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Do split-brain cases disprove the existence of an immaterial soul? (Part Two)

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In my last post, I discussed the problem of split-brain cases, which was first raised by KeithS in a post over at The Skeptical Zone titled, Split-brain patients and the dire implications for the soul (June 22, 2013). I began by distinguishing three varieties of dualism (leaving aside property dualism, whose inadequacies from a theistic standpoint have already been ably exposed by Professor William Dembski – see here and here), which I referred to as substance dualism, thought control dualism and formal-final dualism. I then examined the six assumptions used in KeithS’s split-brain argument from the perspective of each of these versions of dualism.

What is a split-brain operation?

Before I go on, I’d like to provide a brief scientific explanation of what a split-brain operation is. The information below is taken from a Web page created by the Psychology Department at Macalester College (bold emphases are mine):

In a normal brain, stimuli entering one hemisphere is rapidly communicated by way of the corpus callosum to the other hemisphere, so the brain functions as a unit. When the corpus callosum of an individual is severed, leaving a split brain, the two hemispheres cannot communicate. In some forms of epilepsy a seizure will start in one hemisphere, triggering a massive discharge of neurons through the corpus callosum and into the second hemisphere. In an effort to prevent such massive seizures in severe epileptics, neurosurgeons can surgically sever the corpus callosum, a procedure called a commissurotomy. If one side of the brain can no longer stimulate the other, the likelihood of severe epileptic seizures is greatly reduced.

Answering KeithS’s questions on split brain patients

In this post, I’d like to discuss and respond to KeithS’s reductio ad absurdum argument. He begins by posing three questions, based on actual cases of split-brain patients, described in the medical literature:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, what did the soul want to do? Is the soul guilty of attacking her? Does the soul get credit for defending her?

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then does the soul know it? What if it’s the other way around, with the left hemisphere knowing something that the right hemisphere doesn’t?

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, what did the soul believe? Was the soul a theist or an atheist?
[NOTE: KeithS is alluding here to a case discussed by the neurologist Dr. V. S. Ramachandran in a video lecture in 2006, about a split brain patient who was asked to point to “Yes,” “No” or “I don’t know,” in response to a series of questions, and whose right hemisphere, when shown the question, “Do you believe in God?”, directed the patient to point to “Yes,” while the patient’s left hemisphere, in response to the same question, directed the patient to point to “No.”]

I might add another interesting case which I’ve come across, relating to a patient named Paul S. (whose case history is discussed in detail on a Macalester College Web page on split-brain consciousness), who underwent brain bisection in the 1970s, and whose right hemisphere (unlike that of most split-brain patients) was able to understand not only nouns, but also verbal commands and also questions, after surgery, and respond to these questions in writing, giving simple one-word answers:

Paul’s right hemisphere developed considerable language ability sometime previous to the operation. Although it is uncommon, occasionally the right hemisphere may share substantial neural circuits with, or even dominate, the left hemisphere’s centers for language comprehension and production. The fact that Paul’s right hemisphere was so well developed in its verbal capacity opened a closed door for researchers. For almost all split brain patients, the thoughts and perceptions of the right hemisphere are locked away from expression. Researchers were finally able to interview both hemispheres on their views about friendship, love, hate and aspirations.

Paul’s right hemisphere stated that he wanted to be an automobile racer while his left hemisphere wanted to be a draftsman. Both hemispheres were asked to write whether they liked or disliked a series of items. The study was performed during the Watergate scandal, and one of the items was Richard Nixon. Paul’s right hemisphere expressed “dislike,” while his left expressed “like.”

(Reference: Atkinson, Rita L., Introduction to Psychology, Eleventh Edition , Harcourt Brace College Publishers, Orlando, c. 1993.)

The case of Paul S. is fully described in an article by Joseph E. LeDoux, Donald H. Wilson and Michael S. Gazzaniga, titled, A Divided Mind: Observations on the Conscious Properties of the Separated Hemispheres (Annals of Neurology 2:417-421, 1977). I’ll quote a few relevant excerpts here:

The question of whether the essence of human consciousness can be represented bilaterally in the split brain patient has so far remained unanswered. The following observations on a new patient, Patient P. S., may help to resolve the issue. For the first time, it has been possible to ask subjective questions of the separated right hemisphere and to witness self-generated answers from this mute half-brain. This opportunity was made possible by the fact that linguistic representation in the right hemisphere of our patient is greater than has been observed in any other split-brain patient. In addition to an extensive capacity for comprehending written and spoken language, the right hemisphere, though unable to generate speech, can express its mental content by arranging letters to spell words [12]…

Results

The right half-brain spelled “Paul” in response to the question “Who are you!” When requested to spell his favorite girl, the right hemisphere arranged the Scrabble letters to spell “Liz.” The right hemisphere spelled “car” for his favorite hobby. When the right hemisphere was asked to spell his favorite person, the following was generated: “Henry Wi Fozi.” (Henry Winkler is the actor who plays Fonzie.) The right hemisphere generated “Sunday” in response to the question “What is tomorrow?” When asked to describe his mood, the right hemisphere spelled out “good.” Later, in response to the same question, the left spelled “silly.” Finally, the right hemisphere spelled out “automobile race” as the job he would pick. This contrasts with the frequent assertion of the left hemisphere that he will be a “draftsman.” In fact, shortly after the test session, when asked what he would like to do for a living, the left hemisphere said, “Oh, be a draftsman, I guess.” … Finally, it should be noted that on each of these right hemisphere trials the patient was unable to name the lateralized information, thus confirming that the left hemisphere did not have access to the critical information.

