Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinism Is Turtles, All The Way Down — I’ll Explain Below the Fold

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For those not familiar with “turtles all the way down,” I offer the following from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

The most widely known version today appears in Stephen Hawking’s 1988 book A Brief History of Time, which begins with an anecdote about an encounter between a scientist and an old lady:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.” The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on?” “You’re very clever, young man, very clever,” said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down.”

The association of Russell with this story is most likely due to Russell’s telling of a version of the story in his 1927 essay Why I Am Not a Christian (in discounting the “First Cause” argument intended to be a proof of God’s existence): “If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindus’ view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, “How about the tortoise?” the Indian said, “Suppose we change the subject.” The argument is really no better than that.

Russell apparently did not know or could not conceptually grasp the notion that time itself came into being at the origin of the universe, so the question of the origin of the cause of the universe is completely meaningless. Something must exist on the time line of the physical universe in order for the question of origins to have any meaning at all. But I digress.

So, how is Darwinism “turtles all the way down”? Just search and replace “turtles” with “speculation.”

In a previous UD comment I noted that Darwinian explanations for the evolution of anatomical features (e.g. the eye) depend on easily imagined, but undemonstrated, gross morphological and naturally selectable pathways. But I also noted that the starting point, a light-sensitive spot, would be of no use, without colossally complex mechanisms that could transform photon collisions into neurological signals that could result in meaningful muscle movements.

Commenter Hawks retorted: “The old ‘something cannot possibly have evolved unless it was for the sole purpose of doing what it is doing in modern organisms’, aka ‘something had to evolve the intricacies of whole biochemical pathways (including all its enzymes) all at once in one feel swoop’ argument. It is very convincing.”

This is the now tiresome co-option fantasy which I blogged about here.

So, you see, Darwinian “theory” really is turtles (oops, speculation) all the way down. Speculate about imagined but undemonstrated morphological pathways, and when challenged to explain the engineering that would be required, speculate about imagined but undemonstrated and highly improbable co-option scenarios.

When it comes to Darwinism, this is how “science” works.

