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Darwin’s “Sacred” Cause: How Opposing Slavery Could Still Enslave

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darwin-as-ape3Those who follow the Darwin industry are very familiar with Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist by Adrian Desmond and James Moore. In that biography they were one of the few biographers to highlight young Charles’ Edinburgh years (October 1825 to April 1827) and show the powerful influences that experience had on the teenager. Here too in Desmond and Moore’s new Darwin’s Sacred Cause, Edinburgh becomes the substantive starting point. This is as it should be since the freethinkers he would be exposed to in the radical Plinian Society (a largely student-based group Darwin seemed to relish given his attendance at all but one of its 19 meetings during his stay there) would have a profund influence on his thinking for the rest of his life. Desmond and Moore correctly acknowledge this, observing that this period “helped condition his life’s work on the deepest social — and scientific — issues” (17). Indeed the Plinians would steep Charles in a radical materialism that the present biographers admit was “mirrored” in his work a decade later (35).

All well and good so far. But not quite.  This is a book with its own cause. From the outset the authors explain frankly that , “We show the humanitarian roots that nourished Darwin’s most controversial and contested work on human ancestry” (xviii). And those “humanitarian roots,” we are told again and  again throughout its 376 narrative pages was Darwin’s passionate and unwavering hatred of slavery.  “No one has appreciated the source of that moral fire that fuelled his strange, out-of-character obsession with human origins. Understand that,” they insist, “and Darwin can be radically reassessed” (xix).  And what is that reassessment?  The reader is not left waiting:  “Ours is a book about a caring, compassionate man who was affected for life by the scream of a tortured slave” (xx).

At issue, of course, isn’t the horrific abomination of slavery nor Darwin’s abhorrence of it (this has long been known and acknowledged by historians) but rather the purported impact that Desmond and Moore claim his abolitionism had on his theory’s development and purpose.  In short, the question is, does the anti-slavery Darwin necessarily make for a “kinder, gentler” Darwin? An affirmative answer must rest upon two supports, one conceptual and the other factual. The remainder of this essay will examine both to answer this question.

 
One of the more interesting trajectories of this book is it anchoring in Darwin’s early Edinburgh years, a comparatively short period but one fraught with significance for Darwin.  In this starting point I fully concur with Desmond and Moore.  While many look to his voyage on the Beagle (December 1831 to October 1836) as introducing the young naturalist to the fullness of nature’s laboratory that would culminate in his theory of natural selection and a wholly naturalistic evolutionary theory, these authors point to the earlier Edinburgh experiences as establishing the seminal backdrop for all else that would follow.  They point out that Edinburgh was rife with discussions of race, cranial size, and phrenology.  Some attempted to demonstrate the validity of scientifc racism, others the opposite. All — or nearly all — were cast in materialistic terms. Desmond and Moore’s summary is quite accurate:

So this wasn’t the barren period Darwin in his biography would have us believe.  Issues of environmental versus anatomical determinism, and a self-animated versus a Creatively animated nature, were being thrashed out all around him, issues which would have repurcussions for generations, inside and outside Darwin’s own work.  Arguments about brain sizes, innate dispositions and racial categories were still raging, putting a consensus some way off.  Groups were competing to sway the students and Darwin was at the center of it. But the young innocent probably wasn’t so much embroiled as wide-eyed.  Still, many of these themes would later resurface in his own work on human racial descent (43).

During Darwin’s stay at Cambridge, he too was exposed to many ideas, not the least of which was a vocal but conflicted anti-slavery impluse.  Through it all, insist Desmond and Moore, Darwin “held fast with radically pliant ‘brotherbood’ science and shackle-breaking ideology in true Whig tradition” (57).  Indeed Darwin would, according to the authors, reject the measuring, weighting, calculating racial anthropologists (those self-important, confident phrenologists and physiognomists)  he had found in Edinburgh.  “No skull collecting would mark his science,” they insist.” He would find a very different way of approaching black and white, slave and free” (110).

It is important to keep this claim in mind since it is crucial to Desmond and Moore’s thesis that while he became a “secret materialist — happy to have brains secrete even religious notions as physiological byproducts” (132), he would eschew the scientific racism implicit (and more often than not explicit) in this radical materialism in favor of a wholly naturalistic theory confirming a common descent and botherhood of all mankind. They refer to it as generations of “brotherly common descents” (141).

How he accomplishes this forms a considerable part of Darwin’s Sacred Cause. Basically, by establishing common descent as a viable scientific paradigm, Darwin was able to settle the old monogenist/polygenist debate once and for all.  The monogenists viewed human development on earth as emanating from a common pair — this was, for some, most eloquently described in the opening chapters of Genesis.  But there were non-biblical monogenists as well.  Polygenists, however, believed in multiple origins for humanity.  As America headed towards Civil War, the polygenists held the upper hand.  The biblical monogenism of James Cowles Prichard (1786-1848) looked antiquated against the “scientific” racism of Josiah Clark Nott (1804-1873), George R. Gliddon (1809-1857), and others. Desmond and Moore describe in detail how Darwin sought to establish a viable counter to the polygenists with an explanation of human origins that was at once naturalistic and based upon a common descent.  In effect, a science of human oneness and brotherhood.  They describe how the publication of Darwin’s Origin in 1859 tipped the scales permanently in his favor, citing the example of Charles Loring Brace (1826-1890), an abolitionist firebrand who claimed to have read the book thirteen times.

All this is true.  Darwin was adamantly opposed to slavery, Darwin did end — eventually — the polgenists’ claim to scientific respectability.  But this alone would hardly warrant a book.  As mentioned before, historians have long known of Darwin’s consistent antipathy towards slavery.  As for his role in settling the monogenist/polygenist dispute, that too has long been known (n. 1). The essential problem with Desmond and Moore’s effort is their naive assumption that anti-slavery means egalitarian and humanitarian.  This is a conceptual problem that haunts the book throughout. There really is no reason to assume an immediate and direct relationship between the one and the other, and the example of Charles Loring Brace given above goes not only to this point but to demonstrate the selective treatment they give to this whole subject.  Charles Loring Brace was indeed a vocal opponent of slavery and also and ardent Darwinist. What Desmond and Moore do not say is that Brace viewed blacks as inherently inferior and was himself a vocal opponent of miscegenation.  In the words of historian George M. Fredrickson, Brace made “the Darwinian case for differentiation of the races by natural selection . . . [and] ended up with a view of racial differences which was far from egalitarian in its implications” (n. 2). Brace held out little hope for “the mullato” and finished up by declaring, “there is nothing in the gradual diminution and destruction of a savage or inferior race in contact with a more civilized and powerful which is ‘mysterious’ . . . . The first gifts of civilization are naturally fatal to a barbarous people . . . . (n. 3). Fredrickson quite accurately points out that “Brace’s pioneering effort to devolop a Darwinist ethnology in opposition to the American School, although animated to some degree by antislavery humanitarianism, had demonstrated that most of the hierarchical assumptions of the polygenists could be justified just as well, if not better, in Darwinian terms” (n. 4).

The example of Josiah Clark Nott underscores this point.  Desmond and Moore spend considerable time showing how the Alabamian’s rabid polygenism formed the basis for an extreme racism and justification for slavery; they fail to point out that in the end Nott was able to reconcile with Darwinism.  Nott recognized at once that he had been outdone by Darwin’s irreligious formulations.  Writing to Ephraim Squire in the summer of 1860, Nott quipped, “the man [Darwin] is clearly crazy, but it is a capital dig into the parson — it stirs up Creation and much good comes out of such thorough discuassions” (n. 5).  In the end, Nott came to accept Darwin’s theory of man’s common descent.  Indeed he claimed nothing of what he wrote on the race question was negated but simply refined, and who was not to say that even in Darwin’s world races might not be “permanent varieties” (n. 6).  The point, of course, isn’t whether or not any of this is true — it is obvious nonsense and most of Nott’s contemporaries recognized it as such — but whether Darwin’s defeat of polygenist theory and its replacement with his common descent really had any difference in the end toward establishing a science of brotherhood is doubtful.  Brace, Nott, and many others could enbrace common descent precisely because it suggested nothing close to racial brotherhood.

