Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Debunking The Old “There Is No Evidence of God” Canard

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Recently some of our opponents have trotted out the old, long-since debunked, unsupportable universal claim “there is no evidence of God”. Let me illustrate how this is just another emotionally-addicted, rhetorical maxim atheists cling to without any real thought in the matter.

Facts, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence : a true piece of information”. According to Wiki, a scientific fact is: an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.”

Merriam Webster says the evidence is

“something which shows that something else exists or is true”.

Obviously, “something else” is not directly observable as a fact, or else one wouldn’t need evidence for it.

Wiki says that scientific evidence is

That which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.

People that claim to “go where the evidence leads” are fundamentally missing the fact that without an interpretive expectation, facts don’t lead anywhere. They are just brute facts that stand alone without any theoretical associations.

Theories explain or interpret facts, describing their place in a contextual framework.  Facts, when thusly interpreted, support or contradict those theories. Facts do not come with interpretations or conceptual frameworks. Interpretations exist in the mind of the individual considering a fact. Without a framework that contextualizes the facts in a system of expectations and meaning, facts are just brute sensory data. Facts don’t “lead” anwhere; they only lead where interpretations, intuition, logic or insight can support and understand them. Language itself categorizes the expression of facts into a systematic framework of expectations.

We expect facts to make sense within a consistent and reliable framework of coherent, causal space-time (an interpretive framework). We expect to find recognizable patterns. We expect our environment to have an understandable quality about it. We expect that we can make models that will not only explain facts, but predict them as well. We replace old models with ones that better explain and predict facts in a practical, useful manner.

What does it mean to say: “There is no evidence of god”, when any number of empirical facts can be interpreted favorably towards the existence of a god as commonly referred to as a supremely intelligent creator of the universe and source of goodness and moral law? Setting aside logical and moral arguments, personal experience, testimony and anecdote (all of which count as forms of evidence as I previously wrote about here), if one has a hypothesis that such a god exists, how can it be reasonable for atheists to claim that no physical facts can be interpreted to support the existence of that kind of god? Of course they can – billions do it every day.

Atheists do not have a copyright on how facts can be reasonably interpreted.  Much of the successful heuristic of modern science was founded entirely upon theistic expectations of a rationally understandable universe, metaphysical laws that governed the universe, and a god that favored elegance, efficiency and beauty.  They often referred to their scientific work as uncovering the mind of God.

Simply put, the atheist interprets certain sets of facts according to the expectation “there is no god”. The theist interprets those facts in light of the hypothesis that there is a god. Just because the atheist doesn’t consider the god hypothesis doesn’t mean that facts cannot be intepreted to support that hypothesis.

Take for instance the fine-tuning facts. Each of those force/material constants are facts. Scores of them appear to be fine-tuned for the existence of a universe that can support life. Take also for instance the advanced nano-technology of living cells. These facts can certainly be supportive of the hypothesis that an intelligent, creative god designed the universe and life. Now, throw in the logical arguments, anecdotes and the testimony of billions of people for thousands of years; it is a blatantly false lie or sheer denial to claim that there is “no” evidence for a god of some sort, when the term “evidence” means, among other things, an interpretation of facts that support a theory or hypothesis.  Evidence can also mean testimony; it can refer to circumstantial or anecdotal evidence; it can refer to logical, rational arguments in support of an assertion.

I’ve come to view many anti-ID advocates as having profound psychological resistance to anything that remotely points to the existence of a god of some sort. This cathexis seems to be a deep-rooted hostility towards the god concept in general that generates an almost hypnotic form of neuro-linguistic programming where they cannot see what is before them, and also leads them to see things that are not there.

Atheists/physicalists often talk about “believing what the evidence dictates”, but fail to understand that “evidence” is an interpretation of facts. Facts don’t “lead” anywhere in and of themselves; they carry with them no conceptual framework that dictates how they “should” fit into any hypothesis or pattern. Even the language by which one describes a fact necessarily frames that fact in a certain conceptual framework that may be counterproductive.

Atheists first preclude “god” from being an acceptable hypothesis, and then say “there is no evidence of god”. Well, Duh. The only way there could be evidence of god is if you first accept it as a hypothesis by which one interprets or explains facts.

“God” is a perfectly good hypothesis for explaining many facts especially in light of supporting testimonial, anecdotal, logical and circumstatial evidences. When an atheist says “there is no evidence for god”, what they are really saying (but are psychologically blind to it) is: There is no god, so there cannot be evidence for it. Their conclusion comes first, and so no evidence – in their mind, irrationally – can exist for that which does not – cannot – exist.

There is evidence that all sorts of things are true or exist; that doesn’t mean they actually exist, or are actually true – just that some facts can be interpreted to support the theory. To claim “there is no evidence for god” is absurd; atheists may not be convinced by the evidence, and they may not interpret the evidence in light of a “god hypothesis”. But to claim it is not evidence at all reveals uncompromising ideological denial. If one cannot even admit that there is evidence of god for those who interpret facts from that hypothesis, they cannot be reasoned with.

