Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Determinism for Thee but Not for Me

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A professor sums up a lecture on the evolutionary explanation for why religion has been ubiquitous in every human culture:

Professor:  So, in summary, every human culture going back thousands of years has been religious because religion is either itself an adaptive behavior or it is a spandrel, a byproduct of the evolution of some other trait upon which natural selection acted.  Under the first view, religion itself was adaptive, perhaps because it enhances cooperation and cohesion within groups, and group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction.  Under the second view, perhaps religion evolved as a byproduct of adaptive selection of some other trait, although it is not clear what that other trait might have been.

Student:  Thank you for that explanation professor.  I wonder if I might ask a question.

Professor:  Of course.

Student:  Thank you.  If I understand correctly, the evolutionary process you described is fundamentally deterministic, and religion arose in all human cultures as a result of that purely deterministic process.

Professor:  Yes, that’s correct. 

Student:  But I don’t understand.  As sophisticated modern people, we understand that religious beliefs about supernatural beings and a spirit world and whatnot are false.  Why did evolution select for a false belief? 

Professor:  Excellent question.  Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief in this case.  You see, evolution selects for survival value, not for truth.  Evolution may well select for a totally false belief system if that false belief system confers a survival benefit, and in the case of religion it did exactly that.  Deterministic evolutionary processes in a sense foisted a false belief on the overwhelming majority of humans throughout thousands of years of history because that false belief system made them more fit in the Darwinian sense of that word.

Student:  So we know for a certain fact that deterministic evolutionary forces shape our belief systems.  And we know for a certain fact that any particular belief system may be, to use your word, foisted on us by evolution even if it is false.  This is fascinating.  Until very recently, almost everyone’s most cherished and strongly held beliefs were exactly of the false-belief-foisted-on-them-by-evolution variety.

Professor:  Yes, that is indeed fascinating. 

Student:  It is also deeply troubling.

Professor:  What are you talking about?

Student:  For us moderns, especially the elites like those who teach at and attend this university, scientific materialism has largely supplanted religious belief as the foundation of our outlook on the world. 

Professor:  Yes, that is true, but I have no idea why that would be troubling to you.

Student:  That’s not the troubling part.  What troubles me is that if we know that our modern belief system is caused, like everything else, by purely deterministic forces, how can we know our belief system is not just as false as the religious beliefs we scoff at?  How do we know that evolution has not foisted yet another false belief system on us, in this case scientific materialism, because it is adaptive even though it is false?

Professor:  Let not your heart be troubled.  We can know that scientific materialism is true because we have sound evidentiary reasons for believing it. 

Student:  I don’t understand.  I know Christians who say they have good reasons based on their exhaustive review of the evidence to believe what they believe. 

Professor:  Yes, yes.  But they have deluded themselves.  Their evidence is not as good as the evidence we have that supports science and materialism. 

Student:  I think you missed the point I was making.  You said that our belief systems are the result of purely deterministic processes.  Either that is true or it is not.  If it is true, then evolution forces us to believe in scientific materialism just as it formerly forced theists to believe in religion.  The very essence of determinism is that it does not allow us to choose based on any ground, including an evaluation of the evidence.  And this is what troubles me.  I read one of the Christian philosophers.  He said that if my thoughts are utterly determined by material forces, why should I believe them to be true?  And after listening to your lecture today, I begin to take his point.  Why indeed should we prefer one deterministically caused belief over another?  After all, we say that we know that throughout history, the vast majority of people held a false deterministically caused belief.

Professor:  You aren’t listening to me.  We have good reasons to believe what we do.  Religious bumpkins don’t.

Student:  No, you aren’t listening to me.  Either determinism causes our beliefs or it does not.  By its very nature, determinism is an all-or-nothing proposition.  What gives us the right to say other people’s beliefs are mere evolutionary adaptations but not our own?  Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid.  It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it.