This poor conceptualization of anti-slavery and ipso facto humanitarianism is compounded by a misunderstanding of Darwin himself.  Desmond and Moore correctly point out the crucial impact that the Edinburgh freethinkers had upon him and his theory, but they are simply wrong in contending that he distanced himself from their emerging racial craniology.  Their denials notwithstanding, there were skulls in Darwin’s science.  In his Descent of Man (1871) Paul Boca’s crantiometry is referenced approvingly.  While Darwin was careful to avoid the implication that “the intellect of any two animals or of any two men can be accurately gauged by the cubic contents of their skulls,” he seemed to give accumulated aggregate craniometric data some evidentiary weight.  “The belief that there exists in man some close relation between the size of the brain and the development of the intellectual faculties is supported by the comparison of skulls of savage and civilized races, of ancient and modern people, and by the analogy of the whole vertebrate series” (n. 7).  Citing the work of physician/craniologist Joseph Barnard Davis (1801-1881), Darwin noted that Europeans had a cranial capacity of 92.3, Americans 87.5, Asiatics 87.1, and Australians 81.9 cubic inches.  Clearly, if Darwin did in fact believe in a brotherhood of man it was a very unequal brotherhood.

Darwin’s “bullbog defender” Thomas Henry Huxley provides yet another example.  A devoted Darwinian, Huxley did not translate common descent into common equality.  Like Brace, Huxley was relieved to witness the end of America’s “peculiar institution.”  Writing at the end of the war that had raged for four years across the Atlantic, Huxley said, “But whatever the position of stable equilibrium into which the laws of social gravitation may bring the negro, all responsibility for the result will henceforward lie between nature and him. The white man may wash his hands of it, and the Caucasian conscience be void of reproach for evermore.  And this, if we look to the bottom of the matter, is the real justification for the abolition policy” (n. 8). Even Desmond and Moore must admit that Huxley “shared none of Darwin’s ‘man and brother’ sympathy” (275).

But how keen really was that “man and brother” sympathy for Darwin himself?  After well over 300 pages of explication designed to show how Darwin’s anti-slavery passion led to his “brotherly common descent” we find the crux of the matter:  “It was a humanitarianism that Darwin took pride in. His anti-slavery and anti-cruelty ethic was inviolate. Yet the incongruity of his class holding this ethic sacrosanct while disparaging the ‘lower’ classes (even as colonists displaced or exterminated them) [emphasis added] is impossible to comprehend by twenty-first century standards” (370).  Darwin was indeed a product of his class as any reading of his Descent will prove; in fact, it formed the very basis of his conception of man as a social animal (n. 9).  But it will take more than Desmond and Moore’s eight pages of dismissive discussion of Descent to see that.  Instead the quotation above would imply they’re trying get Darwin off the hook by pleading he was just a “man of his times” and failure to appreciate this dichotomy is mere presentism.  Frankly, it would have been incomprehensible for some in the nineteenth century as well — Thaddeus Stevens (1792-1868), Theodore Weld (1803-1895), William Lloyd Garrison (1805-1879), Wendell Phillips (1811-1884), John Marshall Harlan (1833-1911), and George Frisbie Hoar (1826-1904) found this kind of hypocracy repugnant.  Darwin’s work was supposed to be prescient, path-breaking, revolutionary.  But by book’s end Darwin looks pretty conventional, even compliantly if somewhat minimally racist himself.  Writing to former slave-holder Charles Kingsley, Darwin admits, “It is very true what you say about the higher races of men, when high enough, will have spread & exterminated whole nations.”  Desmond and Moore admit, “racial genocide was now normalized by natural selection and rationalized as nature’s way of producing ‘superior’ races. Darwin ended up calibrating human ‘rank’ no differently from the rest of his society.  After shunning talk of ‘high’ and ‘low’ in his youthful evolution books, he had ceased to be unique or interesting on the subject” (318).

So in the end we find Darwin’s “sacred” cause was, well, not all that sacred. His cause was less about slavery and more about common descent, which in the final analysis had nothing whatsoever to do with equality.  In fact, it could easily be argued Darwin cleared out the polygenists to give way to a new generation of racial discriminators and engineers.  Based upon Darwinian principles, Darwin’s fascination with breeder and domestic stocks, opened the door to manipulating human “stock,” of managing and even culling the “unfit.” Not that Darwin himself would have condoned that, but surely, Francis Galton (1822-1911), took the evolutionary ball handed him by his cousin and ran with it.  In the end, Darwin’s cause was hardly humanitarian and by no means sacred.  As the lampooning cartoon that opens this essay suggests, if Darwin proved that man is a mere animal related (however distantly) to his ape ancestors then, like the domestic pigeons he was so fond of studying and analogizing from, mankind was capable of being bred, manipulated, and “improved.”  That sort of biological historicism unleashed by Darwinian theory has exacted an enormous price.

Of course, this suggests a connection between Darwin and the more unseemly Social Darwism.  I have likely imposed upon the reader’s time long enough, but for those who would like to explore this in greater detail, Mike Hawkin’s Social Darwinism in European and American Thought, 1860-1945 (Cambridge UP, 1997) is highly recommended.  For now, I will simply say that Darwin’s Sacred Cause has proved not what its authors intended, but instead that passionate opposition to slavery could — indeed did — enslave this Victorian elitist who was shackled (if not by racism) by a theory that was crafted to support his own class and prejudice.  History is full of irony!

Notes

1. See Herbert H. Odum, “Generalizations on Race in Nineteenth-Century Physical Anthropology,” Isis 58.1 (Spring 1967): 4-18.

2. George M. Fredrickson, The Black Image in the White Mind: The Debate on Afro-American Character and Destiny, 1817-1914 (New York: Harper Torchbook, 1971), p. 234.

3. Quoted in Ibid., p. 235.

4. Ibid.

5. John S. Haller Jr., Outcasts from Evolution: Scientific Attitudes of Racial Inferiority, 1859-1900, 2nd ed. (Carbondale: Southern Illinois University Press, 1995), p. 80.

6. Ibid.

7. Charles Darwin, Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex (1871; reprinted, New York: Barnes & Noble, 2004), p. 42.

8. Thomas Henry Huxley, “Emancipation — Black and White” (1865),  http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE3/B&W.html accessed 2/15/09.

9.  Like his fellow Victorian imperialists, Darwin could view the extinction of indigenous peoples with an unsettling indifference. There is considerable evidence to support the view that Darwin saw struggle as product of culture and class more than race:  “When civilized nations come into contact with barbarians the sturggle is short, except where a deadly climate gives its aid to the native race. Of the causes which lead to the victory of civilized nations, some are plain and simple, others complex and obscure. We can see that the cultivation of the land will be fatal in many ways to savages, for they cannot, or will not, change their habits. . . . The grade of their civilization seems to be a most important element in the success of competing nations.” Descent, op. cit., p. 156.

Darwin always viewed indigenous peoples with the Eurocentric eyes of power and class, and he had thought this long before writing Descent. In The Voyage of the Beagle he wrote the following of the natives he encountered on Tierra del Fuego:

The perfect equality among the individuals composing the Fuegian tribes must for a long time retard their civilization. As we see those animals, whose instinct compels them to live in society and obey a chief, are most capable of improvement, so it is with the races of mankind. Whether we look at it as a cause or consequence, the more civilized always have the more artificial governments. For instance, the inhabitants of Otaheite, who, when first discovered, were governed by hereditary kings, had arrived at a far higher grade than another branch of the same people, the New Zealanders, — who, although benefited by being compelled to turn their attention to agriculture, were republicans in the most absolute sense. In Tierra del Fuego, until some chief shall arise with power sufficient to secure any acquired advantage, such as the domestication of animals, it seems scarcely possible that the political state of the country can be improved. At present, even a piece of cloth given to one is torn into shreds and distributed; and no one individual becomes richer than another. On the other hand, it is difficult to understand how a chief can arise till there is property of some sort by which he might manifest his superiority and increase his power.

I believe, in this extreme part of South America, man exists in a lower state of improvement than in any other part of the world. — Charles Darwin, The Voyage of the Beagle, 2nd ed. (1845; reprinted, New York: Tess Press, n.d.), pp. 214-215.

Basing Darwin’s humanitarianism on his abhorrence of slavery and a purported “brotherhood of man” largely misses the point. Historians have long known that Darwin’s racial classifications were based more upon levels of cultural attainment than ethnic groups. See, for example, Goria McConnaughey, “Darwin and Social Darwinism,” Osiris 9 (1950): 397-412.