Comments
DaveS: If you observed a miracle now as you describe, you would still reject true Christianity.Dr JDD
June 15, 2016
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daveS - I ask you to perform a really simple task. First of all - ANYTHING which repeatedly defies the physical limitations of materialism should be interpreted by you as a miracle. You CAN BE an eye witness to a most miraculous thing! You can think the thought, "I want to raise why hand in exactly 30 seconds". AND make it happen. AND you can do it repeatedly. Now making something happen AFTER an ARBITRARY amount of time is something a purely physical world is just not tuned for. It makes no sense that the particular collection of electronic impulses that allowed your mind to record the arbitrary number "30" in your thought, could set up AT THAT TIME a system so that your hand without fail was raised in exactly 30 seconds. What would really have to happen after your thought is for you to actively choose to assign the effort to raise your hand to an item that you know ticks off an interval of 30 seconds - such as a wall clock or smart phone. Your mind would quickly form a command that you will raise your hand -- not in 30 seconds, but in what your mind chose as a good marker of a period of 30 seconds such as--- I will raise my hand when the number "30" appears in the timer app on my smart phone. This ARBITRARY assignment of the causal factor that prompts you to raise your hand, means that NO physical process could have caused this. You had to do the miracle of doing something beyond the physical. You had to create an arbitrary command to facilitate the raising of your hand in 30 seconds. You can do this!!! So, go ahead daveS. Witness a miracle. Think the thought "I want to raise my hand in 30 seconds" and then make it happen. --- and then do it again, and again, and again. You will end up being a witness to a miracle. You will have the opportunity to believe in God after all. OR else... you can come up with a reasonable explanation how a physical process can change the causal reason for you to raise your hand from the arbitrary thought "in 30 seconds" to "when my smart phone timer app displays "30".JDH
June 15, 2016
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BA77: "Since the term ‘random chance’ is more a less synonymous with the word miracle, then I hold that the atheist already does believe in ‘miracles’." Not even close. For a miracle to be considered, random chance must be ruled out as the cause.Gordon Cunningham
June 15, 2016
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daveS @60
HeKS,
Given this scenario, here’s my question: Keeping in mind that this agnostic has read the detailed accounts of the 2016 miracles, would it be intellectually appropriate for him to decide that the only kind of evidence that would convince him to a standard of Moral Certainty that God exists and that Christian belief is true would be witnessing overt miracles of the sort that were described as happening in 2016?
No, other evidence should be considered as well
Ok, that's a good start, but my point really went beyond that. It was related to the following point in my earlier post to you:
Instead, when looking to establish some proposition to a degree of Moral Certainty, the kinds of things we typically want from the proposition is that it is coherent, supported by and consistent with a sufficient degree of evidence given what we could reasonably expect to find if the proposition is true....
So, you're saying that other evidence beyond miracles should be considered as well, but in the scenario I described, if the records about the 2016 miracles were true, then overt miracles of the same sort are simply not a type of evidence that people living in much later times should expect to find at all. Examples of God working in people's lives in ways both incredible and mundane are one thing, but there should be no expectation of grand, overt, public miracles used as a means of establishing God's support behind a faith community or confirming the identity of an important religious figure. And note that this would not simply be a case of some kind of post hoc rationalization for the absence of miracles, with Christians waving 2016 off as "clearly a different time". Instead, the claim that the miracles would stop originated at the height of the time the miracles were happening. Of course, as you may have guessed, the reason I've been describing this scenario is because it exactly represents what happened in Biblical times:
1 Corinthians 13:8-11 - [I]f there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.
Miracles served to establish and build up the Christian congregation when it was in its infancy, as well as to establish the identity of Jesus for those who were disposed to accept it. But once the congregation was established and mature, miracles were no longer going to occur, nor should they be needed, because they were intended for those who were still spiritual children who had nothing else available at the time to help them establish their Christian faith amidst their cultural and religious surroundings.
I’m just saying that water/wine type miracles would be most convincing and easiest to evaluate for me. Understanding the miraculous nature of a water-to-wine transformation does not require any specialized background knowledge or anything beyond normal intelligence. I believe even those with intellectual disabilities would be able to comprehend it.
But there is nothing particularly difficult to understand about either the scientific or philosophical arguments for God's existence, or for the presence of the kind of design in the universe that is highly suggestive of God's existence. A person of normal intelligence can easily look at the fact that Jews and Christians, based on the Bible, believed that the universe had a beginning and was brought into existence by God while materialist leaning philosophers and scientists took the view that that the universe had existed eternally. When the evidence came in that the universe had a beginning, the scientific community was loathe to accept it specifically because of its rather blatant theistic implications. It took WAY longer to be accepted than would be expected based on the strength of the evidence, and the comments of the people who opposed it indicated how central the theistic and even specifically Biblical connections were to their opposition. Ultimately the evidence left them with no choice, but many still actively seek all manner of ways to avoid the idea that the universe had an absolute beginning in a way that goes far beyond the normal efforts of science to test and falsify a theory. A person of normal intelligence, recognizing the cause and effect relationships of reality, can look at the sudden explosion into being of the universe and realize that anything that begins to exist must have a sufficient cause of its existence. Such a person can also look to the apparent fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent embodied life and realize that the values determining the behavior and structure of our universe sit within the unfathomably narrow range of values that make our existence possible, and they can observe multiple scientists who are committed atheists saying that the only real choices we have to explain this state of affairs is either God or a massive multiverse (which would probably need to be infinite to account for not only the fine-tuning of the universe itself but also all the fine-tuning within it, such as the hundreds of criteria that must be met for our own planet to be capable of sustaining intelligent life over a long period of time). Such a person could also hear about the marvelous complexity of living things, the molecular machines that are crucial to life, the presence of a digital code and information in DNA, and the many hallmarks of design that we see in biology. They can also reason that intelligence is the only cause we actually know of that is capable of bringing about