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Darwin skeptic focuses on the repeated evolution of the camera eye

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The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms

Robert F. Shedinger, religion prof at Luther College in Iowa and author of The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms: Darwinian Biology’s Grand Narrative of Triumph and the Subversion of Religion, offered a series of reflective posts at ENST, analyzing a Darwinian biology text. His last one focused on the eye:

In my previous post analyzing Strickberger’s Evolution, a prominent textbook by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrimsson, I focused on the phenomenon of convergent evolution. One of the most amazing examples of convergence is the repeated evolution of the camera eye. I will begin this final post by considering Strickberger’s treatment of eye evolution along with comments on a few other problematic aspects of the textbook.

On eye evolution, Hall and Hallgrimsson write:

“As explained by the process of convergent evolution, the structural similarity of squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity. Such morphological convergences may have arisen independently in numerous other animal lineages subject to similar selective visual pressures. “

But how could a similar series of mutations of the sort necessary to produce similarly structured eyes in different lineages occur so many times independently if the mutations are randomly produced? Hall and Hallgrimsson are not bothered by this question, but in order to convince the reader that such a thing is possible, they appeal to the well-known work of Dan-Eric Nilsson and Susanne Pelger.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

But the textbook authors ignore the caveats, he tells us. He concludes,

In this post and the five that preceded it I have tried to highlight some of the more egregious ways Strickberger’s Evolution fundamentally distorts the science of evolutionary biology in service to its real intention to indoctrinate students into the Darwinian worldview. Clearly this textbook is not alone. Many of the errors and distortions outlined in this series of posts could be found in many other evolutionary biology textbooks.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

Here’s a question: How many people would study biology with interest if we took the Darwin out of it and said, learn what the natural world of life is like without all these theories of how it came to be that way? Who would still be interested?

