Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Determinism for Thee but Not for Me

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A professor sums up a lecture on the evolutionary explanation for why religion has been ubiquitous in every human culture:

Professor:  So, in summary, every human culture going back thousands of years has been religious because religion is either itself an adaptive behavior or it is a spandrel, a byproduct of the evolution of some other trait upon which natural selection acted.  Under the first view, religion itself was adaptive, perhaps because it enhances cooperation and cohesion within groups, and group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction.  Under the second view, perhaps religion evolved as a byproduct of adaptive selection of some other trait, although it is not clear what that other trait might have been.

Student:  Thank you for that explanation professor.  I wonder if I might ask a question.

Professor:  Of course.

Student:  Thank you.  If I understand correctly, the evolutionary process you described is fundamentally deterministic, and religion arose in all human cultures as a result of that purely deterministic process.

Professor:  Yes, that’s correct. 

Student:  But I don’t understand.  As sophisticated modern people, we understand that religious beliefs about supernatural beings and a spirit world and whatnot are false.  Why did evolution select for a false belief? 

Professor:  Excellent question.  Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief in this case.  You see, evolution selects for survival value, not for truth.  Evolution may well select for a totally false belief system if that false belief system confers a survival benefit, and in the case of religion it did exactly that.  Deterministic evolutionary processes in a sense foisted a false belief on the overwhelming majority of humans throughout thousands of years of history because that false belief system made them more fit in the Darwinian sense of that word.

Student:  So we know for a certain fact that deterministic evolutionary forces shape our belief systems.  And we know for a certain fact that any particular belief system may be, to use your word, foisted on us by evolution even if it is false.  This is fascinating.  Until very recently, almost everyone’s most cherished and strongly held beliefs were exactly of the false-belief-foisted-on-them-by-evolution variety.

Professor:  Yes, that is indeed fascinating. 

Student:  It is also deeply troubling.

Professor:  What are you talking about?

Student:  For us moderns, especially the elites like those who teach at and attend this university, scientific materialism has largely supplanted religious belief as the foundation of our outlook on the world. 

Professor:  Yes, that is true, but I have no idea why that would be troubling to you.

Student:  That’s not the troubling part.  What troubles me is that if we know that our modern belief system is caused, like everything else, by purely deterministic forces, how can we know our belief system is not just as false as the religious beliefs we scoff at?  How do we know that evolution has not foisted yet another false belief system on us, in this case scientific materialism, because it is adaptive even though it is false?

Professor:  Let not your heart be troubled.  We can know that scientific materialism is true because we have sound evidentiary reasons for believing it. 

Student:  I don’t understand.  I know Christians who say they have good reasons based on their exhaustive review of the evidence to believe what they believe. 

Professor:  Yes, yes.  But they have deluded themselves.  Their evidence is not as good as the evidence we have that supports science and materialism. 

Student:  I think you missed the point I was making.  You said that our belief systems are the result of purely deterministic processes.  Either that is true or it is not.  If it is true, then evolution forces us to believe in scientific materialism just as it formerly forced theists to believe in religion.  The very essence of determinism is that it does not allow us to choose based on any ground, including an evaluation of the evidence.  And this is what troubles me.  I read one of the Christian philosophers.  He said that if my thoughts are utterly determined by material forces, why should I believe them to be true?  And after listening to your lecture today, I begin to take his point.  Why indeed should we prefer one deterministically caused belief over another?  After all, we say that we know that throughout history, the vast majority of people held a false deterministically caused belief.

Professor:  You aren’t listening to me.  We have good reasons to believe what we do.  Religious bumpkins don’t.

Student:  No, you aren’t listening to me.  Either determinism causes our beliefs or it does not.  By its very nature, determinism is an all-or-nothing proposition.  What gives us the right to say other people’s beliefs are mere evolutionary adaptations but not our own?  Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid.  It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it.