these effects, and see that even scientists who reject design admit that it gives the incredibly strong appearance of having been designed for a purpose while claiming to know better and saying that this was all really the result of natural processes that have never been observed to produce results even remotely connected the generation of the major features of any living organism. They point instead to natural processes capable of making minor adjustments to existing things within strict limits, which itself seems to be part of designed process of adaptation, and then they call for unrestrained extrapolation from the minute to the massive and say that anyone who doubts the sufficiency of such minor changes to add up to spectacular novelty must be stupid, ignorant or insane. And these kinds of things are just the beginning. But however technical some of the underlying details might be, the broad strokes supportive of theism are accessible to anyone of normal intelligence and even non-religious and anti-religious scientists who reject God can be found repeatedly acknowledging that fanciful science-fiction-style theories are really the only alternative to God that we have right now. And I haven't even gotten into any of the massive problems with those alternatives. But consider this: In Jesus' day, they had miracles, because that's what was required to establish the truth, sustain faith and convince open-minded and right-hearted skeptics in that social climate, and they did their job. After the time of Jesus and his apostles, once miracles stopped, Christians had the completed Bible as a record of both history and prophecy, and that was sufficient to sustain faith and make right-hearted converts in that social climate, and so it did its job. In today's social climate, science has become the currency of the day, and as that has happened we've made astounding scientific discoveries about life and the universe that strongly point to God's existence, not least of which is the fact that we, quite miraculously, seem to be in an ideal place to make scientific discoveries, including the ones that point directly to God's existence, and this has been sufficient to sustain faith and to convince many open-minded and right-hearted skeptics, so this evidence has done its job. When modern-day atheists say that they would be convinced of God's existence if only they could observe miraculous events from the days of old, like the turning of water into wine, they are asking for evidence that was suitable for an ancient culture and social climate that didn't have access to the mountains of evidence available in our own time, which exists in the very currency of our own social climate. This kind of refusal to accept the reality of God's existence stems not from a dearth of relevant and reliable evidence but from an utter lack of desire to see and believe the evidence that has been made available to us, causing people to grasp at every conceivable alternative, no matter how flimsy and unsubstantiated.HeKS
June 15, 2016
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I was baptized in 2001. At that time the world did not change one iota. But the world looked different to me because I had changed. The atheist who does not see evidence for God existing reaches that conclusion only because he or she does not want to see it. Pascal provides one of the best descriptions of the process and the reasons behind it. I do not want to give away the answer yet, but it is found in these questions: 1 - Do you want love to exist? 2 - Do you want hope to exist? If you want those things to exist then you need to find faith. Now faith need not be complete at the beginning. You just need to be honest in asking for the smallest indication that God exists and THEN accept that answer. If you do not want those two things in your life that is your choice. Until you change your mind God will never force you but He will always love you.GCS
June 15, 2016
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WJM, bringing the heat! :-) Much of your criticisms of me also apply to the disciples. Do I even need to address those? I don't think I do. Of course none of us knows everything, or even more than a tiny fraction of the knowledge that exists. Likewise, I can only verify to my satisfaction that the water/wine transformation did not involve trickery. But HeKS asked about evidence establishing the existence of God with moral certainty, not absolute certainty. Let me describe what I had in mind for a modern-day water/wine transformation. Optimally, it would take place in a lab setting with mass spectrometers and so forth available. But even a simple demonstration in my own house would suffice. For example:
I buy several cases of bottled water of various brands. I choose one at random and take a sip, observing that the color and taste is consistent with water. I close the bottle and place it on an empty table. The subject, allegedly with the power to transmute substances, does his thing, without touching the bottle or even approaching it, and the water suddenly turns dark red. I taste the contents of the bottle, and find that it tastes like a very high-quality wine.
I would conclude that this person has powers that, before I witnessed the event, I would have denied exist. You are right that it would be hasty to conclude this person was God himself, but it would at least be a transformational experience for me. I don't know how I would explain it from my current atheist stance. You can call this a ridiculous position, but I will stand by it.daveS
June 15, 2016
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daveS said:
PS to my #67: Obviously if I had been at that wedding and observed the transformation, I would know nothing of modern chemistry or physics. I would still have concluded it was likely a “supernatural” event, provided I was able to check that there were no tricks involved.
You don't have the capacity to check to see if their are "no tricks involved", daveS. Unless, of course, you're a magician, a scientist in the related fields, and a decent logician. IOW, if you felt it was a supernatural event (even realizing your own ignorance in any relevant field for ascertaining the legitimacy of the event), for whatever reason you'd become a theist. That's what you'd have us believe, anyway. It's really a rather ridiculous position you've carved out for yourself.William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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Earlier in the thread, DaveS said:
Well, maybe so, but I also have no idea how to turn water into wine. In fact, I think it’s physically impossible.
Also:
I’m saying it’s impossible for a human to turn water into wine as Jesus is said to do in the Gospel of John.
Now, more recently, he said: daveS said:
Not that I know of. However, I’d like to see someone with more knowledge investigate the amount of energy required and how much would be released as this happened. Would it be possible without vaporizing the surrounding area? ... The paper quotes a minimum of 80 kWh required to complete the reaction. I don’t believe the technology existed at that time to supply this amount of energy in a matter of minutes. ... You will have to ask a chemist about this. ... However, the paper does conclude that “thus without additional equipment [which I did not believe existed at the time] the extract from John does remain a miracle”. My conclusion, which I am extremely confident of, is that if water was converted to wine as described in John, it was a miracle, and if I had been one of Jesus’ disciples at that wedding, I would have considered it to be strong evidence of His divinity.
And, from a previous post:
That can be more challenging for people such as myself who are not scientists or philosophers.
