Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Debunking The Old “There Is No Evidence of God” Canard

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Recently some of our opponents have trotted out the old, long-since debunked, unsupportable universal claim “there is no evidence of God”. Let me illustrate how this is just another emotionally-addicted, rhetorical maxim atheists cling to without any real thought in the matter.

Facts, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence : a true piece of information”. According to Wiki, a scientific fact is: an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.”

Merriam Webster says the evidence is

“something which shows that something else exists or is true”.

Obviously, “something else” is not directly observable as a fact, or else one wouldn’t need evidence for it.

Wiki says that scientific evidence is

That which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.

People that claim to “go where the evidence leads” are fundamentally missing the fact that without an interpretive expectation, facts don’t lead anywhere. They are just brute facts that stand alone without any theoretical associations.

Theories explain or interpret facts, describing their place in a contextual framework.  Facts, when thusly interpreted, support or contradict those theories. Facts do not come with interpretations or conceptual frameworks. Interpretations exist in the mind of the individual considering a fact. Without a framework that contextualizes the facts in a system of expectations and meaning, facts are just brute sensory data. Facts don’t “lead” anwhere; they only lead where interpretations, intuition, logic or insight can support and understand them. Language itself categorizes the expression of facts into a systematic framework of expectations.

We expect facts to make sense within a consistent and reliable framework of coherent, causal space-time (an interpretive framework). We expect to find recognizable patterns. We expect our environment to have an understandable quality about it. We expect that we can make models that will not only explain facts, but predict them as well. We replace old models with ones that better explain and predict facts in a practical, useful manner.

What does it mean to say: “There is no evidence of god”, when any number of empirical facts can be interpreted favorably towards the existence of a god as commonly referred to as a supremely intelligent creator of the universe and source of goodness and moral law? Setting aside logical and moral arguments, personal experience, testimony and anecdote (all of which count as forms of evidence as I previously wrote about here), if one has a hypothesis that such a god exists, how can it be reasonable for atheists to claim that no physical facts can be interpreted to support the existence of that kind of god? Of course they can – billions do it every day.

Atheists do not have a copyright on how facts can be reasonably interpreted.  Much of the successful heuristic of modern science was founded entirely upon theistic expectations of a rationally understandable universe, metaphysical laws that governed the universe, and a god that favored elegance, efficiency and beauty.  They often referred to their scientific work as uncovering the mind of God.

Simply put, the atheist interprets certain sets of facts according to the expectation “there is no god”. The theist interprets those facts in light of the hypothesis that there is a god. Just because the atheist doesn’t consider the god hypothesis doesn’t mean that facts cannot be intepreted to support that hypothesis.

Take for instance the fine-tuning facts. Each of those force/material constants are facts. Scores of them appear to be fine-tuned for the existence of a universe that can support life. Take also for instance the advanced nano-technology of living cells. These facts can certainly be supportive of the hypothesis that an intelligent, creative god designed the universe and life. Now, throw in the logical arguments, anecdotes and the testimony of billions of people for thousands of years; it is a blatantly false lie or sheer denial to claim that there is “no” evidence for a god of some sort, when the term “evidence” means, among other things, an interpretation of facts that support a theory or hypothesis.  Evidence can also mean testimony; it can refer to circumstantial or anecdotal evidence; it can refer to logical, rational arguments in support of an assertion.

I’ve come to view many anti-ID advocates as having profound psychological resistance to anything that remotely points to the existence of a god of some sort. This cathexis seems to be a deep-rooted hostility towards the god concept in general that generates an almost hypnotic form of neuro-linguistic programming where they cannot see what is before them, and also leads them to see things that are not there.

Atheists/physicalists often talk about “believing what the evidence dictates”, but fail to understand that “evidence” is an interpretation of facts. Facts don’t “lead” anywhere in and of themselves; they carry with them no conceptual framework that dictates how they “should” fit into any hypothesis or pattern. Even the language by which one describes a fact necessarily frames that fact in a certain conceptual framework that may be counterproductive.

