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Darwin skeptic focuses on the repeated evolution of the camera eye

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The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms

Robert F. Shedinger, religion prof at Luther College in Iowa and author of The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms: Darwinian Biology’s Grand Narrative of Triumph and the Subversion of Religion, offered a series of reflective posts at ENST, analyzing a Darwinian biology text. His last one focused on the eye:

In my previous post analyzing Strickberger’s Evolution, a prominent textbook by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrimsson, I focused on the phenomenon of convergent evolution. One of the most amazing examples of convergence is the repeated evolution of the camera eye. I will begin this final post by considering Strickberger’s treatment of eye evolution along with comments on a few other problematic aspects of the textbook.

On eye evolution, Hall and Hallgrimsson write:

“As explained by the process of convergent evolution, the structural similarity of squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity. Such morphological convergences may have arisen independently in numerous other animal lineages subject to similar selective visual pressures. “

But how could a similar series of mutations of the sort necessary to produce similarly structured eyes in different lineages occur so many times independently if the mutations are randomly produced? Hall and Hallgrimsson are not bothered by this question, but in order to convince the reader that such a thing is possible, they appeal to the well-known work of Dan-Eric Nilsson and Susanne Pelger.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

But the textbook authors ignore the caveats, he tells us. He concludes,

In this post and the five that preceded it I have tried to highlight some of the more egregious ways Strickberger’s Evolution fundamentally distorts the science of evolutionary biology in service to its real intention to indoctrinate students into the Darwinian worldview. Clearly this textbook is not alone. Many of the errors and distortions outlined in this series of posts could be found in many other evolutionary biology textbooks.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

Here’s a question: How many people would study biology with interest if we took the Darwin out of it and said, learn what the natural world of life is like without all these theories of how it came to be that way? Who would still be interested?

