Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Determinism for Thee but Not for Me

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A professor sums up a lecture on the evolutionary explanation for why religion has been ubiquitous in every human culture:

Professor:  So, in summary, every human culture going back thousands of years has been religious because religion is either itself an adaptive behavior or it is a spandrel, a byproduct of the evolution of some other trait upon which natural selection acted.  Under the first view, religion itself was adaptive, perhaps because it enhances cooperation and cohesion within groups, and group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction.  Under the second view, perhaps religion evolved as a byproduct of adaptive selection of some other trait, although it is not clear what that other trait might have been.

Student:  Thank you for that explanation professor.  I wonder if I might ask a question.

Professor:  Of course.

Student:  Thank you.  If I understand correctly, the evolutionary process you described is fundamentally deterministic, and religion arose in all human cultures as a result of that purely deterministic process.

Professor:  Yes, that’s correct. 

Student:  But I don’t understand.  As sophisticated modern people, we understand that religious beliefs about supernatural beings and a spirit world and whatnot are false.  Why did evolution select for a false belief? 

Professor:  Excellent question.  Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief in this case.  You see, evolution selects for survival value, not for truth.  Evolution may well select for a totally false belief system if that false belief system confers a survival benefit, and in the case of religion it did exactly that.  Deterministic evolutionary processes in a sense foisted a false belief on the overwhelming majority of humans throughout thousands of years of history because that false belief system made them more fit in the Darwinian sense of that word.

Student:  So we know for a certain fact that deterministic evolutionary forces shape our belief systems.  And we know for a certain fact that any particular belief system may be, to use your word, foisted on us by evolution even if it is false.  This is fascinating.  Until very recently, almost everyone’s most cherished and strongly held beliefs were exactly of the false-belief-foisted-on-them-by-evolution variety.

Professor:  Yes, that is indeed fascinating. 

Student:  It is also deeply troubling.

Professor:  What are you talking about?

Student:  For us moderns, especially the elites like those who teach at and attend this university, scientific materialism has largely supplanted religious belief as the foundation of our outlook on the world. 

Professor:  Yes, that is true, but I have no idea why that would be troubling to you.

Student:  That’s not the troubling part.  What troubles me is that if we know that our modern belief system is caused, like everything else, by purely deterministic forces, how can we know our belief system is not just as false as the religious beliefs we scoff at?  How do we know that evolution has not foisted yet another false belief system on us, in this case scientific materialism, because it is adaptive even though it is false?

Professor:  Let not your heart be troubled.  We can know that scientific materialism is true because we have sound evidentiary reasons for believing it. 

Student:  I don’t understand.  I know Christians who say they have good reasons based on their exhaustive review of the evidence to believe what they believe. 

Professor:  Yes, yes.  But they have deluded themselves.  Their evidence is not as good as the evidence we have that supports science and materialism. 

Student:  I think you missed the point I was making.  You said that our belief systems are the result of purely deterministic processes.  Either that is true or it is not.  If it is true, then evolution forces us to believe in scientific materialism just as it formerly forced theists to believe in religion.  The very essence of determinism is that it does not allow us to choose based on any ground, including an evaluation of the evidence.  And this is what troubles me.  I read one of the Christian philosophers.  He said that if my thoughts are utterly determined by material forces, why should I believe them to be true?  And after listening to your lecture today, I begin to take his point.  Why indeed should we prefer one deterministically caused belief over another?  After all, we say that we know that throughout history, the vast majority of people held a false deterministically caused belief.

Professor:  You aren’t listening to me.  We have good reasons to believe what we do.  Religious bumpkins don’t.

Student:  No, you aren’t listening to me.  Either determinism causes our beliefs or it does not.  By its very nature, determinism is an all-or-nothing proposition.  What gives us the right to say other people’s beliefs are mere evolutionary adaptations but not our own?  Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid.  It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it.

