Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Debunking The Old “There Is No Evidence of God” Canard

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Recently some of our opponents have trotted out the old, long-since debunked, unsupportable universal claim “there is no evidence of God”. Let me illustrate how this is just another emotionally-addicted, rhetorical maxim atheists cling to without any real thought in the matter.

Facts, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence : a true piece of information”. According to Wiki, a scientific fact is: an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.”

Merriam Webster says the evidence is

“something which shows that something else exists or is true”.

Obviously, “something else” is not directly observable as a fact, or else one wouldn’t need evidence for it.

Wiki says that scientific evidence is

That which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.

People that claim to “go where the evidence leads” are fundamentally missing the fact that without an interpretive expectation, facts don’t lead anywhere. They are just brute facts that stand alone without any theoretical associations.

Theories explain or interpret facts, describing their place in a contextual framework.  Facts, when thusly interpreted, support or contradict those theories. Facts do not come with interpretations or conceptual frameworks. Interpretations exist in the mind of the individual considering a fact. Without a framework that contextualizes the facts in a system of expectations and meaning, facts are just brute sensory data. Facts don’t “lead” anwhere; they only lead where interpretations, intuition, logic or insight can support and understand them. Language itself categorizes the expression of facts into a systematic framework of expectations.

We expect facts to make sense within a consistent and reliable framework of coherent, causal space-time (an interpretive framework). We expect to find recognizable patterns. We expect our environment to have an understandable quality about it. We expect that we can make models that will not only explain facts, but predict them as well. We replace old models with ones that better explain and predict facts in a practical, useful manner.

What does it mean to say: “There is no evidence of god”, when any number of empirical facts can be interpreted favorably towards the existence of a god as commonly referred to as a supremely intelligent creator of the universe and source of goodness and moral law? Setting aside logical and moral arguments, personal experience, testimony and anecdote (all of which count as forms of evidence as I previously wrote about here), if one has a hypothesis that such a god exists, how can it be reasonable for atheists to claim that no physical facts can be interpreted to support the existence of that kind of god? Of course they can – billions do it every day.

Atheists do not have a copyright on how facts can be reasonably interpreted.  Much of the successful heuristic of modern science was founded entirely upon theistic expectations of a rationally understandable universe, metaphysical laws that governed the universe, and a god that favored elegance, efficiency and beauty.  They often referred to their scientific work as uncovering the mind of God.

Simply put, the atheist interprets certain sets of facts according to the expectation “there is no god”. The theist interprets those facts in light of the hypothesis that there is a god. Just because the atheist doesn’t consider the god hypothesis doesn’t mean that facts cannot be intepreted to support that hypothesis.

Take for instance the fine-tuning facts. Each of those force/material constants are facts. Scores of them appear to be fine-tuned for the existence of a universe that can support life. Take also for instance the advanced nano-technology of living cells. These facts can certainly be supportive of the hypothesis that an intelligent, creative god designed the universe and life. Now, throw in the logical arguments, anecdotes and the testimony of billions of people for thousands of years; it is a blatantly false lie or sheer denial to claim that there is “no” evidence for a god of some sort, when the term “evidence” means, among other things, an interpretation of facts that support a theory or hypothesis.  Evidence can also mean testimony; it can refer to circumstantial or anecdotal evidence; it can refer to logical, rational arguments in support of an assertion.

I’ve come to view many anti-ID advocates as having profound psychological resistance to anything that remotely points to the existence of a god of some sort. This cathexis seems to be a deep-rooted hostility towards the god concept in general that generates an almost hypnotic form of neuro-linguistic programming where they cannot see what is before them, and also leads them to see things that are not there.

Atheists/physicalists often talk about “believing what the evidence dictates”, but fail to understand that “evidence” is an interpretation of facts. Facts don’t “lead” anywhere in and of themselves; they carry with them no conceptual framework that dictates how they “should” fit into any hypothesis or pattern. Even the language by which one describes a fact necessarily frames that fact in a certain conceptual framework that may be counterproductive.

Atheists first preclude “god” from being an acceptable hypothesis, and then say “there is no evidence of god”. Well, Duh. The only way there could be evidence of god is if you first accept it as a hypothesis by which one interprets or explains facts.