Comments
To Mark Frank, I'm sorry if I've lost you with my ramblings. Let's review a couple examples and the questions you haven't yet addressed. (But if that doesn't help, you need to give me a better idea of what you find difficult to understand.) 1. Concerning rape, you mentioned that “We have also evolved a sense of compassion.” However, that is not true of all. As I said
If compassion is an evolved feature, we both know that it would be nonsense to insist that every member of a species “ought” to manifest every feature ever associated with that species. Some have compassion. Others do not. If those that do not have compassion do not act compassionately, how do we justifiably claim, “Well, they ought to.”?
I submit that you could coherently claim to have reactions against rape (just as others have reaction for it), but you have no coherent basis within Darwinian materialism for saying those who do not share your reaction (e.g. the rapist) *ought* to have your reaction. You might prefer that, you might work toward that, but that doesn't get you to "They ought to prefer what I prefer." any more than you could claim that everyone ought to like the same food or that all finch beaks ought to be the same size and shape. If rape has been preserved by evolution, how does the Darwinian materialist coherently exclude its claim to as much evolved historic legitimacy as the compassion that you may feel? 2. Hindu culture has been steeped for many centuries in a caste system ("Etymology: Portuguese casta, literally, race, lineage" Merriam-Webster). Some people react strongly against how that treats people of the lower castes. However, if you were there and interfered, you might find yourself on the minority side of very hostile reactions against your minority view. Both perspectives have reactions of a moral nature. Within Darwinian materialism, can you coherently claim that some moral reactions are the right ones while others are the mistaken ones? Or do you have simply competing preferences, fueled by alternate reactions. 3. In the movie Quigley Down Under, we get a vivid portrayal of competing reactions regarding the advance of "superior" races into Australia with the consequence of pushing "inferior" races toward extinction. When it is pointed out that Darwin writes about this in ways that many find offensive, Allen_MacNeill points out that Darwin is only predicting what his theory says will happen, not indicating his personal preference. I suggest we accept Allen's claim as true and see what this implies regarding Darwinian materialism. If Darwinism predicts this push of lesser races toward extinction, what then is the coherent basis upon which a Darwinian materialist may argue to the people who are fulfilling that prediction "You ought not do what we have predicted you will do."? Darwinism says (supposedly) how life and evolution have been operating over millions of years. How does the Darwinian materialist now claim that this is wrong, that it ought not to be so, and that all those who do not share this reaction ought to?" (Or, if that cannot be done, then we are really just talking about competing preferences?) 4. I alluded earlier to The Time Machine and the picture of race relations given there. Is there a basis within Darwinian materialism upon which one could conclude that ought not to happen, or that the superiors ought not to treat the inferiors in that way? How would your reaction to it be the right one and the reaction of all the superiors wrong? How is this not just a matter of competing preferences? A common weakness in your reasoning appears to me to be that you have not yet dealt with the fact that human reactions point in many different and competing directions, especially depending on how a situation will affect them. When your examples imply that "moral emotions" give insight into how most people would react, it assumes a picture in which you haven't yet grappled with the fact that people can have completely different reactions, even with the same knowledge of the facts (cf. the issue of perspective mentioned multiple times above). Without access to an "ought" that is distinct from what "is", the Darwinian materialist is left with competing preferences. You might react strongly against how the superior races utilize their advantages while others react favorably. You might claim your moral emotions give you access to a kind of idea of what is wrong, but you haven't shown any ability to claim a uniquely different status from other competing reactions. It would be incoherent -- not logically meaningful -- for the Darwinian materialist to claim there is a right answer to whose reactions are the right ones to have and whose are the wrong ones to have. It would be especially incongruous to claim that those who are fulfilling the predictions of Darwinism are acting wrongly by pushing "inferior" races toward extinction, or that they ought not to act as living creatures have been acting for millions of years. Nevertheless, materialists (e.g. Allen_MacNeill) seem determined to avoid such implications.ericB
March 1, 2009
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StephenB What is your moral code? By a moral code I guess you mean what I hold to be right and wrong. I would find it hard to write it down exactly. Compassion and fairness are big components but I would always be prepared to come across a new situation which made me feel differently. What is your rational justification for holding it? Well I thought I had said that about a million times. My justification is that there are things I that I find strongly motivating and I believe others would if they saw it the way I do. I suspect that you would not find that to be a rational justification. I don't think there can be any other. All other justifications need themselves to be justified. How do you get from matter to morality? The same way I get from food to hunger. To the extent that I am moral, it is built in to my nature (like everyone I do not always behave morally - by a long chalk). It is very similar to your reasons for being moral. I find it gives my life direction, happiness, and freedom. I just find I don't need any kind of code to come between the situation and my reaction to it. If someone asks me for my moral principles they are descriptive not prescriptive. They are description of how I find things.Mark Frank
March 1, 2009
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----Mark: "I really don’t know what the hard problem is. I thought I did but now I am confused. I think it is the term “grounding” that I can’t really fathom. Do you mean the cause of our morality or the justification or something else?" I will not presume to speak for EricB, who is more than capable of speaking for himself. Still, your response prompts a three part question of my own: What is your moral code? What is your rational justification for holding it? How do you get from matter to morality?StephenB
March 1, 2009
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Gentlemen: The exchanges in this thread have been very enlightening, but also quite saddening. Especially when we consider that in the name of "science," materialism is being acrticvley promoted in our educaiton, media and policymaking i9ntitutions across our civlisation. The implications, in light of the above, do not bode well for our future. Can we not stop, look again and rethink our path? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 1, 2009
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StephenB You are right that it is time to end this discussion which never makes any progress at all. I seriously doubt that there is anyone out there watching it to be edified. EricB I am still struggling to understand you. For a Darwinistic materialist to talk as though there is a universal moral standard that all humans ought to follow is not so much “silly” as incoherent. As you know I don't believe there is a universal moral standard - just very commonly accepted moral standards based on human nature. I don’t find an answer to the hard problem of how to make sense out of grounding such ideas within Darwinistic materialism. I really don't know what the hard problem is. I thought I did but now I am confused. I think it is the term "grounding" that I can't really fathom. Do you mean the cause of our morality or the justification or something else?Mark Frank
February 28, 2009
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At 151: ----- If you say that something is interesting are you saying it is objectively interesting? "Interesting" is solely a matter of opinion and can only be subjective. Nothing can be objectively interesting. A thing can be objectively good and, in many cases, healthy minds will "perceive" it as interesting. Right and wrong are also objective matters of fact. ----"What makes the morality of human nature appropriate? Who decides if it is appropriate and on what basis?" That question perplexes me. Do you think that the morality of monkeys or elephants would be more appropriate to humans than the morality of human nature? Obviously, the creator of human nature is the one who decides the morality of human nature. -----"What do you say to the person who says - I don’t want to follow the natural moral law (whatever that is). What possible reason can you give them?" My answer at 125 has not changed. Objective morality produces direction, happiness, freedom, and life; moral relativism promotes confusion, misery, slavery, and death. Also, there is the matter of the next life that some would want to take into account. On another matter, since animals have no free will, they are not subject to that same morality. ----"You must be joking. Have you ever owned a dog?" If you think that dogs should be held to the same moral code as humans, or if you believe that they possess anything like human free will then the joke is clearly not on me. Wouldn't it be easier for you to say that, as a materialist, you simply don't believe in free will at all. I realize that this discussion is not edifying for either of us, but I am communicating to those who do have an interest.StephenB
February 28, 2009
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Mark Frank (147):
I think I undestand you. You are concerned that modern evolutionary theory means it is silly to expect all people to behave and be treated the same way. So morality is not universal.
Close, perhaps. But perhaps not quite. For a Darwinistic materialist to talk as though there is a universal moral standard that all humans ought to follow is not so much "silly" as incoherent. Where can this idea be grounded within Darwinistic materialism (as opposed to being taken from the cultural expectations grounded in transcendent moral realism)? What I notice most about your reply is what it doesn't contain. I don't find an answer to the hard problem of how to make sense out of grounding such ideas within Darwinistic materialism. But that is no discredit to you. I believe it is unsolvable. Such ideas don't fit. With regard to earlier posts, I do want to acknowledge that it could make sense to talk about people having various emotions, or reactions, or preferences for or against what others do -- possibly grounded in some combination of nature and nurture. I raise no objections to this. I readily grant a world of competing preferences (though I don't believe you have yet addressed the issue of the relativism of perspective, i.e. that even given full knowledge of a situation, humans can still have profoundly different reactions depending on which perspective they view the event from). Nevertheless, regarding the idea that all humans ought to be behaving in a particular way, even in ways that run counter to the predictions of Darwinism -- it appears this is a foreign idea artificially grafted from outside. As I understand it, so far your response on this point is not to offer an explanation that makes a universal human standard coherent within Darwinian materialism, but rather to essentially suggest that whatever difficulties you may have, other positions run into exactly the same difficulties. But that is simply not the case. The problem is not created by genetic differences. Recall what I said in 144.