See also: Darwin skeptic Robert Shedinger calls out Paul Davies

Comments
JVL@79:
Because computer code is not alive, it does not reproduce, there is no ‘space’ where variations of computer code are tested to see if they are more or less fit and then allowed to reproduce with variation.
But you're supposing "life" as already existing while the discussion is about how to solve immense improbabilities "pre-life." This leaves you only non-random chemical reactions and random concentrations, with no room for NS since "life" has not yet arisen.
Also, we know the Mac operating system was designed, implemented and modified by human beings and we can probably find out exactly who those people were. It’s entirely possible and plausible that we can do that.
But none of that was needed by you to reach the conclusion that OS 1.O didn't become OS 2.0 via random forces. Your immediate impulse was to assume "some" intelligent agent, though you don't know who they are. This is a natural conclusion we intelligent beings make. Let's admit this, or assume this.
ID proponents have no idea who their designer was, when design was implemented, how design was implemented, why design was implemented. In fact, we don’t even know if there was a designer.
As to OS 1.0 becoming OS 2.0, neither do you "know" who the "designer" was, when the design was implemented (yes, you know the release date of the software, but no more), nor how the design was implemented. (Did they run algorithms, was it a team, did they bring in and hire outside people with greater expertise.) So, your belief is that we don't even know if there was a designer, and, yet, there is no mechanism other than intelligence you can provide for how life emerged. When highly improbable events happen, we naturally "infer" intelligence to be at work. As to evidence for Design, let's turn the tables some: what did evolutionary biology predict about non-coding ("junk") DNA and what did ID thinking predict? ID thinkers said--I was one of them more than fifteen years ago right here at UD, that the coding DNA was no more than a "materials list" that architects provide while the "non-coding" DNA are the blueprints--directing how the materials are to be fashioned. Who won that battle of ideas? I think we all know. How could a 'correct' theory turn out to be so wrong while an 'incorrect' theory turned out to be quite right? Shouldn't this cause every evolutionary biologist some pause?PaV
August 29, 2020
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Not one scientist on the planet can come up with a viable scientific alternative to ID. And that is very telling.ET
August 29, 2020
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Computer programs don't require intervention. Does that mean nature did it? Why? There isn’t any evidence for it nor a way to test it. JVL:
I disagree.
OK, present it or admit that you are lying, again. It isn't in peer-review. It isn't in textbooks. So it is obvious that JVL is lying or just deluded.ET
August 29, 2020
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JVL ==It gets reproduced billions and billons of times with no conscious intervention.== And? How does that refute the ID claim that the first generation of such systems must have been designed? Are you suggesting that in order to classify comment 79 up the thread, I need to know exactly who JVL is. I can reasonably believe that JVL has a mind and is not a bot just by analysing JVL's responses in this thread. You are talking past the ID claims. ==Lots and lots of questions . .== I agree, but the problem is that your position is nowhere near even that. Saying 'evolution did it' without providing evidence to support it is nowhere near. The problem I have with claims like yours is that your position is heavily biased against ID even though you use ID even now as we speak. And you know that. You are happy to embrace evolution as an overarching paradigm even though it does not provide any evidence for your position. At the same time, you are being hyper-skeptical towards ID even though there is ample evidence of design. To provide a serious answer to ID claims, you or anyone else from you 'camp' needs to be able to do either of these two: 1. Logically exclude the possibility of the existence of a mind that could predate humans. 2. Experimentally demonstrate that functional complexity can accumulate by evolutionary means to the orders of magnitude comparable with that already present in the biosphere. This experiment can involve human intervention only at the stage of choosing the initial conditions. You can choose temperature, pressure, concentration of chemicals, chirality, luminosity, etc. at time = 0. Any involvement of the experimenter past the point of t=0, such as in the form of controlling the dynamics of the abiogenetic synthesis of life, must be excluded. == Textbooks == I am not aware of any textbook that would carefully address the problems of abiogenetic synthesis. Everyone seems to be happy with just-so story telling. I am happy to be educated and retract this claim if there is such a textbook out there, but to my knowledge no one has solved the matter/sign problem that lies at the centre of the origin of life. It seems to me you are underestimating the challenge In front of you... All you have done in your responses that I have seen is appeal to authority. This is not good enough, to be honest. The real trouble is, you know that and you are alright with it.EugeneS
August 29, 2020
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JVL
Whatever. Statistics was developed to draw conclusions based on collections of data.
Then I am right. A subject (human) uses a tool (mathematics) to gain knowledge of his surroundings (he wants to know how does the Universe work).Truthfreedom
August 29, 2020
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JVL You have not answered my question: to gain knowledge of the world (e.g. undestanding/ using mathematics) we do need a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus. Yes/ No.Truthfreedom
August 29, 2020
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JVL
I’m not forcing my views on anyone, I’m offering my opinion just like you do. Oh, by the way, PaV doesn’t know how life on earth originated either.
You are saying this: life has a 'natural' (spontaneous?) origin, although I do not have a clue about how it originated. But it had to be that way because it fits my pre-conceived worldview (materialism/no God). PaV is telling you that not-life can not create life (if inert matter can 'create life', anything goes). It's not different from 'magic'. It is a meta-physical issue.Truthfreedom