Discussion

It is important to reemphasize that these responses were self generated by the right hemisphere from a set of infinite possibilities. The only aid provided to the right hemisphere was the two complete alphabets from which he could select letters at will…

Each hemisphere in P. S. has a sense of self, and each possesses its own system for subjectively evaluating current events, planning for future events, setting response priorities, and generating personal responses…

On a day that this boy’s left and right hemispheres equally valued himself, his friends, and other matters, he was calm, tractable, and appealing. On a day when testing indicated that the right and left sides disagreed on these evaluations, the boy became difficult to manage behaviorally.

I therefore propose to add two more questions to KeithS’s list:

4. What did Paul S.’s soul want to be, an automobile racer or a draftsman?

5. Did Paul S.’s soul support or oppose President Richard Nixon?

These are all fair questions, and they deserve straight answers.

Sir John Eccles on split brain cases

I’ll begin by examining what the late Nobel Prize-winning neurophysiologist Sir John Eccles, a modern substance dualist, had to say about split-brain cases.

To begin with, I would invite readers to take a look at this diagram, taken from Eccles’ 1979 Gifford Lectures on The human psyche. As readers can see, the main channel of communication between the (disembodied) conscious self and the brain is via the dominant left hemisphere, but there is also a limited degree of communication with the minor right hemisphere. Next, here is a diagram of communications to and from the brain and within the brain, after the corpus callosum has been severed. Communication from the conscious self to and from the brain is now exclusively via the dominant left hemisphere.

In his 1979 Gifford lectures on The human psyche, Sir John Eccles describes the performance of the two hemispheres of the brain, after a split brain operation:

[T]he left (speaking) hemisphere has a linguistic ability not greatly impaired. It also carries a good memory of the past linked with a good intellectual performance and with an emotional life not greatly disturbed. However it is deficient in all spatial and constructional tasks. By contrast the right hemisphere has a very limited linguistic ability. It has access to a considerable auditory vocabulary, being able to recognize commands and to relate words presented by hearing or vision to pictorial representations. It was also surprising that the right hemisphere responded to verbs as effectively as to action names. Despite all this display of language comprehension, the right hemisphere is extremely deficient in expression in speech or in writing, which is effectively zero. However, in contrast to the left hemisphere, it is very effective in all spatial and constructive tasks and it is also proficient in global recognition tasks.

After reviewing some investigations by Roger Sperry et al. (1979) on two split-brain patients that were designed to test for aspects of self-consciousness in the right hemisphere, Eccles was forced to acknowledge:

It can hardly be doubted that the right hemisphere has at least a limited self-consciousness.

But then he went on to add:

These tests for the existence of mind and of self-conscious mind [in the right hemisphere – VJT] are at a relatively simple pictorial and emotional level. We can still doubt if the right hemisphere has a full self-conscious existence. For example, does it plan and worry about the future, does it make decisions and judgements based on some value system? These are essential qualifications for personhood as ordinarily understood (Strawson, 1959; Popper and Eccles, 1977, Sects. 31 and 33)…

I would agree with DeWitt’s (1975) interpretation of the situation after commissurotomy:

Both minor and major hemispheres are conscious in that they both, no doubt, have the basic phenomenal awareness of perceptions, sensations, etc. And they both have minds … in that they exhibit elaborated, organised systems of response hierarchies, i.e., intentional behaviour. But in addition I would conjecture that only the major hemisphere has a self; only the language utilising brain is capable of the abstract cognising necessary in order to be aware of itself as a unique being. In a word, only the major hemisphere is aware of itself as a self.

This corresponds to the situation in real life, where the associates of the patient find no difficulty after the operation in regarding it as the self or person that it was before the operation. The patients themselves would of course concur, but they do have a problem arising from the splitting of the conscious mind. There is the difficulty in controlling the movements emanating from the activity of the right hemisphere with its associated mind. These movements are completely beyond the control of the conscious self or person that is exercised through the left hemisphere. For example they refer to their uncontrollable left hand as their ‘rogue hand’.

It would seem that this interpretation of DeWitt conforms with all the observational data on the commissurotomy subjects, but avoids the extreme philosophical difficulties inherent in the hypothesis of Puccetti that even normally there is a duality of personhood – ‘two persons in one brain’ as he provocatively expresses it.

Eccles died in 1997. More recent studies have shown that both hemispheres of the brain are extensively involved in self-recognition, and that only the right hemisphere possesses the further ability to recognize familiar others (see Lucina Q. Uddin et al., “Split-brain reveals separate but equal self-recognition in the two cerebral hemispheres”, Consciousness and Cognition 14, 2005, pp. 633–640). In an article titled, Self-Awareness and the Left Hemisphere: The Dark Side of Selectively Reviewing the Literature (Cortex, (2007) 43, 1068-1073), Alain Morin argues forcefully that it is a mistake to equate self-recognition (the ability to recognize oneself in a mirror) with self-awareness, which requires a deeper awareness of one’s current emotions, goals, values and thinking patterns. Even the much-vaunted “Theory of Mind” (or the recognition that other minds exist out there in the real world) fails to exhaust self-awareness – as Morin puts it, “It is very likely indeed that one needs first to access one’s own mental self before one can ponder about others’ potentially comparable inner life” (p. 1069). Morin finds that self-awareness is widely distributed across both sides of the brain, but suggests that if anything, it is the left hemisphere (and not the right hemisphere, as argued recently by some authors) which predominates in self-awareness. Elsewhere, Morin argues for the notion of a relation between inner speech and self-awareness, and he concludes: “one must not neglect the role of language (i.e., inner speech) in self-awareness — an activity deeply associated with normal functioning of the left hemisphere.” (Right hemispheric self-awareness: A critical assessment, Consciousness and Cognition 11 (2002) 396–401.)

