Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Debunking The Old “There Is No Evidence of God” Canard

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Recently some of our opponents have trotted out the old, long-since debunked, unsupportable universal claim “there is no evidence of God”. Let me illustrate how this is just another emotionally-addicted, rhetorical maxim atheists cling to without any real thought in the matter.

Facts, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence : a true piece of information”. According to Wiki, a scientific fact is: an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.”

Merriam Webster says the evidence is

“something which shows that something else exists or is true”.

Obviously, “something else” is not directly observable as a fact, or else one wouldn’t need evidence for it.

Wiki says that scientific evidence is

That which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.

People that claim to “go where the evidence leads” are fundamentally missing the fact that without an interpretive expectation, facts don’t lead anywhere. They are just brute facts that stand alone without any theoretical associations.

Theories explain or interpret facts, describing their place in a contextual framework.  Facts, when thusly interpreted, support or contradict those theories. Facts do not come with interpretations or conceptual frameworks. Interpretations exist in the mind of the individual considering a fact. Without a framework that contextualizes the facts in a system of expectations and meaning, facts are just brute sensory data. Facts don’t “lead” anwhere; they only lead where interpretations, intuition, logic or insight can support and understand them. Language itself categorizes the expression of facts into a systematic framework of expectations.

We expect facts to make sense within a consistent and reliable framework of coherent, causal space-time (an interpretive framework). We expect to find recognizable patterns. We expect our environment to have an understandable quality about it. We expect that we can make models that will not only explain facts, but predict them as well. We replace old models with ones that better explain and predict facts in a practical, useful manner.

What does it mean to say: “There is no evidence of god”, when any number of empirical facts can be interpreted favorably towards the existence of a god as commonly referred to as a supremely intelligent creator of the universe and source of goodness and moral law? Setting aside logical and moral arguments, personal experience, testimony and anecdote (all of which count as forms of evidence as I previously wrote about here), if one has a hypothesis that such a god exists, how can it be reasonable for atheists to claim that no physical facts can be interpreted to support the existence of that kind of god? Of course they can – billions do it every day.

Atheists do not have a copyright on how facts can be reasonably interpreted.  Much of the successful heuristic of modern science was founded entirely upon theistic expectations of a rationally understandable universe, metaphysical laws that governed the universe, and a god that favored elegance, efficiency and beauty.  They often referred to their scientific work as uncovering the mind of God.

Simply put, the atheist interprets certain sets of facts according to the expectation “there is no god”. The theist interprets those facts in light of the hypothesis that there is a god. Just because the atheist doesn’t consider the god hypothesis doesn’t mean that facts cannot be intepreted to support that hypothesis.

Take for instance the fine-tuning facts. Each of those force/material constants are facts. Scores of them appear to be fine-tuned for the existence of a universe that can support life. Take also for instance the advanced nano-technology of living cells. These facts can certainly be supportive of the hypothesis that an intelligent, creative god designed the universe and life. Now, throw in the logical arguments, anecdotes and the testimony of billions of people for thousands of years; it is a blatantly false lie or sheer denial to claim that there is “no” evidence for a god of some sort, when the term “evidence” means, among other things, an interpretation of facts that support a theory or hypothesis.  Evidence can also mean testimony; it can refer to circumstantial or anecdotal evidence; it can refer to logical, rational arguments in support of an assertion.

I’ve come to view many anti-ID advocates as having profound psychological resistance to anything that remotely points to the existence of a god of some sort. This cathexis seems to be a deep-rooted hostility towards the god concept in general that generates an almost hypnotic form of neuro-linguistic programming where they cannot see what is before them, and also leads them to see things that are not there.

Atheists/physicalists often talk about “believing what the evidence dictates”, but fail to understand that “evidence” is an interpretation of facts. Facts don’t “lead” anywhere in and of themselves; they carry with them no conceptual framework that dictates how they “should” fit into any hypothesis or pattern. Even the language by which one describes a fact necessarily frames that fact in a certain conceptual framework that may be counterproductive.