Comments
Theologian R.C. Sproul on the tension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ5cclvdWjozweston
December 16, 2021
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In regards to determinism... I've wrestled with calvinism/determinism off and on... once saying I was a 5-point calvinist who now waffles somewhere near it. I'd suggest watching this discussion/debate between William lane Craig and James White for Calvinism vs. Molinism in regards to the problem of evil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcN-fisQRk Here is my question: If we know how the world will turn out (Revelation shows us)... can we actually choose to do something that conflicts with what will ultimately happen? I do believe I'm choosing exactly what I want to do... I'm not going against my will.... and I understand I'm liable for my decisions and sins. it's an interesting tension we live in seemingly though. God is sovereign and his plan will come to pass, and there isn't anything we can do to change it. I'm thankful for that. I do not miss all the other philosophical questions and issues that are raised with determinism, but just like the skeptics who raise all the theological issues, I think we need to let those things rest with God. Just because we can't fully grasp it doesn't pose a problem. We can look to the person of Christ and see God's character, as he is the exact imprint of the father's nature. That's where I'm at anyways. However, if you are a materialist, you are a meat robot with no purpose at all following your chemical reactions that were determined by the creative force of natural selection. Chemicals in your brain fizzing, with no way to be sure your deductions are reliable or authentic. Patent absurdity.zweston
December 16, 2021
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@133. Maybe the glory and the joy of those who would be saved live with him was worth the loss of the others. Does your ultimate decision to be a Christian rest on answering this question?zweston
December 16, 2021
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William J Murray @130,
Can you get to the point you’re trying to make? I have a feeling this is going to be another one of your attempts to show that there really can be a square circle by some argument that A = A doesn’t really have to mean A = A.
As I said, I'm going to ask you a series of questions. You said, in @128:
When have I avoided answering questions here? Of course I’ll answer any questions you wish to pose.
Your evasion in @130 is another example of your chickening out. Question 1: Which area is greater? The increasing half of the normal curve extending to infinity or the area of the 3 x 1 rectangle? -QQuerius
December 16, 2021
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Before God created mankind, God envisioned in detail how billions of souls would suffer eternal torment. Right then, God could have chosen not to create mankind, but He did. My question is: Why did God choose to create mankind, despite His awareness of the formidable downside to this decision?Origenes
December 16, 2021
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So, the only meaningful free will that can exist is if God does not single out and instantiate any particular world where we make a particular set of free will decisions. The only way for free will to meaningfully exist is if it is ultimately me that is somehow instantiating what I experience as "the world" or "reality" from the infinite potential of all possibilities. And that is exactly what MRT provides. Wow. Again, this is why I love debating here.William J Murray
December 16, 2021
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I just showed that Christianity is a form of determinism, in case anyone missed it in the other thread. SB argued in that thread:
No. God’s knowledge of a future human decision does not determine the substance of that decision. God knows if and when the stock market will crash. That doesn’t mean He caused it to happen.
My response:
The reason this argument usually succeeds is because it relies on the inability of others to see where the perspective switches from that of God to that of a human. From God’s perspective, our choices and future outcome are 100% determined as soon as God instantiates that particular creation. From our perspective, we’re making free will choices, but our fate has already been decided by God making the choice of which creation to instantiate out of all the possible choices available. So it’s not just God’s knowledge that determines our outcome regardless of our free will; it is God’s act of instantiating a particular creation; that “creation,” from God’s perspective, not just the beginning of it, but the whole thing all the way though eternity. Our outcomes are necessarily predetermined by God, even though we have free will. God made the choice of who would end up in heaven and who would end up in hell when he decided on a particular creation and deliberately instantiated it. There’s nothing anyone can do, free will or not, to alter that end result.