In another paper, titled, “The split-brain debate revisited: On the importance of language and self-recognition for right hemispheric consciousness” (Journal of Mind and Behavior (2001) 22 (2):107-118), Morin elaborates his argument for the significance of inner speech in self-awareness. Inner speech, he writes, allows us to “incorporate other persons’ potential views of ourselves in our self-talk and gain an objective vision of ourselves which facilitates self-observation” and “address comments to ourselves about ourselves, as others do towards us.” Referring to the mute right hemisphere, he writes: “Certainly it can experience an emotion, but without inner speech I suggest that it might not clearly know that it is experiencing it.” Morin concludes his discussion of split brain cases as follows:

My position is that two unequal streams of consciousness (i.e. self-awareness) emerge out of the transection of the forebrain commissures…. [T]his analysis incorporates empirical evidence (1) regarding the importance of language (inner speech) for self-awareness, and (2) concerning the legitimacy of self-recognition as an operationalization of self-awareness.

Morin adds that in his opinion, the case of Paul S. (discussed above) is “the only convincing case of real full double self-awareness in a split brain patient,” probably owing to the fact that this patient suffered early brain injury in the left hemisphere at the age of two, which led to his language abilities being bilateralzed. Morin regards it as an open question as to whether Paul S. actually has “two independent streams of inner speech – two concurrent but different self-conversations” (p. 531). For my part, I would regard such a claim as doubtful: the extent of Paul S.’s right-hemispheric language abilities amounted to comprehension of simple verbal commands and questions (in oral form), the ability to read single words and the ability to spell single words with Scrabble letters. That’s hardly an argument for the existence of a second independent streams of inner speech in the right brain.

I conclude that Sir John Eccles’ empirical claim that the conscious self is predominantly linked to the left hemisphere of the brain remains a highly defensible position which will probably turn out to be verified over the next few decades, whatever one may think of Eccles’ interactionist substance dualism.

A substance dualist’s answers to five tricky questions on split brain patients

We can now answer the five questions posed above, from the standpoint of Sir John Eccles’ modern version of Descartes’ substance dualism. It is important to note that for Eccles, the terms “self” and “soul” were more or less inter-changeable, as when he wrote: “I am constrained to attribute the uniqueness of the Self or Soul to a supernatural spiritual creation” (Evolution of the Brain: Creation of the Self, Routledge, paperback, 1991, p. 249), and he went on to liken the body and brain to a computer built by genetic coding, while “the Soul or Self is the programmer of the computer” (pp. 249-250).

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other, he attacked her with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere). Since the conscious self interfaces with the brain only via the dominant left hemisphere after a split-brain operation, what the man’s soul wanted to do was to defend his wife – an act for which he gets credit. The man is not morally responsible for what his rogue left hand does, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere, which is no longer controlled by the conscious self.

Indeed, Eccles famously suggested in The Self and its Brain (Berlin: Springer International, 1977, p. 329) that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) would be manslaughter rather than murder!

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self (or soul) doesn’t know it. But if If the left hemisphere knows something that the right hemisphere doesn’t, then the conscious self knows it.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, the patient’s soul, I am sorry to say, didn’t believe in God. In the case described by Dr. Ramachandran, all the patient had to do was point to “Yes” or “No”, when asked, “Do you believe in God?” But that behavior is not enough to warrant the attribution of a belief to someone, in the way in which that word is properly applied to rational beings. A belief is pre-eminently something which you may be called upon to justify, and state your reasons for. The patient’s right hemisphere couldn’t say why it believed in God; nor could it defend its point of view against objections. Hence it could hardly be said to have a belief in the proper sense of the word. It may have had a residual belief in God from early childhood, when people are unable to vocalize the grounds for their beliefs, but since the patient, as an adult, came to consciously reject that belief, then the patient’s soul, or conscious self, will be held liable for this rejection and judged accordingly.

4. Paul S.’s soul or conscious self wanted to be a draftsman, since that is the answer given by his left hemisphere.

5. Paul S.’s soul supported President Richard Nixon, since his left hemisphere expressed a liking for the man.

How would a thought control dualist answer these five questions?

One of the main differences between substance dualism and thought control dualism is that the former identifies the soul with the highest part of a human being – the conscious self – whereas the latter regards the soul as a hierarchical structure which informs the body at multiple levels, the highest of which (rational thought) is immaterial. In other words, thought control dualism, like Professor Edward Feser’s formal-final dualism, is hylemorphic: it regards the soul as the essential form of the body.

What that means is that according to thought control dualism. my lower mental states (e.g. sensations, desires) are just as much “mine” as my higher mental states (e.g. acts of reasoning, understanding and will). However, I am only morally culpable for those states which are subject to rational control.

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), what his soul wanted to do on a rational level was to protect his wife. However, on a sub-rational level, he may well have had some feelings of hostility towards his wife. These feelings would also be attributable to his soul, but because the movement of his left hand was no longer subject to reason, he would not be morally culpable for attacking his wife with his left hand, as it is controlled by the right hemisphere.

A thought control dualist would agree with Eccles’ contention that a homicide committed by the left hand of a split brain patient (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) could not be called murder.

2. If the right hemisphere knows something that the left hemisphere doesn’t, then a thought control dualist would say that the soul does know it, but not in a manner which is amenable to reason and critical thinking. (It would be interesting to see what happened if the right hemisphere of a split brain patient was exposed to someone dressed up as a ghost. How, I wonder, would the patient react? My guess is that unless the patient was previously skeptical of ghosts, it would be impossible to convince the right hemisphere that what it had seen was not a ghost.)

What the dominant left hemisphere knows, on the other hand, is amenable to critical thinking and reflection. Such knowledge belongs to the highest faculties of the soul.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a thought control dualist would say that the soul retained, at some level, a habit of belief (derived from childhood, perhaps) in God. However, such a belief is no longer amenable to reason in the split brain patient. By contrast, the belief expressed by the patient’s left hemisphere is a belief that the patient could justify and give reasons for, if asked to do so. Thus it counts as a bona fide belief.