Comments
For the anti-IDists and ID critics on this page: ID and MECHANISMS:
To say that ID has no proposed mechanism means only that we don't specifically know how ID was implemented. So what? Do we have any good reason to think that if ID was implemented at the origin of life (for example), then we should be able to determine how ID was implemented? Of course not. The truth of ID does not entail the ability to describe the process of design. Thus, the inability to describe the actual process that was implemented is essentially meaningless apart from its rhetorical appeal.
That said design is a mechanism. Sure that may be vague but so is "random variations/ mutations culled by natural selection"- that is unless you are going to tell us what mutations caused what changes. but everyone knows that is not going to happen. As for co-option we observe designing agencies do this every day. But when have we ever observed unguided, purpose-less processes do such a thing?Joseph
September 15, 2006
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I'm sure there must be other factors that would lead an evoBiologist to this assumption (That a material or basic structure is used in different places and for different purposes in an organism it must be drivative from a single original source). However, we see this all the time in things we know are designed. a striking example may be the gold used on the ornamentation on my Lexus (oh, was I dreaming?) is also used for electrical contacts in the same machine for totally different reasons. Also dashpots, circuit board components, code snippets, little metal balls, all kinds of similar and identical things are used all over the place in complex machinery for different purposes. This trait does not speak to whether or not something was designed or whether it could have come about by random processes. If anything, since we see that this trait in complex designed things is ubiquitous, It probably should be rejected as evidence for random development out of hand.kvwells
September 14, 2006
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ofro, You completely missed my point and don't see the forest for the trees. An empirically detectable, totally new role for a protein is completely irrelevant and meaningless in this discussion. Unless you can reverse engineer, in detail at the biochemical and genetic level, the process by which vision came about, and recreate it experimentally, you are just speculating. And even if you could recreate the process experimentally all you would have done is demonstrate that intelligent agency can create vision. Yet another step would be required: Demonstrate that random mutations could reasonably be expected to accomplish the same thing with the available probabilistic resources. Nothing even remotely close to any of this has been demonstrated, so it's all just speculation. Darwinian theory is based on an absurdly low standard of evidence compared to real science.GilDodgen
September 13, 2006
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GilDodgen: "And where is the evidence of the random generation of the genetic information that would be required to integrate these proteins into their new functions?" This statement says nothing about random generation. It is empirical experimental evidence, not theory, for a totally new role of these proteins in the lens: in the rest of the body some of these crystallins have a demonstrated enzyme function. In the lens they do not have this function since this tissue has a very low metabolic activity. In addition, they are present at very high concentrations, much higher than in any other cell in the body. Instead, the high concentration of the proteins enables the lens to diffract the incoming light. Different function. These are objective statements, no speculation whatsoever. Do you have a better explanation -any reasonable explanation- for this observation, perhaps based on design? An engineer will recognize the light-diffracting properties of a high-concentration protein solution.ofro
September 13, 2006
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ofro: "My post had four paragraphs. The first three were statements about the functions of proteins in the eye and lens that are differnt from in the rest of the body. No speculation here." Of course it's speculation! You can't see this? Where is the evidence that these proteins were co-opted from other functions? And where is the evidence of the random generation of the genetic information that would be required to integrate these proteins into their new functions? Sigh.GilDodgen
September 13, 2006
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GilDodgen: "It’s speculation, all the way down." My post had four paragraphs. The first three were statements about the functions of proteins in the eye and lens that are differnt from in the rest of the body. No speculation here. Only the last paragraph contained what you could call "speculation" and was a resonable mechanistic proposal.ofro
September 13, 2006
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Anyone care to comment on this research article? http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0040216Lurker
September 13, 2006
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Fross, "Sometimes the primary purpose and the secondary purpose get switched out in terms of how benificial they are in a particular environment. By doing so, the path to co-option can and does take place." Your post sounds like a simple restatement of the theory, but I'm willing to listen. Can you provide a concrete, known example of a biological structure which was known to have primary purpose A and sedondary purpose B which were then known to have "switched out" with each other. Please define the "particular environment" you had in mind, along with "how beneficial they are" is measured. Thanks.SteveB
September 13, 2006
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DaveScot and Ofro: if ID is to address how IC biological systems came to exist, is it fair to say that the question is basically "How and when does change in the instruction set for assembling the organ/organism occur?" Isn't this the same basic question before NDE? It seems ID could make a much closer approach to a credible general hypothesis since there is no requirement that chance be involved, whether or not it actually is.kvwells
September 13, 2006
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Ofro: “There has been a lot more co-option in the development of the eye than meets the eye in these circles... To show the versatility of co-option... It turns out that there are many familiar proteins in this group, all of them recruited into a function different from what they do elsewhere... There are co-opted metabolic enzymes... Note the presentation of speculation as established fact. This is standard Darwinian fare. The phenomena discussed above have never been observed or reproduced, but are assumed to have taken place because Darwinian theory requires them if the theory is true. The fact that there are “familiar proteins” is no evidence whatsoever that they have been co-opted. Ofro: “All that needs to be done is to mutate the promoters such that the proper genes are expressed in the proper cells. In other words, the hard work is done. Evolving a structure called eye... is relatively minor.” Once again, speculation presented as fact. If all that needs to be done is mutate, and the hard work is done, and evolving the eye is relatively minor, then it should be possible to demonstrate this process since it is such a trivial exercise. It’s speculation, all the way down.GilDodgen