Comments
Querius: Sadly true and you’re probably right. I think it points to self-inflicted blindness. It's awfully weird at the least. We're not talking graduate level stuff here! You told him the answer! Incredible. I just cannot fathom someone who claims to be able to reason at a high level who can't perform very, very basic mathematical activities. Mathematics has been recognised as being analogous to logic for centuries. And you simply cannot follow some scientific arguments without being able to understand the math behind them. Weird, weird, weird. While I sympathize, with their pain and frustration, it seems that some people cling to their perceptions of injustice and victimhood rather than considering a different perspective that can get them out of a rut. If you can't swallow your pride and take a course then . . . I got nothin'.JVL
December 19, 2021
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Ram @164, You raise a lot of questions and issues. Maybe you would be willing to take a shot at my QUESTION 2 @158. If you follow my path in that question, I promise to give you frank answers to what you raised. Some of them might surprise you. -QQuerius
December 18, 2021
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JVL @160, 161 Sadly true and you're probably right. I think it points to self-inflicted blindness. While some people have honest stumbling blocks and ask honest questions, others pretend not to understand or perhaps are so filled with bitterness that they function as trolls. While I sympathize, with their pain and frustration, it seems that some people cling to their perceptions of injustice and victimhood rather than considering a different perspective that can get them out of a rut. The same dynamic applies in some cases to frustrated or disappointed athletes. In other cases, I've seen examples of people who sabotage their own success for reasons that I don't understand. Maybe you have, too. Online, one can't be sure whether some people create multiple personages. I guess they have fun with it. -QQuerius
December 18, 2021
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Querius: No, the original transgression is like an infection. We’re not condemned for the sin of Adam and Eve, but for our own sin. An infection that (your idea of) God could have stopped in its tracks. Your theology has the creator being unfair from the onset. And sending most people to eternal torture for not somehow getting it right after the initial infection. Of course, the Big Red Flag in your theology is that your god leaves the innocent humans alone with a clever interloper right there at the onset, before their "eyes" have even been "opened" enough to effectively defend themselves. It's like leaving three year old children in a room with a jar full of candy, and expecting them to resist when a very nice adult comes in the room and persuades them that it's OK to eat the candy because mommy and daddy just want to keep the candy all to themselves. Then cursing them an all of their future children because it. Here's the thing, the reason why you believe weird things is that your primary assumption about earth life is wrong. You see it as some kind of test. What if it isn't? There are other plausible options. Are you willing to explore the possibility that you are wrong? And before you accuse me of being a god-hater, and without morality, I'm neither of those things. What I'm pointing out is that, from what we know about human built-in morality- your idea of god is an unfair character at the very beginning and end of this earth-life experiment. In other words, what we know about morality, your theology is bogus and is utterly unworthy of the real Creator. You believe the Christian Bible (66 books or 73 books?), and you think that explains it to your satisfaction. But try to see it from another view. Ponder honestly: why doesn't the Bible explain: 1) why any creation at all? 2) why eternal torture for the losers when anniliation would do just fine? One would think the "word of God" would at least give provide that. Your speculations about those two questions are not evidence Moreover, ask yourself why Orthodox Jews don't believe in the "eternal torture" concept. --Ramram
December 18, 2021
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WJM “If you’re not going to accept my answers as being honest, what’s the point of any of this?” This is funny you got me ROFL. Honest answers? This from someone who admits you dishonesty argued for things you don’t even believe in. WJM 363 on another thread, LFP “Why did I argue for objective morality for a year when I didn’t even believe in it? “ Vividvividbleau
December 18, 2021
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I do apologise: in my haste I ascribed statements to William J Murray in comment #156 that were actually made by Seversky for some reason. I'm not sure why they responded to a statement directed at someone else . . . I trust they are not the same person . . . If I have misrepresented William J Murray then I do apologise.JVL
December 18, 2021
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Querius: So, what’s the answer to question 2? I'd just leave it Querius. William "innumerate" Murray thinks his reasoning power is adequate despite not being able to do arithmetic. I think I get it now: he's just been parroting some things he read in a book or two without being able to look at the science or evidence behind it. If there is any. If you can't do arithmetic you certainly can't understand algebra or statistics or calculus or analysis or diff eq or a whole ton of other analytic disciplines. Too weird. Hopefully there's no journals publishing his stuff.JVL
December 18, 2021