Sometimes, it is true, we may think we believe that something is true because we consciously avow it, but at a subconscious level, we intuitively recognize that what we consciously declare is mistaken. (I know a man who once told me of two ex-Catholics he knew, who publicly denied the faith, but who re-expressed a belief in it after they’d had a few beers!) In a person with a normally functioning brain, reason and intuition doubtless have lots of little tussles of this sort, and they usually manage to resolve them eventually. The truly sad thing about the split brain patient is that this kind of resolution cannot take place. In the case of the left-brain atheist discussed by KeithS, the patient’s right brain may know on an intuitive level that there is a God, but the bridge between intuition and reason has been severed. God, being merciful, will take the patient’s impairment into account.

4. Paul S.’s soul wanted to be a draftsman on a rational level, but on a more primitive, feeling-based level, his soul wanted to be an automobile racer.

5. Paul S.’s soul liked President Richard Nixon on a rational level, but disliked him on an intuitive level.

How would a formal-final dualist answer the above five questions?

The principal difference between thought control dualism and form-final dualism is that on the former account, the soul can interact with the brain and initiate neural processes, while on the latter account, the soul does not make neurons in the brain move: the soul explains the “what” and the “why” of a voluntary human action, but not the “how.” Thus thought control dualism, like substance dualism, would attempt to identify locations in the brain which are still capable of interacting with the rational soul (whose choices, like its acts of understanding, are disembodied acts), whereas formal-final dualism, which rejects such an interactionist account, would attempt to identify those actions performed by split-brain patients which still manifest rationality (and hence are morally praiseworthy or blameworthy), on an operational level – i.e. by performing relevant tests, such as carefully probing the patient’s stated reasons for his/her actions.

Bearing this in mind, we can answer the five questions above from the perspective of the formal-final dualist, as follows:

1. In the case of the man who attacked his wife with his left hand (which is controlled by the right hemisphere) while simultaneously trying to protect her with his right arm (which is controlled by the left hemisphere), both acts are attributable to different levels of the soul, as each human being embodies a psychic hierarchy. However, the action that should be counted as rational (and hence morally evaluable) is the one that the man himself can give a reason for, both before and after performing the act (this last condition is vitally important, in order to prevent confabulation, where patients make up reasons to cover their embarrassment over sudden bodily movements of theirs which they are unable to explain).

2. If one hemisphere knows something that the other hemisphere doesn’t, then a formal-final dualist would say that the soul knows it, but not in a manner which is fully integrated with the entire body. Recall that for a formal-final dualist, the soul is essentially the form of the body. If the form is badly damaged, in a way that affects cognitive functions, then the patient’s awareness may be localized, rather than spread over the global brain.

3. In the case of the patient whose left hemisphere didn’t believe in God but whose right hemisphere did, a formal-final dualist would try to ascertain which stated belief was properly integrated into the patient’s life. For example, if the patient made a habit of praying every night and going to church on Sundays, then that would be a good reason to take seriously the right hemisphere’s avowal that it still believed in God, notwithstanding the left hemisphere’s professed atheism. Deeds speak louder than words.

4. There may be different levels of the soul on which Paul S.’s soul wants to be a draftsman and an automobile racer, but the one that deserves to be called most authentically Paul S.’s wish is the one which he doggedly pursues over a period of several years, as people do when undertaking long-term rational plans.

5. Regarding President Nixon, it’s very hard for a formal-final dualist to ascertain what a split brain patient’s feelings were towards a politician, unless that patient had devoted a fair bit of time towards getting Nixon elected – or alternatively, ejected from office. In the absence of such rational, goal-oriented behavior, a formal-final dualist might be inclined to reject both hemispheres’ professed likes and dislikes as mere preferences, as opposed to rational choices. Of course, if Paul S. was able to say why he liked Nixon, than that kind of behavior would count as evidence, but only if it cohered with the rest of his political views. Since Paul S. was only eleven when Le Doux, Wilson and Gazzaniga wrote their famous article about him in 1977, some skepticism is warranted. (His views now would of course count as evidence, as well.)

In this post, I have tried to answer KeithS’s questions about split brain patients from the perspective of three distinct varieties of dualism. I shall leave it there, and let readers judge for themselves between these versions of dualism. What I have attempted to show, however, is that split brain patients do not pose an insoluble problem – or even a particularly pressing one – for believers in an immaterial soul.

Readers wanting to learn more about the history of how Christian and other dualistic philosophers tackled the problem of split brain patients may like to consult Minds Divided: Science, Spirituality, and the Split Brain in American Thought by Stephen E. Wald (ProQuest LLC, ISBN-13: 2940032034322, eISBN-13: 9780549633204), some of which can be viewed online here).