The Christians here make the case under their worldview that because we have free will, there cannot be determinism just because God knows our future.. I've shown above how that is not true because it switches perspectives. Just because we have free will from our perspective does not mean every action and thought we have was not predetermined by God - not simply because of his Knowledge of what we will do, but because that knowledge is combined with the act of creating a particular world that instantiates all the choices made in that particular world. God's choice of instantiating a particular world directly caused everything that occurs in that world because God did not just create the beginning; he also created the middle and the end, top to bottom, stem to stern. My free will choices in this particular world were locked in by God's act of instantiating this world where I happen to make those particular free will choices. There's absolutely nothing I can do to change it after this world has been instantiated by God. This also explains how it is that God violated my free will by eliminating my capacity for any meaningful free will by instantiating a particular creation where I make the particular free will choices I make in that world.William J Murray
December 16, 2021
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Querius said:
Since it seems you’re not familiar with using calculus to find the area under an asymptotic curve, let’s try this:
Can you get to the point you're trying to make? I have a feeling this is going to be another one of your attempts to show that there really can be a square circle by some argument that A = A doesn't really have to mean A = A.William J Murray
December 16, 2021
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William J Murray @128,
Simple logic. If the price I would have paid for my sins was eternal suffering, then paying that price is eternal suffering. A=A. If that is the price that must be paid, then it is the price that must be paid.
Since it seems you’re not familiar with using calculus to find the area under an asymptotic curve, let’s try this: The area under a normal distribution or bell curve is exactly 1 (a probability of 100%). That means that half the curve starts at the mean and increases along the X axis (enumerated by standard deviations) to INFINITY without the Y axis ever reaching 0, but the total area under this half of the curve is exactly 0.5, a finite number. Reference: https://youtu.be/KA4G9mWONvU?t=221 (watch for 26 seconds) Compare this area to a rectangle of length 3 along the X axis and a Y-axis height of 1, which has an area of 3. Question 1: Which area is greater? The increasing half of the normal curve extending to infinity or the area of the 3 x 1 rectangle? -QQuerius
December 15, 2021
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Querius said:
So, are you suggesting that God should simply wink Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-un, General Idi Amin Dada, and their ilk out of existence without any justice?
I offered it as a merciful alternative to eternal suffering. There's a whole range of possible "justice" scenarios between the two, like anything less than eternal suffering.
How can you pretend to know this?
Simple logic. If the price I would have paid for my sins was eternal suffering, then paying that price is eternal suffering. A=A. If that is the price that must be paid, then it is the price that must be paid.
If I ask you a series of questions ...
When have I avoided answering questions here? Of course I'll answer any questions you wish to pose.William J Murray
December 15, 2021
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WJM @
1. Show the logical necessity for eternal torment. 2. Show the metaphysical necessity for eternal torment. 3. Show how eternal torment is reflective of “justice,” “love,’ or “mercy other than as a big-dog decree that it is so. 4. Show how my alternatives are either logically or metaphysically impossible, those alternatives being (a) replacing hell-bound people with biological automatons that fulfill their roles; or (b) replacing eternal torment with wiping those souls out of existence instead. 5. This isn’t really a question of logic but just as important: how is it we are supposed to be happy in Heaven knowing that people we love, or even billions of people we don’t even know, are suffering eternal torment? How is that possible?
These are very good questions, and no one seems to have an answer. Remarkable.Origenes
December 15, 2021
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William J Murray @108,
Please note the essential aspect in my challenge is eternal suffering, not the fact that we are simply “disposed of.” In fact, I offered the alternative of God simply winking us out of existence instead of allowing us to suffer eternally.
So, are you suggesting that God should simply wink Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-un, General Idi Amin Dada, and their ilk out of existence without any justice?
Is Jesus suffering for eternity? No? Then Jesus cannot have paid the price that those He has forgiven would have paid for their sins.
How can you pretend to know this? For example, have you ever used calculus to determine the finite area under an infinite-length asymptotic curve? Such an area might be less than the area of a rectangle of finite length and width. If that’s true in mathematics, then how can you be certain that it can’t be true for punishment? But before going any further, let me ask you this. You frequently bring up eternal suffering and the supposed unfairness of God on this forum, which is supposed on focus on ID topics. If I ask you a series of questions that might actually bring you to the point of agreeing that God is indeed perfectly fair and just, would that make ANY difference in your belief system? If you answer YES, I will continue. If you answer NO or make no answer, then your objections are obviously pointless and should be ignored. -QQuerius
December 15, 2021
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The earliest I could find Chuckdarwin was April 2020 on an OP on "evil." He actually made some sound comments on morality but never appeared again on the thread after his initial comment on evil. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-argument-from-evil-is-absurd/#comment-697797 Has this been a pattern from the beginning? Interjecting something but never answering or backing up his innuendo.jerry