So, this series of responses will suffice to bring us to the point. By his own admission, daveS is neither scientist nor philosopher. Even so, he has offered a paper that claims to examine what would be chemically necessary, in terms of ingredients and energy, to transform water into wine. DaveS, not being a scientist, cannot vet the accuracy of this paper himself; he must accept what it says as written testimonial evidence. Yet, daveS denies as equally valid the written testimonial evidence provided in the Bible and by billions of people over thousands of years wrt their experience of god. I assume daveS is not a historian or a Biblical scholar; so, by what reasoning does daveS accept one piece of written testimony over other testimonies? Furthermore, daveS has asserted that he thinks it is impossible for water to transform into wine; yet daveS is not a chemist. DaveS seems unaware that this may not even be a question best suited for a chemist, but rather, perhaps, a physicist - in particular, a quantum physicist (as BA77's posts point out). DaveS doesn't account for unknown technologies that may exist, and may have existed at the time. After DaveS admits to his lack of qualifications and knowledge in what may be pertinent areas, he then says he is quite confident in his position - that changing water into wine would be a "miracle" - a physical impossibility that (for whatever reason) only god could achieve. As we can easily see, daveS has no grounds upon which to rest such confidence. So, one wonders, why would a particular occurrence, which daveS has no capacity to personally vet as miraculous, let alone identify the source of the transformation as "god" (which is where daveS' lack of philosophy kicks in, drawing an unwarrated conclusion), convince daveS that god exists? The answer is not found in either logic or science. I have often run into atheists that demand god "grow a limb back" or some other such challenge before they will believe (even though a limb growing back after prayer doesn't logically imply that god must exist). What all those challenges have in common is that the challenger is confident that the challenge cannot be met. They unerringly pick something they think will never (and could never) happen to be their litmus test for abandoning their atheism. IOW, as daveS' comments illustrate, they don't have to go through the trouble of educating themselves about science or philosophy, or deeply examine the arguments for god or understand their own hypocrisy (or do anything about it) when it comes to morality or accepting one set of evidence and dismissing other sets of the same kind. They don't have to do any work; they want god to meet a personal challenge. "Show me X, and I'll believe god exists." IMO, it's the lazy man's way of staying in denial; as long as their challenge is not met - observing what they, personally, would consider a miracle - they can keep insisting to themselves their doubt is reasonable - a sort of willful ignorance. As long as daveS doesn't try too hard to understand the arguments, the nature of the arguments or the evidence already at hand, he can remain a blissful agnostic.William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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PS to my #67: Obviously if I had been at that wedding and observed the transformation, I would know nothing of modern chemistry or physics. I would still have concluded it was likely a "supernatural" event, provided I was able to check that there were no tricks involved.daveS
June 15, 2016
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WJM,
1. Does water have all of the atomic elements (protons, neutrons, electrons) necessary to constitute actual wine?
I believe it has all particles that constitute wine.
2. Is there something that physically prevents the subatomic constituents of water from spontaneously transforming into a wine configuration?
Not that I know of. However, I'd like to see someone with more knowledge investigate the amount of energy required and how much would be released as this happened. Would it be possible without vaporizing the surrounding area?
3. How do you know that Jesus did not have the necessary equipment or power source? Just because something isn’t mentioned int the Bible doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.
The paper quotes a minimum of 80 kWh required to complete the reaction. I don't believe the technology existed at that time to supply this amount of energy in a matter of minutes.
4. How do you know that there is not a simpler way of reconfiguring water molecules into wine molecules – one that doesn’t require an external power source or any equipment?
You will have to ask a chemist about this. However, the paper does conclude that "thus without additional equipment [which I did not believe existed at the time] the extract from John does remain a miracle". My conclusion, which I am extremely confident of, is that if water was converted to wine as described in John, it was a miracle, and if I had been one of Jesus' disciples at that wedding, I would have considered it to be strong evidence of His divinity.daveS
June 15, 2016
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BA77: I was hoping you'd bring the relevant science to the discussion. I hope daveS avails himself of the information you're bringing to the table.William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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daveS said:
20 to 30 gallons of water was changed to wine, apparently in a matter of minutes. I explained above that water does not have all the chemical elements that constitute actual wine. Jesus did not have the necessary equipment or power source necessary to even “simply” turn the water and ambient carbon dioxide into an ethanol-water solution, let alone a high-quality wine.
Couple of questions. These may seem silly to you, but I assure you there is a serious point to these questions. 1. Does water have all of the atomic elements (protons, neutrons, electrons) necessary to constitute actual wine? 2. Is there something that physically prevents the subatomic constituents of water from spontaneously transforming into a wine configuration? 3. How do you know that Jesus did not have the necessary equipment or power source? Just because something isn't mentioned int the Bible doesn't mean it didn't exist. 4. How do you know that there is not a simpler way of reconfiguring water molecules into wine molecules - one that doesn't require an external power source or any equipment?William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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"The transformation was completed in a very short time period" Time can work Miracles? The interesting thing about Darwinists appealing to deep time to work miracles is that time itself is found to be connected to entropy:
Shining Light on Dark Energy – October 21, 2012 Excerpt: It (Entropy) explains time; it explains every possible action in the universe;,, Even gravity, Vedral argued, can be expressed as a consequence of the law of entropy. ,,, The principles of thermodynamics are at their roots all to do with information theory. Information theory is simply an embodiment of how we interact with the universe —,,, http://crev.info/2012/10/shining-light-on-dark-energy/ Time: The Unlikely Villain Excerpt: When confronted with the problem of equilibrium, most scientific materialists will appeal to the magic ingredient of time. In chapter one we saw this appeal by Nobel Laureate, George Wald: "Time is in fact the hero of the plot. Given so much time the impossible becomes possible, the possible probable, and the probable virtually certain. One has only to wait: Time itself performs the miracles." 49 However, Dr. (Harold F.) Blum, who is a materialist, points out that Wald's faith in the miraculous ingredient of time is mere wishful thinking. Prolonged time periods, he asserts, actually worsen the dilemma: "I think if I were rewriting this chapter [on the origin of life] completely, I should want to change the emphasis somewhat. I should want to play down still more the importance of the great amount of time available for highly improbable events to occur. One may take the view that the greater the time elapsed the greater should be the approach to equilibrium, the most probable state, and it seems that this ought to take precedence in our thinking over the idea that time provides the possibility for the occurrence of the highly improbable." 50 (Emphasis added) According to Dr. Blum, the magic bullet of time does not increase the likelihood that chains of DNA or proteins will form by chance chemistry. In fact, according to Dr. Blum, increasing the time factor actually ensures that any primordial soup would consist of predominantly unbonded amino acids and nucleotides! http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_ciencia_life13.htm