Comments
Chaotic behaviour is a characteristic of non-linear systems. My point is simply that not all systems that exhibit chaotic behaviour are deterministic. You can include stochastic terms in a non-linear model and still get chaotic behaviour. Chaotic behaviour neither depends on, nor precludes, stochastic factors. It wasn't even supposed to be a rebuttal. I don't think myself that the existence of free will depends on whether a system is deterministic or not. I do agree that decision-making is profoundly non-linear, which means, in my view, that it offers enough degrees of freedom for me to regard myself as free.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 27, 2013
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Proton @63:
Chaotic systems are predetermined even if they’re unpredictable.
Elizabeth Liddle @64:
Non-linear systems can be both stochastic and non-stochastic.
Elizabeth Liddle @65:
I meant can be either stochastic or non-stochastic.
So? Are all non-linear systems chaotic? Elizabeth is talking about non-linear systems. Proton is talking about chaotic systems. How is Elizabeth's "rebuttal" even relevant?Mung
July 26, 2013
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Joe, Does anyone believe in the type of soul that keiths refers to? Not me. I believe that my "soul" is my non-material, but very observable personality.Querius
July 26, 2013
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Proton,
Chaos theory isn’t doing you any favors.
I'm not looking for, nor do I need any favors.
It’s a materialistic theory. And if you say that the correlation between backgrounds and choices corresponds to a chaotic system, then you’re admitting that choices are predetermined.
No, I originally asserted that you can hide free will and God in a Chaotic system, meaning that you would not be able to tell whether there are non-materialistic influences or entanglements present. Think of it this way, pick a point on an XY plane. Notice that the Cartesian coordinates are irrational numbers. According to many scientific observations, the outcome of an effect or process can be profoundly dependent on the initial conditions as Edward Lorenz discovered. Now, try to pick that same point again. You will always fail. Even knowing that the coordinates are (pi,pi) doesn't help you. And you would *not* be able to tell if some outside intelligence nudged the values in the trillionth place, but the outcome would be different. Philosophically, it is likely that in a chaotic system, both free will and predestination can coexist!
There’s a difference between “predetermined” and “unpredictable”. Chaotic systems are predetermined even if they’re unpredictable.
They can be both. And you'd have to be God to know exactly what those initial conditions are. Thus, as you implied above, nobody but God can know the outcome of your unpredictable free will. LOL Care to answer my question as to whether you believe pure water exists or not? ;-)Querius
July 26, 2013
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Mark Frank:
So a baby does not have free will?
Define baby. Define free will.Mung
July 26, 2013
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vjtorley @70, I would not describe humans as body/soul/spirit, since the word "soul" in unhelpfully ambiguous and variable in its meanings. I would say that every human has a body, a mind, and a spirit (not two spirits but one). Paul certainly did have all three (e.g. 1 Cor. 14), and he seems to have expected the same for others. Since Jesus is fully human, I submit that it is necessary that he has a body, a mind, and a spirt (not two spirits but one), just as any human has. I do observe that Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am", so it is evident that the spirit of Jesus -- His core identity -- preceded the beginning of Abraham. Thus, I consider the fact that the Spirit of Jesus was divine and eternal to be a completely noncontroversial position for Christians. You wrote:
Your claim that Jesus’ Spirit was Divine and eternal but the spirit of other human beings has a beginning in time, raises some rather troubling theological questions.
If you find my affirmation of both of those truths "raises some rather troubling theological questions.", then I would have to ask you which of those two truths you would recommend eliminating or rejecting? Would you claim that the spirit of Jesus was not divine and eternal? Would you claim that the spirit of other human beings do not have a beginning in time (i.e. by implication that every human has an eternal spirit)? I would hope and expect that you would say, No, to both of these questions. If my guess is correct, then both of us actually affirm both of these two propositions. If affirming both does not raise troubling theological questions about your own position (since you affirm both), then the fact that I affirm both cannot by itself raise any more of an objection than it does for you to affirm both. Ergo, if you find something troubling about what I am saying, it has to be something other than the fact that I affirm both of two claims that are widely held by orthodox Christians. Even if there is a matter worth questioning, it cannot be as you have described it (i.e. that I affirm both of two claims, which you also affirm). So what is the real question that troubles you, if any still does? Meanwhile, I could ask you this question. If you were to reject the distinction between mind and spirit, and suppose that mind=spirit, then by your own argument (not mine) @70, wouldn't you be saying that because the mind of Jesus is eternal (and divine), then (by the same reasoning you posted) He could not be fully and truly human, since it was not a merely human mind with a beginning? OR, one could still ask the same question substituting "spirit" for "mind", i.e. human spirits are not eternal as is true for Jesus. However you describe Jesus, it is obvious that some aspect of His nature did not have a beginning, whereas the corresponding aspect of all other humans would have had a beginning. So I don't see how you would escape the objection you raised. My own response to that kind of argument is this. I do not consider the fact that the spirit of Jesus is eternal and divine disqualifies the claim that in His nature He is fully human. The human spirit was created in the image of God. The spirit in Jesus fully qualifies for fulfilling the requirement that every human, including Jesus, has a spirit (pneuma) as well as a conscious human mind (nous) and a body (soma). In every respect wherein one might examine Jesus (hypothetically) for tests of His humanity, the verdict of every test of examination would be, "This is a human." The fact that the spirit of Jesus has existed eternally does not change the reality of His humanness. Is there anything unreasonable about that?ericB
July 26, 2013
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@vjtorley
I’d say there’s plenty of observational evidence for your first definition of “constraint” (anything part of someone’s background), and none for the second definition (anything that sets the path of our choices to an ultimately predetermined outcome), in human beings
I don't understand why you say that there's plenty of observational evidence for the first one and not for the second one. Constraints are not a "force" that pushes you to a certain choice but were you ultimately have the final say (free will). Constraints are embedded in the very reasoning behind a choice. They don't "force us" to do something and then we can reason out of such force, they are WITHIN the very choice making process. In other words, we can't escape from our constraints with reasoning because our reasoning was built with them inside. That's why our constraints are mostly invisible to us when we're trying to reason regarding a choice, and that's because our constraints are part of the reasoning itself. In fact, without a background, a life experience, we wouldn't have reasoning at all. We can reason because we have a background on which we built such reasoning. That's why no two people reason identically. If to make choices we need to reason, and our reasoning is the product of our background, then our choices are a product of our background. If you say there's "plenty of observational evidence" for the idea that "constraints are anything that's part of someone's background" then you have to agree too that there's a lot of evidence that our backgrounds constrain our choices, and so our choices are not really free.Proton