Comments
Kairosfocus @195,
PPS, notice how quickly an important topic was dragged off course? Telling.
Yes, and it's also telling to see the real reasons behind the objections to scientific observations. They're not scientific, but moral, ideological, and religious/anti-religious. The OP was about the inconsistent application of determinism--perhaps, the determinism of the gaps. From a purely scientific and mathematical foundation, we observe many things as apparently deterministic until we look closely enough at certain events. This results in a conclusion compatible with the Mandelbrot set and with Gödel's incompleteness theorems. Nevertheless, we also see a struggle among some competent and prominent scientists against determinism, but only in some areas and not in others, indicating some degreee of ideological pollution. Incidentally, this same pathology also emerges in topics related to the Intelligent Design paradigm, which has repeatedly demonstrated pragmatic benefits to advancement in science. The assumption that non-coding DNA is junk is one good example. -QQuerius
December 23, 2021
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Those who willfully, persistently reject God ...
This is an example of a statement that several people here make that make me wonder whether or not I'm dealing with biological automatons. Nobody here is rejecting God, what we're "rejecting" is a particular conceptual description of reality that makes no sense to us. To willfully and knowingly "reject God" we'd have to know what reality is, how it works, and know that what it is we're rejecting is, in fact, THE actual God of the actual reality as you and others describe it. You can argue until you're blue in the face that we should know it, that there is plenty of evidence and sound argument for any reasonable person to conclude that the concept of God and reality as presented is warranted and true. However, even if we are flawed in our reasoning or emotionally invested against the idea, the fact remains that we do not believe in that conceptual description. So, we cannot be "rejecting God" because we don't know that what we are not believing is the actual God and the actual arrangement of reality. There are lots of concepts of God and reality I reject for exactly the same reasons - they don't make sense to me rationally and such concepts, if I were to adopt them, would not be enjoyable. Please note the most recent post by Mr. Arrington about his sister, who IMO serves as a shining example of how to live in love, joy and hope in what appears to be a very tragic world full of suffering. Note that Mr. Arrington ended that post with a poignant and deeply meaningful song about how such joy, hope and love lives on even after the death of his sister: he knows he will see her again in a beautiful place with their suffering behind them. This is also the reason I live in joy, love and hope, even after my wife died in early 2017; the knowledge that I will be with her again as husband and wife in a world where our suffering is behind us and we have eternity in front of us to enjoy together. The concept of God and reality you offer here provides me only with eternal suffering no matter what I do now. I reject that concept not only on grounds of reason and logic (even if, as you say, that logic and reasoning is flawed,) but also because it provides no path forward for me to continue in love, joy and hope. I choose to go forward with love, joy and hope, and there is only one kind of conceptual arrangement of God and reality that provides that; the kind where choosing to live in love, joy and hope is all the criteria that matters to achieve the ends of our eternal paradise together. If I am bending or breaking logic and ignoring evidence to achieve my capacity to live this way, so be it, because I cannot endure living any other way.William J Murray
December 23, 2021
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PPS, notice how quickly an important topic was dragged off course? Telling.kairosfocus
December 23, 2021
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Folks, the above shows part of why in the Internet Atheist and skeptic age, there is little point in amateurs trying to answer and debate with such. There will never be a concession of soundness, and there will be endless tangents and twists. The proper recourse is to places where there are adequate reference resources [thousands of years worth] and experts able to bring to bear nuanced multifaceted answers in a nutshell with backup at their fingertips. Also, there are going to be serious top flight debates among people who are informed at graduate level. The notorious fact that notorious internet skeptics avoid such places but rush to spin rhetorical webs in dealing with laypeople they can goad shows a saddening lot about motivation and the fundamental bankruptcy of the rhetorical case being made. Here at UD, we have recently had occasion to direct people to places they can get expert level responses, and we are further constrained by the focus of this blog: the design inference as an empirical matter, related science issues and wider implications and context, including up to the defence of our civilisation from consequences of in the end utterly self-refuting but institutionally entrenched ideologies. KF PS: One of the fundamental flaws above is failure to understand the nature of death. Disintegration or separation seems to be key, body without spirit thence decay. But there is no basis for seeing the rational soul as a composite of prior components that can be broken apart so it dissipates. Thus, inherent potentially infinite duration, i.e. once there, forever there going forward. The issue is quality not quantity. So, on the issue of torments, torture etc: what combustion or transfer of thermal energy can affect the immaterial soul? None. So, fire is metaphorical, speaking of inner pain due to passions, regrets etc. And the Gehenna model seems pivotal; an ill managed dump. Those who willfully, persistently reject God and the light they have from him get their wish, together. That makes hell, as we have seen in foretaste in several atheistical dictatorships over the past 100 years. F/N a sampler https://bible.org/article/258-theology-questions-and-answerskairosfocus