Atheists first preclude “god” from being an acceptable hypothesis, and then say “there is no evidence of god”. Well, Duh. The only way there could be evidence of god is if you first accept it as a hypothesis by which one interprets or explains facts.

“God” is a perfectly good hypothesis for explaining many facts especially in light of supporting testimonial, anecdotal, logical and circumstatial evidences. When an atheist says “there is no evidence for god”, what they are really saying (but are psychologically blind to it) is: There is no god, so there cannot be evidence for it. Their conclusion comes first, and so no evidence – in their mind, irrationally – can exist for that which does not – cannot – exist.

There is evidence that all sorts of things are true or exist; that doesn’t mean they actually exist, or are actually true – just that some facts can be interpreted to support the theory. To claim “there is no evidence for god” is absurd; atheists may not be convinced by the evidence, and they may not interpret the evidence in light of a “god hypothesis”. But to claim it is not evidence at all reveals uncompromising ideological denial. If one cannot even admit that there is evidence of god for those who interpret facts from that hypothesis, they cannot be reasoned with.

Comments
DaveS @ #44: I'm confused now. Are you saying it is possible to transform water into wine with a corresponding expenditure of energy? Are you saying it just "appears" to be impossible to us, but that it's not really impossible? Are you saying that it would just be really, really unlikely and difficult?William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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daveS asks:
What would you conclude if you witnessed a tiger saying, in basso profondo, “I am God”?
There would be many things go through my mind as options. That the tiger was actually god would be a very, very remote possibility regardless of how well it spoke.William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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Further to the water/wine transformation: here is a paper which calculates the energy required to convert 20 to 30 gallons of pure water (the approximate amount mentioned in John) to a 12% ABV water-ethanol mixture, assuming that the carbon is obtained from the atmosphere. The end result is roughly 0.3 GJ, or about 80 kWh. The average US home consumes 911 kWh of electricity per month.daveS
June 14, 2016
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With all respect, miraculous cures assume the infallibility of doctors and their diagnosis. But, doctors will be the first to admit that they are fallible.Gordon Cunningham
June 14, 2016
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WJM "BTW, I’m just as unamused by irrational theists as I am irrational atheists. Imagine, becoming a theist because one saw water being turned into wine!" I remember when I was a young Christian (19yo) I often heard claims from Christians about healings and other alleged miracles. I had a lot of doubt about these claims. I still do in many respects. However, I too have crossed the threshold of incredulity regarding miracles. They happen. I have experienced them and there is no rational explanation for them. There are of course many reasonable counter arguments that people think of, but what makes them miracles, is that we have exhausted all reasonable accounts, and they come out unscathed by the attacks of human reason. But surprisingly, it isn't these events that convince me that God exists. I'm convinced by the abstract metaphysical arguments alone. Miracles only confirm my prior conviction that God exists.CannuckianYankee
June 14, 2016
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WJM: "As an atheist, I saw my wife faith-healed from terminal cancer." I sincerely wish your wife and yourself well. But, you do realize, that cancer grades on the bell curve. There are people out on the edge of the curve that "beat the odds". "I’ve seen plenty of miracles and supernatural events that didn’t have anything to do with god per se, so someone changing water into wine wouldn’t impress me in the way it would apparently transfix and transform you." Maybe you could give us some examples. My experience is that what some people call miracles are simply improbable events. Improbable still means possible.Gordon Cunningham
June 14, 2016
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WJM:
They would likely feel the same way about me if I went back in time with a lighter, a flashlight, and a Glock 9mm with a few rounds of ammo.
One of my favorite SF shorts is based on this premise, Frost and Thunder by Randall Garrett.Barry Arrington
June 14, 2016
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WJM,
Why would you say that water turning into wine is a physical impossibility? Please explain how it is “impossible”.
Well, a chemist could probably give a better answer, but here are a few things. The water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen atoms (plus some trace impurities). The wine would contain ethanol, which requires carbon atoms. The other components of wine include sugars, acids, and so forth, that again are not made up purely of hydrogen and oxygen, so the chemistry won't work out. That is, unless there is nuclear fusion happening? Anyway, I quite confidently assert that humans cannot actually turn water into wine.