Moreover, at one time time itself did not exist, so apparently the miracle worker of deep time that atheists appeal to so frequently necessarily required another miracle worker to bring it into existence and endow it with its miracle working powers:
"Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970 http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html Big Bang Theory - An Overview of the main evidence Excerpt: Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 Steven W. Hawking, George F.R. Ellis, "The Cosmic Black-Body Radiation and the Existence of Singularities in our Universe," Astrophysical Journal, 152, (1968) pp. 25-36. Steven W. Hawking, Roger Penrose, "The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology," Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, series A, 314 (1970) pp. 529-548. http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
As to this claim:
Jesus did not have the necessary equipment or power source necessary to even “simply” turn the water and ambient carbon dioxide into an ethanol-water solution, let alone a high-quality wine.
You do realize that Jesus was God incarnate, i.e. The only begotten Son of God, don't you? And with that little caveat that you overlooked, He had access to the infinite Mind of God. Or do you still insanely deny the reality of your own mind just so as to deny the reality of God? i.e. In their claim that God is an illusion, the atheist also, in a shining example of poetic justice, ends becoming an illusion instead of a real person:
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession (by Coyne) that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0
As to available 'power source',
How the Power of Intention Alters Matter - Dr. William A. Tiller Excerpt: "Most people think that the vacuum is empty, but for internal self consistency of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, there is required to be the equivalent of 10 to 94 grams of mass energy, each gram being E=MC2 kind of energy. Now, that's a huge number, but what does it mean practically? Practically, if I can assume that the universe is flat, and more and more astronomical data is showing that it's pretty darn flat, if I can assume that, then if I take the volume or take the vacuum within a single hydrogen atom, that's about 10 to the minus 23 cubic centimeters. If I take that amount of vacuum and I take the latent energy in that, there is a trillion times more energy there than in all of the mass of all of the stars and all of the planets out to 20 billion light-years. That's big, that's big! And if consciousness allows you to control even a small fraction of that, creating a big bang is no problem." - Dr. William Tiller - has been a professor at Stanford U. in the Department of materials science & Engineering Quote at 23:44 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw8dKOZqoFw&feature=player_detailpage#t=1424 Cosmic coincidence spotted - Philip Ball - 2008 Excerpt: One interpretation of dark energy is that it results from the energy of empty space, called vacuum energy. The laws of quantum physics imply that empty space is not empty at all, but filled with particles popping in and out of existence. This particle ‘fizz’ should push objects apart, just as dark energy seems to require. But the theoretical value of this energy is immense — so huge that it should blow atoms apart, rather than just causing the Universe to accelerate. Physicists think that some unknown force nearly perfectly cancels out the vacuum energy, leaving only the amount seen as dark energy to push things apart. This cancellation is imperfect to an absurdly fine margin: the unknown 'energy' differs from the vacuum energy by just one part in 10^122. It seems incredible that any physical mechanism could be so finely poised as to reduce the vacuum energy to within a whisker of zero, but it seems to be so. http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080219/full/news.2008.610.html "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The main originator of Quantum Theory - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) (from Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797)(Of Note: Max Planck was a devoted Christian
bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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Marfin,
So Dave do you believe water can change to wine by evolution or life from gas by evolution, which to your mind is the bigger miracle.
Well, I don't think water evolves at all, so water to wine by evolution is an impossibility. Anyway, the episode from John has no connection to evolution. The transformation was completed in a very short time period. I don't know if there were/are any miracles involved in the formation of life on Earth.daveS
June 15, 2016
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WJM, Here's the account from John 2:
Jesus Changes Water Into Wine 2 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” 4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b] 7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” 11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
20 to 30 gallons of water was changed to wine, apparently in a matter of minutes. I explained above that water does not have all the chemical elements that constitute actual wine. Jesus did not have the necessary equipment or power source necessary to even "simply" turn the water and ambient carbon dioxide into an ethanol-water solution, let alone a high-quality wine.daveS
June 15, 2016
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Rennie, Thanks for relating that story.daveS
June 15, 2016
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HeKS,
Given this scenario, here’s my question: Keeping in mind that this agnostic has read the detailed accounts of the 2016 miracles, would it be intellectually appropriate for him to decide that the only kind of evidence that would convince him to a standard of Moral Certainty that God exists and that Christian belief is true would be witnessing overt miracles of the sort that were described as happening in 2016?
No, other evidence should be considered as well. I'm just saying that water/wine type miracles would be most convincing and easiest to evaluate for me. Understanding the miraculous nature of a water-to-wine transformation does not require any specialized background knowledge or anything beyond normal intelligence. I believe even those with intellectual disabilities would be able to comprehend it. Now if those types of miracles just don't happen anymore, then I guess that's the breaks, and one has to look at other evidence. That can be more challenging for people such as myself who are not scientists or philosophers.daveS
June 15, 2016
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daveS said:
I’m saying it’s impossible for a human to turn water into wine as Jesus is said to do in the Gospel of John.