September 13, 2006
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Davescot: "The difference is the ID poof offers a rational explanation for how incredibly complex digitally coded and controlled nanomachinery came into existence" I'd suggest that, while it may be a more comfortable explanation, it isn't necessarily more rational. Now, I am just a humble engineer, but the idea of random mutations filtered through natural selection is far more rational than "abracadabra" if for no other reason than there are conditions under which it is observable. As near as I can reckon, ID offers assessments of probabilities, but not observable phenomenom. Davescot:"Few are willing to believe the accidental poof story because in no one’s experience does complex machinery poof into existence by accident while we all know for certain it can be created by intelligent agency." This seems to be the whirlwind in a junkyard argument. The only place I have seen this employed, in my limited time hereabouts, is as an argument from incredulity offered up by critics of evolution. I've never seen evolution proponents offer poof. I just don't see how this rises above the level of caricature. Davescot:"Maybe you can tell me where assigning causes to random mutation instead of directed mutations leads more areas of inquiry." You mean besides that all of the last 150 years of evolutionary biology and large parts of genetics, immunology, paleontology, and agricultural science? Sorry, drawing a blank. Davescot: "How does “an unpredictable accident did it” become somehow superior to “an unpredictable intelligent force did it”. It seems to me the latter merely offers a more rational explanation for things which have the overwhelming appearance of design and in that way it is a superior explanation even though it’s just as wanting for predictability as the other." Whether it is more rational is debatable, but somewhat tangential to the real issue of where does it lead us. And I am struggling to see where ID leads us other than to either shrug our shoulders and say we just can't understand something so complex or, in extremis, to offer up entreaties to the designer over a Petri dish. But, until ID at least seeks to understand the designers methods, it sure looks like a dead-end. And when ID does decide to pursue such an understanding, isn't it just starting at the same point that evolutionary biology was at 150 years ago? That is alot of history to overthrow.cjok
September 13, 2006
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DaveScot:"It explains how irreducibly complex structures come to exist in nature. To follow up on your response, this sentence comes across stronger that it probably deserves to be. If the only answer to "how" is the claim that ID can detect the work of a designer, I agree. However, most scientists, and laypeople for that matter, expect more from the statement "how irreducibly complex structures come to exist", namely an indication on the way or mechanism this came about ("come to exist"). Either ID stops short of this claim, in which it is so limited that it is of little use for scientific exploration, or it has not made any effort to go further. I don't see that there should be an need to have the narrow version of "how" rigorously proved before one can endeavor to explore the wider version. Which efforts are currently in the works to go further?ofro
September 13, 2006
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cjok Well, having tried to follow this discussion and others like it, I don’t see how that explanation is much more than “Poof. Someone or something designed it.” Unfortunately that's true as there doesn't seem to be an evidentiary trail to the designer(s). Fortunately it augments current theory which is "Poof. An accident changed it." So you see, it's quite compatible with mainstream thought. The difference is the ID poof offers a rational explanation for how incredibly complex digitally coded and controlled nanomachinery came into existence. Few are willing to believe the accidental poof story because in no one's experience does complex machinery poof into existence by accident while we all know for certain it can be created by intelligent agency. Maybe you can tell me where assigning causes to random mutation instead of directed mutations leads more areas of inquiry. How does "an unpredictable accident did it" become somehow superior to "an unpredictable intelligent force did it". It seems to me the latter merely offers a more rational explanation for things which have the overwhelming appearance of design and in that way it is a superior explanation even though it's just as wanting for predictability as the other.DaveScot
September 13, 2006
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Davescot responds to Strangeloves assertion that ID proponents don't try to explain anything: "Yes it does. It explains how irreducibly complex structures come to exist in nature." Well, having tried to follow this discussion and others like it, I don't see how that explanation is much more than "Poof. Someone or something designed it." That seems to be pretty much a dead end unless you actually seek to understand who or what the designer is, what their motivation and methods were. And, if this previous comment is to be believed, ID doesn't go there. https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1530#comment-57812 Dave also writes:"Excuse me for my apparent cluelessness, but when did answers in science require that that they lend themselves to further scientific pursuit?" Well, you must certainly agree that is a pretty large part of how knowledge advances. To the extent that design detection moves beyond pocketwatch and Mount Rushmore metaphors, it should not be viewed as an end unto itself. It needs to lead somewhere. Merely saying "Yup, it is designed" and calling it a day doesn't advance us much past Thomas Aquinas.cjok
September 13, 2006
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I for one am incredulous as to how the ID 'discovery' (that all life has been designed with purpose) could result in boredom for the biologist. This is certainly not the result for the many Theistic Physicists and chemists. Wonderful Life will not cease to be wonderful if (unknown?) purpose is attached. Many of our NDE friends will, I believe, come to realize that the world is not as it seems to them after all, that they do have intrinsic value, and ZuZu's petals are still right where they've been all along.kvwells
September 13, 2006