Why would you think god can generate a physical impossibility into the physical world?
Maybe "physical impossibility" is not the right expression. What should we call it when God turns water into wine or parts the Red Sea? Those things, which appear to be physically impossible to us humans, are what I'm talking about.
Can god create a triangular object with 4 sides?
No.
I guess that’s the difference beween you and me. I’ve seen plenty of miracles and supernatural events that didn’t have anything to do with god per se, so someone changing water into wine wouldn’t impress me in the way it would apparently transfix and transform you.
Yes, we are different in that respect.daveS
June 14, 2016
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WJM: "1. Why would you say that water turning into wine is a physical impossibility? Please explain how it is “impossible”." Ask a chemist.Gordon Cunningham
June 14, 2016
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daveS said:
Well, who else could achieve a physical impossibility?
1. Why would you say that water turning into wine is a physical impossibility? Please explain how it is "impossible". 2. Why would you think god can generate a physical impossibility into the physical world? Can god create a triangular object with 4 sides?
So if I did witness water being changed into wine (again, under controlled conditions), then I would probably become a theist.
Well, I didn't think your atheism was rational in the first place, so I can see why some such spectacle might irrationally move you from atheism to theism. As an atheist, I saw my wife faith-healed from terminal cancer. My go-to thought was not "there is a god and god did it". It was, rather, "Okay, I need to open my mind about what this world is and how it works, because that just happened and I'm not going to lie to myself to cover it up." I guess that's the difference beween you and me. I've seen plenty of miracles and supernatural events that didn't have anything to do with god per se, so someone changing water into wine wouldn't impress me in the way it would apparently transfix and transform you. BTW, I'm just as unamused by irrational theists as I am irrational atheists. Imagine, becoming a theist because one saw water being turned into wine! A rock-solid foundation for theism if any there was one (/sarcasm)! Dontchaknow?William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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I have never witnessed a miracle. Or at least not a biblical miracle. I am well aware that God's miracles have diminished over time, and He now confines Himself to curing cancer, or preventing you boarding a flight that is destined to crash. But, a true, honest to God miracle? No! It seems He really does demand faith, which is fine. But if you are going to talk about 'proof', please be adult about it. This is probably my last post for some years. I was banned several years ago, around the 'Dover Debacle', because I asked questions Mr Dembski deemed impertinant. Good luck with your science.rvb8
June 14, 2016
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WJM,
Honestly, daveS, I get the feeling you’re not really arguing in good faith here. “Maybe if the tiger spoke really fluently”?? Really? That would be the determining factor to go from atheism to belief in god – how fluently a talking tiger could speak? It just seems like you must be having us on.
I'm trying to respond seriously to a rather outlandish scenario. Some animals can mimic human speech. Tigers cannot, as far as I am aware, but it's conceivable that someone could train one to grunt out a few syllables, or more likely fake the whole thing. If I found that the tiger was able to actually converse, I would have a very hard time explaining it. What would you conclude if you witnessed a tiger saying, in basso profondo, "I am God"?daveS
June 14, 2016
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WJM,
They would likely feel the same way about me if I went back in time with a lighter, a flashlight, and a Glock 9mm with a few rounds of ammo. That wouldn’t make me god, though.
Well, I think time travel of that type is impossible, so this scenario could not happen. The water to wine transformation was not exactly a controlled experiment, granted, but what other explanation would the disciples have?
Really? Someone turns water into wine and your primary, go-to explanation from a starting point of atheism is “okay, there probably is a god and god changed the water into wine?”
Well, who else could achieve a physical impossibility?
I’ve seen better magician tricks than that.
Notice I specified above that the act would have to take place under controlled conditions, where I could physically examine the water, wine, containers, etc. Perhaps Penn and Teller could assist in checking for trickery. :-)
Do you, as an atheist, think that if the supernatural exists and affects the world, god is the only supernatural thing interacting in the world causing “supernatural” things to happen ... you know, like maybe changing water into wine?
People tell me there are angels, demons, and so on, so I do acknowledge that beings other than God might have these abilities. In my experience, people do not. So if I did witness water being changed into wine (again, under controlled conditions), then I would probably become a theist. Edit:
Even in the Bible, isn’t there a Devil, angels and demons and other supernatural entities that can operate in the world, causing all sorts of unnatural things to occur?