See also: Darwin skeptic Robert Shedinger calls out Paul Davies

Comments
JVL @25 "...inanimate camera’s autofocus mechanism which adjusts the focal length..." you see, this is exactly what i am talking about. You Darwinian clowns don't understand how things work, because you never made anything, you only scratch the surface. So, another question, how do you know, 'how much' to adjust the focal length, so the object is in focus ?martin_r
August 27, 2020
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JVL Your bolding machine has gotten stuck (again):
So the assumption that genetic mutations are random has, strictly speaking, no empirical basis. Its motivation is merely subjective: many cannot fathom any plausible mechanism that could impart a pattern on the mutations themselves. Compelling as this may sound, lack of imagination and a subjective sense of plausibility aren’t valid reasons to pronounce scientific facts.
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/08/evolution-is-true-but-are-mutations.html?m=1 Do you understand the meaning of "no empirical basis"?Truthfreedom
August 27, 2020
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JVL:
Strange that Biological science hasn’t given up on unguided evolutionary theory then.
What theory? There isn't any scientific theory of evolution to give up on.
For many prehistoric artefacts we know a certain class of designers were around at the time.
Too vague to be of any use.
Maybe you should write to the National Academy of Science and tell them to pull all the grants dealing with unguided evolution.
There aren't any such grants
Found a designer yet? Found their tools? Their energy sources? Any solid physical evidence aside from the objects you claim were designed (when and how by the way)?
Your ignorance of science is not an argument. And it still remains that there isn't any scientific alternative to IDET
August 27, 2020
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Martin_r: JVL, i put you a question, how do you image a camera-autofocus works ? Oh gosh, is Martin_r upset because I didn't answer his question? Poor baby. What's your point, an inanimate camera's autofocus mechanism which adjusts the focal length of the compound lens if its a mechanical focus isn't the same thing as a living eye. Nor did it 'arise' in the same way. Last year an article about octopus was published, signed by 33 MAINSTREAM scientists. They claim, that octopus genome landed on Earth fully evolved in a form of frozen eggs. I heard, pretty funny. Oh well, there are a lot of odd people in this world. Of course, other scientists found this article ‘controversial’, but, tell me JVL, what leads 33 mainstream scientists to publish something like that ? and, why they chose octopus, why not some other species ? Who knows? Who cares? If they really have something then let them do some more work and find some more evidence. A really extraordinary claim like that, one that runs counter to a lot of well established work, requires extraordinary evidence. Of course, according to evolutionary theory, also trichromatic vision should have evolved multiple times repeatedly. (when i am not wrong, first in fishes, then it got lost in primates, and then re-evolved in other primates.) Did you read the evidence in support of those assertions or just look at them and decide they were farcical? In other words: did you actually look at the data and the analysis of the data before making up your mind? To have this system work, your Darwinian blind unguided natural process, had to develop a communication protocol between these 2 organs (eye, brain), so all the visual data incoming from eye are interpreted correctly, including RGB color space. Yes, I am aware of that. Your continual assumption that because I don't agree with you means that either I haven't looked at the conclusions or the work supporting the conclusion OR I am an idiot is pretty insulting you know. A lot of people disagree with you. I guess you think they're all morons or blind evo-faith heads. What a weird world you live in.JVL
August 27, 2020
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JVL, one more thing, because i am not sure you Darwinian clowns realize that (you Darwinian clowns do not seem to realize lots of things) In regards to human visual system (the system includes - a camera eye, a transmission canal - the optical nerve - and an image processor (the brain), to have this system work, your Darwinian blind unguided natural process, had to develop a communication protocol between these 2 organs (eye, brain), so all the visual data incoming from eye are interpreted correctly, including RGB color space. Like a said, you Darwinian believe in miracles.martin_r
August 27, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Show me a single instance where “stuff” (matter) has been created ex-nihilo. Is that what we were talking about? I don't think so.JVL
August 27, 2020
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ET: Biological research does not depend on unguided evolution. The paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” definitely says the alleged evolution of trichromatic vision is by far out of the reach of blind and mindless processes. Its says it would take over 100 million years for TWO mutations and that is by far greater than 7 million. Strange that Biological science hasn't given up on unguided evolutionary theory then. Didn't the paper address waiting for a prespecified pair of mutations? And why don’t YOU, JVL, formulate hypotheses with respect to blind and mindless processes? Don’t tell others to do what you and yours have FAILED to do. I think others have so I feel no need to recreate the wheel so to speak. The Hitchen;s gambit applies to unguided evolution” That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” Especially if you deny the evidence! And I didn’t misrepresent any papers. You are a liar. You must have or thousands upon thousands of research grants and books would be thrown on the trash heap. We don’t have that for many artifacts. That doesn’t stop them from being artifacts. We definitely don’t have to know the who or how in order to determine design exists. For many prehistoric artefacts we know a certain class of designers were around at the time. We know what they ate, where they lived, what kind of tools they had. This is why whenever someone claims to have pushed back the arrival of humans in the Western Hemisphere, for example, it's met with widespread skepticism and most anthropologists wait and see if more data arises. That said, “Not By Chance” came out in 1997. It was in response to the Dawkins’ trope “the Blind Watchmaker”. To the point- any event that required gene duplication followed by functioning altering mutations, would be telic. That is because such a thing is well beyond the scope of blind and mindless processes, per Durrett and Schmidt. Maybe you should write to the National Academy of Science and tell them to pull all the grants dealing with unguided evolution. Genetic algorithms utilize telic processes to solve the problems they were designed to solve. So at least we have that. JVL’s position just has liars and bluffers. Found a designer yet? Found their tools? Their energy sources? Any solid physical evidence aside from the objects you claim were designed (when and how by the way)?JVL