I'm not that familiar with the story. How is Jesus said to have turned the water into wine, and why is it impossible?William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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Rennie @ #54: What a beautiful story! It is very similar in nature to many such miraculous stories I have about our lives, many of them with elements few would ever believe, many with bizarre sequences of events that seem entirely arranged from a higher perspective. When you have enough of these kinds of arranged sequences occur, you can appreciate that there is a higher plan and an unseen influence guiding and helping you with your life - if you'll let it. My best accomplishment was getting my "knowledge" out of the way and not actively stopping these miraculous sequences from continuing out of stubbornly clinging to the idea that they could not happen. Like your sister-in-law with "what's the catch" suspicion, my own thing was "well that's never going to happen" - but, I set that aside because of my wife's faith that it could and went through the motions, in the beginning, for her sake. I refused to let my skepticism and "knowledge" be what stopped us from trying and what ensued was, IMO, no less miraculous than water turning into wine. But, I was at least willing to see it, accept it, and act as if what I was seeing was true. After seeing the miraculous occur repeatedly, I realized that what I thought the world was had to be wrong. I had to choose to set aside that which I was emotionally and intellectually committed to in order to accommodate that which had been demonstrated over and over in our lives. Of course, the skeptic will pass everything off as coincidence, misperceptions, etc. No event is so miraculous that denial can be forced from those who choose to remain in it.William J Murray
June 15, 2016
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I think the real question is not whether there is evidence for God, but what world view best explains the evidence that we presently have? In the west the debate appears to currently center around two world views. On one hand, there is naturalism; on the other, there is theism. (With naturalism having been clearly dominant for the past 150-200 years.) The late Cornell university astronomer Carl Sagan was well aware of this historical conflict between naturalism and theism, or as he described it, between science and religion. In his book Broca’s Brain, in a chapter titled, “A Sunday Sermon,” Sagan appears to vacillate about the relationship of science and religion. At times he seems to be sounding a conciliatory note, but then, at other times, he’s confrontational. For example, he writes, “A universe that is infinitely old and a God who is infinitely old are, I think, equally deep mysteries.” However, a few pages earlier he praises a book by Cornell universities’ founder and president, Andrew Dickson White, entitled, A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom. Despite Sagan’s enthusiastic endorsement, White’s book has almost universally been discredited by historians of science as being more an anti-religious propaganda piece rather than a work of serious scholarship. Most historians of science reject the so-called warfare thesis put forth in White’s book as a myth. The relationship between science and the Christian faith is much more complicated and nuanced than White implies. Sagan, however, appears to uncritically swallow White’s thesis hook-line-and-sinker. As a Christian-theist, who has thought long and deeply about the basic assumptions underlying my world view, I don’t think Sagan, along with other likeminded naturalist’s, really understand the fundamental differences between the two world views. They are not really equal. For example, the naturalistic worldview that Sagan seemed to prefer, requires an infinite regress of causes. However, is such an infinite regress something that is scientifically provable? Is it even possible? Sagan thought it was at least possible. He thought it was possible we lived in an oscillating universe that has gone through an infinite number of cycles, each cycle beginning with a new Big Bang which then ultimately collapses on itself. However that idea has since been discredited. It is now known that the universe is expanding too quickly to ever collapse back on itself. So, we do not live in an oscillating universe. However, Sagan also thought that mathematics was on his side. He writes,
Humans seem to have a natural abhorrence of an infinite regression of causes, and this distaste is at the root of the most famous and most effective demonstrations of the existence of God by Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. But these thinkers lived before the infinite series was a mathematical commonplace. If the differential and integral calculus or transfinite arithmetic had been invented in Greece in the fifth century B.C., and not subsequently suppressed, the history of religion in the West might have been very different-or at any rate we would have seen less of the pretension that theological doctrine can be convincingly demonstrated by rational argument to those who reject alleged divine revelation, as Aquinas attempted in the Summa Contra Gentiles.(p.335)
The famous German mathematician David Hilbert would have disagreed. He wrote, “The in?nite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought… The role that remains for the in?nite to play is solely that of an idea.” So, according to Hilbert an infinite sequence of real causes does not exist. Of course, other mathematicians would disagree. But the fact that mathematicians disagree about the existence of actual infinities cast doubt on the idea that the theological arguments would have been easily undermined. Indeed one could just as well argue that it would have had little effect over the status quo. It certainly doesn’t provide the knockout argument that Sagan thought it would. But there is more bad news for Sagan… One of the inventors of differential and integral calculus, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, also had problems with an infinite regress. However, his argument wasn’t really mathematical but philosophical. According to Leibniz:
For a sufficient reason for existence cannot be found merely in any one individual thing or even in the whole aggregate and series of things. Let us imagine the book on the Elements of Geometry to have been eternal, one copy always being made from another; then it is clear that though we can give a reason for the present book based on the preceding book from which it was copied, we can never arrive at a complete reason, no matter how many books we may assume in the past, for one can always wonder why such books should have existed at all times; why there should be books at all, and why they should be written in this way. What is true of books is true also of the different states of the world; every subsequent state is somehow copied from the preceding one (although according to certain laws of change). No matter how far we may have gone back to earlier states, therefore, we will never discover in them a full reason why there should be a world at all, and why it should be such as it is.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Philosophical Papers and Letters, ed. by Leroy E. Loemker (Kluwer Academic, 1989); p. 486. Basically, Leibniz’s argument is that with an infinite regress you never reach the ultimate explanation. Of course, the naturalist could still argue that maybe there is no ultimate explanation. Bertrand Russell conceded as much in his 1948 BBC radio debate with Fr. Fredrick Copleston about the existence of God. However, even if that could be proven as true (which it can’t) it nevertheless has dire consequences, which we have argued about on other threads, when we begin to consider meaning and morals. (Briefly, if God is not the ultimate explanation for our existence then there is no kind of ultimate explanation in the area of meaning and morals.)john_a_designer
June 15, 2016
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Since the term 'random chance' is more a less synonymous with the word miracle, then I hold that the atheist already does believe in 'miracles'.
Pauli’s ideas on mind and matter in the context of contemporary science – Harald Atmanspacher Excerpt: “In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of ‘natural selection’ in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/paulijcs8.pdf