Overlooked this. Yes, but if these things exist, God most likely exists, right?daveS
June 14, 2016
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Honestly, daveS, I get the feeling you're not really arguing in good faith here. "Maybe if the tiger spoke really fluently"?? Really? That would be the determining factor to go from atheism to belief in god - how fluently a talking tiger could speak? It just seems like you must be having us on.William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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daveS said:
Here’s how Jesus’ disciples felt:
They would likely feel the same way about me if I went back in time with a lighter, a flashlight, and a Glock 9mm with a few rounds of ammo. That wouldn't make me god, though.
I still would find the water to wine transformation more convincing, again because I think I could rule out alternative explanations with more certainty.
Really? Someone turns water into wine and your primary, go-to explanation from a starting point of atheism is "okay, there probably is a god and god changed the water into wine?" Man, that doesn't even make sense. I've seen better magician tricks than that. I've experienced more impressive supernatural feats by far that, as far as I could tell, had nothing whatsoever to do with god. Do you, as an atheist, think that if the supernatural exists and affects the world, god is the only supernatural thing interacting in the world causing "supernatural" things to happen ... you know, like maybe changing water into wine? I take it you haven't read much or investigated at all into religion, spirituality or the supernatural? Even in the Bible, isn't there a Devil, angels and demons and other supernatural entities that can operate in the world, causing all sorts of unnatural things to occur?William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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WJM,
I said it would be a parlor trick compared to far more miraculous abilities we ALL have, like turning food and air into energy, motion and thought, or turning intent into billions of molecular actions that produces corresponding desired actions of the body, none of which we know anything technical about how to produce or control.
Well, maybe so, but I also have no idea how to turn water into wine. In fact, I think it's physically impossible. Such an act, by its very simplicity, would also be relatively easy to monitor and therefore rule out sleight of hand.
I find it disappointing that you think someone turning water into wine would be evidence of god.
Here's how Jesus' disciples felt:
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
***
Let me ask you, if you met a tiger that could talk and the tiger said, “I am god”, would you be inclined to believe him?
Perhaps if the tiger could actually speak fluently. I have seen dogs that have been trained to mimic human speech at a very rudimentary level, so I would want to rule that sort of thing out. I still would find the water to wine transformation more convincing, again because I think I could rule out alternative explanations with more certainty.daveS
June 14, 2016
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I’m sure you are aware that people are purported to have found this “parlor trick” convincing 2000 years ago, right? I have no idea how the human body/mind works. I do know that water just doesn’t turn into wine “naturally”. Therefore I would find such an event very persuasive.
I said it would be a parlor trick compared to far more miraculous abilities we ALL have, like turning food and air into energy, motion and thought, or turning intent into billions of molecular actions that produces corresponding desired actions of the body, none of which we know anything technical about how to produce or control. I find it disappointing that you think someone turning water into wine would be evidence of god. I mean, I grant it would be neat trick and maybe it was even evidence of magic or the supernatural, but evidence of god? Maybe tangentially, but certainly not more compelling as evidence for god than the fine-tuning evidence. Now, that's some serious, hard-hitting evidence that even had Stephen Hawking scrambling to write a book to offer another explanation for it. Let me ask you, if you met a tiger that could talk and the tiger said, "I am god", would you be inclined to believe him?William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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DS @ 26: My experience is that if you were to witness that miracle, rather than being persuaded, you would contrive any explanation other than, "God did it." With atheists, if you present ten pieces of evidence, they will always require 11. I suspect a videotape of the actual resurrection would first be claimed as CGI, and last an admission that finally, all the claims made in the Bible might be just exactly as claimed. For as easy as it is to live in denial, someday you have to die, either in possession of denial, or truth.AnimatedDust
June 14, 2016
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WJM: Have you considered/are you considering/are you working on a book? My hope is for the third choice.AnimatedDust
June 14, 2016
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I would prefer to see water changed to beer. My bank account would be larger.Gordon Cunningham
June 14, 2016