“God” is a perfectly good hypothesis for explaining many facts especially in light of supporting testimonial, anecdotal, logical and circumstatial evidences. When an atheist says “there is no evidence for god”, what they are really saying (but are psychologically blind to it) is: There is no god, so there cannot be evidence for it. Their conclusion comes first, and so no evidence – in their mind, irrationally – can exist for that which does not – cannot – exist.

There is evidence that all sorts of things are true or exist; that doesn’t mean they actually exist, or are actually true – just that some facts can be interpreted to support the theory. To claim “there is no evidence for god” is absurd; atheists may not be convinced by the evidence, and they may not interpret the evidence in light of a “god hypothesis”. But to claim it is not evidence at all reveals uncompromising ideological denial. If one cannot even admit that there is evidence of god for those who interpret facts from that hypothesis, they cannot be reasoned with.

Comments
HeKS #99 Interesting story. Likely that particular second-hand copy of the book was somehow magically "charged" with strong malefic influences coming likely from the first owner and/or his environment. In any case one should pay attention to what he reads because just the content of the books -- their text -- can be support of any sort of influences, good or evil, on the reader. Something similar can be said for movies and any other information carrier.niwrad
June 16, 2016
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I didn't bother to read most of the above comments, just too many arguments. I'll just add my own two cents. The atheistic assertion that religion and the belief in God that that entails as just a manmade construct to keep the masses under control proposed by many founders of the murderous communist system as a vast conspiracy sounds very much like the Flat Earthers(FE). Same thing for the neo-Darwinian explanation for religion and never a good explanation against the idea that God may very well exist. I have in the last couple of weeks read some of the FE literature and it is pathetic. They assert the same kind of thing that atheists do, to wit, it is all made up to support so and so's agenda. The FE's use the Bible too as do so many weird cultish followers and of course all Christians are accused of the same nonsense. Then the abiogenesis crowd asserts that such and such type of a complicated molecule that they have absolutely no evidence for had to be like this or that and are always claiming "Science" is on their side. I always point them to Dr. James Tour's challenge to any chemist or biologist to come and explain to him just how life came from purely mechanistic processes or even a plausible one, he has had no takers, just attackers who never engage his science. To take crystals or formation of chaotic weather systems as proof that life can come from non-life is just personal beliefs making up the facts. Where are their physics to show their assertions? The exact thing they accuse ALL theists of doing. Hasn't any of them aware of their very human hypocrisy? If there is a vast conspiracy to do away with God it probably isn't originally inspired by mankind, yet still the "inspirer" found multitudes who are only too willing to follow his teachings. I hope it ends soon. "Even so, come Lord Jesus."jimmontg
June 16, 2016
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DaveS So water does not evolve into anything but hydrogen gas evolved into EVERYTHING.I know water does not evolve into anything the simpler elements do not evolve over time to become wine or ants, or elephants or people.Atheists cannot believe a man who was once alive then died can come back to life again but have no problem believing life can come from something that was never alive in the first place.Once again its a question of reasonable belief. So is it reasonable to believe that a man who claimed to be God could change water into wine,perhaps , but is it reasonable to believe that the universe made itself by itself from nothing and that once all that hydrogen was created with the big bang all we had to do was wait and it turned into people , so hydrogen a colourless, odourless,gas that if left for long enough turns into people .How are atheist`s so un skeptical when it comes to fairy stories like this.Marfin
June 15, 2016
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Sounds like the troll William Spearshake has reincarnated.bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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BA77: "So does the origin of life count as a miracle in your book or is the probability for it occurring ‘naturally’ just to high for you to ever accept is as a miracle? Inquiring minds and all that!." It is possible to ask that question without all of that superfluous cut and paste that nobody reads. Just s suggestion. The origin of life, in my mind, is the only aspect of life where miracle might be invoked. I don't think that it is necessary, but I must admit that this is just opinion. But from there on in, I have not seen a need for miracle. There are plenty of unknowns, but only a lazy mind would invoke "miracle" for an unknown. Are you lazy? UDEditors: Gordon, you are new here so we will clue you in. One way to be shown the exit from these pages PDQ is to abuse BA77, whom we regard as a national treasure. First and last warning.Gordon Cunningham