July 26, 2013
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I say:
There’s a difference between “predetermined” and “unpredictable”. Chaotic systems are predetermined even if they’re unpredictable.
Lizzie says:
Not necessarily. Non-linear systems can be both stochastic and non-stochastic.
But classical chaos (the one under discussion) happens to be non-stochastic, so it IS predetermined. If the relationship between backgrounds and choices are an example of a chaotic system, then they're predetermined, and so free will is false.Proton
July 26, 2013
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vj #68 I don't think this "by nature" concept really stands up. A newly fertilised egg has a genetic programme that means that one day it will (with luck) be able answer questions about why it did things. In fact it may lead to more than one such thing. Does that mean a single cell has free will while a say a dog does not? Meanwhile just occasionally the right hemisphere may develop left-hemisphere language skills which means it will be able to answer the question. More strangely you seem to be saying the question of whether something has free will or not depends on its linguistic performance or potential for linguistic performance - an externally observable characteristic. This opens up the usual issues that we should soon be able to programme computers to answer questions about why they made decisions (in fact we already can in a limited way e.g. medical diagnostic systems). I always thought that libertarian free will was a characteristic about the nature of decisions which only the decided could finally tell whether they had it (I admit I have no idea what that characteristic is)Mark Frank
July 26, 2013
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Proton, Thank you for your post. When I asked you to define a constraint, you wrote:
Anything that is part of someone’s background. Genes, culture, personality traits, health, childhood experiences, parents’ jobs, relationship with siblings, former friends, ego, bad memories, etc etc. Constraints are basically anything that sets the path of our choices to an ultimately predetermined outcome, whether we are consciously aware of such set of constraints or not.
I see two definitions here, which I've italicized. It seems to me that they are non-equivalent: something can be part of someone's background without necessarily determining that person's choices, either by itself or in conjunction with other causes. I'd say there's plenty of observational evidence for your first definition of "constraint," and none for the second definition, in human beings.vjtorley
July 26, 2013
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ericB, Thank you for your post. Your claim that Jesus' Spirit was Divine and eternal but the spirit of other human beings has a beginning in time, raises some rather troubling theological questions. Perhaps I'm badly misreading you, but your view sounds a little like that of Apollinaris of Laodicea in the forth century, who taught that in Christ the human spirit was replaced by pure, divine Logos. If Jesus was fully human as well as fully Divine, then He must have possessed human nature in all its fullness. As St. Athanasius put it, "That which He did not assume, He did not redeem." That means He must have possessed human nature in all its parts. If the spirit (as opposed to the mind) is part of the nature of a normal human being, then Jesus must have had a human spirit as well. In that case, if one accepted a body/soul/spirit trichotomy in man, then it would be better to say that Jesus has two spirits - a Divine spirit that is eternal, and a human spirit that has a beginning. In any case, whether one accepts a bipartite, tripartite or quadripartite account of man, it is important for Christians to hang onto the truth that Jesus is a Divine Person as well as the truth that He possesses human nature in all its fullness. Cheers.vjtorley
July 26, 2013
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Does anyone believe in the type of soul that keiths refers to?Joe
July 26, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank, Thank you for your post. In my previous post, I wrote: "If an entity is by nature incapable of answering the question, 'Why did you do that?' then we do not call its actions free." I placed the words "by nature" in italics for a reason. A newborn baby has the same nature as a rational adult: the only difference is that its genetic program is at an earlier stage. But the genetic program is up and running, nevertheless, and if the baby grows up in a suitable environment, the baby's genetic program will see to it that the baby acquires language, and with it, the ability to answer questions like "Why did you do that?", while retaining its individual identity throughout. By contrast, in a left-brain dominant person, their right hemisphere will never acquire the ability to answer questions like "Why did you do that?" and give an account of its actions. In order to acquire that ability, it would have to be re-engineered into a left hemisphere - in other words, it would have to lose its identity. Can we legitimately speak of a newborn baby (or for that matter an embryo) as rational from the get-go? Indeed we can. A substance dualist could say: if the soul or self is present from day one, then rationality is present from the beginning, even if the body attached to that soul is not yet sufficiently developed for the soul to (a) acquire all the information necessary for it to figure out the rules of a language (a newborn baby needs to be exposed to over 10 million words before it can figure out how to make the sentences required for even minimal rational discourse), and (b) physically express what it has figured out (it's pretty hard to talk without teeth, for instance). A body control dualist would argue along similar lines, except that he/she does not view the body as a distinct entity from the soul. Both a body control dualist and a formal-final dualist would add that the built-in goals that characterize a human being are the same in the baby (or embryo) and in a human adult, and that the exercise of practical reason is one of those built-in goals. Even a materialist could concur with this last point, as I argued in my online book, Embryo and Einstein - Why They're Equal (written a couple of years ago). As far as the exercise of free will is concerned, I would say that a child of about three exercises free will sometimes, to the extent that it is capable of justifying its actions. Is there a "magic moment" at which it is first exercised? In order to answer that question, you'd need to be able to track what goes on in a child's brain as it makes a decision, see which areas light up and compare the pattern with that of a rational adult making a similar decision. There is almost certainly a distinctive pattern of brain activity that would enable an observer who saw it to conclude that the possessor of that brain is currently cogitating, as opposed to merely imagining or remembering (say). (A dualist can happily affirm this point, too.) Thus there might well turn out to be a first moment at which that pattern is manifested in a baby's brain.vjtorley
July 26, 2013
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Phineas @54 writes:
I think ericB makes a good case for Scriptural support of a mind/spirit distinction, and tragic mishap’s body/mind/spirit formulation seems quite plausible to me. I don’t tend to think of this as a denial of dualism, but as an extension of it, since we can still speak in terms of the material and immaterial.