Atheists first preclude “god” from being an acceptable hypothesis, and then say “there is no evidence of god”. Well, Duh. The only way there could be evidence of god is if you first accept it as a hypothesis by which one interprets or explains facts.

“God” is a perfectly good hypothesis for explaining many facts especially in light of supporting testimonial, anecdotal, logical and circumstatial evidences. When an atheist says “there is no evidence for god”, what they are really saying (but are psychologically blind to it) is: There is no god, so there cannot be evidence for it. Their conclusion comes first, and so no evidence – in their mind, irrationally – can exist for that which does not – cannot – exist.

There is evidence that all sorts of things are true or exist; that doesn’t mean they actually exist, or are actually true – just that some facts can be interpreted to support the theory. To claim “there is no evidence for god” is absurd; atheists may not be convinced by the evidence, and they may not interpret the evidence in light of a “god hypothesis”. But to claim it is not evidence at all reveals uncompromising ideological denial. If one cannot even admit that there is evidence of god for those who interpret facts from that hypothesis, they cannot be reasoned with.

Comments
seversky said:
As for using an argument like Reppert’s to triumphantly proclaim the failure to solve the hard problem yet it founders on the hard reality that physical damage to the brain can alter consciousness and destruction of the brain ends it irreversibly. That is also left on the table unanswered.
Here's your answer: correlation is not causation. It has not been shown that destroying the brain ends that consciousness irreversible. It has only shown that destroying the brain ends that body's capacity for displaying that consciousness.William J Murray
June 17, 2016
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kairosfocus @ 146
More significantly, the issue that evolutionary materialists need to soundly address before anyone should take their arguments seriously, is still there, left on the table by Reppert:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
I think it is becoming quite clear that there is no cogent answer, or else it would have long since been triumphantly announced.
In case you and Reppert haven't noticed, we have acknowledged the existence of the Hard Problem of Consciousness, of how to map the experiences of the conscious mind to the chemical and electrical activity of the brain. Not that there hasn't been some progress. We now have some understanding of how the visual and motor cortices work, for example, and deep electrical stimulation of the brain has elicited a range of subjective sensations and emotions in volunteers. As for using an argument like Reppert's to triumphantly proclaim the failure to solve the hard problem yet it founders on the hard reality that physical damage to the brain can alter consciousness and destruction of the brain ends it irreversibly. That is also left on the table unanswered.Seversky
June 17, 2016
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SS said:
I said that claims about deities vary wildly. There are so many contradictory claims that none have credibility; at least not unless some deity shows up and sorts them out. That has never happened to my knowledge.
Just because claims about a thing vary wildly or are contradictory doesn't mean that none of the claims have credibility; nor does it mean that none of the claims are logically valid; nor does it mean that all of the evidence for each claim is categorically equal. That's a completely irrational non sequitur. But, this is the kind of "logic" produced by anti-theistic hyperskepticism and denial.William J Murray
June 17, 2016
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[Stop trolling my thread, GC. - WJM]Gordon Cunningham
June 17, 2016
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BTW, notice the unanswered force of the basic, standalone point? That is:
Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it
Strikes me, there's som'at in that. Something, we need to bear in mind rather than rhetorically run over and leave in the fading rearview mirror's distance. Which of course simply -- inadvertently -- underscores the point. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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Sean samis You don't need to see deity "face to face". Wise person should be able to recognize Architect's work without seeing Him. "A skilled craftsman leaves no traces." -Lao-Tzu.Eugen
June 17, 2016
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PS: I see all sorts of remarks about how rude I have been etc. Those are uncalled for and over the top. If you pause to look you will see that I have spoken to a general problem and process that I have experience of dealing with as taking people captive to destructive ideologies and sects. With all respect, you seem to have unduly reacted to a general warning on the danger and power of indoctrination and polarisation. Which I have literally seen come down to small scale civil war.kairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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GC, First, I spoke to a specific, striking remark that is worth commenting on in its own right. Second, I have consistently pointed to a framework for worldview warranting on comparative difficulties. Which, you do not seem to have ever cogently addressed. Further to this I pointed to a highly relevant challenge to evolutionary materialism which asks it to warrant the responsible freedom it assumes to argue on its premises. Absent such it fails the Reppert etc test and is self refuting, not to be taken seriously. None of these, have you cogently addressed. Third, above, you tried to falsely characterise me as claiming or implying that all who disagree with me are closed minded etc. This, I refuted. Which you do not seem willing to acknowledge. Fourth -- and this is a new point not previously in matters I have been speaking to, you now wish to raise a claim that Marfin raised an unjustified double standard of warrant when he challenged:
135 Marfin June 17, 2016 at 12:37 am Sean S. Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it,so Sean the universe a product of natural or supernatural events,seeing you see no evidence for God you must believe the natural did it, so please explain how the natural did it ,at this point please dont say I dont know or scientist say, please give me the evidence of how nature alone makes a universe and all it contains.If there is only two alternatives and you cannot give compelling evidence or proof for one , why is the other option so difficult for you.
This is actually an identification of a likely worldview being argued for and request to bring forth factual adequacy and explanatory adequacy in a causal context. This is in fact wholly legitimate and falls under the comparative difficulties triple-test of worldview analysis: factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power. I disagree that there are only two live option worldviews, but otherwise the issue is quite unexceptional. My own challenge via Reppert is coherence, any view being argued for should be compatible with responsible rational freedom as a premise for argument. Evolutionary materialism (a term that is much more descriptively accurate and specific than "naturalism") is severely challenged on this. Marfin's point is that in effect things like panentheism or pantheism can be set to one side and the fundamental issue is some form of theism vs evolutionary materialism. So, on what basis does the latter get us to an adequate account of our world, presumably including accounting for apparently morally governed, responsibly and rationally free individuals such as those arguing in this thread. Ethical theism's answer is: the inherently good and ultimately intelligent creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the service of doing the good in accord with our nature has made us in his image and has gifted us with responsible, rational freedom; leading to justice in community -- proper moral governance -- as the due balance of resulting rights, freedoms and responsibilities thus providing proper stewardship of our common community, civilisation and world that promotes our thriving and that of creation as a whole. (Yes, deeply compressed, but expandable in great detail; every one of the key terms is loaded with underlying content capable of being drawn out.) The answer of evolutionary materialism is: _______ ? (Recall, this is in effect a prequalifying question, if a view cannot ground responsible rational freedom its advocates cannot credibly sit to a table of serious rational argument based on freedom to weigh facts, reasoning, assumptions.) So, the onward no-fair objection fails while showing that first principles of moral government are inextricably entangled in debates on such matters. Evolutionary materialism also needs to ground moral government. Its basis is: ____________ ? The no fair objection fails. No, Marfin has simply highlighted facets of the comparative difficulties test facing all worldviews. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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KF: "GC, you are here speaking with disregard to the truth, in hope of profiting by what you have said or suggested being perceived as truth." KF, let's rewind the clock so that we have full context. Your response was in response to Marfin who said: "Sean S. Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it,so Sean the universe a product of natural or supernatural events,seeing you see no evidence for God you must believe the natural did it, so please explain how the natural did it ,at this point please dont say I dont know or scientist say, please give me the evidence of how nature alone makes a universe and all it contains.If there is only two alternatives and you cannot give compelling evidence or proof for one , why is the other option so difficult for you." In your response you only included Marfin's opening (in bold), completely ignoring the fact that he was demanding a burden of proof for naturalism that he doesn't demand for God-did-it. And to remind everyone of your response: "hence the sadly destructive power of the closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and too often polarised mind." So, unless you were implying that Sean Samis, who Marfin was responding to, is encumbered by a sadly destructive power of the closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and too often polarised mind., why would you make such a stupid and rude comment? Why don't you simply admit that you made an off-the-cuff thoughtless comment and apologize for it? GCGordon Cunningham
June 17, 2016