December 23, 2021
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Kairosfocus @191,
WJM, again, this is not a theology blog and there are other places where you can engage relevant experts. KF
Sorry. I recognize that this applies to me as well. -QQuerius
December 20, 2021
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William J Murray, Ok, I will. The short answer has to do with our perspectives, our priorities, and our free will.
Here’s the problem: if that price has been paid, why is anyone still going to hell? You might respond, “because they rejected what Jesus did for them.” My answer: so what? Isn’t that rejection itself a sin? Didn’t Jesus already pay the price for that?
From my perspective, the amazingly brilliant, creative, and loving Creator must deal with a powerful but rebellious being also created with free will. This evil being and those who follow him had full knowledge of what they were doing to creation, and so God specifically prepared a place for their ultimate and total destruction. Getting dumped into a “lake of fire,” perhaps something like our conception of a black hole, and would be a very fitting termination of a being that caused and continues to cause all the horrors that we as humans have had to endure, along with our own physical death. Recognizing the gross unfairness of what was introduced into a “very good” creation, the Creator determined to rescue as much as possible from the judgment and destruction demanded by justice. He clothed himself in a human body and suffered massively to completely pay for all our transgressions, past, present, and future, but still enable us to retain our independence and free will. The Bible says that God himself will wipe away our tears. But the Creator will not rescind our gift of free will, creativity, and independence for which He created us “in His image.” We can choose to love and trust the Creator or we can believe the lies of the enemy and choose not to accept the gift of God just as in a few days no one can force you to accept any gift. If you hate someone and refuse to be reconciled, you can send their gift back or dump it in the trash.
How is it fair or just that the price for Jane’s or Jack’s sin gets paid for twice – once by Jesus, and then again by Jane and Jack? If the fine is paid, it is paid regardless of any sins anyone commits. Jesus paid for ALL of it, right?
Yes, Jesus really did pay for all of it—as Jesus said to his disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane,
He told them, “My soul is crushed with grief to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” – Matthew 26:38 (NLT)
Incidentally, "Gethsemane" is a corruption into English of two Hebrew words gat (oil/wine press) and shemanim (oils), the place where olives are crushed to a pulp and olive oil is pressed out. Is it fair that Jesus also had to suffer for all humanity, knowing that many of them would refuse this gift? No, it wasn’t, but that’s how gifts and free will works. Let’s consider an example appropriate for this time of year. According to CNBC, $3 billion worth of gift cards go unused each year, which according to Consumer Reports totaled about 19% in 2005. Why are people not using these free gifts? There are a lot of possible reasons and they vary between people. Here's a few: • Forgot about the card and lost it—it wasn’t worth very much anyway. • That place is way below my social class. • Was too busy partying and playing video games to drive there. • Not accepting their stupid gift card—I’ll just give it to someone else. Likewise, according to the Bible, some people choose to "enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season," others attempt to justify themselves with the bitterness of their own suffering by incorrectly blaming the Creator for their grief. Others think that Jesus is just for stupid rednecks, not for a highly intelligent, cultured, and educated person such as themselves (haha). Some are too busy making boatloads of money or trying to climb the ladder to power and fame. Some have mental or philosophical stumbling blocks or have been told that it’s all a myth. Still others have had terrible things done to them by people claiming (often falsely) to be Christians. I’m sure I’ve missed some other reasons. The Creator will make sure that everyone will get a fair chance! He even created beings “covered with eyes” (eewww) who continually say “Holy, holy, holy,” NOT because the Creator is egotistical, but rather because they’re assigned to watch and judge His actions and decisions constantly. I hope this helps a little. If not you, then perhaps someone else. -QQuerius
December 20, 2021
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WJM, again, this is not a theology blog and there are other places where you can engage relevant experts. KFkairosfocus
December 20, 2021
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Querius, Let's start over by just assuming, arguendo, that Jesus can and did pay the price for all human sin in his 6 hours on the cross. Here's the problem: if that price has been paid, why is anyone still going to hell? You might respond, "because they rejected what Jesus did for them." My answer: so what? Isn't that rejection itself a sin? Didn't Jesus already pay the price for that? How is it fair or just that the price for Jane's or Jack's sin gets paid for twice - once by Jesus, and then again by Jane and Jack? If the fine is paid, it is paid regardless of any sins anyone commits. Jesus paid for ALL of it, right?William J Murray