December 15, 2021
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the delight in mockery are signs of health:
We all tend to use mockery to some extent. You tend to use it for people who are serious and correct in their reasoning. You have never once have been able to provide a reason why the people you mock should be mocked. Is mockery used in such a way an indictment of the person using it rather than the target of the mockery?
Judging a person does not define who they are, it defines who you are
So if the judgment is incorrect, the mockery essentially points at your self. A lot of others use mockery for people who are incorrect in nearly everything they say. If they cannot back up their opinions, they too should be mocked. There is a huge difference.jerry
December 15, 2021
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Kairosfocus @121, Nicely stated! The issue boils down to whether someone is willing to follow the science regardless of ideological implications or "established" scientific theories. If the history of science teaches us anything, it would be that scientific theories are always in flux, sometimes drawing toward or drawing away from cherished ideologies. -QQuerius
December 15, 2021
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Jerry @116 & @16 years ago,
My initial reaction is that any association of Intelligent Design with a fundamentalist religion is negative for increasing understanding of what Intelligent Design is about. If as it claims, ID has no connection with any religious doctrine then it should distance itself from these associations. All it does is feed the anti ID people with more arguments against ID.
I'm in complete agreement. Ideology hamstrings science whether it comes from Christian interpretations of Genesis, Marxist interpretations of punctuated equilibrium, or the irrational exclusion of Alexander Graham Cairns- Smith's Clay theory on the origin of life from serious investigation. -QQuerius
December 15, 2021
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CD, if the materialist atheists wish to be taken seriously scientifically they need to disentangle themselves from a priori ideological atheism, however disguised as science. By now you know or should know that the design inference is well founded empirically and analytically and that there is no good explanation for alphanumeric code and associated algorithms -- language and stepwise goal directed process -- along with molecular nanotech execution machinery in a kinematic self replicator apart from intelligently directed configuration. The same extends to the multiply fine tuned cosmos that facilitates such life. In that context, ideological posturing as you indulged above simply exposes the agenda Lewontin let the cat out of the bag on 20+ years back. Deal with the matters on the merits. KF PS: FYI,
. . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
kairosfocus
December 15, 2021
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Jerry @ 116
Also did you learn Christian charity in all this education? Your comments are some of the most un-charitable on this site.
I don't believe I've called anyone a "moron" or an "ignorant ass" or have accused anyone of exhibiting some kind of inappropriate "emotional involvement" vis a vis their belief system. And I'm positive that I've never engaged in gratuitous and infantile armchair psychologizing about a commenters' "sexual constraints," whatever that is supposed to mean. (see ET @115 and Querius @117) In fact, I don't believe I have ever called anyone names on this blog. I've challenged opinions, I've mocked ideas. I've posted sarcastic and snide comments, but I've never engaged in ad hominem attacks on commenters. That, my friend, has been a one-way street. The interesting thing I learned about "Christian charity" very long ago, is that it always carries a price tag. There is always a quid pro quo when bargaining for one's soul. So, I will leave you with an appropriate comment from a fellow traveler, Mr. Nietzsche, epigram 154 from BGE:
Objections, digressions, gay mistrust, the delight in mockery are signs of health: everything unconditional belongs in pathology.
chuckdarwin
December 15, 2021
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Quierus @117 It's definitely a sexual thing......chuckdarwin
December 15, 2021
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A comment I made 16 years ago on this site
My initial reaction is that any association of Intelligent Design with a fundamentalist religion is negative for increasing understanding of what Intelligent Design is about. If as it claims, ID has no connection with any religious doctrine then it should distance itself from these associations. All it does is feed the anti ID people with more arguments against ID. I get a little queasy when I find a lot of the arguments against Darwinism are on new earth creationist sites. They may be the best of people and very smart but if their science is constrained by a religious belief, then you will not know if you are getting an un biased argument and presentation of facts. It is at the point these days that if you try to have an intelligent discussion on this topic, the other person immediately thinks you are some sort of kook. After the Dover decision today I believe the best approach is not to get ID into the schools but to get Darwin out except for micro evolution. Make the distinction that evolution is a multi-tier theory; 1) origin of