Exactly so. When trying to count the number of "parts" to a human, it's a flexible matter that depends on resolution, i.e. groupings or distinctions. Some references in Scripture refer to the immaterial aspect of man collectively and inclusively. Meanwhile, as Dr. Torley correctly pointed out @18, other passages may make descriptions that go as far at least a four-fold distinction. It's not a matter of saying there is only one way to cut up a human being in terms of parts. (We could raise the same questions about how many physical parts the one material body could be expressed as. Different resolutions would give different counts.) What matters for many practical considerations -- including the questions raised by this column about split-brain cases -- is that the human mind and the human spirit are not synonyms. They are distinct, even if one could justifiably use the word "soul" to refer to either or both.ericB
July 26, 2013
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tragic mishap @41, I'm glad you find the distinction between mind and spirit helpful. I've found that whenever someone has difficulty with the Christian position that Jesus was simultaneously both fully human and fully God (e.g. Nicene Creed), their questions and difficulties are easily answered once one takes into account the difference between mind and spirit. Since all humans have both a mind (nous) and a spirit (pneuma), therefore to be fully human, Jesus also necessarily had a conscious human mind as well as a spirit. His human mind had the same capabilities and limitations as other human minds. (He needed to learn, including learning to speak language. He slept. His human mind was, of itself, not omniscient. And so on.) His spirit, on the other hand, has always been divine and eternal (e.g. John 1:1-18; 8:56-58, etc.), being forever in communion with the Father and with the Advocate/Helper (Greek paraclete, i.e. the Holy Spirit). By contrast for all other humans, our spirits are neither divine nor eternal and have a beginning. For example, Jesus could not have said, "Before Abraham was, I Am.", if it were not also true that Abraham had a beginning, including for his spirit.ericB
July 26, 2013
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I meant can be either stochastic or non-stochastic. Inadvertently violated the LNC there :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 26, 2013
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Proton
There’s a difference between “predetermined” and “unpredictable”. Chaotic systems are predetermined even if they’re unpredictable.
Not necessarily. Non-linear systems can be both stochastic and non-stochastic.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 26, 2013
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Querius: Chaos theory isn't doing you any favors. It's a materialistic theory. And if you say that the correlation between backgrounds and choices corresponds to a chaotic system, then you're admitting that choices are predetermined. There's a difference between "predetermined" and "unpredictable". Chaotic systems are predetermined even if they're unpredictable. Choices might be unpredictable depending of the scenario (however a higher level correlation indicates that they're predictable to a large extent), and still be PREDETERMINED. Actually, the very fact that they're a chaotic system indicates predetermination! Keeping the chaos theory in the argument just helps me because it implies the materialistic and deterministic nature of choices. In fact, thanks to you I discovered that the chaos theory can be used as an argument against free will (because it helps to make clear the difference between unpredictability and determination, something that some people here tried to use), so thank you for that.Proton
July 25, 2013
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vj vj #51 wrote
the right hemisphere, while capable of some degree of self-consciousness, as Eccles acknowledged, is nevertheless incapable of free will, because it is incapable of expressing itself in even simple propositions and therefore incapable of language in the true sense of the word. If an entity is by nature incapable of answering the question, “Why did you do that?” then we do not call its actions free. I hope that answers your question.
It is quite interesting. I am not sure when something is incapable of answering the question “Why did you do that?” "by nature" and when it just can't answer it. But presumably this means you do not allow free will to animals, new born babies, or anyone sufficiently mentally disabled they are not able to articulate propositions. The interesting thing is that babies do not suddenly become able to answer the question "why did I do that?". They work up to it gradually from "I was angry" or "I wanted the toy" which are reflections on what were spur of the moment decisions to much more subtle and considered alternatives. This indicates that free will, as defined this way, is a matter of degree. Is that right?Mark Frank
July 25, 2013
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vj vj #51 wrote
the right hemisphere, while capable of some degree of self-consciousness, as Eccles acknowledged, is nevertheless incapable of free will, because it is incapable of expressing itself in even simple propositions and therefore incapable of language in the true sense of the word. If an entity is by nature incapable of answering the question, “Why did you do that?” then we do not call its actions free. I hope that answers your question.
It is quite interesting. I am not sure when something is incapable of answering the question “Why did you do that?” "by nature" and when it just can't answer it. But presumably this means you do not allow free will to animals, new born babies, or anyone sufficiently mentally disabled they are not able to articulate propositions. The interesting thing is that babies do not suddenly become able to answer the question "why did I do that?". They work up to it gradually from "I was angry" or "I wanted the toy" which are reflections on what were spur of the moment decisions to much more subtle and considered alternatives. This indicates that free will, as defined this way, is a matter of degree. Is that right?Mark Frank
July 25, 2013
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@vjtorley
Do you mean absence of limitations? Are you saying that the only free will is a will that can choose absolutely anything?
Absolutely not, I never proposed such scenario.
Or do you mean absence of control? In that case, the chess analogy I mentioned in a comment on another thread comes into play: the rules of the game constrain the movements of the players, but do not determine which way they will move.
This analogy doesn't represent a different scenario than the one with limitations you talked about above, and doesn't deal with my argument. Constrainment by external causes means constrainment by the person's background. Of course we are constrained by law, but law is something we can know. But we can be constrained by things we don't know about, and therefore things that escape our reasoning even if they are responsible for the ultimate outcome of our choice.
Please define what you mean by a constraint.
Anything that is part of someone's background. Genes, culture, personality traits, health, childhood experiences, parents' jobs, relationship with siblings, former friends, ego, bad memories, etc etc. Constraints are basically anything that sets the path of our choices to an ultimately predetermined outcome, whether we are consciously aware of such set of constraints or not. When you make a choice, can you be absolutely certain that there are no underlying factors constraining it? Even if you feel that your choice is free because you can be conscious of you making it, can you be sure that you're not being constrained by a something so sutil that you can't perceive it consciously? My guess is you can't. In such scenario, we should rely in what evidence tells us to decide what's the most probable scenario (are we constrained or not by our backgrounds?). And the most probable scenario is that we are in fact constrained at least most of the time, if not all the time, because that's what evidence says.Proton