June 15, 2016
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"I wasn’t suggesting anything profound. Just that a miracle should not include anything that has a reasonable (even if it is low) probability of occurring naturally." So does the origin of life count as a miracle in your book or is the probability for it occurring 'naturally' just to high for you to ever accept is as a miracle? Inquiring minds and all that!
Signature in the Cell - Book Review - Ken Peterson Excerpt: If we assume some minimally complex cell requires 250 different proteins then the probability of this arrangement happening purely by chance is one in 10 to the 164th multiplied by itself 250 times or one in 10 to the 41,000th power. http://www.spectrummagazine.org/reviews/book_reviews/2009/10/06/signature_cell
In fact years ago Fred Hoyle arrived at approximately the same number, one chance in 10^40,000, for life spontaneously arising.
Fred Hoyle - Rejection of Earth-based abiogenesis Excerpt: Published in his 1982/1984 books Evolution from Space (co-authored with Chandra Wickramasinghe), Hoyle calculated that the chance of obtaining the required set of enzymes for even the simplest living cell without panspermia was one in 10^40,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is infinitesimally tiny by comparison (10^80), he argued that Earth as life's place of origin could be ruled out. He claimed: The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hoyle#Rejection_of_Earth-based_abiogenesis
Professor Harold Morowitz shows that the Origin of Life 'problem' escalates dramatically over the oft cited 1 in 10^40,000 figure when working from a thermodynamic perspective:
"The probability for the chance of formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism known is 1 in 10^340,000,000. This number is 10 to the 340 millionth power! The size of this figure is truly staggering since there is only supposed to be approximately 10^80 (10 to the 80th power) electrons in the whole universe!" (Professor Harold Morowitz, Energy Flow In Biology pg. 99, Biophysicist of George Mason University) “The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” Ilya Prigogine, Gregoire Nicolis, and Agnes Babloyantz, Physics Today 25, pp. 23-28. (Sourced Quote)
Here is the low end probability
General and Special Evidence for Intelligent Design in Biology: - The requirements for the emergence of a primitive, coupled replication-translation system, which is considered a candidate for the breakthrough stage in this paper, are much greater. At a minimum, spontaneous formation of: - two rRNAs with a total size of at least 1000 nucleotides - ~10 primitive adaptors of ~30 nucleotides each, in total, ~300 nucleotides - at least one RNA encoding a replicase, ~500 nucleotides (low bound) is required. In the above notation, n = 1800, resulting in E less than 10^-1018. That is, the chance of life occurring by natural processes is 1 in 10 followed by 1018 zeros. (Koonin's intent was to show that short of postulating a multiverse of an infinite number of universes (Many Worlds), the chance of life occurring on earth is vanishingly small.) http://www.conservapedia.com/General_and_Special_Evidence_for_Intelligent_Design_in_Biology
Dr. Paul Giem did a lecture on Dr. Koonin’s paper. In the lecture, it was pointed out that Eugene Koonin’s estimates are overly optimistic on several assumptions. It was almost comical to learn some of the erroneous assumptions made by Dr. Koonin in order for him to get his ‘low’ 1 in 10^1018 probability for life originating:
Eugene Koonin and the Origin of Life 3-7-2015 by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkB8VcfvcBQ&index=17&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ
bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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Vivid: "My point is that chance is “a statistical description of unknown or complex physical causation”, it is not a thing." Agreed "Gotta run need to think about the rest of your comments. As short answer is I’m not sure but I see your point." Fair enough. I look forward to your response. But just for clarification. I wasn't suggesting anything profound. Just that a miracle should not include anything that has a reasonable (even if it is low) probability of occurring naturally. Which isn't to say that miracles can't encompass these events, just that there is no way of separating them.Gordon Cunningham
June 15, 2016