The problem I am describing is not one about freedom. It is not about ability. I am not questioning whether the rapist could stop raping or whether the superior race could stop pushing inferior races toward extinction. Assume that both are possible, even within Darwinian materialism.
Even while granting this, the problem I am pointing to remains in undiminished full force for Darwinian materialism. The issue is, even if they could behave differently, how is it meaningful to say that everyone *ought* to? Even now, I am not here focusing on motivation as much as coherence. If you think there could be a coherent answer, we could go further and ask, "Whose "ought to" is the "ought to" that everyone else "ought to" conform to?" Within Darwinian materialism, this seems to lead inescapably to nonsense. We can't universally conform to every competing claim for "ought". The issue is not genetics. It is logical incoherence. But within transcendent moral realism, the idea that there exists a standard for human behavior is not only coherent, it is essential to the core of the position. I grant you may be skeptical that it is true, but that is not the problem of an internal inconsistency in the position. So the suggestion that the problem of coherence exists equally for all positions simply isn't the case. The difference between them in this regard could not be more stark. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you are hinting at questions about how to measure blame regarding discrepancies between ought and is. But that is an independent question. If a musician plays the wrong notes, there could be any number of reasons. It might be due to her eyesight, or failure to practice, or lack of talent, or the fault of the teacher, or other reasons too numerous to mention. She might not even realize that she has played wrong notes. Whatever the case, the fact remains that there is a discrepancy between the intended and the actual, and -- regarding the point at hand -- that it is coherent and meaningful to say that there is a discrepancy. Darwinian materialism does not (yet) appear to even get as far as that. What's more, if we look at your statements, they are most damaging to your own claims of being able to say that Darwinian materialism can rationally apply one standard to others (e.g. rape is wrong).
MF: People are different and cannot help being different - however they got that way. So is it rational to apply the same moral principles to all of them.
For transcendent moral realism, the answer is "yes, of course". When a standard exists, that is of course what one compares with. (But that does not imply a particular answer regarding blame, or consequences, or other separate concerns.) For Darwinian materialism, it so far seems that the answer must be "No, this is not rational or coherent. People who do so must be laboring under misleading impressions or reactions, such as the person who thinks that everyone should like the same foods as they do."ericB
February 28, 2009
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Re #151 To say something is “wrong,” without qualifying it as, “seems wrong” or ,”is wrong is my opinion,” is to say that it is objectively wrong. Absolute rubbish. If you say that something is interesting are you saying it is objectively interesting? The reason is that our human nature, which includes the faculty of free-will, carries with it an appropriate morality of human nature called the “natural moral law.” This sentence seems close to meaningless to me. What makes the morality of human nature appropriate? Who decides if it is appropriate and on what basis? What do you say to the person who says - I don't want to follow the natural moral law (whatever that is). What possible reason can you give them? Since animals have no free will, they are not subject to that same morality. You must be joking. Have you ever owned a dog?Mark Frank
February 28, 2009
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----"Mark: "You may not agree but to simply announce that “therefore rape is both wrong and not wrong” is just to assume your case is obviously true and ignore everything that has gone before." No, it is to simply site your quote which reads: "I don’t know that many materialists would claim that rape is objectively wrong (presumably only those that believe in objective morals). They just claim it is wrong.” To say something is "wrong," without qualifying it as, "seems wrong" or ,"is wrong is my opinion," is to say that it is objectively wrong. Therefore to say that, for a materiialist, something is not objectively wrong but wrong neverthertheless is to make a contradictory statement. That is not even a close call. One cannot logically deny something is objectively wrong and then assert that it is wrong nevertheless. Also, don't forget the attending error(in parenthesis) namely, the one which forgets that materialism rules out objective morality in principle. ----"Now answer me a simple question. Suppose moral goodness is a non-material reality. Why do morally good things?" The reason is that our human nature, which includes the faculty of free-will, carries with it an appropriate morality of human nature called the "natural moral law." Since animals have no free will, they are not subject to that same morality. Materialists (and Darwinists) seek to reduce man to animal status, therefore exempting him from the natural moral and providing him with the rational justification for acting like an animal.StephenB
February 28, 2009
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Re MF, 147: >> most creationists/IDers believe that people are genetically different - even if they disagree about how they got that way. So they have the same problem. People are different and cannot help being different - however they got that way. So is it rational to apply the same moral principles to all of them. Why should some not be privileged? >> We see here what happens when we do not attend to key, easily accessible expositions. Let us simply cite: __________________ Paul, Athens, AD 50: Ac 17:24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' Paul, to the Romans, AD 57: Rom 13: 8 . . . he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. __________________ Locke, citing Hooker in his 2nd treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 Sect 5: . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant. _______________ US Declaration of Independence, 1776: We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes . . . when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . ______________ In short, the precise point of the Creation-based view is that we are fundamentally equal as made in God's image, and are mutually obligated by neighbour-love; the denial of which ends in incoherences and absurdities -- as we saw above in this thread. (Some of this was already cited above in this very thread . . . ) The design view obviously is not so specific, but on the common-sense position that we are obviously equals in nature [as a common species of rational animals], and are thus mutually morally obligated to respect the dignity of persons, it would infer to the same basic view. GEM of TKI PS: One subtle implication of MF's remarks is that ID and Creationism are essentially the same. This is not so, and MF should be careful to mark the distinction; given a commonplace rhetorical smear tactic.kairosfocus
February 28, 2009
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9 --> In short, SB cited rape (and earlier the torturing of babies) as classic instances of conduct that the denial of the wrongness of is a mark of error or worse. EricB at 135 has given an excellent summary of why:
I don’t consider “wrong” to be a property of the act or object or event in and of itself in isolation. As described in my post 134, it describes a comparison that finds a contrast or discrepancy between two things, i.e. between the actual and the intended outcomes, between what it is and what it ought to be. Thus, it is not a fact about the object itself, but it is a fact about the contrast with the ought. When there is no intention, no ought, then “right” and “wrong” are meaningless in that context . . . If something is caused by a mindless, unguided process of nature, it simply is what it is. It would then be nonsense to say the outcome ought to have been otherwise.
11 --> In short, the human person is an end in her-/him- self, and we are all equally human persons. So, to violently abuse such a person, by rape or by torture, is to create a wrongful gap between the is and the ought; thus to be OBJECTIVELY wrong. 12 --> What is more, as the hint at Kant's Categorical Imperative in 11 indicates, should such behaviour propagate unchecked across a society, it would utterly break it down or outright destroy it. [That is we here have a thought-experiment test, or -- sadly -- a practical one -- for moral wrong. (Resemblance to present trends in our civilisation are NOT coincidental, even as H G Wells warned against in his 1897/9 War of the Worlds.)] 13 --> Therefore, there is indeed objective moral truth, and that rape and torture of infants is wrong are two instances of such. 14 --> This also brings us back to the problems triggered by the inherent purposelessness of materialism, and to implications of its denial of non-material realities. 15 --> For, plainly its denial of objective truth and morality stem from its purposelessness [ought is not to be found in its premises as purpose is absent therefrom], and it objects to things that are objectively real but are obviously non-material: morality, good and evil, mind, propositions etc. 16 --> In the place of such objective truths, we see an anti-ethics of power, backed up by the power of persuasive rhetoric, manifested in subjectivism and relativism, that now wish to plead with us that subjective "purpose" is "meaningful." But, plainly (as we have seen step by step above), these are errors -- errors that we learned the bloody implications of across the C20, having refused to heed the warnings that many gave, including H G Wells. ____________ In short, we have again turned an important corner at UD, but one that is painful. For -- despite how painful it is to say or hear this -- it is now manifest that evolutionary materialism is in gross error on the nature and reality of morality, leading to an anti-ethics of power and rhetorical manipulation. One that all too recent -- and as yet unfinished -- history tells us is very, very dangerous. So, will we learn from it, or are we doomed to repeat it; with but minor variations? (E.g. what of the ongoing 48+ millions deep abortion holocaust . . . ? Assisted suicide? Involuntary euthanasia, first of the paralysed or comatose or uncommunicative, but then later on . . . ?) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 28, 2009