December 20, 2021
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JVL said:
You’re not interested in finding out. And I suspect there are lots of others just like you. You’ve figured things out so you’re done exploring. And no one ever has proven you wrong so you must be doing it right.
Yeah, but we don't walk around thinking that they happen "by magic." How do you know I'm "done exploring?" I've been proved wrong several times. You're apparently just making up some kind of negative stuff to say about me from your perspective that you have no way of knowing. There are many things I'm not interested in finding out because I only have so much time and learning how to build a functioning airplane, or learning how to do calculus or boolean algebra, etc. are just not that high on my list of priorities.
I don’t know that. See what I did there? Instead of just trusting you or going with your statement for the sake of arguing I can just decided not to trust you.
When someone asks me a question, I answer them honestly. When someone makes an incorrect statement about my views, I correct them. If someone says, "let's assume arguendo ..." I'm perfectly willing to do so for the sake of the argument. Isn't that how this is supposed to work?
I prefer to spend time discussing things with people who actually care about other people. I have no reason to think you do.
I can't help it if people invent stuff about me in their mind to suit their own agenda.
Your views are unfalsifiable,
Sure they are falsifiable. They could have discovered that matter really does exist, or that consciousness is not primary, or that NDEs are all caused by some common factor, etc.
...nothing anyone can say will change your mind.
BA77 falsified a belief of mine about the universe not too long ago and I admitted it right here in this forum. In the L&FP 48 thread @440, I admitted I was wrong about an argument I made some time back about preference and enjoyment and he was right about the inescapable nature of the pursuit of true statements.
You think the whole thing is just an amusing story that plays out in your perceptions but might not exist beyond that point.
Nope. Never said that. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that things exist beyond my perceptions. An infinite number of things.
You’ve got your football and some blogs where you can look superior to both ‘sides’ so that’s okay. You’re complacent and flaccid.
I tend to think that people who attempt to mind-read me are either projecting or just imagining things about me that make them feel better about themselves and their own perspective.William J Murray
December 20, 2021
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Ram @187,
Boring. I’m not interested in your “commitment.” How old are you? 12?
No, I'm actually 10 years old. And how old are you?
Answer the questions or not. It doesn’t really matter in this casual forum. If you’re interested then answer. If not, okay then.
You sound like William J Murray. As I wrote @166, I'll answer your questions after you answer mine. Bye bye. -QQuerius
December 19, 2021
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Querius, Boring. I'm not interested in your "commitment." How old are you? 12? Answer the questions or not. It doesn't really matter in this casual forum. If you're interested then answer. If not, okay then. --Ramram
December 19, 2021
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Ram @184,
I’m not playing games. If you have a point to make regarding my questions, using black holes, forthrightly make it.
I'm not playing games either. Just like in my responses to Seversky and William J Murray, I'd like to see some commitment on your part before I continue. From my description @153 . . .
Let’s say at some time in the future, the punishment for someone found guilty of a murder is to be jettisoned at high velocity toward a black hole in a radiation-resistant capsule. At some point the difference in gravity will be massively different between their head and feet, resulting in their death by being turned into spaghetti. The death they will experience will be painful but quick, depending on their initial velocity. They won’t even notice their passing over the Schwarzschild radius and their body will ultimately be powdered and crushed into the singularity. QUESTION 2: What will this event look like from an observer stationed at a safe distance away?
-QQuerius
December 19, 2021
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JVL @167, 177, 179, 181, and 183, Even though we often disagree on specifics, I sincerely appreciate your seeing my frustration at dealing with William J Murray and some others here who simply dismiss or pontificate on what took a lot longer to research, articulate, and support. Let's consider one recent example.
William J Murray: Suffering is entirely subjective.
I'm glad you also noticed and pointed out the pristine absence of any supporting evidence (other an personal opinion) as to WHY this should be the case. Certainly physical pain could be identified through nerve participation, which can be quantified. When time is considered, a momentary pinch is certainly different than persistent pain--the area under the curve as you also noted. https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/pain-management/understanding-the-effect-of-pain-and-how-the-human-body-responds-26-02-2018/ Regarding psychological pain, here's a quote from a paper published on PubMed on chronic stress:
A physiologic stress response may be evoked by fear or perceived threat to safety, status, or well-being and elicits the secretion of sympathetic catecholamines (epinephrine and norepinepherine) and neuroendocrine hormones (cortisol) to promote survival and motivate success. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25035267/