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Perhaps the brevity was part of the problem. Personally, I tend to be skeptical of claims about divine intervention in one's life. It's not that I think they are inherently implausible, but some people seem very quick to attribute every good thing that happens in their life to the direct intervention of God, and every bad thing to the direct intervention of evil spirits. Or if not every thing, then at least so many that they seem to have a very low bar for judging what probably is and what probably isn't. I'm more of a minimalist on this issue. I believe it happens, but I also believe that incredible coincidences do happen, so when some kind of one-off unusual thing happens that seems generally unlikely but still within the bounds of plausibility on a chance hypothesis, I usually favor coincidence as the more likely explanation than any kind of supernatural influence or intervention. Where I stop chalking things up to coincidence or chance is when they start forming a highly unlikely pattern and/or when aspects of the experience/events don't seem particularly prone to some kind of confirmation bias. For example, let me give you a personal experience, and make of it what you will. Almost 20 years ago, when I was a teenager, I was reading a book I'd bought second hand. It was technically in the "horror" genre I guess, but I'd read at least a dozen of the author's books before. Every time I'd pick up and start reading this book, right from the very first time, I would get a very uneasy feeling, which struck me as odd, because what I was reading was not particularly "scary" and I'd never had that feeling when reading any of the author's other books. Also, the conditions under which I was reading it were not ones likely to contribute to the uneasy feeling (even though I'm not really prone to that kind of effect anyway). I was reading in the middle of the afternoon in a brightly lit room. After a while, I put the book down and went about my day. That night, the night of the the first day that I owned the book and had started reading it, I had terribly violent and disturbing dreams, which had no relation whatsoever to the content in the book (like I said, I had just started reading the book and nothing remotely disturbing had happened in the story). Over the course of the next week or so, every single time I started reading the book I would get that bizarre uneasy feeling, and whether or not I had read the book during the day I would have the same kind of violent and disturbing dreams. Now, as I said, I'm not prone to attributing stuff to any kind of supernatural influence under normal conditions, and this was no exception. I found the whole experience weird, but I was not quick to jump to assumptions about some kind of evil influence. Still, after this kept happening so consistently for so many days on end I was having a very hard time not connecting what was happening to the book, so decided, just for the heck of it, to take the book out of my apartment and put it into a storage closet. Immediately the dreams went away. Still, I told myself that it was probably all in my head and that the sudden absence of these disturbing dreams was purely psychological, because I had connected them to the book in my mind and now that I'd moved the book out of my apartment I had set my own mind at ease, which was enough to explain why the dreams had stopped. A couple of weeks went by, then a month, then two. Everything was good. Suddenly, one night, the dreams came back with a vengeance. When I woke up in the morning I kind of laughed at myself for thinking they might have been connected to the presence of this book and then I went about my day as usual. Later in the afternoon I was organizing some stuff in my room and I went to put some papers into a drawer of miscellaneous stuff in my dresser, which I hadn't opened in a few weeks. When I opened the drawer, I was shocked to see the book sitting there, and I immediately thought about my dream the night before. Still, being skeptical about the connection, I reasoned to myself that clearly someone had come across it and put it in there, but that for all I knew it had probably been there for a couple weeks without me having the dreams, so they were probably still just a coincidence. A few hours later I was talking to my mother (I still lived with my parents at the time) and I mentioned the book I'd found in my drawer. She said she'd come across it when going through the storage closet and had put it in my drawer, as I'd suspected. Then I asked when she had done it, and it turned out she had only done it the previous afternoon, just hours before I'd had the dreams again for the first time in months. That was the last straw for me. I had had no idea whatsoever that the book was back in our apartment, much less in the dresser by my bed, and the very first day that it was back there I had exactly the same terrible and violent dreams I'd had months before, on every night that the book had been in my room, which had been the first time I'd ever had dreams like that. At that point I didn't feel like I could rationalize away the connection anymore, because there was no psychological factor that could explain why the dreams started up again. I immediately took the book, went outside and threw it in the trash. The dreams didn't come back that night. However, just to test and see if somehow the uneasy feelings and maybe even the nightmares themselves could have somehow been connected to the content of the book (rather that to the physical object of that particular copy of the book), I went to the bookstore the next day and bought a new copy (as opposed to the second-hand one I'd had before). I read the new copy and had no issues whatsoever. No uneasy feelings. No disturbing dreams. I enjoyed the story. Thoughts? Would you dismiss this as just an odd coincidence? Do you think I was too eager to conclude that something abnormal was going on or that I failed to approach the situation with an appropriate degree of skepticism? Take care, HeKSHeKS
June 15, 2016