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Onlookers: Let us observe as members of the proverbial peanut gallery (MF "does not understand" and "will not read" or discuss the remarks of the undersigned . . . but, that does not prevent us onlookers from doing so, on or off line ): ______________ MF, 141: I don’t know that many materialists would claim that rape is objectively wrong (presumably only those that believe in objective morals). They just claim it is wrong. SB, 145: On the one hand, the materialist cannot assert that the rape act is objectively wrong. On the other hand, he holds that it is, nevertheless, “wrong.” So, the contradiction is complete: Rape is both wrong and not wrong . . . . the materialist cannot logically believe in objective morality for the obvious reason that morality is non-material. While there is no escape from this difficulty, there is a reasonable alternative. Truth, justice, purpose, morality, unity, being, beauty, goodness and other non-material realities do exist. Truth is not hard to find, it is hard to face, harder yet to follow. That is the problem with the materialist. MF, 146: The whole point of discussion for the last 20 or so comments has been about how a non-objective morality based on human nature can be powerful and meaningful. You may not agree but to simply announce that “therefore rape is both wrong and not wrong” is just to assume your case is obviously true and ignore everything that has gone before. Now answer me a simple question. Suppose moral goodness is a non-material reality. Why do morally good things? __________________ 1 --> What -- per 141 -- is the difference between "objectively wrong" and merely simply "wrong"? According to MF @ 146: "a non-objective morality based on human nature can be powerful and meaningful . . ." 2 --> In short, we see an anti-ethics of power or at best persuasion. 3 --> So, per materialist worldview premises, there is no ought, just an is: your or my subjective preferences -- claimed to be "human nature" [but is not a nature an essence, i.e. also just as immaterial as objective moral truth?] -- backed up by who has the rhetorical or physical power to get his or her way. 4 --> Also, it sems to me that most of the rhetorical force of MF's "wrong" as opposed to "objectively wrong" traces to the objective connotation of "wrong." 5 --> So, also, the meaning of "objective" is in contention. Classically, objective truths are those we discover rather than merely perceive, imagine or create, i.e they are independent of the individual person and his/her preferences or perceptions. 6 --> Or, echoing Josiah Royce, they are the truths we can be in error about when we face key objective truth no 1: "error exists." (If one tries to deny this truth, s/he simply instantiates an error [whether by being mistaken or by implying that KT no 1 is error makes but little difference], confirming its truthfulness.) 7 --> So, objective truth exists, though we can be mistaken about it; it is independent of our state of mind or opinion, and is discoverable. Such truth being "that which says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not." [FYI Rob: Ari, Metaphysics 1011b, paraphrased.] 8 --> Similarly, morality is in contention. So, Stanford enc of phil:
The term “morality” can be used either 1. descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or, a. some other group, such as a religion, or b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or 2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons. What “morality” is taken to refer to plays a crucial, although often unacknowledged, role in formulating ethical theories. To take “morality” to refer [exclusively] to an actually existing code of conduct put forward by a society results in a denial that there is a universal morality, one that applies to all human beings.
[ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 28, 2009
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#144 EricB I think I undestand you. You are concerned that modern evolutionary theory means it is silly to expect all people to behave and be treated the same way. So morality is not universal. It seems me that most creationists/IDers believe that people are genetically different - even if they disagree about how they got that way. So they have the same problem. People are different and cannot help being different - however they got that way. So is it rational to apply the same moral principles to all of them. Why should some not be privileged? It is testing moral question. But it is not unique to those who believe in current evolutionary theory.Mark Frank
February 27, 2009
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#145 StephenB On the one hand, the materialist cannot assert that the rape act is objectively wrong. On the other hand, he holds that it is, neverthelss, “wrong.” So, the contradiction is complete: Rape is both wrong and not wrong. I am beginning to despair. The whole point of discussion for the last 20 or so comments has been about how a non-objective morality based on human nature can be powerful and meaningful. You may not agree but to simply announce that "therefore rape is both wrong and not wrong" is just to assume your case is obviously true and ignore everything that has gone before. Now answer me a simple question. Suppose moral goodness is a non-material reality. Why do morally good things?Mark Frank
February 27, 2009
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----Mark: "I don’t know that many materialists would claim that rape is objectively wrong (presumably only those that believe in objective morals). They just claim it is wrong." Onlookers, this paragraph serves as well as anything to illustrate the difficulty of trying to integrate morality with materialism. On the one hand, the materialist cannot assert that the rape act is objectively wrong. On the other hand, he holds that it is, neverthelss, "wrong." So, the contradiction is complete: Rape is both wrong and not wrong. Also, notice the phrase ......("presumably only those [materialists]that believe in objective morals"). As it turns out, the materialist cannot logically believe in objective morality for the obvious reason that morality is non-material. While there is no escapte from this difficulty, there is a reasonable altermative. Truth, justice, purpose, morality, unity, being, beauty, goodness and other non-material realities do exist. Truth is not hard to find, it is hard to face, harder yet to follow. That is the problem with the materialist.StephenB
February 27, 2009
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Mark Frank, I have a bit more time to clear up some misunderstandings. You said:
It seems to me you have described a well known problem of free will and responsibility. If it is in our nature/genes to do something then are we responsible for doing it? It is fairly interesting problem - but it is equally a problem whether you acquired those genes through RM+NS or designer implant. It is nothing much to do with Darwinism.
The problem I am describing is not one about freedom. It is not about ability. I am not questioning whether the rapist could stop raping or whether the superior race could stop pushing inferior races toward extinction. Assume that both are possible, even within Darwinian materialism. The question is whether it makes sense or nonsense within Darwinian materialism to say to everyone who does not have evolved feature X, "You *ought* to have X." Expecting that all members of a species *ought* to be the same or to exhibit the same behavior seems utterly foreign, even contrary, to the perspective of Darwinian materialism. If compassion is a real transcendent value that applies to all humans, then it makes sense to expect that humans ought to be or become compassionate. But that view is excluded by Darwinian materialism. If compassion is a product of unguided, mindless evolution, then compassion is one instance of X in the above paragraph, and expecting that all humans *ought* to exhibit it appears to be incoherent to Darwinian materialism. Or if you think otherwise, what about X as "monogamous" or some other value that materialists like to debunk as a necessary universal human value. To be plausible, the reasoning cannot be arbitrarily applied to one thing and not another. Or, in the case of the other matter (cf. Allen_MacNeill's attempt to avoid the implication in this very thread), please consider the last paragraph of my previous post. Where is the coherence of saying to the people who fulfill Darwinian predictions, “You ought not to do what we predict you will do.”? That is not a question of free will or determinism. It is a question about whether an expectation is coherent, given that the theory already (supposedly) indicates how life has always operated. Where does one find the "ought" that demands something else? How is that justified without stealing ideas and expectations from the culture of transcendent moral realism? Does that help distinguish my questions?ericB
February 27, 2009
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To Mark Frank, I have just seen post 141 (and not yet any others below it). It's my turn to have only a few minutes for an initial response before heading out. You have me beat -- I had only a minor in philosophy, at least two classes short of a major. Regarding some of your questions in 141, I think it may help you to understand if you distinguish between ontological concerns and epistemological concerns. The nature of wrong is that it is a discrepancy between two distinct things, ought and is. There is a separate question of how do we people come to understand in any setting what was the intended outcome, not just the actual outcome. It is objectively meaningful to say that there can be a discrepancy even if there are legitimate questions about how we can come to understand or know this with confidence. My only point in saying that is to emphasize they are two different questions, and to mix them together indistinguishably would only confuse matters. So the woman may not be able to explain the source of her feeling about the tree. Nevertheless, the feeling of wrong is a contrast between what is happening (the tree is being cut down) and what ought to happen (the tree should be allowed to remain standing). Your example is completely in line with my definition. Regarding rape, "We have also evolved a sense of compassion." Who has, exactly? If compassion is an evolved feature, we both know that it would be nonsense to insist that every member of a species "ought" to manifest every feature ever associated with that species. Some have compassion. Others do not. If those that do not have compassion do not act compassionately, how do we justifiably claim, "Well, they ought to."? To take a perhaps even better example, notice how Allen_MacNeill every now and then will offer a stock response that works hard to attempt to separate Darwin's predictions based on Darwinism and Darwin's personal preferences. It would seem that there is something shameful about owning up to the predictions of Darwinism. But consider the following. Consider the distinct values of those who, as a superior race march forward to fulfill those predictions, with the consequence that inferior races are pushed toward extinction. Darwin's theory expects this. Where and how does the Darwinist insert "But this isn't what ought to happen."? And if he cannot insert that into the theory, where is the coherence of saying to the people who carry it out, "You ought not to do what we predict you will do."?ericB
February 27, 2009
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Re Mark: Eric showed that we make an objective decision that something is wrong -- e.g. a flubbed line in a play -- relative to a purposeful context. This is not at all parallel to it FELLS subjectively wrong to see a tree cut down. [And, even in that context, there is an implicit assumption that the purpose of a tree is to live not be cut down just for convenience or fun etc.] And, there is a reason why purpose is seen as a final cause, not an opening to an infinite regress. [All chains of reasoning are open to infinite regress in principle, we terminate at final points that we accept as plausibly true or valid.] And if you as a materialist say:
I don’t know that many materialists would claim that rape is objectively wrong (presumably only those that believe in objective morals). They just claim it is wrong.
. . . then that tells us a lot. Similarly: If it is in our nature/genes to do something then are we responsible for doing it? It is fairly interesting problem - but it is equally a problem whether you acquired those genes through RM+NS or designer implant. . . . tells us that M seems to think that we are the playthings of our genes etc, not responsible decision-makers. Which of course cuts clean across our world of moral choice and experience. It is underscored that evolutionary materialism leads to a serious difficulty with the anti-ethics of power. As has already been pointed out. But, that is not to be taken in the context that such materialism is well-established and so we have to live with its consequences. Far to the contrary:
. . . [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . . In Law, Government, and Public Policy, the same bitter seed has shot up the idea that "Right" and "Wrong" are simply arbitrary social conventions. This has often led to the adoption of hypocritical, inconsistent, futile and self-destructive public policies.
So, the root issue is whether we are seeing here a reductio ad absurdum not only on morals but on mind too. unless the materialists can show how they avert this problem, we can safely take their position as self-referentially absurd and thus false. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 27, 2009
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Ericb I reread #134 several times but I am still not sure what you are getting at. I can pick out elements I understand. ---------- So you decide whether something is wrong by comparing it to a standard. Although this is sometimes the case it doesn’t seem plausible as a general account of right and wrong. 1) We often judge specific instances without reference to a standard. “I saw someone cutting down a wonderful old tree and it just felt wrong to me”. 2) Whatever standard is invoked we still have to assess as to whether that standard is right or wrong. So right and wrong cannot be defined as meeting a standard or we would have infinite regress. ---- I would have thought that hardly anyone of any persuasion would judge the course of the history of life as right or wrong. Most of it happened before there were any eukaryotes, much less people. So who would be responsible? God? ---- The problem I am raising is the apparent inconsistency in which materialists will on the one hand deny there is any objective standard for right and wrong (no objective “ought”) — this much is consistent. But then on the other hand, I have seen some take great offense, for example, at the suggestion that the Darwinian materialist paradigm eliminates the possibility of saying rape is objectively wrong. Yet, within Darwinian materialism, rape is also necessarily a product of the evolutionary process — exactly as is any cruel behavior that Darwin found repulsive and used as motivation toward his views. I don't know that many materialists would claim that rape is objectively wrong (presumably only those that believe in objective morals). They just claim it is wrong. The sex drive that, combined with environmental factors, lead to rape may well be the result of the fitness advantage of a strong sex drive. (Actually I am not sure that rape is the result of sex drive - but let's assume it is). I don't see why that makes it less wrong. We have also evolved a sense of compassion. Does that make it less right? It seems to me you have described a well known problem of free will and responsibility. If it is in our nature/genes to do something then are we responsible for doing it? It is fairly interesting problem - but it is equally a problem whether you acquired those genes through RM+NS or designer implant. It is nothing much to do with Darwinism.Mark Frank
February 26, 2009
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----Mark: "You said morality based on personal feelings always leads to conflict (you even put it in uppercase). Listing examples does not establish that it always leads to conflict. After all moralities based on Christianity - which presumably you take to be objective - sometimes lead to conflict. In countries such as Sweden and Denmark where there is a high proportion of atheism there are many, many examples of agreement on moral issues." Well, we know that isn't the case don't we. I showed you very clearly WHY subjectivism leads to conflict. When everyone invents his own morality, then everyone has a different morality and that leads to conflict. Even if you will not acknowledge that fact, onlookers can see the point clearly. The natural moral law is not based on Christianity, so I don't know why you raise that issue. With regard to atheists, they have no morality, which is what leads to subjectivism, which, in turn, leads to conflict, which leads to tyranny. Meanwhile, it is not possible for someone to be good and moral while, at the same time, rejecting goodness and morality. So, if atheists are moral, they do so on the basis of someone else's moral standard. If you think atheism has a universal moral code of its own (and a metaphysical foundation that can justify it), you are encouraged to present it now. ----"I don’t think that your position is morally wrong! I just think you misunderstand the nature of morality and therefore incorrectly believe that materialists are inconsistent. Your are objectively mistaken about the nature of morality - but that is not in itself a morally wrong thing to do. It is not your fault." You believe that my position is wrong in the sense of being incorrect. We are, after all, having a disagreement. Truth and morality are related because morality is based on truth.(I understand that you have rejected that point as well, but it still holds). Materialism doesn't just deny objective morality, it denies objective truth. You have no rational standard by which you can assert that anyone's position on morality or any other subject is untrue, because you don't believe that there is any such thing as truth. So, to be consistent, you must say that we are both right. Obviously, you don't believe that or you wouldn't have argued against my position for so long. You are defending your conception of the truth even though your metaphysical code holds that there is no truth to defend. It is not I who misunderstands materialism.StephenB
February 26, 2009
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6 --> On this view too, rights are not the accident of power plays and rhetoric across time in a culture, but are just claims we make on others to be respected as being made in God's image and made to find fulfillment in a calling under God. That is, duties, justice and rights are inextricably intertwined with our fundamental equality as made in God's image and towards his purposes for our best fulfillment. 7 --> Compare, as C S Lewis was fond of saying, to how we quarrel -- by appealing to just such a known or knowable [i.e. objective] standard, and the response to that is as a rule not "so what: me is cat and you is rat - yuh 'ent nutten but lunch!" 8 --> That is, the commonplace facts of moral conflict from ~ 18 months of age up are utterly consistent with the Judaeo-Christian theistic view that morality is objective, knowable and as to core a commonplace of knowledge. 9 --> To this ethics of fundamental equality and resulting mutual duty, we can contrast the picture drawn out by H G Wells in 1898, and as underpinned by Darwin's own Descent of Man, then sadly worked out over the next decades: fundamental inequality tracing to one's inheritance as the engine of progress, with survival of the fittest by the passive or active -- subtle or blatant -- culling of the "unfit," i.e. "inferior." (To me, this seems frankly to be at core an anti-ethics of power, not an ethics, and only restrained by the counsels of prudence in regard to the lessons of the last major slaughter or two; but then, doubtless that would be brushed aside as just my perception. And in deed, relegation of ethical concerns to subjectivism, relativism and rhetorism smacks of anti-ethics, nihilism in all but outright name, or at best a struggle not to fall into that.) 10 --> Now, theistic ethics faces two classic challenges. First, as H G Wells pointed out in War of the Worlds, that in many quarters, it is thought that the "scientific" view of the world establishes materialism, so like or lump it, we must live with it best as we can. (But in fact Lewontinian materialism is plainly an a priori imposition on science, not a well warranted conclusion from origins science.) 11 --> The second, deeper, challenge is the problem of evil. How can the reality of evil be held compatible with the existence of a good God? Again, this raises two points. 12 --> First, the strong form of the argument, the logical argument from evil against God, is now known to be answered by Plantinga, and the inductive form is manageable in that light. 13 --> however, the passionate anger at evil raised by those who think it challenges the very existence of God, also has a subtler side. For, the objector thereby acknowledges the reality of evil. Which, as Koukl pointed out, does not sit very well with the worldview of evolutionary materialism. 14 --> For, evil is not a material entity, no moreso than good is, nor than number, truth or propositions are. And if there is a rhetorical retreat into seeing evil as merely a label for partifularly strong negative feelings [i.e. subjectivism and/or relativism], then it seems we are right back at the challenge of anti-ethics. ______________ So, which difficulties will we live with, why? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2009
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H'mm: Muy interesante: Re. MF, 137:"My first degree is in philosophy . . . " So we may freely infer from that, that he will have at least basic capacity to understand and assess the main arguments in this and other threads. But, let's stick to the main focus for this particular one -- evolutionary materialism and its ethical implications, which as MF makes quite plain, are along the lines of subjectivism and personal or cultural relativism and what we may call "rhetorism." [By that, I mean that his evident view is that the issue in ethical conflict is to persuade, not to warrant. (And he will be aware of why I use this instead of terms like "justify" or "demonstrate."] Now, SB and EricB are deeply concerned that such rhetorism is in effect an attempt to have the cake of objectivity [which is not quite the same as absolutes, i.e i reckon with Josiah Royce's key truth no 1: error exists], whilst enjoying the fruits of subjectivism and relativism anchored in materialism. So, how are we to find a way forward in the face of the evident "impasse"? 1 --> Let's start with the plurality of worldviews, all of which bristle with difficulties, and so that our best approach to worldviews and thus to ethical positions (a key component) is by comparative difficulties. [MF and SB, your remarks on the just linked would go a long way towards clarifying whether we have common ground for dialogue, and would be welcome.] 2 --> Now, the relevant key broad-brush live options are theism, materialism and pantheism, with the note involved that theism may focus on (a) the power of God to compel assent, or (b) on the reasonableness of what he may ask of us on ethics especially. Pantheism is important globally, but is not directly relevant save though implications of its inherent monism [which it shares with evolutionary materialism], to the issues we face; so I will focus. 3 --> Judaeo-Christian ethics emphasises the latter, e.g. in terms of Rom 2 & 13:
Rom 2: 3 . . . when you, a mere man, pass [moral] judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? . . . . 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger . . . . 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) . . . . Rom 13:8 . . . he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. [Of course we all struggle to live up to such a standard, and thereby hangs our need for a rescuing, reforming and transforming Saviour . . . ]
4 --> Or, as Locke cited Hooker on the golden rule as the foundation of just government and liberty in the community:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant. [Locke, citing Hooker in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of 2nd treatise on civil Gov't]
5 --> On this premise, ethics is objective, knowable -- in the sense of warranted, credibly true belief -- as a core to the ordinary man [regardless of his particular worldview], and is anchored to our being created equally in the image of God. Indeed, conscience is seen as the inner moral compass of God that, with reasonable care over thought, word and deed in light of putting ourselves in the other person's shoes, can usually lead us aright. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 26, 2009
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Ericb This time I have only 5 minutes. So I can only say that a) I continue to appreciate your polite and considered comments and I will respond. b) You are not slow on the uptake. This is a subtle and complex discussion (My first degree is in philosophy so I have a head start over you (unless you also have such a background))Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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Re #133 StephenB You said morality based on personal feelings always leads to conflict (you even put it in uppercase). Listing examples does not establish that it always leads to conflict. After all moralities based on Christianity - which presumably you take to be objective - sometimes lead to conflict. In countries such as Sweden and Denmark where there is a high proportion of atheism there are many, many examples of agreement on moral issues. I don't think that your position is morally wrong! I just think you misunderstand the nature of morality and therefore incorrectly believe that materialists are inconsistent. Your are objectively mistaken about the nature of morality - but that is not in itself a morally wrong thing to do. It is not your fault.Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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p.s. A couple specific clarifications for Mark Frank.
So you feel that “wrong” refers to a property - the wrongness of the act. ...
I don't consider "wrong" to be a property of the act or object or event in and of itself in isolation. As described in my post 134, it describes a comparison that finds a contrast or discrepancy between two things, i.e. between the actual and the intended outcomes, between what it is and what it ought to be. Thus, it is not a fact about the object itself, but it is a fact about the contrast with the ought. When there is no intention, no ought, then "right" and "wrong" are meaningless in that context. I believe we are in agreement about that, yes? If something is caused by a mindless, unguided process of nature, it simply is what it is. It would then be nonsense to say the outcome ought to have been otherwise. True?
... And when I deny that you conclude it must refer to my subjective feelings. Because it must refer to something.
My understanding came from your own references to "moral emotions" and later to "reaction" as in "I am expressing my reaction". These are subjective and not shared by all, as you acknowledged. I do understand that you consider these reactions to be informed / influenced by nature and nurture and how one believes others would react, if they had the same knowledge. [But which others? As an aside, I don't think you have yet dealt with the issue I raised concerning how this is changed by one's perspective, e.g. identifying with victim vs. with the victor, the one who benefits. From the human standpoint, there is no single, universal perspective for all people. Even with knowledge, the same event can admit equally valid but completely different reactions.] Did I miss your intended meaning? Thanks in advance for your patience, if I am just being particularly slow on the uptake.ericB
February 25, 2009
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Re: Mark Frank on the meaning of "wrong." Wrong is the discrepancy between two distinct things, namely the way something is and the way it ought to be. An actor has said the wrong lines when what he said differs from what is in the script. A musician has played the wrong notes when what she has played differs from the intentions of the composer. "Wrong" is possible if and only if there is the relevant creator has a defined intended outcome. In all such cases, a comparison is made. "Wrong" indicates discrepancy, while "right" indicates correspondence. The problem for materialism is that it gives one only what is, and it can never provide a distinct "the way it ought to be." Even if one says (by definition) that everything always is as it ought to be, you still do not have two distinct things to compare or contrast. Consequently, Darwinistic materialism, having only what is and never a distinct "ought to be," is inherently incapable of saying that anything about the course of the history of life is objectively wrong (and to their credit various materialists acknowledge this). This comes from understanding the course of the history of life as a mindless, purposeless, undirected natural process. There can be no "ought" for this that is distinct from whatever has actually happened. This doesn't exclude people from finding aspects of reality not as they like and having negative emotions related to this, just as animals may not be pleased about how their own role is going. However, dislike about something doesn't imply that anything has digressed from what it ought to be. They are distinct concepts. So I fully grant to you that there can be a whole world of competing preferences, along with a host of related reactions and emotions. But I would think that any attempt to merely redefine "wrong" in terms of competing preferences would be a dodge that hedges on the distinct meaning of "wrong." I don't claim you are trying to make such a dodge. I will simply say that, so far, it is not clear to me that you have pointed to anything that goes beyond the categories of competing preferences and their associated emotions or reactions. Have I missed something? If so, please clarify. The problem I am raising is the apparent inconsistency in which materialists will on the one hand deny there is any objective standard for right and wrong (no objective "ought") -- this much is consistent. But then on the other hand, I have seen some take great offense, for example, at the suggestion that the Darwinian materialist paradigm eliminates the possibility of saying rape is objectively wrong. Yet, within Darwinian materialism, rape is also necessarily a product of the evolutionary process -- exactly as is any cruel behavior that Darwin found repulsive and used as motivation toward his views. It seems that the materialists cannot consistently stomach their own tonic. But then, that is why I am asking materialists to speak to this, since I am viewing it from the outside.ericB
February 25, 2009
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-----Mark Frank: “I have personal involvement with an abortion situation. I am writing under my own name in a public forum. I will not respond any more on this particular subject. Please respect this.” OK. -----:Funnily enough I don’t come to this conclusion. Please show me. (Without objective morality as the final arbiter, personal moralities derived in context will always produce conflict).” One person derives a person morality based on personal feelings, while another person derives another personal morality based on personal feelings. Example 1---Student [A] believes it is OK to cheat on a test if he has been deprived in some way or another. Person [B] believes that it is not OK for person [A] to cheat on the test because he believes that he shouldn’t have to compete against a cheater who has an unfair advantage. This is called a “conflict.” Example 2 --- Person [A] (Me) thinks it’s OK to discuss abortion, person [B] (You) believes that it is not OK. That is a “conflict.” Personal moralities, insofar as they are unguided by an objective moral code, ALWAYS lead to conflict. How many millions of examples would you like? Also, you have yet to answer the big question: You think that your position is right and my position is wrong. Otherwise, you would not have issued this challenge in the first place. But if either truth or morality is subjective, then we are both right. So, why are you arguing with me if both of us are right? If, on the other hand, you are right and I am wrong, what universal standard of truth are you appealing to that will confirm you position and disconfirm my position? -----“I read it. (The Tao [natural moral law). It’s a list of moral instructions. So what? I don’t deny that all cultures share many of their morals. In fact that’s a major part of my thesis.” In the United States, during the 1940’s and 50’s, the majority accepted bigotry against blacks. Do you know what Martin Luther King said to that? He said that it didn’t matter what the majority thought. What mattered was that bigotry was wrong because it violated the “natural moral law.” Under those circumstances, would you have gone along with the majority? Further, we have not the small problem of the tyranny of the majority. What happens if 60% of the population decides that everyone over 80 must die? (We are headed in that direction right now). What happens if 51% of the population wants to be kept by the other 49% (We are almost there)StephenB
February 25, 2009