Thus, this type of suffering can also be quantified, at least in theory, by the persistence of catecholamines in the bloodstream. See https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/catecholamines All this differentiates a scientific mindset apart from the usual orgy of opinion and hysteria that we have to endure here on an at least nominally scientific website. Thank you. -QQuerius
December 19, 2021
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Querius: If you follow my path in that question, I promise to give you frank answers to what you raised. Some of them might surprise you. I'm not playing games. If you have a point to make regarding my questions, using black holes, forthrightly make it. --Ramram
December 19, 2021
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William Murray: Does everyone who doesn’t know how those things work believe they work by magic? Or is there some reason you think I in particular do? You're not interested in finding out. And I suspect there are lots of others just like you. You've figured things out so you're done exploring. And no one ever has proven you wrong so you must be doing it right. What’s the point of saying my reasoning is limited unless you can point out where it is wrong? Just something I noticed that wasn't apparent at first. But I got it now. 2. I believe they are real people.’ I don't know that. See what I did there? Instead of just trusting you or going with your statement for the sake of arguing I can just decided not to trust you. 3. What difference does it make why I would do things that make the world a better place? Your apparent assertion is that I do not. How would you know that? I prefer to spend time discussing things with people who actually care about other people. I have no reason to think you do. All those little . . . dots.
Look down there. Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man. Free of income tax - the only way you can save money nowadays.
-- as said by Orson Welles in the character of Harry Lime from The Third Man. Your views are unfalsifiable, nothing anyone can say will change your mind. You think the whole thing is just an amusing story that plays out in your perceptions but might not exist beyond that point. You've got your football and some blogs where you can look superior to both 'sides' so that's okay. You're complacent and flaccid.JVL
December 19, 2021
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JVL said:
Nor do you understand the physics behind how it works. So it’s just so much magic to you, correct? Just like smart phones and computers.
Does everyone who doesn't know how those things work believe they work by magic? Or is there some reason you think I in particular do?
You’re not even paying attention! I have no idea about Querius‘s analogy, I didn’t even read it. I’m saying your level of reasoning is limited.
What's the point of saying my reasoning is limited unless you can point out where it is wrong?
Why should you raise a finger to affect those flickering images that appear on your internal mental screen? You don’t even believe they’re real people. Or you can’t be sure anyway.
1. I never said I don't believe they are real people. 2. I believe they are real people.' 3. What difference does it make why I would do things that make the world a better place? Your apparent assertion is that I do not. How would you know that?William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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William J Murray: I’m saying I don’t know how to build or fly a plane. Nor do you understand the physics behind how it works. So it's just so much magic to you, correct? Just like smart phones and computers. Yes, I could probably consult instructions on how to do basic calculus, do some work on my own to see if the principles/equations bore out, and come back with an answer. You could just look up that one result! What's the area beneath the normal curve! In fact it's set up specifically so that the area is 1, that's done so that you can use it to 'measure' probabilities and a bunch of other stuff that determines how much money you spend on your insurance which you don't understand. You begin with “nope,” but then immediately afterward you do the same thing: “your argument fails because you don’t know enough about logic.” You're not even paying attention! I have no idea about Querius's analogy, I didn't even read it. I'm saying your level of reasoning is limited. Is this an attempt at humor? If you are serious, how do you know I’m not doing anything to make the world better?” Why should you raise a finger to affect those flickering images that appear on your internal mental screen? You don't even believe they're real people. Or you can't be sure anyway. It's all just a game. Pop another brewski and shout at the quarterback. That'll be fun.JVL
December 19, 2021
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JVL said:
So . . . planes are just magic then? You get in this tube, it bumps and grinds, makes lots of noise, good image on the windows, very entertaining, eventually you get off and it looks like someplace different. Good fun eh!
I don't understand what you mean by this. I didn't say no correct information exists on how to build or fly a plane. I'm saying I don't know how to build or fly a plane. When someone tells me how, I don't know that's how until I put that information to the test and it works.
No, you could look it up!
Yes, I could probably consult instructions on how to do basic calculus, do some work on my own to see if the principles/equations bore out, and come back with an answer. But I was uninterested in doing that because I already knew that Querius' "solution" to the problem - mapping out suffering as if it could be represented by geometric area - was intrinsically, logically faulty. Suffering does not = geometric area on a plane. Or even cubic volume. At best, he is using a convenient analogy representing only one pertinent aspect of suffering - duration.
