27, 2020
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ET,
Your ignorance of science is not an argument. And it still remains that there isn’t any scientific alternative to ID.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. I think ignorance of science is a vital tool in the arsenal of anti-ID arguments. For example, that same ignorance argument could be used to debunk quarks on the basis that we haven't seen any. Or that the mathematical relationships found in physics aren't real because we haven't found a cosmic mathematician. Or that the "big bang" didn't happen because cosmologists cannot identify the source of the initial energy required. No, ignorance of science is very flexible and can be employed in a wide range of arguments even beyond those used against ID. ;-) -QQuerius
August 27, 2020
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OK, JVL, bluffer- Please link to the research that shows the quarrying tools. Stonehenge isn't like other stone circles. They are NOT models of Stonehenge YOU are the fool. How do we "know" the humans around the time and area had the capabilities of designing and building Stonehenge? Stonehenge! Circular reasoning at its finest. But to JVL that is science! We see how genetic engineers ply their craft. Venter synthesized an entire genome. So obviously we have a plausible way for intelligent agencies to do what ID claims with respect to biology. Then there are the genetic algorithms which demonstrate the power of evolution via telic processes. So we also have a plausible mechanism for telic evolution. But that is all moot as JVL clearly is lying and bluffing. The reason probability arguments exist is precisely because there isn't any supporting evidence for unguided evolution, beyond genetic diseases and deformities. The reason there is the paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" would NOT be necessary if the evidence JVL said exists, actually existed. All JVL can do is lie, bluff and deny.ET
August 27, 2020
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ET: We don’t know what humans, if any, designed and built Stonehenge. The ones demonstrably living their at the time? We have NOT found any tools for quarrying the stones. Says who? Are you sure you're up on all the research? We have NOT found any tools for transporting the stones. We have found plausible ways they could have transported the stones using materials at hand and skills they had. We have not found any models of the structure. Do you know how many standing stone circles there are in the British Isles? Do you know how long Stonehenge took to construct? Are you aware of the preliminary stages discovered by archaeologists? Do some work before you make yourself look foolish. And that means read more than one source. In fact, if you really want to know what we know read all the academic sources and work.JVL
August 27, 2020
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Martin_r: you see, this is exactly what i am talking about. You Darwinian clowns don’t understand how things work, because you never made anything, you only scratch the surface. You have no idea what I've made or what I've done. You just assume things because I disagree with you. What an enlightened and objective outlook. So, another question, how do you know, ‘how much’ to adjust the focal length, so the object is in focus ? I can do the physics if I want to. But you're more interested in pretending I'm stupid and ignorant of what is going on in the eye. Well, I'm not. And I still disagree with you. As do millions of other intelligent people. And a lot of them have actually looked at the biological evidence instead of just throwing their hands up and saying: no way this could have come about via unguided processes.JVL
August 27, 2020
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We don't know what humans, if any, designed and built Stonehenge. We have NOT found any tools for quarrying the stones. We have NOT found any tools for transporting the stones. We have not found any models of the structure. So, according to JVL, we cannot say that Stonehenge is an artifactET
August 27, 2020
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It is very telling that JVL cannot link to the alleged scientific theory of evolution. JVL can't say who the author was, when nor where it was published. JVL is ignorant of science. JVL can only deny the evidence. JVL can only lie and bluff like all evos.ET
August 27, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Do you understand the meaning of “no empirical basis”? Yup. Did you actually read the whole article and notice that he is not hypothesising or supporting any kind of intelligent intervention. Anyway, he's not a biologist. According to your worldview (atheism/ materialism): – we are “neuronal illusions” – the Universe “created” itself for “no reason” -our “haphazard brains” “created” logic/ mathematics” (the most precise tools known to mankind? ) -morals are “Illusory” -life is “meaningless” – “truth” “does not exist” – we are “heaps of atoms hallucinating reality” That's what you think I believe and agree with. Maybe you should learn how to be polite and ask first. Oh, I forgot, you don't have to because you think I'm delusional, not in my right mind. So you don't have to treat me like a human being at all. Got it. You probably would take away my right to vote if you could. Maybe even my right to breed.JVL
August 27, 2020
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ET: What theory? There isn’t any scientific theory of evolution to give up on. So you claim. But every textbook, every encyclopedia and lots and lots of other publications disagree with you. Too vague to be of any use. We're talking about human beings who lived at certain place in a certain time frame. Anyway, you're not using it; you're not an archaeologist or an anthropologist or a scientist of any kind. There aren’t any such grants Saves you making the call then! Your ignorance of science is not an argument. And it still remains that there isn’t any scientific alternative to ID Mountains and mountains of evidence aside.JVL
August 27, 2020
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JVL
What a weird world you live in.
Lol. According to your worldview (atheism/ materialism): - we are "neuronal illusions" - the Universe "created" itself for "no reason'' -our "haphazard brains" "created" logic/ mathematics" (the most precise tools known to mankind? ) -morals are "Illusory" -life is "meaningless" - "truth" "does not exist" - we are "heaps of atoms hallucinating reality" Etc. Oh the irony. 10 Reasons Why Atheists Are Delusional https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/11-reasons-why-atheists-are-delusional/Truthfreedom
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