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Let's come back to discussing the origin of the eye. It appears to me that when they are looking at the eye, the ID folks are focusing on gross anatomical features and totally disregard (suppress?) that many of the eye’s components are already in place. There has been a lot more co-option in the development of the eye than meets the eye in these circles. Let me just give you a few examples. The photoreceptor rhodopsin is am member of a large homologous family of structurally and sequence-wise related membrane proteins involved in cellular signaling, which includes hormone receptors and olfactory receptors. The biochemistry of signaling after receptor activation is the same for rhodopsin as for other members of this family. In fact, a single photon, activating a single rhodopsin molecule per cell is sufficient to trigger the biochemical signal amplification cascade (all components of which are known from other tissues where they have related functions), with the end result that that there is a macroscopic change in the current flowing into the cell. No need to invent anything new here. We all know that neurons and inter-neuronal synapses exist elsewhere and don’t need to be invented. To show the versatility of co-option, there is a bacterial rhodopsin homolog that has a different function, namely to capture the energy in light so that it can be converted into chemical energy in the form of ATP. Another example: the function of the lens is to focus the light so an image is formed on the retina. To that purpose, the lens cells are packed with many different proteins called crystallins. Although they have the same generic name, they make up many different unrelated proteins. It turns out that there are many familiar proteins in this group, all of them recruited into a function different from what they do elsewhere. Among the crystallins are heat shock proteins which function is to bind to many different cellular proteins and either protect them from heat denaturation of even help refold correctly after denaturation. Anther crystalline is homologous to a stress protein of the nematode C. elegans. There are co-opted metabolic enzymes among the crystallins: an aldehyde dehydrogenase, an argininosccinate lyase and an oxido-reductase. A retinol-binding protein is present with the new function to filter out UV rays and thus protect the retina. The components of the eye are available in the genome for other functions. All that needs to be done is to mutate the promoters such that the proper genes are expressed in the proper cells. In other words, the hard work is done. Evolving a structure called eye that focuses the light and contains all the components is relatively minor.ofro
September 13, 2006
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"At times two or more structural features, probably do need to evolve simultaneously, or in very rapid succession, for a higher-order structure and its function to be realized." "Before precise molecular pathways have been established, probability calculations regarding living systems are meaningless, and after they have been established they are changed from meaningless to superfluous, since a satisfactory probability of certain reactions, will have been established by their very occurrence." The first quote provides tacit support for irreducible complexity. The second quote demonstrates that ID is correct in arguing from probability. These are the two mainstays of ID theory. Guess who wrote the words I quoted? Emile Zuckerkandl.idnet.com.au
September 13, 2006
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"Also- that we can explain everything in life by pointing to it’s supposed survival benefit and its benefit in helping reproduction." If Darwinism means that every feature of an organism must provide some reproductive benefit then Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin aren't Darwinists, and Darwinism isn't synonymous with modern evolutionary theory. "I know of no scientific organization that makes room for theistic evolution." Thats becuase it's a philosophical position. Scientifically speaking there is currently no difference between theistic evolution and non-theistic evolution. "when did answers in science require that that they lend themselves to further scientific pursuit?" What a theory needs to do is provide a framework for prediction and scientific investigation, otherwise it's just a hypothesis. For intelligent design to become the dominant theory is has to be shown that it can do these things better than the current framework.Chris Hyland
September 13, 2006
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As I was revieing Strangelove's comment history here to see if there was any good reason to keep him around I found this https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/343#comment-7213 Strangelove and Cogzoid are the same person. Since Cogzoid was banned by Professer Dembski a year ago, and it's been my experience that Bill's decisions in these matters are sound ones, Cogzoid under his new name is no longer with us. Fare thee well, Cogzoid.DaveScot
September 13, 2006
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The explanation is simply to replace "random" in random mutation with "directed". No, but “this particular accident happened via this particular, understood process at this particular time” is, like, superior. You can't predict random mutations, we can't predict directed mutations. You do not know the causal chain of events causing any particular random mutation, we do not know the causal chain of events leading to any particular directed mutation. Sounds like the cluelessness factor is equal to me. Please explain why you think the former is superior. My problem is that one clueless narrative is exclusive and dogmatic in public education and the other is legally censored. Indeed, even criticism of the random cause narrative is legally censored. One narrative is dogma beyond criticism and the other is censored beyond mention. It’s not a requirement, but historically, it’s been generally true. The more we learn, the more we learn we don’t know. I don't think your answer could be more lame if you tried. There's plenty we don't know about intelligent design. You should have stopped with the admission that there's no requirement for answers in science to lead to further questions.DaveScot
September 13, 2006
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"Yes it does. It explains how irreducibly complex structures come to exist in nature." What exactly is this explanation? I certainly haven't heard it yet. "Oh, and saying “an accident happened at some time” is like what, superior? Don’t make me laugh." No, but "this particular accident happened via this particular, understood process at this particular time" is, like, superior. "Excuse me for my apparent cluelessness, but when did answers in science require that that they lend themselves to further scientific pursuit?" It's not a requirement, but historically, it's been generally true. The more we learn, the more we learn we don't know.Strangelove
September 13, 2006