Nope, I’m not getting involved in the weird theological argument you’re involved with. I am saying that your reasoning abilities seem to be rather limited based on well known and understood reasoning tasks.
You begin with "nope," but then immediately afterward you do the same thing: "your argument fails because you don't know enough about logic."
I have to say: the agent they assigned to you is doing ‘her’ job well; she’s keeping you happy to just pontificate but not actually do anything to change the world for the better.
Is this an attempt at humor? If you are serious, how do you know I'm not doing anything to make the world better?"William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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William J Murray: I don’t know that’s how a car works until I experience “how a car works” (in terms of how to operate it) and l I successfully operate a car and match that successful operation against his description. So . . . planes are just magic then? You get in this tube, it bumps and grinds, makes lots of noise, good image on the windows, very entertaining, eventually you get off and it looks like someplace different. Good fun eh! I don’t even know who you or Querius are, and I’m supposed to “know” that something is true because you say so? No, you could look it up! You could ask someone else. You could actually do some work to see if it's true. But you won't. You're happy just trusting some magic but not others. You don't care about mathematical reasoning so you'll just ignore it. Otherwise, as I said, all you’re doing is trying to discredit the person making the argument; you’re not actually criticizing the argument on merits. Nope, I'm not getting involved in the weird theological argument you're involved with. I am saying that your reasoning abilities seem to be rather limited based on well known and understood reasoning tasks. Do you understand how that is not a refutation for any actual argument? You don't have to be so pedantic. You're not the only person who understands how to make an argument. I have to say: the agent they assigned to you is doing 'her' job well; she's keeping you happy to just pontificate but not actually do anything to change the world for the better. The tax income is good for us . . . do you need a new lazy boy recliner by the way? I think 'there's' a sale on.JVL
December 19, 2021
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JVL said:
And then someone tells you: hey, the area under this curve is 0.5 square units. And you say: I don’t know that so I won’t agree.
I didn't disagree. I said I don't know. If someone tells me how a car works, I don't know that's how a car works until I experience "how a car works" (in terms of how to operate it) and l I successfully operate a car and match that successful operation against his description. Do you believe as true everything other people tell you? I suspect not. I can't begin to count the number of things I was taught in school, or which figures of authority such as "news" outlets, or which my parents taught me from their own experience, that turned out not to be true in my experience. I don't even know who you or Querius are, and I'm supposed to "know" that something is true because you say so?
You think you’re being logical and rational but you’re ignoring whole swathes of logic that many, many, many people have learned how to navigate in the last 300+ years. That logic and reasoning you just ignore. You don’t want to know and you won’t accept someone else telling you it’s true. A whole lot of someone else’s in fact. Like everyone who actually has taken a year’s worth of Calculus. I guess there’s a lot of people who can reason about a lot of things that are beyond you.
Or, you can actually point out where my arguments actually, logically fail and explain how they fail. Otherwise, as I said, all you're doing is trying to discredit the person making the argument; you're not actually criticizing the argument on merits. Person A presents logical argument. Person 2 says, "you don't know enough about logic, so your argument fails." Do you understand how that is not a refutation for any actual argument?William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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William J Murray Let me see if I understand your logic: On that screen that you perceive the world unfolding on you see things like computers, cars, airplanes, television transmissions all or most of which is just some kind of magic for you. Very entertaining magic, some good stories sometimes. You even interact with some of these magical devices sometimes: you press your fingers against a grid of letters to publish messages on some 'website' and you get replies from other 'people'. What great fun! You sometimes drive a car and, gosh, it actually does what you've been told it's supposed to do. Well, mostly, as long as you follow the rules: gas it up, change the oil, etc. You may have even ridden in an airplane, how that works . . . well, you just have to accept it don't you? Like when Captain Kirk uses his phaser; it's just a story. But you accept it all. And then someone tells you: hey, the area under this curve is 0.5 square units. And you say: I don't know that so I won't agree. Computers, tick. Phones, tick. Automobiles, tick. Airplanes, tick. Twenty-two guys bashing into each other on a field trying to put an inflated spheroid across a line on the ground at some far distance location but I can watch it on a 'tele-vision', tick. The area under a particular curve is a particular value . . . you don't know. Not: okay, if you say so. Not: I'll go with that just to see your bigger point. You don't know. AND you're not going to bother to look it up or learn the logic behind the statement? You think you're being logical and rational but you're ignoring whole swathes of logic that many, many, many people have learned how to navigate in the last 300+ years. That logic and reasoning you just ignore. You don't want to know and you won't accept someone else telling you it's true. A whole lot of someone else's in fact. Like everyone who actually has taken a year's worth of Calculus. I guess there's a lot of people who can reason about a lot of things that are beyond you. Maybe you should change the channel more often on that narrowly focused mental video screen you like watching.JVL