August 29, 2020
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EugeneS: A strange argument indeed. Are you saying that genetic code in the cell is alive? It gets reproduced billions and billons of times with no conscious intervention. Sometimes mistakes are made in the copying, sometimes the DNA string getting copied was altered by ionising radiation. Secondly, have you heard about malicious self-replicating code? Yes if you mean computer trojans and viruses. Again, we know humans created those and sometimes we can even figure out who. How about a computer environment? Testing could be how well your virus is adapted to OS means of virus detection. My point is, artificial life is a good enough approximation of life which can help test Darwinian claims. In some ways. It's still not a great model though. When an archeologist dicovers an ancient vase, does he need to know the name and address of the potmaker who made it to establish that the vase was actually made? I never asked for that much specificity. I pointed out that with some 'artefacts' like macOS you can be that specific. With something that is clearly a container we probably already know that there were humans around that area at the approximate time it was made, we've probably found other examples of their work, we've probably found places they lived, we may have some idea of what they ate, etc. There is no great mystery, no one is asking: what group of beings brought forth the individual that made this vase. Whereas ID hasn't even a clue what kind of being their hypothesised designer was, where they came from, what they ate, when they lived, what tools they used, nothing. As to the properties of the designer of life, the designer must have been intelligent enough to devise and create a semiotically closed non-homogeneous self-replicating autonomous system we call the cell. When did this happen? How was it done? Can you show there were beings with those kind of abilities around at the time? Lots and lots of questions . . Why do you have to know that in order to classify X as having been designed? It helps support your design inference which most scientists on the planet do not find convincing. I'm suggesting that if you started finding more supporting evidence you'd get more sympathetic responses. Yes, I did screw up and say "IT" when I meant "ID". My bad. I don’t think you will ever do that. Because there is absolutely no evidence to back your claims that a program can spontaneously arise and evolutionarily improve itself, and you happily live with that. And yet, we know that it is only a mind that can create a program — symbolic boundary conditions on the motion of matter in a system, — on the gamut of all observable space around us. Look, if there was no designer then it's all down to unguided processes. We haven't got any hard physical evidence that there were any beings around at whatever time you think it happened that did whatever you think they did (most ID proponents are very reluctant to commit to any stance on those issues; why is that?). Additionally a vast majority of people who study and research such things think there is plenty of evidence to establish that no guidance is necessary let alone discovered. You disagree, that's fine. I suggest to you that instead of continually making the same arguments over and over and over again which aren't getting you the mainstream acceptance you think you should have that you should look for more supporting evidence. I'd start with at least some work on when design was implemented but that's up to you. If you never find any more supporting evidence you're never going to make it into the textbooks.JVL
August 29, 2020
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JVL #79
Because computer code is not alive, it does not reproduce
A strange argument indeed. Are you saying that genetic code in the cell is alive? Secondly, have you heard about malicious self-replicating code?
there is no ‘space’ where variations of computer code are tested
How about a computer environment? Testing could be how well your virus is adapted to OS means of virus detection. My point is, artificial life is a good enough approximation of life which can help test Darwinian claims.
ID proponents have no idea who their designer was
When an archeologist dicovers an ancient vase, does he need to know the name and address of the potmaker who made it to establish that the vase was actually made? As to the properties of the designer of life, the designer must have been intelligent enough to devise and create a semiotically closed non-homogeneous self-replicating autonomous system we call the cell.
why design was implemented.
Why do you have to know that in order to classify X as having been designed?
That’s why I think IT proponents have not done enough to support their case. They haven’t done anything except hypothesise that some physical structures were designed. If and when they come up with more compelling evidence I will reconsider my opinion.
I don't think you will ever do that. Because there is absolutely no evidence to back your claims that a program can spontaneously arise and evolutionarily improve itself, and you happily live with that. And yet, we know that it is only a mind that can create a program -- symbolic boundary conditions on the motion of matter in a system, -- on the gamut of all observable space around us.EugeneS
August 29, 2020
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PaV: So, your saying that though chemical reactions are not random, nevertheless, concentrations of the reagents can be random. So, your position is that concentrations of reagents, since they can vary, can lead to life. I didn't say concentrations were random. Nor did I say 'concentrations' varying can lead to life. You are determined to interpret what I am saying to suit your views of what I think. Isn’t this how we infer the work of intelligence? It seemed natural to you. I know it’s natural to me. So why is this kind of ‘move’ wrong when employed by those proposing ID thinking? Because computer code is not alive, it does not reproduce, there is no 'space' where variations of computer code are tested to see if they are more or less fit and then allowed to reproduce with variation. Also, we know the Mac operating system was designed, implemented and modified by human beings and we can probably find out exactly who those people were. It's entirely possible and plausible that we can do that. ID proponents have no idea who their designer was, when design was implemented, how design was implemented, why design was implemented. In fact, we don't even know if there was a designer. That's why I think IT proponents have not done enough to support their case. They haven't done anything except hypothesise that some physical structures were designed. If and when they come up with more compelling evidence I will reconsider my opinion.JVL