life, 2) forming multi-cell organisms with differentiated functions (eyes, nervous systems, appendages etc), 3) macro evolution and then separate from these first three tiers 4) micro evolution which we all agree on and emphasize that this is the only thing that Darwin witnessed on the Beagle. Get the diagrams of species turning into man or each other out of the text books, get the Darwin tree out of it etc. Have any mention of anything to do with the first three tiers as speculation and any belief in them as much based on faith as any religion. Micro evolution is overwhelming accepted and while some of it may be still speculation most is reasonably based and not speculative. Make the distinciton at every turn and keep away from religious groups that have doctrines dependent upon certain views of science no matter how sincere they are. The key is to take the same approach as the Darwinists and insist that faith based science be tossed from the school curriculum. I believe that tiers 1-3 are as much faith based as the new earth creation scientist’s beliefs are.
But the people attracted to comment on this site are people who want to discuss religion, either for or against. Case in point, chuckdarwin is as guilty of this as anyone.jerry
December 15, 2021
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ET, While it does seem that Chuckdarwin is a troll, that's very different from a moron. He obviously has some issues with his upbringing, people involved with his education, and his former beliefs to the point that he seems to have a mission here to attack Christianity with a single-mindedness that indicates an emotional involvement. In my experience, perspective, personal disappointments, and personal morality are the keys. The fact is many people are both Christians and have careers in the sciences, engineering, programming, and other technical fields speaks to perspective. A person's experiences such as disappointments (as was the case with the original Charles Darwin), or sexual constraints are often the source of their objections, not the specific objections themselves. BTW, I'm planning to provide William J Murray a more complete answer to his objections when I have the time. I'm thinking of using a Socratic approach if he's willing to answer my questions (so far he hasn't, but I'll try anyway and let's see what happens). -QQuerius
December 15, 2021
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Sixteen years in Catholic schools, including four at a Jesuit university give me license to comment on Christianity because I am familiar with not just Christianity’s creed and scriptures, but also the history of the Church
If this true, then why do you get so many things wrong? Apparently the education you cite does not qualify you to assess anything correctly. You commit one fallacy after the other. Also did you learn Christian charity in all this education? Your comments are some of the most un-charitable on this site. Before someone says that this is anti-Catholic, I know several Catholics who have had as much Catholic education and their attitudes are nothing like yours. Aside: I believe the Jesuits are big on Darwin's ideas being the basis of evolution. So maybe you did pick something up in your education.jerry
December 15, 2021
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Clearly chuckdarwin is just a moron and a troll. The alleged scientific community can't even formulate a scientific theory of evolution. The alleged scientific community is wed to materialism, which is a failed philosophy. Only desperate morons conflate ID or UD with people. Enter chuckdarwin. Chuckdarwin has never contributed anything to UD. No one has ever made the case that ID is religion. ID does NOT say anything about who, how, when, where or why to worship. That has never happened. And without that only a pathological liar on an agenda can say ID is religion. chuckdarwin is just another desperate and willfully ignorant ass. The threat to public policy and public education is with teaching evolutionism as science!ET
December 15, 2021
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Kairofocus @110 I wasn't trying to single you out as one of the commentators that quotes a biblical passage in every post, if I gave that impression, I apologize. My bigger point is that UD states in it heading that it serves the intelligent design community. If the intelligent design community wants to be taken seriously in the larger scientific community, its entanglement with evangelical Christianity does not serve that purpose. Simply claiming that this is not a religious blog or that ID is not a religious ideology doesn't cut it because it is gainsaid by the actual posts and topics discussed. It's a classic walk the walk vs. talk the talk problem. I don't make any attempt to hide my anti-Christian bias. Like most Americans I was raised in an ostensibly Christian family, perhaps more so than most. Sixteen years in Catholic schools, including four at a Jesuit university give me license to comment on Christianity because I am familiar with not just Christianity's creed and scriptures, but also the history of the Church. Despite the fact that I rejected Christianity as a belief system decades ago, I will always be appreciative of the thorough education by the priests and nuns that taught me. The reason that I follow this blog and contribute is twofold. First, it interests me and despite the occasional abuse directed towards non-Christian commenters, sometimes the discussions are actually interesting and helpful. Second. the ID movement, in my opinion, poses a threat to public policy and especially public education in the US because of its "excessive entanglement" with religion as laid out in the 1971 US Supreme Court First Amendment holding in Lemon v. Kurtzman. Despite its protestations to the contrary, the loud claims that ID "is not religion" I view that entanglement as increasing. When the ID crowd publishes books with titles like "Return of the God Hypothesis," it's pretty clear where ID is headed.chuckdarwin