December 19, 2021
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Suffering is different from just physical pain. Suffering is largely a personal, mental state. Yes, one suffers when they feel physical ill or in physical pain, but the qualities of one's mental state can reduce the suffering by using dissociative techniques. Also, one can use various clinically-demonstrated methods that rewire the brain to react differently to physical discomforts. Just the knowledge that the physical pain or suffering will soon be over greatly mitigates the suffering. Hope mitigates suffering. Now imagine the quality of suffering one would endure in total abject misery and despair and unbearable physical pain with no hope of it ever ending and that goes on forever. That's a unique quality of a unique kind of suffering that can only be experienced by someone in that situation. You cannot experience that suffering unless you are in that situation - jst as you cannot experience the suffering of the loss of a child or spouse unless you experience that situation as the person who is going through that - because, even then, each experience of grief is different from every other such experience. To say that you can experience that suffering any particular person experiences in such a situation without being that person in that circumstance is nonsense. To "pay the price" of any person going through eternal suffering, you'd have to go through eternal suffering as that person because the "eternal" aspect that contributes that special quality to the suffering cannot be experienced any other way, AND that person suffers uniquely because of their own individual personality and mental structure. To say that this price in suffering can be paid by reducing suffering to a commodity like area or volume, taking it out of it's unique eternal quality and personal context and transformed into some super-intense finite period of time one person - Jesus - can experience for, let's say, hundreds of millions of people all at the same time, is to ignore what suffering actually is and ignores the unique quality of "eternal" torment. You might as well say that suffering can be reduced to a dollar amount and Jesus writes a check to cover it - and Jesus has an infinite amount of money (meaning, after paying the price, Jesus has a eternity of joy and happiness. Wow. What did Jesus pay, a fe) Jesus didn't even pay the price for a single human, much less what, hundreds of millions? Billions? He spent what, 6 hours suffering? WOW! That should cover the eternal suffering of potentially billions of people. Now, some account for the atonement of those hundreds of millions being bought with the blood sacrifice of Jesus as a being uniquely capable of providing the sacrifice necessary for any number of people to be absolved of their sin. I think that's how people in the Old Testament handled their sin problem - blood sacrifice - and Jesus supposedly made the blood sacrifice for everyone on into the future. Sheesh. God requires a blood sacrifice to get you out of the situation he himself created you into. Sounds like the premise of a horror movie.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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To clarify something I said earlier:
As I said in response to Querius, I don’t know anything about calculus whatsoever, and Querius saying what the answer is, is not the same as me being able to work the problem out on my own and thus knowing the answer. Querius telling me what the answer is is not me knowing what the answer is; it’s me knowing what Querius is telling me the answer is
Meaning, since I don't know how to do the calculus, Querius might be wrong when he tells me the answer, so I cannot know that the answer he tells me is correct. Therefore, despite Querius telling me an answer, I don't know whether or not that is the correct answer. Hence my answer, "I don't know."William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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Querius said:
If you can experience suffering, you can measure it.
Suffering is entirely subjective. You can personally compare your own experiences of suffering against each other to reach a rough comparative value; you cannot compare it (measure it) against other people's experiences of suffering. Seversky said:
You can no more use geometrical calculations to quantify an unquantifiable metaphysical concept such as justice than you can estimate a numerical value for the beauty of a great painting.
Exactly. You cannot measure subjective experiences like how beautiful you find a thing, or love, or suffering, other than a rough comparison of your own experiences against each other. As I said, when Querius can show us the mathematical equations that transform objectively quantified units of suffering (and the information that describes how this is objectively achieved) into units of area, he'll have an argument. Otherwise, he's just baldly asserting that suffering can be successfully mapped as area in some objective sense. I suppose the infinite arc is supposed to represent eternity (eternal suffering) and the amount of suffering one experiences is represented by the finite area under the arc (1.5) and the box represents Jesus going through all the collected infinite suffering of everyone (adding up billions of 1.5 suffering amounts) in a finite time. I'll show how this description fails without doing any calculus. Querius is mistakenly thinking that suffering can be mapped out and accounted for purely by reducing it to "area" in terms of duration, but that does not, by a long shot, account for all the qualities of suffering. It cannot be mapped out as area or volume because that still does not account for specific qualities of "eternal suffering." Here's one reason why: in eternal suffering, there is the quality of it being never-ending with no hope whatsoever of relief. Jesus suffering for a finite time while knowing that it will end cannot ever contain or account for that quality of suffering the people who go to hell have to endure. Thus, Jesus cannot logically have paid the same price as those who have to endure that aspect of suffering in eternal torment.