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Dr JDD; “You say you can’t trust the evidence for God because it assumes a theistic view first.” No. I didn’t say that. I said I can’t trust the evidence for deities because it comes from an unreliable source (humans) and cannot be tested or verified. “Secondly, you state that there are so many gods that this disproves God’s existence.” No, I didn’t say that. I said that claims about deities vary wildly. There are so many contradictory claims that none have credibility; at least not unless some deity shows up and sorts them out. That has never happened to my knowledge. sean s.sean samis
June 17, 2016
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Sean: You say you can't trust the evidence for God because it assumes a theistic view first. Yet that is what naturalism does too. Indifferent. There is an a priori commitment to naturalism - that is a premise of modern science. Secondly, you state that there are so many gods that this disproves God's existence. Well just like a scientific theory or mechanism there can be many people's theories to explain observations. Only 1 is probably true though. However you claim these cannot be tested. Then how do you imagine a court works when it cannot replicate a crime in the past? Do you have no faith in the justice system's ability to make correct decisions on past events? Do you haveno faith in historians and their ability to have a good grasp of what really may have occurred in the past even tthough you cannot replicate the past and test it? You really must have an uncertain and paranoid view of life. Test the claims of different faiths - I'm willing to bet you haven't done that seriously.Dr JDD
June 17, 2016
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There’s no rationale or justification for any other position. Lacking a direct encounter, there’s no verifiable evidence any deity exists. There’s no way to justify belief in the deity. The reasons are explained in #153; if that’s not clear enough for you, then the concept may be beyond your abilities. sean s.sean samis
June 17, 2016
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Barring some personal encounter with a deity, the reasonably unbiased person has good cause (“moral certainty”) to not adopt any opinion about deities beyond equitable skepticism.
Still waiting for some justification, some rationale, for this assertion. Silly of me, I'm sure.Mung
June 17, 2016
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“So the battle of world views is not really faith vs. reason, as Boghossian and other new atheists believe, but it’s a battle of faith vs. faith: faith in the infinite (God) vs. faith in the finite (man). Anyone who understands that understands that man, who is limited, finite and fallible cannot possibly win.” Unless one has had a direct, “face-to-face” encounter with a deity, everything one believes about deities came from some human’s unverifiable claims. Those who “believe in God” but who have never had such a “face-to-face” encounter are actually placing their faith in the claims of limited, finite, and fallible humans telling stories about their gods. If all human claims about deities were similar, then they’d be credible, but they vary wildly so they lack credibility. If the deity shows up and sorts them out for you, you’re exceptional. For the rest of us, these stories are deeply flawed and unreliable. So, unless you have had such an encounter with a deity, the battle is between faith in some human’s untrustworthy claims about deities vs. faith in the general ability of humans to reason. I’m on the side of reason, because I can examine someone’s reasoning and satisfy myself as to its rigor; but I cannot test someone’s deistic tale for accuracy. sean s.sean samis
June 17, 2016
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A few years ago in 2013 I had this brief exchange on-line with someone who identified himself as David P. He asked me if I would consider a world view that actively disagreed with my current Christian world view. Since David had already identified his own world view as naturalism, I told him that if he could prove to me “that naturalism was true, I would.” He replied, “If that is your condition, you are essentially saying “no”, because naturalism cannot be proven.” I responded by asking him, “So, on what basis are you warranted in believing in it?” That question prompted the following dialogue:
David wrote: “Believing that naturalism cannot be proven? Because we can only perceive a tiny part of the entire system. We may one day be able to formulate naturalistic theories that explain beautifully all that we perceive, but we cannot prove that that is all there is.” I asked: “So then, you accept naturalism by faith… Correct?” David replied: “I accept naturalism as a working assumption because of the evidence that it helps drive us to understand reality in a way that allows us to make increasingly better predictions. Also, the evidence that so many phenomena attributed to supernatural causes have turned out to have natural causes.”
Notice how David smuggled faith into his world view without calling it that. What I mean is that he is actually acting on the biblical definition of faith and he doesn’t even realize it. Let me prove it to you… Hebrews 11:3 says: “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.” Someone committed, like David, to naturalism is actually just modifying the verse so that it reads: “By faith we understand that the universe was formed [by some kind of mindless natural process], so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.” This thinking is also true of Peter Boghossian, though he is probably as ignorant of it as David is. So the battle of world views is not really faith vs. reason, as Boghossian and other new atheists believe, but it’s a battle of faith vs. faith: faith in the infinite (God) vs. faith in the finite (man). Anyone who understands that understands that man, who is limited, finite and fallible cannot possibly win.john_a_designer