In fact, seeing that the atheist, nor anyone else, has ever actually seen highly sophisticated molecular machines 'randomly' coming into existence, yet the atheist claims to believe they did 'randomly' come into existence, then I hold that the atheist also has an amazing level of blind faith to believe in 'miracles' he has never seen.
Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness - Talbott - Fall 2011 Excerpt: The situation calls to mind a widely circulated cartoon by Sidney Harris, which shows two scientists in front of a blackboard on which a body of theory has been traced out with the usual tangle of symbols, arrows, equations, and so on. But there’s a gap in the reasoning at one point, filled by the words, “Then a miracle occurs.” And the one scientist is saying to the other, “I think you should be more explicit here in step two.” In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness
So it is not that the atheist lacks the faith to believe in unseen 'miracles', the atheist simply, for whatever severely misguided reason, refuses to believe in a miracle maker. Now which takes more faith, to believe in 'miracles' that happen for no reason whatsoever or to believe in miracles that happen for a purpose? I hold that it is far more scientific, and rational, to believe in miracles that happen by a miracle maker than to believe in random miracles that happen for no reason whatsoever. In fact, believing in random miracles undermines science.
The End Of Materialism? - Dr. Bruce Gordon * In the multiverse, anything can happen for no reason at all. * In other words, the materialist is forced to believe in random miracles as an explanatory principle. * In a Theistic universe, nothing happens without a reason. Miracles are therefore intelligently directed deviations from divinely maintained regularities, and are thus expressions of rational purpose. * Scientific materialism is (therefore) epistemically self defeating: it makes scientific rationality impossible. Quoted from the last power-point of this video: The Absurdity of Inflation, String Theory and The Multiverse - Dr. Bruce Gordon - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff_sNyGNSko BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Verse:
Romans 1:20-23 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Brooks & Dunn - Believe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5z-jjWyAJQ Scientific hypotheses on the origin of the body image of the Shroud - 2010 Excerpt: for example, if we consider the density of radiation that we used to color a single square centimeter of linen, to reproduce the entire image of the Shroud with a single flash of light would require fourteen thousand lasers firing simultaneously each on a different area of linen. In other words, it would take a laser light source the size of an entire building. http://www.30giorni.it/articoli_id_22597_l3.htm (Centrality Concerns) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from Death as the “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1143437869002478/?type=2&theater Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
June 15, 2016
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Marfin When a body is found and no witnesses to what happened the police are called in to investigate was there any foul play. So because there were no witnesses they will use various methods to determine what happened . If there are six gun shot wounds to the head then maybe murder and not suicide is the more likely reason but maybe if poison is found to be the cause and a vial of poison is found next to the body maybe suicide is more likely.Well the universe and all we see is the body and God and nature are the possible causes, now which to anyone's mind is the more likely and reasonable explanation.This is the crux of the matter there is not absolute proof on either side its just which explanation is to anyone`s mind the more logical and reasonable, So to me mind and intelligence did it because thats seem`s to be how you get complex arrangements of matter , now if someone chooses to believe we came from nothing and everything we see and I mean everything we see, love, life morality,maths,intelligence dogs, cats, butterflies everything came from a cloud of gas a la the big bang this does not seem reasonable to me, but thats just me. I know this sounds very simplistic , but the simple explanation is usually the right one.Marfin
June 15, 2016
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daveS: Miracles are not just confined to obvious supernatural phenomena which you cant explain. For example, my sister in law, as a single mother, for years struggled without a her own vehicle. She would commute to work and back whilst at the same time organizing her two boys (one has a mental condition) transportation to school and back. As you can imagine, this is an exhausting task by itself. A couple of months ago she was informed that her office will be relocating 50km away from her current residence. Now, for a single mom unable to afford her own vehicle, the costly exercise of moving becomes daunting and basically un-affordable. Shortly after receiving this news, she was invited to a work function where she met an older lady from a different branch. As natural conversation generally flows, the two ended up exchanging their life stories. At the end of the evening the older lady, unexpectedly, told my sister in law, that she has a car that is not being used. And she wants to give this car to her. Naturally this was internally met with skepticism. Nonetheless, 2 weeks later, the older lady's son drove this car 800km and delivered the same to my sister in law, no strings attached. It was hers to do as she wish. The car was put in her name, the whole nine yards. All of us was like "whats the catch". During her monthly visit to the local hospital for her younger son's check-up, my sister in law met a lady whilst waiting in line. The lady seemed nervous, so my sister in law asked if she was OK. The lady (nearly in tears) told her how she felt guilty for having no option but to leave her adult paraplegic son at home, to bring her very ill younger son to the hospital. She had no vehicle and the taxi's are not suited or equipped to transport a paraplegic man with wheel chair and all. My sister in law offered her a lift back home and the two exchanged numbers in case the lady ever needed a lift again. Two hours later, the lady phoned my sister in law and told her that when she arrived home, she found her paraplegic son busy choking to death. It turns out that the son had somehow slipped down the wheel chair, getting his neck caught on the wheel chair waist harness. If the lady did not arrive when she did, her son would have choked to death. When my sister in law told the above story to the lady which originally gave her the car, the lady cried saying how this confirms the feeling that was impressed upon her, to give her car away. There are miracles like these happening all the time. However i have found that those who do not wish it to be true will always try to find some natural explanation for something like this. However, I would pick to see a miracle like this any day, over seeing someone turn water into wine.Rennie
June 15, 2016
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Dave s , maybe if you left the water long enough it might evolve into wine, do you think thats possible. As a Christian I believe miracles have ceased 1 cor 13-8, they were always only to show Gods hand and prove that whoever was doing the miracle was from God and spoke on God`s behalf , we dont need miracles now we have the bible.But as for not believing water to wine because you have not witnessed it, well the beginning of life itself no one witnessed it, no one can make life from non life no matter how hard they try. The more they try they more problems it raise`s .Now if the greatest minds available cannot make it happen why would any one believe it could happen by chance over time from hydrogen gas and helium and maybe some lithium (see big bang).So Dave do you believe water can change to wine by evolution or life from gas by evolution , which to your mind is the bigger miracle.Marfin