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Of related note:
Dr. Craig Keener, author of “Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts” discusses in this web series some of the trustworthy accounts of people being raised from the dead and people being healed of sicknesses from around the world. – video playlist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE6sDPPQ7WA&list=PLC900F8EEB62AE426&feature=plcp&context=C43901d1FDvjVQa1PpcFPmClYI6nDQbdabTL_qw7jCisfOqOmxOyU= Craig Keener - Miracle Reports in the Gospels and Today - lecture video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYBnJF2P_WQ Here is a video that gives a short history of Christianity in China: “..it is difficult to investigate the phenomenon of Christianity in China today without hearing stories of miraculous healings.” -David Aikman (‘Jesus in Beijing’) (40:00 minute mark) Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvgveawp4oY Eric Metaxas – Miracles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtsHFc2fHOI “Reason and science compels us to see what previous generations could not: that our existence is an outrageous and astonishing miracle, one so startlingly and perhaps so disturbingly miraculous that it makes any miracle like the parting of the Red Sea pale in such insignificance that it almost becomes unworthy of our consideration, as though it were something done easily by a child, half-asleep. It is something to which the most truly human response is some combination of terror and wonder, of ancient awe, and childhood joy.” Eric Metaxas – Miracles – pages 55-56 (GodWinks) SQuire Rushnell & daughter of Emmett Kelly on FOX & FRIENDS 6/16/13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvdkCJgRzEk&list=UUhhpzDrOSynYa9xPfNtbrqw
bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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BTW, I found it most remarkable that on a morning after a prayer of surrender by my mom, and the frustration of no docs available at a key med centre, my mom half carried me to the doorway of the centre in despair -- I can still see it fresh in my mind's eye. As we came through, with me semiconscious and wheezing awfully, at the foot of the entrance stairway was a taxicab with passenger door open and a man saying: Asthma, I know just the doctor for him. That is how I came to the physician who saved my life. In answer to prayer of surrender. I count this a pivotal miracle in my life. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2016
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Yup.kairosfocus
June 15, 2016
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KF,
DS I suggest, read C S Lewis on Miracles. Therein, he points out that God routinely turns water plus CO2 plus light into wine year by year. “Naturally.”
And also nutrients from the soil. But again, the disciples found the practically instantaneous transformation of water to wine to be especially notable. So would I.daveS
June 15, 2016
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DS I suggest, read C S Lewis on Miracles. Therein, he points out that God routinely turns water plus CO2 plus light into wine year by year. "Naturally." So the miracle -- the sign pointing beyond the mundane world -- is in compressing the time factor and going around the usual means, grape plant, the picking, treading and fermentation. The further issue is responsiveness to evidence and reason. Which is emerging more and more at UD as a major issue. Indeed, I am moving close to the view that no reasonable quantum of evidence, no signature in observables would ever satisfy some objectors to the design inference, who have displayed argument patterns as seen. Outright fallacy of the closed, indoctrinated, unreasonable mind. When one sees games being played with first principles of reason, that is what is on the table. I fear, only shocking pain is going to move such minds. And likely, given trends with our civilisation, the pain of going over a cliff is coming. Maybe, sooner than our worst nightmares could dream up. We are in serious trouble with reality, reasonableness and responsibility, as a civilisation. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2016
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HeKS,
I’m just wondering here, would you really expect to see God acting in your life if you not only do not ask for it, but actually deny that God even exists? You say that this kind of activity would count as evidence for you, but it doesn’t seem to me that you’ve put yourself in any position to actually experience it. And if you did, what reason would you have to recognize it for what it was?
I wouldn't expect to see God acting in my life, although I have heard former atheists say that such things happpened to them even before they became Christians, so I consider it a possibility. There actually was a brief time in my life when I did pray, asking for faith and guidance. I didn't sense God in my life at that time either. Re #92: Ok, thanks.daveS
June 15, 2016
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daveS,
HeKS, Do you have a criticism of the water/wine “experiment” I described?