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Barry,
But Dave, for goodness sake, it is just plain stupid to say that you do not believe Jesus’ miracles occurred because you did not personally witness them.
Well, I'm not saying that. However in my reply to HeKS, I was referring to witnessing water change to wine myself. That's something I would find very persuasive.daveS
June 14, 2016
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WJM,
For example, you refer to turning water into wine as a miraculous, potentially convincing occurrence, when such a parlor trick pales to insignificance in light of our ability, without any technical understanding whatsoever, to simply intend an action and our body springs into action.
I'm sure you are aware that people are purported to have found this "parlor trick" convincing 2000 years ago, right? I have no idea how the human body/mind works. I do know that water just doesn't turn into wine "naturally". Therefore I would find such an event very persuasive.daveS
June 14, 2016
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daveS @ 22. Suppose you are on a jury. The issue is whether a driver negligently ran a red light. Witness 1 (call him Sam) is the only one who was in a position to tell the color of the light. Sam testifies that the light was green. The evidence closes and the case goes to the jury. The jury begins deliberations. One of the other jurors says, "I think we should consider finding for the defendant, because the evidence suggests the light was green." You say, "Evidence, what evidence?" The other juror says, "Well, Sam testified the light was green." Don't you think you would look pretty stupid if you replied: "Ok, where can I witness this?" Let me answer that question for you. Yes, you would. You can say that you don't believe the testimony of the witnesses to Jesus' miracles. You can even say that you don't believe the testimony was reliably transmitted and is therefore suspect. But Dave, for goodness sake, it is just plain stupid to say that you do not believe Jesus' miracles occurred because you did not personally witness them.Barry Arrington
June 14, 2016
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daveS @18: I suggest that we are all so deeply embedded in an ongoing procession of the miraculous in every location we look that the sheer ubiquitous of the miraculous allows us to consider it all normal and natural. For example, you refer to turning water into wine as a miraculous, potentially convincing occurrence, when such a parlor trick pales to insignificance in light of our ability, without any technical understanding whatsoever, to simply intend an action and our body springs into action. Billions of cells and molecular exchanges go off in a glory of precise sequence, quality and quantity as our body operates simply from a conceptual intention, that command translated into countless microsopic actions to manifest the macroscopic goal. Doubters always turn their eyes away from the real evidence all around them and point at that which they feel confident they will not ever experience as that which might convince them. IMO, for anyone not resolutely committed against theism, there is overwhelming evidence that a god of some sort exists - which is why, as I say, no amount of evidence can pry off the blindfold of denial.William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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Andre,
You set the bar low for miracles water to wine is easy peasy.
Ok, where can I witness this?daveS
June 14, 2016
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DonaldM @#9: Good analysis. However, I disagree that such disputes are never about the evidence per se; most of my arguments are with atheists that deny that anything can be reasonably construed as evidence for god by any reasonable person. They are quite adamant about not letting a divine foot in the door, and so offer up blanket denials about any evidence for god or the supernatural.William J Murray
June 14, 2016
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Mk And of all things a rotary motor!Andre
June 14, 2016
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DaveS You set the bar low for miracles water to wine is easy peasy. How about you are THE miracle? A bag of chemical reactions that can say; I think Therefor I am..... Miracles don't get bigger than that my friend.Andre
June 14, 2016
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HeKS,
I think the question is more: Without devolving into Selective Hyper-skepticism, what kind of evidence would you require in order to believe that the likeliness of God’s existence has been established to a standard of Moral Certainty, as opposed to Absolute Certainty?
I would find miracles, signs, and wonders convincing. Many of my Christian friends talk about how they sense God acting in their lives, and I would also count that as evidence (if I experienced it), although maybe not as conclusive. I too have problems with the statement "exceptional claims require exceptional evidence". Just regular evidence of the form I described above, for example water changing into wine (under controlled conditions) would suffice in my case.daveS
June 14, 2016
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one example is the flagellum motor. we know that a motor (even a self replicating one) is evidence for design.mk
June 14, 2016
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