June 14, 2016
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DaveS
It is possible to convert water and carbon from the atmosphere to an ethanol-water mixture, given special equipment and a power source.
You do know that those of us who believe that Jesus is God, consider Him the ultimate power source for everything...
Hebrews 1:3 "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power" Job 38:33-37 "Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, Or fix their rule over the earth? "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, So that an abundance of water will cover you? "Can you send forth lightnings that they may go And say to you, 'Here we are'? " Psalm 104:1-35 "Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, You are very great; You are clothed with splendor and majesty, Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain. He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; " Psalm 135:6-7 "Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; Who makes lightnings for the rain, Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries." Psalm 145:16-17 "You open Your hand And satisfy the desire of every living thing. The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds." Matthew 10:29-30 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Acts 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children." Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Psalm 36:6 "Your righteousness is like the mountains of God; Your judgments are like a great deep O LORD, You preserve man and beast." 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease."
Just over 6 years ago I did not believe or have faith in any of it, today I do.Andre
June 14, 2016
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RVB8.... Right so you are uninformed then, Mohammed is dead and buried at Al-Masjid an-Nabawi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Masjid_an-Nabawi Jesus's body on the other hand, has to this day not been found........ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_tomb But many many witnesess, accounted of seeing him alive after his death, and 11 scared, men became the boldest we have ever known enduring major pain and suffering for their witness accounts and during 40 years of persecution that followed nobody could get them to recant or change their minds. Nobody goes through that kind of torture unless it's true.Andre
June 14, 2016
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daveS @18
I would find miracles, signs, and wonders convincing. Many of my Christian friends talk about how they sense God acting in their lives, and I would also count that as evidence (if I experienced it), although maybe not as conclusive. I too have problems with the statement “exceptional claims require exceptional evidence”. Just regular evidence of the form I described above, for example water changing into wine (under controlled conditions) would suffice in my case.
I see. Ok, well I'd like to get your view on something. Let's imagine that right now, in 2016, we observe miracles happening. They are being done by a relatively small group of Christians who credit God for their works and they are widely observed by both believers and non-believers. Even militant atheists who want Christianity done away with are forced to admit these people are doing incredible things and have no idea how it's happening. However, while all this is going on, the very people who are working these miracles tell people that the miracles are serving a specific purpose in a specific time but that they will soon stop and overt miracles of this sort will not happen anymore because they will have served their intended purpose. As it happens, some of those who have been observing the miracles have also been writing about them, and along with their record of the miracles they record the comments that soon the miracles will stop because they will have served their intended purpose. A few years later, the people who were performing the miracles begin to die off until eventually all of them are gone. Nobody is performing miracles anymore. Time passes. One hundred years. Five hundred years. A thousand years. No overt miracles of the sort seen in 2016 have happened in the interim, but people have continued to believe in the historicity of those original miracles and in the existence of the God who was credited for them, and they have discovered further forms of scientific and philosophical evidence that is highly supportive of belief in God existence. One day, a skeptical but reasonable agnostic comes along. He has read the records of the 2016 miracles but he's not sure he believes God exists. When he comes in contact with some Christians, they tell him that apart from the ancient miracles there is strong scientific evidence and sound philosophical arguments pointing to God's existence. The agnostic is not sure he's convinced by these either, though he's also not sure there's a legitimately better explanation for the evidence than God's existence, even though he knows some ideas have been bandied about. In response, the Christian asks him, "What kind of evidence would convince you?" Given this scenario, here's my question: Keeping in mind that this agnostic has read the detailed accounts of the 2016 miracles, would it be intellectually appropriate for him to decide that the only kind of evidence that would convince him to a standard of Moral Certainty that God exists and that Christian belief is true would be witnessing overt miracles of the sort that were described as happening in 2016? Take care, HeKSHeKS
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I agree Andre. The odds against just the right chemicals, coming together in this place, in the universe, annd at this time, to create you/me are astronomically large. That is given the number of carbon and other necessary molecular base ingredients that exist in this universe. That particular natural miracle is more than enough for me, requiring more astonishment borders on selfishness or solopsism. I do however understand the need to interpret as miraculous events that are at most highly improbable. It is a human condition which is seen in all cultures. At the Dome of the Rock you can see (according to the faithful) the hoof print of Mohummed's horse as it jumped to heaven. I cannot say this event didn't happen, but given what we know of the laws which govern our universe this particular miracle is probably best treated as not actually true. As for the Jesus miracles of which I was an avid reader when growing up, I think it is more than safe to catagorize them in a similar manner.rvb8
June 14, 2016
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DaveS And you suspect Jesus was just a man? Can I make a suggestion? If you have time read the following book.... https://www.amazon.com/Carpenter-Changed-World-Richard-Breese/dp/1419681672 But I will say it again in case you missed it. YOU are the biggest miracle you will ever witness.Andre
June 14, 2016
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WJM, I'm saying it's impossible for a human to turn water into wine as Jesus is said to do in the Gospel of John. It is possible to convert water and carbon from the atmosphere to an ethanol-water mixture, given special equipment and a power source. Here's the conclusion of the paper:
The reaction outlined is endothermic and will not chemically proceed spontaneously. However, such a reaction leads to an increase in entropy of the system and is physically allowed. The input of 0.25 GJ -- 0.37 GJ of energy is a significant task and this is still under the assumption of a perfect catalyst, thus without additional equipment the extract from John does remain a miracle.
daveS
June 14, 2016
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