To be honest, I didn't read the details of the experiment because to me the whole issue is irrelevant. As I said, these kinds of overt miracles simply should not be expected in our time even if God exists, Christianity is true, and the record of miracles in the Bible is accurate. They served a purpose in a particular setting, at a particular time, for a particular period and it was foretold while they were still in the process of happening that they would soon come to an end. If Christianity is true, you should not be expecting to see these kinds of things anymore. At least not originating from God. As a Christian, if I saw something like this happening today and was convinced it wasn't a trick, I would be walking very quickly in the other direction.HeKS
June 15, 2016
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daveS, Earlier you said this:
I would find miracles, signs, and wonders convincing. Many of my Christian friends talk about how they sense God acting in their lives, and I would also count that as evidence (if I experienced it), although maybe not as conclusive.
I'm just wondering here, would you really expect to see God acting in your life if you not only do not ask for it, but actually deny that God even exists? You say that this kind of activity would count as evidence for you, but it doesn't seem to me that you've put yourself in any position to actually experience it. And if you did, what reason would you have to recognize it for what it was? Consider Hebrews 11:6 - "[W]ithout faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him" Given this, do you imagine that it is very likely you will be experiencing and recognizing God's activity in your life even if God exists and Christianity is true?HeKS
June 15, 2016
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HeKS,
I completely agree. daveS is somewhat of a rarity in this respect. I almost get the feeling that if we could help him to see the problematic and inequitable nature of his reasoning on this subject, he might actually come around.
Do you have a criticism of the water/wine "experiment" I described?daveS
June 15, 2016
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WJM
I’m sure you think your criteria is quite reasonable, and that’s really the pity here. But, I do appreciate your civil demeanor and willingness to openly and honestly engage.
I completely agree. daveS is somewhat of a rarity in this respect. I almost get the feeling that if we could help him to see the problematic and inequitable nature of his reasoning on this subject, he might actually come around.HeKS
June 15, 2016
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DonaldM, Yes, that is a very hard question. I don't currently have an answer for it.daveS
June 15, 2016
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Dave S: The question I would put to you isn't "what would you take to be evidence for God" but what would you say is the criterion that legitimately gives warrant to connecting any particular observed phenomenon to the conclusion God exists? Conversely, what is the criterion you apply to deny warrant to connecting some observation to the conclusion God exists? Whatever that criterion is, what gives it legitimacy? This is a really tough question to answer objectively.DonaldM
June 15, 2016
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GC @80 My point is that chance is "a statistical description of unknown or complex physical causation", it is not a thing. Gotta run need to think about the rest of your comments. As short answer is I'm not sure but I see your point. Vividvividbleau
June 15, 2016
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WJM,
I accept that you have described what would be convincing evidence for you to become a theist. I’m sure you’ll understand when I say that your requirements are neither rational or scientific. A really good stage magician could easily amaze you out of your atheism, IMO.
Could you explain in the "experiment" I described, how a magician would fool me? There are a couple of things I didn't mention in the interest of brevity, but I would of course want to have some "control" bottles, and probably would request the subject perform several trials rather than one. Blinding, if possible, would also be desirable.daveS
June 15, 2016
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William Murray wrote in #21
However, I disagree that such disputes are never about the evidence per se; most of my arguments are with atheists that deny that anything can be reasonably construed as evidence for god by any reasonable person.
Not sure I completely agree. Even with the way you state it here, the dispute really isn't about the evidence per se, but what gives warrant to connecting the evidence to a certain conclusion. In this case, the conclusion that there is a God, or may be a God. Whatever observation or phenomenon is cited as being such evidence, is what it is regardless of any conclusions one might draw from it. Whatever is being observed doesn't come with a little label attached telling us what it is evidence for (though if it did that would be powerful evidence!). Rather, evidentiary status is assigned to the evidence based on other principles and background knowledge and, yes, presuppositions, held by the observer. The dispute is over what gives warrant to evidentiary status for a certain observation. In saying there is no evidence for God, or that there can even be evidence for God even in principle (as some atheists seem to do), all they are saying is that there are no circumstances under which they would admit that a certain observation could ever legitimately give warrant to concluding that there is a God. But what gives warrant to that claim is the crux of the dispute. They like to claim its about evidence (or the lack thereof), when its really about protecting their worldview at all costs.DonaldM