August 27, 2020
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ET @9 mentioned trichromatic vision. Of course, according to evolutionary theory, also trichromatic vision should have evolved multiple times repeatedly. (when i am not wrong, first in fishes, then it got lost in primates, and then re-evolved in other primates.)martin_r
August 27, 2020
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JVL, speaking about squids and millions of scientists. Last year an article about octopus was published, signed by 33 MAINSTREAM scientists. They claim, that octopus genome landed on Earth fully evolved in a form of frozen eggs. Of course, other scientists found this article 'controversial', but, tell me JVL, what leads 33 mainstream scientists to publish something like that ? and, why they chose octopus, why not some other species ? the article is here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610718300798?via%3Dihubmartin_r
August 27, 2020
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JVL, i put you a question, how do you image a camera-autofocus works ?martin_r
August 27, 2020
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JVL "If you haven’t seen the evidence then maybe you should look harder instead of accusing everyone you disagree with of being a liar or lunatic or both." i told you, i bet i know more about your 'evidence' and the whole theory than you, despite i don't have a formal education in biology. Lunatic ... insane ... these are exactly the right words for someone who in 21st century believe that a 8K camcorder self-designed with no help from an engineer. Indeed, your 'millions of biologists around the world' are lunatic. I am not happy to say it, but it seems they all need to see a doctor, including you. Even you admit that some 'end results look fantastic'. You see ? :)))) (you said FANTASTIC, i say ABSURD ABSURD ABSURD) I don't have to be a catolic fundamentalist to see that something is wrong with your theory, five year old child can see it ... (perhaps it worked in 19st century) In regards to your 'evidence', whatever evidence they have, they misinterpret it or even lie about it. So simple it is. We have seen it so many times in the past and we will see it in the future. PS: JVL, keep it in your Darwinian mind, 8K camcorders DO NOT self-design whatever a biologist says.martin_r
August 27, 2020
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Regarding "randomness":
So the assumption that genetic mutations are random has, strictly speaking, no empirical basis. Its motivation is merely subjective: many cannot fathom any plausible mechanism that could impart a pattern on the mutations themselves. Compelling as this may sound, lack of imagination and a subjective sense of plausibility aren’t valid reasons to pronounce scientific facts.
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2019/08/evolution-is-true-but-are-mutations.html?m=1Truthfreedom
August 27, 2020
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JVL
Show me a ‘guider’.
Show me a single instance where "stuff" (matter) has been created ex-nihilo.Truthfreedom
August 27, 2020
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JVL continues to prove that he does NOT understand science:
Show me a ‘guider’. Show me how the guiding is implemented. Point to specific cases of when guidance happened and what was done.
We don't have that for many artifacts. That doesn't stop them from being artifacts. We definitely don't have to know the who or how in order to determine design exists. That said, "Not By Chance" came out in 1997. It was in response to the Dawkins' trope "the Blind Watchmaker". To the point- any event that required gene duplication followed by functioning altering mutations, would be telic. That is because such a thing is well beyond the scope of blind and mindless processes, per Durrett and Schmidt. Genetic algorithms utilize telic processes to solve the problems they were designed to solve. So at least we have that. JVL's position just has liars and bluffers.ET
August 27, 2020
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JVL proves that he is clueless. He can only cherry-pick a quote and he doesn't even understand that the quote is wrong. Dr. Behe has responded to them and it wasn't good for Durrett and Schmidt.ET
August 27, 2020
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LoL! @ JVL- Biological research does not depend on unguided evolution. The paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" definitely says the alleged evolution of trichromatic vision is by far out of the reach of blind and mindless processes. Its says it would take over 100 million years for TWO mutations and that is by far greater than 7 million. And why don't YOU, JVL, formulate hypotheses with respect to blind and mindless processes? Don't tell others to do what you and yours have FAILED to do. That is being a hypocrite. Your side has nothing but liars and bluffing cowards. I am sure that hurts. The Hitchen;s gambit applies to unguided evolution" That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." And I didn't misrepresent any papers. You are a liar.ET
August 27, 2020
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I just love this quote from the paper in question: Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution https://www.genetics.org/content/180/3/1501
In addition, we use these results to expose flaws in some of Michael Behe's arguments concerning mathematical limits to Darwinian evolution.
And this is the paper that is supposed to shoot a hole in unguided evolution?JVL
August 27, 2020
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ET: That said, the peer-reviewed paper “Waiting for TWO Mutations” says it is impossible for unguided evolution to do what JVL claims. Clearly it doesn't actually say that since it's a well known paper and it hasn't stopped biological research. ID’s claim is the diversity is due to TELIC processes. Too bad you can't show us the being responsible or its methods or its techniques. But hey, it's a start: make a hypothesis and then try and support it. You are trying to support it aren't you? Aside from making negative arguments based on mainstream papers you misinterpret.JVL
August 27, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Ummm. False. The bolded word is where the problem really lies: you can not prove scientifically that the process is “unguided”. Show me a 'guider'. Show me how the guiding is implemented. Point to specific cases of when guidance happened and what was done. No guider means no guidance. So, can you provide a guider and its methods and techniques? We'll not worry about its motivations.JVL