June 17, 2016
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GC, you are here speaking with disregard to the truth, in hope of profiting by what you have said or suggested being perceived as truth. As I just added to 149 for clarity, Marfin spoke to a specific issue and I raised the implication on a specific fallacy -- which I have never ever said or implied by practice is a universal one on the part of people who happen to disagree with me; it is patent instead that I have stood foursquare on the premise that arguments stand on facts, logic and assumptions and it is to these we should go always. It is, however, a real problem and indeed there are people who become so caught up in falsities that truths look like foolishness to them. Worse, some are so polarised that they dismiss rather than evaluate contrary evidence, and it can reach the point where instead of saying the more truthful, I do not find the evidence here persuasive to me, they instead say in disregard to truth, there is no evidence. Further to all this, on matters of fact there is a question of comparative difficulties for cases and even worldviews, i/l/o inference to best warranted explanation. I have several times posed a context of such evaluation at worldviews level and have pointed to Greenleaf's sound counsels on evidence for forensic-historical moral evidence contexts. The reaction has been to try to personalise and polarise and that speaks volumes, as it is exactly the sort of evasion and/or dismissal of evidence that from the OP on this thread is about. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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KF, I doubled down because you have not addressed the question as to why you label anyone who disagrees with your views on god, evolution, materialism or subjective morality as having close minded, indoctrinated, ideologically driven minds. Please remember, it was you who made this claim.Gordon Cunningham
June 17, 2016
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GC, doubling down on the previous projection, in the face of my having again posed the comparative difficulties context for worldviews assessment. That is, the very basis on which indoctrination is broken. This shows the balance on merits. In support, I roll the tape from 138:
{Marfin:} Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it {KF:} hence the sadly destructive power of the closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and too often polarised mind.
Again, evolutionary materialists need to ground responsible rational freedom on their premises or else face the implication of a self referentially incoherent system that cannot even ground the ability to participate in a reasoned discussion. Reppert, again:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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KF: "Your projection attempt fails." That it fails to convince you is obvious. My words would never convince someone with a closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and too often polarised mind. But don't you find it strange that you always resort to this claim when debating those with different views than yours? It is obvious that when you fail to convince them of the errors of their ways with your evidence and logic, you explain it away by claiming that they are close minded or ideologically driven. Did it ever occur to you that the reason that you haven't been able to convince them of your viewpoint is because your arguments, although lengthy and verbose, and your evidence, are simply not convincing or well presented? Ps, that was a rhetorical question.Gordon Cunningham
June 17, 2016
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Marfin @ 141; All that stuff about the legal system is silly. Science does not mete out justice, assign blame or culpability, find innocence or guilt, punish the blameworthy or exonerate the innocent. Legal determinations and scientific findings are categorically different. It’s no surprise their rules and standards are different too. “As of today no one has ever witnessed life coming from non life,” ... Please tell me in detail how God created life from nonliving materials or nothing. I await your answer. Don’t forget you cannot call on evidence we may find in the future or have not found yet as you say that would be faith and wishful thinking, not science. Please also tell me in detail how we will validate your details. I await your answer. Don’t forget that explanations that cannot be validated are faith and wishful thinking, not science. Please also tell me in detail how God was created. I await your answer. Don’t forget that explanations that cannot be validated are faith and wishful thinking, not science. If you cannot answer these questions in detail, please tell me why I should not prefer the simplest idea: nature created life. We are more likely to figure that out than we are to figure out some unverifiable deity. Science, after all, is about figuring things out. sean s.sean samis
June 17, 2016