August 29, 2020
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Truthfreedom: So you do not have a clue how life originated but dare to tell PaV he is an ‘anomaly hunter’ and you force your views on him (“I am right”) although it has been mentioned that you do not have a clue. I'm not forcing my views on anyone, I'm offering my opinion just like you do. Oh, by the way, PaV doesn't know how life on earth originated either. That steak-robot wants to know things and dares to investigate his surroundings. Whatever. Statistics was developed to draw conclusions based on collections of data. Randomnes is in the eye of the beholder. Not in mathematics. “Random” means that the agent (human) has not complete knowledge of the process. (Relation cause-effect). Not in mathematics.JVL
August 29, 2020
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JVL@70:
A chemical reaction may be non-random but when it happens based on the dispersal of the necessary reagents is another matter. The number and type of reagents available varied considerably in the early ages of the Earth.
So, your saying that though chemical reactions are not random, nevertheless, concentrations of the reagents can be random. So, your position is that concentrations of reagents, since they can vary, can lead to life. Is this a plausible explanation for the complexity of life modern science now reveals? It's interesting that when I asked you about OS 1.0 becoming OS 2.0, you inferred some person was involved. In fact, you suspected--I think rightly, that a group of persons were involved. And you mentioned that you didn't know any of these persons first-hand: that is, you have no idea who these persons might be or what their names might be. So, it seems to me that you consider such a change in "code" to be prima facie evidence that an intelligent agent is involved, even though you don't know this person's name, have likely never met him, and, even though you don't have any direct evidence to present that what you've proposed is, in fact, true. Isn't this how we infer the work of intelligence? It seemed natural to you. I know it's natural to me. So why is this kind of 'move' wrong when employed by those proposing ID thinking? If this 'move' is acceptable to you, then the only other complaint opponents of ID raise, and which might be yours, is that we know the mechanisms involved by people effecting such intelligent actions: that is, how the intelligence is infused into a particular object. Yet, the case in point, that of the change in code from OS 1.0 to OS 2.0, presents its own set of problems in this regard. Let's notice that code for OS 1.0 or OS 2.0 exists electronically, and not in the real world we experience. You can't take a printout of the code and force it into a CPU. It has to be read in 'electronically.' Without proper signaling, signaling that gets translated into language humans can understand, no one would even 'know' that the new code has superseded the old code. That is, we don't "see" the electrons held in place, or moved around, or emitting radiation, or doing whatever electrons are prone to do. All of what happens is essentially 'divorced' from the world we live in. We live in a classical world. Electrons, and an electronic code, live in a quantum world. Bottom line, it appears that though you don't know who provided the changes--intelligent changes, to the OS code, and though you don't know how these changes were made to this 'code' which is basically invisible to our human eyes, you didn't hesitate in the least to infer that an intelligent agent(s) was(were) involved in this change. ID says that though we don't know who provided the changes to the genetic code in organisms, differentiating one taxonomic form from another; and, though we can't "see" (directly) how these changes can come about, nevertheless, it is entirely reasonable and rational to reach the conclusion that the changes made to the genetic code--at higher taxonomic levels, can only be explained by invoking an "intelligent" Designer.
NS didn’t operate before life existed. You’re just flaying around trying to find some point that your objections can hang upon. You’re anomaly hunting.
No. I'm just pointing out the obvious.PaV
August 28, 2020
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70 JVL
A chemical reatcion may be non-random but when it happens ...
Randomnes is in the eye of the beholder. "Random" means that the agent (human) has not complete knowledge of the process. (Relation cause-effect).Truthfreedom
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Martin_r
Moreover, these ‘logists’ dare to call it “a bad design”. These ‘logists’ who never made anything. It is like in some mental hospital …
Which makes no-sense (for atheists), because there is no standard of perfection against which measure anything.
Seriously, what is wrong with this world ?
Cultural Marxism. Truthfreedom
August 28, 2020
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65 JVL
It depends on what you’re trying to do with them. Different modes and types of statistical analysis can help answer certain kinds of questions.
How interesting. To answer questions, you do NEED a "subject" (let's call him meat-robot errr... Human) with a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus. That steak-robot wants to know things and dares to investigate his surroundings. Do we agree?Truthfreedom
August 28, 2020
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JVL, So you do not have a clue how life originated but dare to tell PaV he is an 'anomaly hunter' and you force your views on him ("I am right") although it has been mentioned that you do not have a clue.Truthfreedom
August 28, 2020
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Querius, Chronos and Gea. Darwinists are pagans. (Also, they worship Darwin (The Prophet).Truthfreedom
August 28, 2020
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Mother Nature and Father Time produced a child called Unknown Chemical Processes. It's so scientific . . . . science fantasy that is, calling on naturalistic miracles that "musta" occurred. -QQuerius
August 28, 2020