December 15, 2021
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KF, here is my response then, to SB:
This is illogical on several fronts. First of all, it makes no sense to say the creating someone with a free will violates the principle of free will. It is logically impossible to violate something that does not yet exist.
It does already exist even before that person is created because that future person already exists in full in the mind of God, including their free will. God would be fully aware that that person, at the end of their run, would have chosen to never have been created at all, but God created forces him into that situation and end nonetheless. That the person could not make a free will choice from his perspective until after he is created is irrelevant to the point; God knows what his choice would have been before he even created the person. For God, "free will" is not a time-linear phenomena. God sees the entire run of that person's existence before that person is created, so yes, God actually violates that person's free will because God has the capacity to know the answer to the question "would you rather have not been created at all" before God creates that person. Yet, God forces them against their will into existence because God's knowledge of their will is complete an not limited to linear time after their actual creation.
You might want to argue that creating someone without permission is “unjust” (never mind that it is impossible to consult them without first creating them) but you don’t believe that there is any such thing as justice, so you have closed off that option as well.
No, I'm not arguing from or about my own beliefs; I'm arguing from logic about your beliefs. My own beliefs fully endorse whatever any God decides to do because might makes right. However, I don't think you or KF are arguing that God has implemented a "might makes right" world, so it is you and KF that believe that eternal torment is "just." Similar to the way that Mr. Arrington pointed out the ramifications of the determinism/materialist belief system in the OP, I'm pointing out the logical ramifications to the premises and assertions of Christians here, such as eternal torment. IOW, if eternal torment is true, then ..." I'm not defending determinism/materialism because it cannot be defended on pain of self-negation, but IMO neither can "eternal torment" be defended without negating any reasonable concept of "justice," "love," and "mercy." IMO it can only be defended on grounds of 'might makes right;" or, it's "just" for no other reason than the biggest dog says it is.
In keeping with that claim (there is no justice), you have argued that it doesn’t matter if an innocent man is found guilty in a court of law.
Show me where I said it didn't matter.
So why, all of a sudden, does it matter if someone goes to hell if God knew that it was going to happen. Is there something “unjust” about that? How can something be unjust if no standard for justice exists? This is just one more example of your many contradictory notions.
Once again, I'm not arguing from or about my beliefs; I'm arguing against your beliefs using logic. Here are some avenues by which to defend against my argument: 1. Show the logical necessity for eternal torment. 2. Show the metaphysical necessity for eternal torment. 3. Show how eternal torment is reflective of "justice," "love,' or "mercy other than as a big-dog decree that it is so. 4. Show how my alternatives are either logically or metaphysically impossible, those alternatives being (a) replacing hell-bound people with biological automatons that fulfill their roles; or (b) replacing eternal torment with wiping those souls out of existence instead. 5. This isn't really a question of logic but just as important: how is it we are supposed to be happy in Heaven knowing that people we love, or even billions of people we don't even know, are suffering eternal torment? How is that possible? However, like responses to the OP here, I don't expect those I call on for response to actually, directly respond to this challenge because, like the challenge posed by the OP, I don't think the position of "eternal torment" can be reconciled with the "justice, love and mercy" branch its defenders have positioned themselves on.William J Murray
December 15, 2021
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WJM, you would do well to ponder SB's comments. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2021
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Origenes, what is the nature of the soul, what is the nature of death or disintegration? What if the inherent unity of the soul means it cannot be disintegrated or break down into bits and pieces that have independent existence so they no longer are soul? In short, what if the nature of the soul implies potential, forward direction infinity? In such a context containment from further contamination and ruin makes sense. In which case, mutual impacts of pathologies that have become habitual would explain the concept of gehenna. But then, such is so far off the topic of the OP that it seems to me to reflect the obsessions of some rather than any concern to address focal issues such as are in the OP. You and others have been repeatedly advised that there are other fora with duly qualified people that can and do address the sorts of theology distractors that are being raised here as part of their focus. I again suggest, take your questions there. Here, you will get in part only brief pointers and references and/or reactions of commenters who may be drawn into exchanges at layman level but such are likely to be unproductive. Save, that they serve to make toxic, confusing squid ink clouds that serve as a distraction for escaping addressing what is truly focal. Meanwhile, our civilisation burns. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2021