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William J Murray: I am that innumerate. I recognize the value of mathematics but I view the subject with a loathing you probably cannot understand. In my experience it was one of the worst-taught subjects in the curriculum. I'm sorry but do you expect us to take you seriously when you cannot deal with even the basic, first-year, undergraduate mathematics? Do you really think your reasoning abilities are top-notch when you can't even repeat a numerical answer that was explicitly given to you multiple times? This has nothing to do with you having bad teachers. This has to do with your intellectual laziness and inability to process a grade-school level statement. Again, this is BASIC STUFF. So many aspects of scientific reasoning and argumentation depend on being able to track mathematical discussions, some much more complicated that the above. And you think you can just ignore all of that because . . . because . . . I have been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in the past but clearly you need to spend a lot of time learning some basic analytic tools. 'Cause otherwise you're just one of the great pretenders. Amusing but not influential. I'd love to be your accountant 'cause I'd just eat your assets for lunch and you wouldn't have a clue.JVL
December 18, 2021
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Seversky @157,
How is it just to condemn humanity to suffering in perpetuity for a single transgression committed by distant ancestors?
No, the original transgression is like an infection. We're not condemned for the sin of Adam and Eve, but for our own sin. This infection in us will eventually kill us unless we get a vaccine. So God provided this "vaccine" for us by putting on a human body, suffering intensely and producing "antibodies" that will save us if were willing to accept his vaccine.
As for the alleged sins for which He was atoning by His “sacrifice”, I remind you that according to Christian belief nothing exists except by God’s will.
Really? Where is this stated in the Bible? Then, maybe you can explain what the Apostle Peter wrote here:
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, NOT WILLING for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)
If you can experience suffering, you can measure it. And if you can measure it, you can plot it over time. And if you plot it over time, you can find the total amount of suffering by computing or measuring the total amount of area under this infinite curve, which in certain cases yields a finite number, hence a finite amount of suffering. There are many infinite (asymptotic) curves that this applies to, including the normal distribution curve which is infinite in both directions but has an area of exactly 1. The portion that extends in the positive direction from the mean is also infinite and the area under the curve is also finite, namely half of 1 or 0.5. This FACT goes to show that there can exist a condition of an infinite amount of time resulting in a finite amount of suffering. -QQuerius
December 18, 2021
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William J Murray,
Actually, I just don’t know the answer. If you’re not going to accept my answers as being honest, what’s the point of any of this?
You gotta be joking. What do you do at a grocery store? For someone who doesn't know that 0.5 is a finite number that's less than 3, you sure put a lot of opinions and arguments on parade. But, I assume you're not paralyzed and can watch YouTube videos. Here's one contains the answer to QUESTION 2 in a few seconds: https://youtu.be/eIuG-b9Dwd8?t=143 And here's another one, again that shows the answer in a few seconds: https://youtu.be/ZFnUAFCffXE?t=219 So, what's the answer to question 2? -QQuerius
December 18, 2021
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Querius/152
For everyone else then, here’s what the simple math shows: The area under a curve of infinite length can have a finite value.
I would accept that on your word. So what?
That means that the justice imposed by God is not necessarily unlimited even when spread out over an infinite amount of time. Please note that I’m not saying that this is necessarily what God will do. The example from math simply destroys William J Murray’s contention that God can’t be just.
Nonsense, that is a complete non-sequitur. Geometry is a branch of mathematics which is concerned with physical and spatial properties such as shape, size, distance and relative positions of figures. Justice is concerned with ethical and moral prescriptions for trying to ensure that all members of a human society are treated fairly and equitably. You can no more use geometrical calculations to quantify an unquantifiable metaphysical concept such as justice than you can estimate a numerical value for the beauty of a great painting. The anguish suffered by Christ during the Crucifixion was at best street-theater. As the Son of God, in effect God manifested briefly in human form on Earth, He was immortal. We may have been able to kill the body but it is beyond our power to harm him in any other way. In fact, we have to assume that He had the power to suppress any pain He was experiencing at the time if He chose, which was more than any mortal human could have done unaided. As for the alleged sins for which He was atoning by His "sacrifice", I remind you that according to Christian belief nothing exists except by God's will. If human beings are capable of sinning it is because that is how we were made by our Creator. God could have chosen to do otherwise, so why didn't He? As an omniscient and omnipresent deity, He would have known exactly how we were going to behave if allowed, so what purpose is served by letting scenarios play out where you already know the outcome? How is it just to condemn humanity to suffering in perpetuity for a single transgression committed by distant ancestors? As Charles Darwin wrote following the death of his father, Robert, in 1848,
Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine.
I entirely agree.Seversky
December 18, 2021
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JVL/151
William J Murray: Are you really that innumerate? You were told what the answer is!! Even the calculus required is not that advanced.