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PaV: I suppose you mean that chemical reactions are deterministic: they always happen in certain ways. Depending on conditions of course; some reactions are facilitated by high temperatures, some by salinity, etc. But evolution is supposed to be RM+NS, And some other things. so, if chemical reactions are not random, then, “pre-life” there was no randomness in life-less matter. But, if so, how then could non-random, determined chemical reactions give rise to (evolve into) life itself? And even if nature was random, how could NS operate without life already existing? You seem to have an extremely simplistic view of how things work geared towards proving your predetermined view. A chemical reatcion may be non-random but when it happens based on the dispersal of the necessary reagents is another matter. The number and type of reagents available varied considerably in the early ages of the Earth. NS didn't operate before life existed. You're just flaying around trying to find some point that your objections can hang upon. You're anomaly hunting.JVL
August 28, 2020
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Apparently not everyone here has seen a molecular modeler in operation--the random physical collisions of certain molecules with other ones. It's amazing! Heat up a solution sufficiently and you can also watch molecules break apart. Actually, it occurs to me that we should be thanking the skeptics here for their catalyzing effect on creating informative discussion by everyone else. Much appreciated! :-) -QQuerius
August 28, 2020
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JVL@66:
I don’t know. But I wouldn’t say that chemical reactions are ‘chance’.
I suppose you mean that chemical reactions are deterministic: they always happen in certain ways. But evolution is supposed to be RM+NS, so, if chemical reactions are not random, then, "pre-life" there was no randomness in life-less matter. But, if so, how then could non-random, determined chemical reactions give rise to (evolve into) life itself? And even if nature was random, how could NS operate without life already existing?PaV
August 28, 2020
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66 JVL
But I wouldn’t say that chemical reactions are ‘chance’.
What are they then?Truthfreedom
August 28, 2020
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PaV: Well, did “life” always exist? Because if life didn’t always exist, then how did life come about if everything “pre-life” don’t operate by “chance”? I don't know. But I wouldn't say that chemical reactions are 'chance'.JVL
August 28, 2020
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Truthfreedom: What is the point of “statistics”? It depends on what you're trying to do with them. Different modes and types of statistical analysis can help answer certain kinds of questions.JVL
August 28, 2020
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JVL@54:
It’s obvious it didn’t happen by chance, non-living systems don’t work that way.
Well, did "life" always exist? Because if life didn't always exist, then how did life come about if everything "pre-life" don't operate by "chance"?PaV
August 28, 2020
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Focus Review 23 July 2009 The life and miracles of kinetochores Stefano Santaguida Andrea Musacchio EMBO J (2009)28:2511-2531 https://doi.org/10.1038/emboj.2009.173 Why did the authors dare to use such a PI* word in the title of their scientific research paper? I don’t know, but perhaps here’s a hint:
Kinetochores are large protein assemblies built on chromosomal loci named centromeres. The main functions of kinetochores can be grouped under four modules. The first module, in the inner kinetochore, contributes a sturdy interface with centromeric chromatin. The second module, the outer kinetochore, contributes a microtubule?binding interface. The third module, the spindle assembly checkpoint, is a feedback control mechanism that monitors the state of kinetochore–microtubule attachment to control the progression of the cell cycle. The fourth module discerns correct from improper attachments, preventing the stabilization of the latter and allowing the selective stabilization of the former.
(*) Politically Incorrect Here’s a list of some of the papers that cite the 2009 Italian paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722247/citedby/jawa
August 28, 2020
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@60: See the extremely simplified description of the octopus embryonic development. Piece of cake, isn’t it? Evo-Devo folks can barely describe it. No clue how to make something like that. Not even remotely. What are we discussing here?jawa
August 28, 2020
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JVL
Uh huh. Explain the basis of randomness philosophically.
What is the point of "statistics"?Truthfreedom
August 28, 2020
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A practical staging atlas to study embryonic development of Octopus vulgaris under controlled laboratory conditions
Octopus vulgaris has been an iconic cephalopod species for neurobiology research as well as for cephalopod aquaculture. It is one of the most intelligent and well-studied invertebrates, possessing both long- and short-term memory and the striking ability to perform complex cognitive tasks. Nevertheless, how the common octopus developed these uncommon features remains enigmatic.
The embryonic development of cephalopods can roughly be separated in three periods. The first one includes maturation and fertilization of the oocyte, discoidal meroblastic cleavage to form the blastodisc and division to complete the blastoderm. The gastrulation or second period comprises the formation of the germinal layers with establishment of endoderm and extra-embryonic yolk epithelium and the start of epiboly followed by concentrations of mesoderm. The organogenesis or third period begins with an elevation of blastodisc folds that prelude the appearance of the first organ primordia that will give rise to the typical dibranchiate topology and then, linear growth will eventually form a fully developed hatchling [2].
https://bmcdevbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12861-020-00212-6 E Pluribus Octo – Building Consensus on Standards of Care and Experimentation in Cephalopod Research; a Historical Outlook https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2020.00645/fulljawa
August 28, 2020
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Martin_r @3: You’re very welcome! You’re doing very well presenting solid evidences to back your arguments. Keep it that way.jawa
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