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CD, you will find that I cite scripture when it is highly needed to underscore a point or to answer particularly deep seated errors; as I did above. It certainly does not end my "every" post. Further to which, the substantial issue was tossed away by you through patent anti-Christian bias. I think you would be well advised to reconsider. KF PS: ET is quite right:
UD is not and never has been a theology blog. UD has not and never has prevented people from expressing their theological views. And seeing that materialism and its bastard child, evolutionism, require more blind faith than any given religion, the anti-ID zealots should just shut up about the topic of theology. They worship at the altar of father time, mother nature and some still unknown processes.
The fact that in ongoing threads, there is a clear struggle to acknowledge things like objectivity and warrant speaks volumes on the in-progress breakdown of our civilisation.kairosfocus
December 15, 2021
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WJM @
Is God unable to set up a scheme where, instead of eternal torment, they are just “poofed” out of existence?
Logically, if God created us, he can uncreate us. So, indeed, why doesn’t he do that? Why go with the eternal torment option instead? Why is it the case that one form of punishment [eternal torment] fits every crime? And is eternal torment a fitting punishment for any crime; let alone for the lesser crimes committed by the vast majority of people who will receive this punishment? Why is it the case that Uncle Jim and daughter Susie receive the same punishment as Ted Bundy?Origenes
December 15, 2021
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Querius said:
Yes, that’s why it’s called an analogy.
An analogy should compare some meaningful aspect of the thing originally described. Please note the essential aspect in my challenge is eternal suffering, not the fact that we are simply "disposed of." In fact, I offered the alternative of God simply winking us out of existence instead of allowing us to suffer eternally. When you have an analogy that addresses eternal suffering being allowed by a being that could make it stop, which is the key issue here, let me know.
But you’re obviously and specifically disturbed about suffering. Don’t you know that according to the Bible, God in human form experienced being tortured to death along with all the anguish of abandonment from carrying all the punishment for the sins of the world, even going to hell for a while–so you wouldn’t have to if you choose not to?
Is Jesus suffering for eternity? No? Then Jesus cannot have paid the price that those He has forgiven would have paid for their sins. Anyway, that is entirely irrelevant to the issue I've raised, but I suppose the questions I've posed are just more examples of issues you refuse to address directly. 1. What is the point of eternal suffering? 2. How is it that people in heaven are not disturbed about the eternal suffering of those that do not make the cut, especially given it is likely that a lot of or even most people there will have loved ones suffering in hell for eternity?
Logically, you’ve fallen between the chair and the stool. If God truly exists and truly created all the beauty and dizzying complexity of this world, why do you imagine that God can’t be totally and completely fair in evaluating YOU . . . either with perfect justice or loving mercy based on your choosing either justice or mercy?
No, I cannot imagine a scenario where "eternal suffering" could be considered either fair or merciful.
Again, if God can see your free will choices in advance, it’s because he can exist in our past, our present, and our future. Foreknowledge doesn’t necessitate determinism.
I didn't say it did. You're not addressing my challenges to the Christian God at all. I said that God knew before he created anyone where they would end up, with an enormous number ending up in a state of eternal torment, yet he chose to create them anyway. I didn't say that was determinism, nor did I pose my argument as if it were. What you won't answer is ...why? Is God unable to set up a scheme where, instead of eternal torment, they are just "poofed" out of existence? Or, even better, have their roles in the scheme of things played out by biological automatons instead of souls that will suffer for eternity or even require being "poofed"? I mean, he knows what all those not going to heaven would do, why not have automatons fulfill all of that? Is that beyond God's power for some reason?
Yes, inevitably many people will perish . . . but it doesn’t have to include you.
Is the idea that God was somehow fair and merciful supposed to be of any comfort to me if I make it to heaven and my loved ones are suffering eternal torment? Christians here often talk about empathy towards those who suffer whom we don't even know; is your empathy for those suffering somehow just turned off by the belief that they somehow deserve it?William J Murray
December 15, 2021
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