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strangelove: It’s not that ID proponents do not pretend to explain everything, they don’t try to explain anything. Yes it does. It explains how irreducibly complex structures come to exist in nature. The ToE lends a hypothesis for how structures evolve. The hypothesis in question is "random mutation". Let's be clear about that. ID proposes "purposeful design" is also at work. You don’t like the hypothesis, fine. But you are unable to provide a better hypothesis than “something was designed at some time by some agent.” Oh, and saying "an accident happened at some time" is like what, superior? Don't make me laugh. A hypothesis that doesn’t lend itself to any scientific pursuit. Excuse me for my apparent cluelessness, but when did answers in science require that that they lend themselves to further scientific pursuit?DaveScot
September 13, 2006
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Thanks Karl, for providing a clear example why Wes set up the mirror site. Having your comments (especially pertinant questions) thrown down the memory hole is no fun.Strangelove
September 13, 2006
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Allow me to correct some misunderstanding (my part as well). A theory should try to explain everything in its realm. The ToE should TRY to explain every biological structure, every speciation, every genetic difference, etc. Does it succeed? Not yet. Is that a problem? Nope. It's a work in progress, like all rich avenues of research. Do scientists claim they are correct in every respect? Not that I see. Apparently you see differently. When you see an evopsych paper, you must be assume that they have arrogantly come up with an irrefutable theory. Sure, every scientist hopes for such, but most don't have the arrogance you are assigning them. Scientists are people. And science inherantly contains arguing. Competing theories arise all the time. Those scientists will adamantly defend their theories. Ultimately, through new data, or new perspectives, the more correct theory will arise. This is they way science works. It's not a perfect endevour, but no human endevour is. If you've been keeping up with the field, you'll notice that evopsych is a volatile science. Meaning that they aren't coming up with solid theories yet. The ToE, however, (don't conflate the two) hasn't had major upheavals in a long time. New data seems to be agreeing with the present theories quite well. It is only the minor points that are being argued over and discussed. You might be correct. A GUT may not exist. Does that stop science from pursuing it? Should it? It might just exist afterall, and be within the limits of our understanding. It's exciting to think that it's out there, although, it might be a little boring once we've found it.Strangelove
September 13, 2006
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Strangelove asks Jason: "Not that I’m defending the PTers, but are you trying to say that the ID protagonists (even on this blog) have always been civil and classy?" Strangelove, I'm pretty sure Jason is reacting to the following comment of mine: https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1598#comment-60656Karl Pfluger
September 13, 2006
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"Not that I’m defending the PTers, but are you trying to say that the ID protagonists (even on this blog) have always been civil and classy? " No- I'm saying that there are bad apples in all bunches. But, a simple look at this site and the Elsberry site says a lot. I don't see a single post here with the word "tard" in it. I don't even see any posts where the post contains name-calling "IDiot" for example, "tard", "retard", etc. The ID sites and anti-ID sites are like comparing apples and palm trees.JasonTheGreek
September 13, 2006
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So- you're saying that all scientific organizations define ToE as what? Blind watchmaker evolution? I know of no scientific organization that makes room for theistic evolution. I think it's safe to assume they conclude that ToE equals what I said then. Blind watchmaker...trillions of accidents. Life is the result of survival and reproduction and that's that. YOU were the one that said a theory should try to explain everything. And, google evolution, evopsych, etc- and you will see that evolution tries to explain everything in the realm of biology. It tries to explain why we believe in imaginary Gods (well, imaginary to those who claim that evolution created these false God ideas long ago in our ancestors)...it claims to explain why we like chocolate. Why many men like blondes (except when they like brunettes), how all life came to be, how you came to be, why you THINK you have free will but really don't. I could go on for days. Yes, in the field of biology, religion, society, genetics, etc- ToE claims to explain it all. A proposed theory of everything? And? It doesn't exist. Most think it will never exist, and they probably think so because they know that no theory could explain everything.JasonTheGreek
September 13, 2006
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"And this sort of civil and oh-so-classy material:..." Not that I'm defending the PTers, but are you trying to say that the ID protagonists (even on this blog) have always been civil and classy?Strangelove
September 13, 2006
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Umm. Speaking of Elsberry's site- this is creepy. "About This weblog exists to store the sometimes evanescent postings made at antievolution blogs." http://antievolution.org/buud/?page_id=2 Two thoughts pop into my head- 'stalker' and '1984' Of course, it's just a carbon copy of this site and others similar along with all the comments on the site. If someone carbon copied a website I created, I wouldn't be sure if I should smile knowing I had a fan club or cringe in fear that people were following my every move, as if this was communist russia. Maybe when they hold the public trials, we'll all be found guilty or not guilty based on the fact they're "always watching" and have the records to prove it.JasonTheGreek
September 12, 2006
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"If all the evidence pointed 100% conclusively to “all in biology was designed” what your proposed plan on scientific pursuit would be. What would your overall hypothesis be besides “this and this were designed by some designing agent at some time.”" I completely agree. It sounds like a completely boring result if you ask me. I know of no scientific organization that shares your distinction between "Darwinian evolution" and the ToE, so I'm not going to use it. Do you know of one? The ToE does not try nor claim to explain everything. It offers no hypothesis to test how electrons orbit their nuclei, nor does it try to explain the cosmic microwave background. Those are just two trivial examples of things the ToE doesn't bother to explain. Can you provide links to show where the ToE is claiming to explain everything? Physics, on the other hand, does indeed try to explain everything. Ever hear of the holy grail of Physics, the Grand Unified Theory?Strangelove
September 12, 2006
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