I am that innumerate. I recognize the value of mathematics but I view the subject with a loathing you probably cannot understand. In my experience it was one of the worst-taught subjects in the curriculum.Seversky
December 18, 2021
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Q said:
I think William J Murray refuses to provide the answer to what’s greater: 0.5 or 3 because he’s terrified of where the math will take him
Actually, I just don't know the answer. If you're not going to accept my answers as being honest, what's the point of any of this?
It also shows that the physical and psychological anguish that Christ suffered for us over a finite amount of time can be equal to and sufficient to pay for everyone’s transgressions.
Except A (suffering) does not equal not-A (area in geometry), so you haven't shown anything of value. Unless you can show me the equations for expressing quanta of suffering as geometrical area?
The example from math simply destroys William J Murray’s contention that God can’t be just.
It does not and William J. Murray never made that contention. JVL said:
Are you really that innumerate? You were told what the answer is!! Even the calculus required is not that advanced.
Apparently. Q asks:
QUESTION 2: What will this event look like from an observer stationed at a safe distance away?
I don't know.William J Murray
December 18, 2021
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Q@153: I think the answer is that the person will simply disappear into a cloud of molecular dust, which will also disappear quite quickly. What is you answer?Truth Will Set You Free
December 18, 2021
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William J Murray @128,
When have I avoided answering questions here? Of course I’ll answer any questions you wish to pose.
Let's say at some time in the future, the punishment for someone found guilty of a murder is to be jettisoned at high velocity toward a black hole in a radiation-resistant capsule. At some point the difference in gravity will be massively different between their head and feet, resulting in their death by being turned into spaghetti. The death they will experience will be painful but quick, depending on their initial velocity. They won't even notice their passing over the Schwarzschild radius and their body will ultimately be powdered and crushed into the singularity. There are several YouTube videos you can watch on the subject. QUESTION 2: What will this event look like from an observer stationed at a safe distance away? -QQuerius
December 18, 2021
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JVL @151, What can I say? I think William J Murray refuses to provide the answer to what's greater: 0.5 or 3 because he's terrified of where the math will take him. He'd rather look stupid than have someone show him that his precious A=A logic is wrong. For everyone else then, here's what the simple math shows: The area under a curve of infinite length can have a finite value. So, if we simply relabel the X axis as time instead of standard deviations and the Y axis as the intensity of deserved punishment rather than probability, then the area under the curve is total punishment, which is limited to 0.5 in this case. That means that the justice imposed by God is not necessarily unlimited even when spread out over an infinite amount of time. Please note that I'm not saying that this is necessarily what God will do. The example from math simply destroys William J Murray's contention that God can't be just. It also shows that the physical and psychological anguish that Christ suffered for us over a finite amount of time can be equal to and sufficient to pay for everyone's transgressions. But that's not the end of my apologetic on the subject. I have two more if William J Murray is willing to answer my next question. -QQuerius
December 18, 2021
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William J Murray: Are you really that innumerate? You were told what the answer is!! Even the calculus required is not that advanced.JVL
December 18, 2021
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Q@149: i don't know.William J Murray
December 18, 2021
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William J Murray @143,
I don’t know.
Hint: The increasing half of the normal curve extending to infinity is 0.5 and the area of the 3 x 1 rectangle is 3. Which of these is greater? -QQuerius
December 17, 2021
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@William J Murray:
I don’t want to live in a world where it “makes sense” to me that she is hopelessly lost to me, much less that she is suffering for eternity.
Where do you get the idea that your wife is suffering for eternity? Remember when you and your wife were together. Did you deny her? Did you not believe she was there? No! Now imagine your wife feeling god like you felt your wife, when she was alive. Knowing god why would she deny him? I'm claiming that you have no idea about god. To deny god first you have to know him. And you will not know him through the pope, nor the priests. God is the gate to heaven, not the sinridden human sewer of this world.AndyClue
December 17, 2021
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WJM: I don’t know. Too funny. You were told what the answer is!JVL
December 17, 2021
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Zweston, you said:
Truth must prevail over our emotions.