August 27, 2020
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JVL:
Over 150 years hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of working biologists have looked at the actually data and come away agreeing that life on Earth diversified and continues to diversify via a natural, unguided process of common descent with variation.
'And yet not one of them knows how to test the concept. That means it is outside of science. Probability arguments exist exactly because of the untestable nature of the claim. That said, the peer-reviewed paper "Waiting for TWO Mutations" says it is impossible for unguided evolution to do what JVL claims. The alleged evolution of trichromatic vision is well beyond the reach of blind and mindless processes. ID's claim is the diversity is due to TELIC processes. And thanks to genetic algorithms we know the power of evolution by means of telic processes. With telic processes Dawkins' concept of cumulative selection actually makes sense.ET
August 27, 2020
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JVL
... that life on Earth diversified and continues to diversify via a natural, unguided process of common descent with variation.
Ummm. False. The bolded word is where the problem really lies: you can not prove scientifically that the process is "unguided". That is a philosophical statement, not a scientific one.Truthfreedom
August 27, 2020
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Martin_r: Of course, most lay Darwinists are not aware of this claim. Yes, Seversky or JVL, this is what Darwinian evolutionary theory claims. I am well aware of the findings which have been discussed many times over the last decade or two. Aside from your: this stuff is all very complicated, how could it have happened via natural processes? Do you have another argument? Over 150 years hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of working biologists have looked at the actually data and come away agreeing that life on Earth diversified and continues to diversify via a natural, unguided process of common descent with variation. I understand that from an engineering perspective some of the end results seems fantastical but look at the supporting evidence. That can take a lot of work (and don't just ask other people to do the work for you, did anyone get to be an engineer by asking for everything to be shown to them?) but you will find there is a lot of support for the statements you like to deride as foolish. If you haven't seen the evidence then maybe you should look harder instead of accusing everyone you disagree with of being a liar or lunatic or both.JVL
August 27, 2020
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from the article "squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity" SIMILAR SELECTIVE PRESSURE ????? SIMILAR SELECTIVE PRESSURE ????? SIMILAR SELECTIVE PRESSURE ????? I might be wrong, but it occurs to me, that these two species (octopus, human) live in a totally different environment, e.g. the bending of light is totally different. Darwinians, you dive ?martin_r
August 27, 2020
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JVL, SEVERSKY and the other Darwinian clowns. I was wondering, how do you imagine, how a camera-autofocus works ?martin_r
August 27, 2020
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if it only would be the repeated evolution of camera eye, the same happened with other types of eyes as well,... for example: (please keep in mind, i am quoting a mainstream researcher !!! The following is a quote from a mainstream paper !!!) "Repeated evolution of compound eyes: one of two seemingly very unlikely evolutionary histories must be true" "These results illustrate exactly why arthropod compound eye evolution has remained controversial, because one of two seemingly very unlikely evolutionary histories must be true. Either compound eyes with detailed similarities evolved multiple times in different arthropod groups or compound eyes have been lost in a seemingly inordinate number of arthropod lineages" https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/99/3/1426.full.pdfmartin_r
August 27, 2020
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Jawa, thank you for promoting my blog on repeated evolution. Ironically, i have not posted yet on repeated evolution of camera eye, but i will. Indeed, evolutionary biologists are death-serious about the claim, that auto-focusing, high-def camera eye evolved multiple times independently in various evolutionary non-related lineages. E.g. octopuses and humans. Of course, most lay Darwinists are not aware of this claim. Yes, Seversky or JVL, this is what Darwinian evolutionary theory claims. You have to believe, that this miracle happened multiple times (of course, there are many other miracles, e.g. repeated evolution of placenta 100x, or a repeated evolution of C4 photosythesis 60x !!!! Your Darwinian faith has to be really strong to believe in all these miracles) In 21st century, you Darwinists have to believe in very absurd things. Moreover, it is more complicated ... It is not only the camera eye, you also need a 'broadband' communication canal (optical nerve) to transfer tons of data (REAL-TIME) from the eye, to the brain. Most lay Darwinists don't realize the following - if you want to see, you need a very quick visual data processor (e.g. a brain), to process huge amount of visual data REAL-TIME. So you have an idea, here is the amount of data i talk about, from LiveScience: "Eye Transmits to Brain at Ethernet Speed" https://www.livescience.com/904-eye-transmits-brain-ethernet-speed.html "The researchers calculate that the 100,000 ganglion cells in a guinea pig retina transmit roughly 875,000 bits of information per second. The human retina contains about 10 times more ganglion cells than that of guinea pigs, so it would transmit data at roughly 10 million bits per second, the researchers estimate." I am an engineer, and then, there is a group of natural science graduates (biologists), who never made anything, just telling just-so-stories. They are telling 21st-century-engineers, just so, that blind unguided natural process can design such an advanced technology, which is hard to mimic even in 21st century ... Basically, these biologists claim, that a system much more advanced than a 8K camcorder self-designed, no engineers were needed, moreover, it was done by some mystic, trial-error process, but they never show you the errors. SO HOW ABSURD DOES THAT SOUND IN 21ST CENTURY ???martin_r
August 27, 2020
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In other words, the fossil record makes no sense, so here's what "musta" happened . . . (speculative science fantasy follows). -QQuerius
August 26, 2020
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Martin_r has a very interesting website dedicated to this topic: https://stuffhappens.info/jawa
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