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GC, did you see the point that I took time to highlight how one may go through a comparative difficulties, worldviews assessment? As in, I put up the cure to such indoctrination? Your projection attempt fails. More significantly, the issue that evolutionary materialists need to soundly address before anyone should take their arguments seriously, is still there, left on the table by Reppert:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
I think it is becoming quite clear that there is no cogent answer, or else it would have long since been triumphantly announced. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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KF: "hence the sadly destructive power of the closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and too often polarised mind." What is even more sad is that you are willing to assign these characteristics to those who disagree with your viewpoint, often with over-th-top emotion, yet fail to see any of these characteristics in yourself. What are your attacks on evolution, materialis, and subjective morality, if not the result of a closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and polarized mind? I realize that these are hard words to hear, but sometimes they must be heard.Gordon Cunningham
June 17, 2016
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KF, I see. Makes a little more sense now.HeKS
June 17, 2016
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HeKS, I was trying to be supportive, as in Seversky's remark was failing the dictionary test. Pardon my lack of adequate context. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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KF @139 Hey KF, I'm not sure I understand your comment at 139 or why it was directed at me. Did you think the comment I made at 132 was in agreement with Seversky? It wasn't. I was suggesting that his comment was so silly that it was like he was a comedian and had just told a joke, so I was making the sound of the little rim shot drum fill after a punchline: ba-dum-ching! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHYiyv68q2o) HeKSHeKS
June 17, 2016
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Sean S . So Sean if the police arrest you drag you into court and tell the judge to lock you up and throw away the key, and the judge asks on what evidence and they say well we have not got the evidence YET but we know he is guilty, how does that work for you. You cannot use as evidence something as yet undiscovered its a nonsense, its a faith without evidence.So lets stick to science and the material world AND THE TESTABLE.As of today no one has ever witnessed life coming from non life, Pasteur showed life does not come from non life , no one has been able to make life in a lab,so based on this up to date scientific evidence I believe life and only life can bring forth life so I am standing on solid science,So please tell me in scientific detail how life arose from non living materials, I await your answer, and don`t forget you cannot call on evidence they may find in future or have not found YET as this is faith and wishful thinking not science.Marfin
June 17, 2016
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Marfin @ 135, the reason I prefer the natural explanation is Ockham’s Razor. You ask me to explain how “nature did it”; of course my answer can only be that we ultimately don’t yet know. Your response is something like “If there is [sic] only two alternatives and you cannot give compelling evidence or proof for one , why is the other option so difficult for you.” Because If I ask you how “God did it”, your answer can only be that you ultimately don’t know. That would seem to imply parity, except for two additional points: 1. If someone offers an explanation for how “nature did it” I know it is going to be testable eventually. 2. If someone offers an explanation for how “God did it” it will either be testable as a natural event eventually, or never testable at all. I lean toward the natural explanation because it’s simpler, because adding a deity to the mix adds nothing, and because I have no credible evidence that any deity exists. sean s.sean samis
June 17, 2016
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HeKS: Failing the Dictionary test . . . no authority is better than his or her facts, logic and assumptions, but that does not mean that automatically we may suspect or dismiss authorities to our convenience. Many Dictionary definitions are excellent, being informed by experts. And correct usage by experts is an excellent way to confirm the sense of a word. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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Marfin:
Evidence never looks compelling if you don`t engage with it
hence the sadly destructive power of the closed, indoctrinated, ideologically driven and too often polarised mind. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2016
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HeKS, WRT worldviews and their relationship to "proof", I was just watching this amusing video with witness testimony from Professor Ivor Grattan-Guinness — professor of the history of mathematics and logic — of the "Scole experiment". He testifies that he caught the lights in his hands, "they had mass". He felt them rebounding. When he opened his hands they flew off. Irrefutable proof of the spiritual? Not at all, according to the professor. It doesn't seem to cross his mind. Multiple Big Bang, co-present, parallel universe theory may explain it. The big problem is: "how do the dimensions interact?"Origenes
June 17, 2016
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