The truth is I cannot bear the black abyss of hopeless despair and agony of my wife being lost to me, or the idea of abandoning her to eternal suffering while I seek enjoyment without her. I've experienced first-hand what it is to feel like she is lost to me forever. I felt that after she died. If that means, to you, that my heart is "hardened" against any scenario where she is hopelessly lost to me, so be it. I rejected Christianity long before I met her. I'm friends with literally hundreds of people who have rejected their prior religious beliefs, some after being believers for decades when their partner or child died, because their religion taught that they would never see their loved one again or regain that relationship. This is not a logical argument against any religion; it's just a statement of fact. We will not abandon our loved ones, and we do not want to be "made whole" or find joy and happiness without them. They are everything to us, and all possible enjoyments and pleasures are ash in our mouth without them. I don't want to live in a world where it "makes sense" to me that she is hopelessly lost to me, much less that she is suffering for eternity.William J Murray
December 17, 2021
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WJM, I'd refer you to George Muller, who you may be familiar with. God did some amazing things through him. He talked about his father and brother passing without a profession of faith. He didn't know for sure (nor does anyone) how the final moments of their lives played out. He ultimately came to the place that he just trusted that God would do things the right way. He trusted God's character and let it rest. PS I don't see you as "evil" any more than anyone else. I'm not threatened by you or what you think or say. I do think it's patently false and so I think it's important to keep demonstrating it because I think that eternity is on the line. Wouldn't that only make sense? In regards to your personal situation. I'm reminded of the Rich man and Lazarus, which I think wasn't a parable but a true depiction of reality. The Rich man knew he was stuck, but asked that God would send someone to reach his family. The rich man wanted so much for his brothers to not experience what he was experiencing. I hear your pain and probably anger/frustration at the scenario where your loved ones won't be in heaven. I think that is helpful to know where you are coming from and I'm sorry for that being the case that anyone dies without Jesus. I have friends and family members who don't know Jesus...and the sobering thought of them not knowing Christ is not something I like thinking about. That being said, every man/woman must give an account and must decide if they will pay for their sins or Jesus will. They all have that responsibility. They all will be judged according to that. Ultimately, I do firmly believe God will act rightly in every situation and that's why there will be no tears in heaven. I think we will understand then fully. Crude analogy and may not be helpful, but it seems you are unwilling to get off the train track because someone you know got ran over. So instead of learning from it, you choose to do the same. That is the definition of a hardened heart. And, in a sense, all of this dialogue doesn't matter relative to this question: Is Christianity true? Did Jesus resurrect. Is Jesus who he said he was. Is he the only way? Then you can kick against it all you want, but it doesn't make it true. And again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it invalid. I'm confident that it will all make perfect sense in the end, but that is a faith statement. I trust God. I trust Jesus' character. I can rest in that as a result. Truth must prevail over our emotions. Your emotions are valid and real, but that doesn't mean they are perfectly informed (as neither are mine.) But, I appeal to the word of God and the person of Christ. That's where I sit.zweston
December 17, 2021
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Zweston said:
FULLNESS of joy. Pleasures FOREVERMORE. Doesn’t get any better than that.
There is no chance of that without my wife, children and others I love, especially if I know they are in eternal torment.William J Murray
December 17, 2021
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Querius @134 asks:
Question 1: Which area is greater? The increasing half of the normal curve extending to infinity or the area of the 3 x 1 rectangle?
I don't know.William J Murray
December 17, 2021
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CD @141, appreciate the candor. The idea of eternity or infinity is incomprehensible certainly. Beyond understandable... however, I don't think heaven will be unrecognizable. God didn't call it "New Earth" if it wasn't going to be like earth, just better. I have really enjoyed reading a book called "heaven" by Randy Alcorn...btw not a "I went to heaven and this is what I saw" book but rather a theology of heaven book. It has really helped me see even clearer who God is by his character and care of the people he created and I think we can make some strong inferences of what eternity will look like. I think you'd enjoy the book honestly. He writes in a way that is very very accessible and pleasant. It's not a heavy read at all. I think it would enrich you some on Christianity too. I think it's important Christians communicate what they are being saved to as well as saved from. I think Hollywood and looney tunes have hijacked what Heaven truly is. Haven't you ever wanted a day to never end? Have you ever wanted the day to stop right at dusk? Have you ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Haven't you had such a great time with friends you wished you didn't have to go home?..... Haven't you wanted to sit around a campfire or watch a river or stare at the stars until you had to go to sleep? Have you ever wanted a book to never end or a great movie series? There is a longing in all of us. Time is our enemy...because we know we are finite. Matthew 25:22-23: The servant who had received the two talents also came and said, ‘Master, you entrusted me with two talents. See, I have gained two more.’ 23His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’ -- Or, Psalm 16:11 "You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore. FULLNESS of joy. Pleasures FOREVERMORE. Doesn't get any better than that.zweston
December 16, 2021
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Thanks for the response. Honestly, I find the notion of eternity a little daunting….chuckdarwin