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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JVL said:
Again, this is BASIC STUFF. So many aspects of scientific reasoning and argumentation depend on being able to track mathematical discussions, some much more complicated that the above. And you think you can just ignore all of that because . . . because . . .
Feel free to direct me to any argument I have made that relies on calculus, or fails because I don't know how to do calculus. Otherwise, you're just looking for a reason to discredit the person making the argument; you're not actually addressing the argument on its merits.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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Querius said:
If you can experience suffering, you can measure it. And if you can measure it, you can plot it over time. And if you plot it over time, you can find the total amount of suffering by computing or measuring the total amount of area under this infinite curve, which in certain cases yields a finite number, hence a finite amount of suffering.
Can you direct us to the equations that mathematically transform units of suffering into units of of area?William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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Here's the thing: do you accept a logical argument because someone impressive says it is logical, or do you accept that it is logical because you work the logic out for yourself? When someone purports to be telling you a fact about a thing, do you then believe you know that fact about that thing? You don't; all you know as a fact is that the person told you something he represented as a fact about that thing. Is the above argument about "knowledge of facts" logical because I say so and because I have credibility? Absolutely not. Work the logic out for yourself. Logical arguments stand on their own merits, not on the credibility of the person making the argument.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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JVL said:
I’m sorry but do you expect us to take you seriously when you cannot deal with even the basic, first-year, undergraduate mathematics? Do you really think your reasoning abilities are top-notch when you can’t even repeat a numerical answer that was explicitly given to you multiple times?
As I have said many times, no, I don't expect anyone to take me seriously. KF and I had a similar exchange about my lack of "credibility." I don't want anyone to accept any part of any argument I make because they find me "credible." An argument stands on it's own merits, not on the credibility of the person making the argument. Whether or not you take me seriously for any reason has no bearing on the merits of any argument I make. As I said in response to Querius, I don't know anything about calculus whatsoever, and Querius saying what the answer is, is not the same as me being able to work the problem out on my own and thus knowing the answer. Querius telling me what the answer is is not me knowing what the answer is; it's me knowing what Querius is telling me the answer is. See, that's how logic works.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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Vividbleu @163:
This is funny you got me ROFL. Honest answers? This from someone who admits you dishonesty argued for things you don’t even believe in.
There was nothing dishonest about it; I never said I believed in it. I've said many times here that I make all kinds of arguments just to see where the argument leads. Note how I've recently started making an argument FOR KF's duties, which I've been arguing against for months, just to see if I can do it and to see where it leads. The reason I argue many different points of view is because only ever arguing for one perspective does nothing but help blind a person to other perspectives and reduces their chances of finding a better perspective because they are too busy defending their own. I enjoy working out different perspectives through interactive arguments.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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Querius said
You gotta be joking. What do you do at a grocery store? For someone who doesn’t know that 0.5 is a finite number that’s less than 3, you sure put a lot of opinions and arguments on parade.
But, that is not how you worded your question to me. If you had asked me which number is greater, 1.5 or 3, I would have answered 3. I don't know anything about calculus, so you telling me an answer is not the same as me actually knowing the answer because I can work the problem out myself. So, I answered honestly with "I don't know."
But, I assume you’re not paralyzed and can watch YouTube videos. Here’s one contains the answer to QUESTION 2 in a few seconds:
I did not agree to watch videos. In any event, someone on youtube telling me what something would look like is not the same as me knowing what it would look like.William J Murray
December 19, 2021
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