June 15, 2016
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Random chance cures cancer? Random mutations cause cancer!
Bad Luck of Random Mutations Plays Predominant Role in Cancer, Study Shows --Statistical modeling links cancer risk with number of stem cell divisions January 1, 2015 Excerpt: In terms of cancer, we calculate that two-thirds of the variation is attributable to the random mutations that occur in stem cell divisions throughout a person’s lifetime, while the remaining risk is associated with environmental factors and inherited gene mutations. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/bad_luck_of_random_mutations_plays_predominant_role_in_cancer_study_shows
To the extent that a body is able to heal itself from cancer it is certainly not because of anything Darwinian evolution has ever done in the history of life but is the result of what an Intelligent agent has done in designing extensive overlapping DNA repair mechanisms in the cell (or in Drs. designing drugs). Thus however one recovers from cancer, either instantaneously or 'naturally' it is to be regarded as 'miraculous' since Darwinian evolution had nothing to do with it and Design was the cause of the cure.bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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daveS: I accept that you have described what would be convincing evidence for you to become a theist. I'm sure you'll understand when I say that your requirements are neither rational or scientific. A really good stage magician could easily amaze you out of your atheism, IMO. I'm sure you think your criteria is quite reasonable, and that's really the pity here. But, I do appreciate your civil demeanor and willingness to openly and honestly engage.William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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HeKS, Thanks for the detailed post. But much of the supposed scientific evidence you cite for the existence of God comes from fields at the frontiers of human knowledge, where even fundamental questions remain open (cosmology, for example). If, as you say, there are going to be no more overt miracles, then fine. But I think it's fairly difficult for the common layperson, such as myself, to come to an informed decision regarding these claims of fine-tuning, design in organisms, and so on.daveS
June 15, 2016
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Vivid, chance is related to probability. Random is the lack of directionality. Surely you agree that a miracle must be discounted if there is a probability of it occurring naturally. An unexpected cure from cancer may not have a high probability but it is not a miracle. It happens at too high a frequency to qualify as a miracle. This is not to downplay the joy that family members feel when it occurs.Gordon Cunningham
June 15, 2016
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GC @74 "random chance must be ruled out as the cause." Chance is NOT A Thing (nothing). To say that random chance could be the cause is to say that nothing is the cause. Vividvividbleau
June 15, 2016
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Gordon Cunningham: random chance must be ruled out as the cause. What is the source and nature of this "randomness" of which you speak? Do you mean by "randomness" something that is simply unpredictable by us, but not actually disconnected from deterministic causality? Or something else?mike1962
June 15, 2016
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Gordon Cunningham, I know you think fairly highly of your own opinion, but myself I will stick with Pauli's opinion over yours. In fact I would probably trust a bartender's opinion over yours. Moreover, you are talking about chance as if it is a cause in itself:
“To personify ‘chance’ as if we were talking about a causal agent,” notes biophysicist Donald M. MacKay, “is to make an illegitimate switch from a scientific to a quasi-religious mythological concept.” Similarly, Robert C. Sproul points out: “By calling the unknown cause ‘chance’ for so long, people begin to forget that a substitution was made. . . . The assumption that ‘chance equals an unknown cause’ has come to mean for many that ‘chance equals cause.’” The Universal Determinism Dichotomy (UDD) - David L. Abel - 2015 Excerpt: Sproul argues effectively that chance is not a cause of anything. Chance is nothing more than a statistical description of unknown or complex physical causation. Chance, therefore, cannot have any physical effects, since it is not a physical cause. 13,,, 13. Sproul RC. - Not a Chance: the Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books; 1994 https://www.academia.edu/12267097/The_Universal_Determinism_Dichotomy_UDD_
Thus to say 'it happened by chance', as it is usually used by Darwinists, is in reality a 'placeholder for ignorance' instead of being an appeal to a known cause.bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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