December 16, 2021
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I recognize a tension in scripture. I wouldn't say concretely I'm anything other than I lean reformed. I'm not convinced by Molinism, and open theism and really any other "system" outside of reformed theology doesn't make much sense to me. I'm wide open to alternatives, and I even quoted some of the "non-calvin" verses. I will evangelize to any and everyone and I don't think anyone is too far gone, and I also know that being lazy or complacent is disobedient to the call of Christ. "Choose this day whom you will serve" yes, indeed. We make choices. They follow our wills. We do what we want to do when we aren't forced otherwise. No one will say they were forced to rebel against God. Every conscience knows that. I lean toward the idea this is a paradox I just can't grasp fully. I am by no means a calvinist scholar or professional theologian, so I can't speak to all the nuance of the issue. There are also all kinds of views inside calvinism that aren't largely discussed or known that even myself haven't spent time on...and not sure it's that beneficial long term. The odds of someone being saved is 100% of those who repent and believe will be saved, whoever that may be. Jesus said the way is narrow and so is the gate. It's clear many perish without Christ. Humanity is all condemned without Jesus from the get-go... John 3:17 exists because that's where we are. John 3:36 says the same. We are condemned because we chose to rebel against God. No one is exempt. That's clear. It's also clear that whoever comes will be saved. And while I'd like to know all the answers, I know there are limits to that my ability to do so. King David recognized it. The prophets recognized it. The Apostle John recognized it. Where I don't fully understand I will humbly submit and follow what I do know. All I know is I'm responsible for my action and God is in control and his plan won't be stopped. Other than that, go and make disciples. And how is this different than nihilism?.... There is a purpose, a point, and paradise awaits. My actions have consequences that are forever. My hope is not limited in value. I don't have to make up false purpose to get through the day or just live in cognitive dissonance. Any materialist (I know, you are deist or something) would literally have no point. Eat and drink for tomorrow we die. That conclusion is completely detrimental to the human race. It's why suicide rates are spiking. Instead of killing God, satan is having us kill ourselves. It's horrendous. Instead, Christ has appointed us to be a part of this ultimate narrative story that is playing out right before us... and as Jordan Peterson has said, it's by definition the greatest adventure you could ever be a part of. Whereas nihilism is an incoherent self-defeating (or killing) philosophy that only leads to death and destruction, which is exactly what Satan is all about. Go figure. If you want entertained and informed about the absurdity, watch this pastor talk with a college student who is a committed moral nihilist...or so he thinks. it's pretty awesome. (pastor is mentored by Dr. White, btw) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UciOzJFTjc8 Again, whether I'm right or not about theology doesn't ultimately change much. Jesus resurrected. It's clear. He calls all men to repent and believe and follow him. I don't think most people really want "extinguished." If you could choose between eternal life as described in the Bible or ceasing to exist... I think it's clear what you would choose. Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end. He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Eternity is in your heart. You seek it whether you will admit it or not.zweston
December 16, 2021
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Zweston You profess to be near to a 5-point Calvinist, thus you obviously believe in a form of theological determinism. I listened to the White-WLC debate you reference, and I have listened to both of them for years. Although there is very little that White says or believes that I accept, he is an incredibly articulate advocate, particularly given that he is virtually self-educated. Craig, on the other hand, with his "middle knowledge" gobbledygook, has never really impressed me. I had to take a course on Molina in college for a philosophy minor, and even with that foundation, I find the whole argument ad hoc and ultimately incoherent. In any event, I'm curious how the type of determinism inherent in Reformed theology differs, in a practical sense, from naturalistic determinism beyond the metaphysical veneer that Calvinism applies to the doctrine. Given that within Calvinism the bulk of humanity is condemned ab initio, how is it any less nihilistic than naturalistic determinism? It seems to me that Calvinist determinism would be much more psychologically oppressive insofar as your odds of achieving salvation are slight and your odds of eternal torment great. At least with naturalist determination you have solace that death is the end.chuckdarwin
December 16, 2021
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Zweston @136,
However, if you are a materialist, you are a meat robot with no purpose at all following your chemical reactions that were determined by the creative force of natural selection. Chemicals in your brain fizzing, with no way to be sure your deductions are reliable or authentic. Patent absurdity.
Well said! Incidentally, there are some interesting hints in many places throughout the Bible of the constraints that God put on Himself to give humanity the wonderful gift of free will. For example
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, NOT WILLING for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)
And for good reason, Jesus taught his disciples to pray, ". . . THY WILL be done . . ." -QQuerius
December 16, 2021
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