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“You introduced the film analogy as part of your argument, so I responded by explaining that the response to art is both a response to objective value and a person response unique to the individual. You are so used to putting everything in the subjective mode, that you misunderstood my application to your example. A piece of art cannot be “objectively” boring, of course, but it can objectively bad, which will cause many people to be bored by it.” I don’t happen to think art can be objectively bad. But I didn’t want to get bogged down in another thousand year old controversy. So I chose boring as an analogy. So I still don’t understand the application of what you wrote to my example. Perhaps you can try and explain it differently? What is it you are correcting about my analogy of boredom? “Once again, you miss the application of the principle and you ignore the critical point. You once accused me of being rude, and I may well have been guilty. However, your appeal pointed to an objective standard of justice to which rudeness was a violation. On the one hand, you say there are no objective moral norms; on the other hand, you say I violated one. It is clear now?” I can’t remember the example but if I wrote that and meant it – then I doubt I pointed to any objective standard. My belief was that other people, including you, would also agree that it was rude if certain aspects of what you wrote were pointed out. I might have found they did not agree. In that case I could do no more than say “that’s what I think”. Is that clear now? “I am sorry I gave that impression [that {StephenB} is going from an “is” to an “ought to.” (where?). I don’t think it is possible to go from “is” to “ought”. But I don’t think moral statements are statements of fact. So we are not going from an “is” to an “is”. We have a real problem bridging the gap. Which is why we have to assume some kind of underlying moral feelings.” “You did it early on, [appeal to the “is,” “ought” problem] and you are doing it again here in your last correspondence Here is what you wrote: Mark Frank –“I can do a lot to persuade this chap that baby torture is wrong and that I am not guilty of a hate crime. I can find inconsistencies in his position. I can try to get him to imagine how much the babies will suffer. I can point to some of the consequences of baby torture that he had not thought of. But in the end I cannot make a logically incontrovertable case unless he has some moral feelings. I cannot derive what he ought to do simply from what is. I have to find something that he thinks people ought to do.” So, can we please dispense with this “is,” “ought-to” business once and for all.” This is utterly bizarre. The paragraph you quote is me arguing that you cannot derive an “ought” from an “is”. You use it to claim that I am saying that morality is a case of deriving an “is” from an “is”. I truly cannot see how you can interpret it that way?????? “The last few times I raised that issue to a moral relativist, they gave me the same answer almost word for word. In fact, the moral relativist cannot come face to face with his own principles. Nor does he even believe them. You clearly believe in objective truth, but you don’t recognize your self-contradictory position. If you really believed that truth doesn’t exist, you would not tell me I am wrong. You would say that we are both right.” I have personal involvement with an abortion situation. I am writing under my own name in a public forum. I will not respond any more on this particular subject. Please respect this. “OK, make it “DEEP sentiment and DEEPLY” personal preferences. Please! It is still based on feeling. Either one accepts the rationality of the objective moral law or one is reduced to relying on one’s feelings. If you think things through, you will realize that subjective morality leads to a “war of all against all.” Without objective morality as the final arbiter, personal moralities derived in context will always produce conflict.” Funnily enough I don’t come to this conclusion. Please show me. “All that you have told me so far is that morals are personal and based on feelings. That is not an objective source; it is a subjective source, which is no source at all. That is like saying we are all our own source of morality, which is exactly what you are saying.” For the umpteenth time. A subjective source is a source. A source which is based on deep, shared, aspects of human nature. Thus human nature is the source of morality. . “Can you give me an example of a “bad” action or an “evil” action? If morality is subjective, then I can simply call it good and we have a stand off. Who or what will arbitrate our disagreement? Please think carefully about this.” I think mass murder is bad. If you call it good you will be truly out of step with almost all humans. As I have indicated I can use lots of arguments to try and bring you to my point of view. But if in the end you still believe it to be good thing – then you are right - we have a stand off. That is my point! “Yes, I know. You think morality is a matter of personal taste, which is why you offered the example about films. In all seriousness, you really do need to Google “Illustrations of the Tao.” Please do that and get back to me” I read it. It’s a list of moral instructions. So what? I don’t deny that all cultures share many of their morals. In fact that’s a major part of my thesis.Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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-----Mark Frank: “You make these assertions without any supporting argument or evidence. They are all philosophical controversies which have been going on for millenia. That’s why I did not talk about the film being beautiful or artistic but stuck to the more prosaic “boring”. As far as I know there is no theory that boringness is some kind of transcendental property.” You introduced the film analogy as part of your argument, so I responded by explaining that the response to art is both a response to objective value and a person response unique to the individual. You are so used to putting everything in the subjective mode, that you misunderstood my application to your example. A piece of art cannot be “objectively” boring, of course, but it can objectively bad, which will cause many people to be bored by it. -----“You argue from “there is no objective property - good” to conclude “there is no rational justification for any good act”. That’s a fallacy. There is no objective property “boringness”. But there is plenty of rational justification for avoiding films which are generally perceived as boring.” Once again, you miss the application of the principle and you ignore the critical point. You once accused me of being rude, and I may well have been guilty. However, your appeal pointed to an objective standard of justice to which rudeness was a violation. On the one hand, you say there are no objective moral norms; on the other hand, you say I violated one. It is clear now? -----“I am sorry I gave that impression [that {StephenB} is going from an “is” to an “ought to.” (where?). I don’t think it is possible to go from “is” to “ought”. But I don’t think moral statements are statements of fact. So we are not going from an “is” to an “is”. We have a real problem bridging the gap. Which is why we have to assume some kind of underlying moral feelings.” You did it early on, [appeal to the “is,” “ought” problem] and you are doing it again here in your last correspondence Here is what you wrote: Mark Frank –“I can do a lot to persuade this chap that baby torture is wrong and that I am not guilty of a hate crime. I can find inconsistencies in his position. I can try to get him to imagine how much the babies will suffer. I can point to some of the consequences of baby torture that he had not thought of. But in the end I cannot make a logically incontrovertable case unless he has some moral feelings. I cannot derive what he ought to do simply from what is. I have to find something that he thinks people ought to do.” So, can we please dispense with this “is,” “ought-to” business once and for all. -----“Actually I just didn’t respond (On abortion). I have personal reasons for avoiding this particular issue.” The last few times I raised that issue to a moral relativist, they gave me the same answer almost word for word. In fact, the moral relativist cannot come face to face with his own principles. Nor does he even believe them. You clearly believe in objective truth, but you don’t recognize your self-contradictory position. If you really believed that truth doesn’t exist, you would not tell me I am wrong. You would say that we are both right. ----- “sentiment and personal preferences” makes it sound like ethical judgements are whimsical and idiosyncratic. They are in fact based on deep rooted feelings in the human psyche. You might as well say that the decision to care for your children is based on sentiment and personal preferences. Whether this leads to chaos is hard to say. I think that all ethical judgements are of this nature and not all societies are chaotic. So clearly I don’t agree." OK, make it “DEEP sentiment and DEEPLY” personal preferences. Please! It is still based on feeling. Either one accepts the rationality of the objective moral law or one is reduced to relying on one’s feelings. If you think things through, you will realize that subjective morality leads to a “war of all against all.” Without objective morality as the final arbiter, personal moralities derived in context will always produce conflict. -----“This is just a diatribe not an argument. Materialists have moral standards. They are just rooted in different sources – as explained above.” All that you have told me so far is that morals are personal and based on feelings. That is not an objective source; it is a subjective source, which is no source at all. That is like saying we are all our own source of morality, which is exactly what you are saying. . ----“I am not sure if I can think of any more ways to explain this. I do think things are good and bad.” Can you give me an example of a “bad” action or an “evil” action? If morality is subjective, then I can simply call it good and we have a stand off. Who or what will arbitrate our disagreement? Please think carefully about this. ----“When I do it I am expressing my personal attitude to that thing underpinned by my belief that others will see it the same way. I am not talking about some kind of pretend goodness. I am not under an illusion. It was I mean by good and bad. It is very similar to when I say that a film is boring.” Yes, I know. You think morality is a matter of personal taste, which is why you offered the example about films. In all seriousness, you really do need to Google “Illustrations of the Tao.” Please do that and get back to me.StephenB
February 25, 2009
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H'mm: While we wait for Stephen's reply . . . This, courtesy Arthur F Holmes, is what is at stake:
However we may define the good, however well we may calculate consequences, to whatever extent we may or may not desire certain consequences, none of this of itself implies any obligation of command. That something is or will be does not imply that we ought to seek it. We can never derive an “ought” from a premised “is” unless the ought is somehow already contained in the premise [Just as Stephen pointed out several times above] . . . . R. M. Hare . . . raises the same point. Most theories, he argues, simply fail to account for the ought that commands us [factual inadequacy, a key and in this case even vital worldview test]: subjectivism reduces imperatives to statements about subjective states, egoism and utilitarianism reduce them to statements about consequences, emotivism simply rejects them because they are not empirically verifiable, and determinism reduces them to causes rather than commands . . . . Elizabeth Anscombe’s point is well made. We have a problem introducing the ought into ethics unless, as she argues, we are morally obligated by law – not a socially imposed law, ultimately, but divine law . . . . This is precisely the problem with modern ethical theory in the West . . . it has lost the binding force of divine commandments . . . . If we admit that we all equally have the right to be treated as persons, then it follows that we have the duty to respect one another accordingly. Rights bring correlative duties: my rights . . . imply that you ought to respect these rights.[Ethics: Approaching Moral Decisions (Downers Grove, IL: 1984), pp. 70 – 72, 81. ]
So, let us be very, very careful indeed, before we accept any worldview that implies that rights are little more than conventions secured by personal or collective power. Especially, as it is an easily observed fact of life that we do understand ourselves to be morally bound by "ought" -- just think about how we expect each other to behave, as revealed by quarrelling. Not even the materialist, in the end, can live differently than that, yet again revealing its incoherence as a worldview. GEM of TKI PS: here is my own introductory level discussion for those long-suffering students of a few years back.kairosfocus
February 25, 2009
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