July 25, 2013
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Upright BiPed, Phinehas, and vjtorley . . . Very nicely articulated arguments! My hat's off to you. :-) I would also say that while I believe in the tripartite nature of human beings, as far as I know, this is not something that can be proved scientifically, and probably gets more complex as we learn any details. Oh, and sorry aout the messed up formatting in my previous post. The first and third paragraphs quote Proton's incomprehension of Chaos. Oh well. Let's see whether he equivocates on the existence of "pure water". ;-)Querius
July 25, 2013
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Proton,
You don’t deny the validity of my argument, you just think that the evidence that supports my argument can’t be conclusive because we can’t know exactly all the initial conditions.
Yes, I deny the validity of your argument for that reason.
However, that’s a kind of “grasping at straws” position.
Not at all. It's called Chaos theory. Proton it has been demonstrated scientifically many times! Please do yourself a favor and read up on it. You can still argue behaviorim along the lines of B.F. Skinner. At least do so from an informed position. And it's still inconclusive, although Chaos theory puts a big hole in the position. Here let me help you argue. "If the weather is as unpredictable as scientists now believe, how would you know that weather doesn't have free will." See isn't that better? ;-) Here's a test for you. Do you believe that there is such a thing as "pure water"?
Querius
July 25, 2013
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Upright BiPed you're getting it all wrong, and that's because you jumped into the debate without reading the previous comments. The definition of free will is NOT under discussion. Free will is "the ability to make choices without any constrain from external causes". It's the definition you find in online dictionaries. My argument is based on a vast amount empirical evidence (for example, global surveys on human behaviour, besides common sense observation) that gives clear indication of a correlation between backgrounds and choices, meaning, choice constrainment is "the rule" of the world, which puts in serious doubt whether a choice without constrainment can even exist on principle. But because the relationship between backgrounds and choices resembles a chaotic system, it's hard to determine with 100% accuracy the origin of a choice (generating apparent "exceptions" to the rule), even if a higher level correlation exists indicating that such exceptions are not real. Free will advocates take advantage of this "technical problem" and try to sustain that the existence of those exceptions prove free will is true, or that even if free will is false, we can't prove it. But the technical problem of the "accuracy" is not unresolvable, because deep investigation of people's background can eliminate such apparent exceptions and end for good the idea that a choice can exist without constrainment (free will advocates will fear the day such investigations are held in an experiment on sources of behaviour). In any case, given the overwhelming evidence supporting the constrainment of the majority or even all choices, any position in favour of free will begs the question and depends on a "grasping at straws" position, namely, they must believe that if we look close enough to people's backgrounds, then we will find "certain" choices (the imaginary exceptions) that were not constrained by apparantly anything, which goes against common sense and it's a belief based on nothing but an a priori assumption that free will exists. Free will is like evolution, the only reason to believe in it is a prior commitment to it's existence, and you must close your eyes to the evidence in order to keep sustaining that belief.Proton
July 25, 2013
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Hi Bilbo I and Phinehas, Thank you for your comments, and my sincere apologies for not getting back to you earlier, Bilbo. Very briefly: different theologians have found different images of the Trinity in man. My own view (which is heavily influenced by Augustine) is that God the Father corresponds to the mind, God the Son corresponds to its concept of itself, and God the Holy Spirit corresponds to its love of itself. I don't think the Trinity maps onto the different parts of man (e.g. body/mind/spirit) because these parts are not all equal, whereas the Three Divine Persons are.vjtorley
July 25, 2013
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Hi Proton, You argue that free will is "the ability to make choices UNCONSTRAINED by external factors." Please define what you mean by a constraint. Do you mean absence of limitations? Are you saying that the only free will is a will that can choose absolutely anything? By that definition, even the dictator of the world (if there were one) would not be free: he would still limited by gravity. Or do you mean absence of control? In that case, the chess analogy I mentioned in a comment on another thread comes into play: the rules of the game constrain the movements of the players, but do not determine which way they will move. You write that "there's an obvious correlation between people's backgrounds/circumstances and their choices, which implies that choices are not ultimately free." All it proves is that people's backgrounds/circumstances are a causal factor in people's choices. But causality isn't the same thing as control.vjtorley
July 25, 2013
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VJT:
I am aware that there are some Christians who espouse a tripartite division of the human being into body, soul and spirit. However, the Scriptural evidence adduced to support this view is extremely slim: usually it rests on nothing more than an appeal to 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (“May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”) and Hebrews 4:12 (“For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”)
I tend to lean toward a tripartite division, but I do so primarily because a triune God said, "Let us make man in our image." I think ericB makes a good case for Scriptural support of a mind/spirit distinction, and tragic mishap's body/mind/spirit formulation seems quite plausible to me. I don't tend to think of this as a denial of dualism, but as an extension of it, since we can still speak in terms of the material and immaterial. I think there could be some interesting parallels between the unity and interaction between members of the Trinity and the unity and interaction between various parts of a tripartite human. When materialists question how an immaterial mind can interact with a material body, for instance, I'm tempted to answer, "Perhaps in the same way the Father has always been able to interact with the Son." This isn't to say that the analogy is perfect, however, since I don't believe each human is somehow three persons in one. Though not explicitly named such, I believe the Bible teaches pretty clearly about the salvation, sanctification, and glorification of man, which, again, maps rather nicely to a tripartite human consisting of spirit, mind, and body. In any case, though I am certainly not going to claim it should be dogma, I don't think tripartite notions should be dismissed so readily or thoughtlessly. But again, neither do I think they undermine the main points you've been making.Phinehas
July 25, 2013
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You’re absolutely right, it’s absurd. That’s exactly why free will doesn’t exist (there are NO choices that are unconstrained).
So you apparently believe (obviously very strongly) that the unresolved philosophical debate over ‘free will’ isn't really about whether or not the mind is free from pure physical determinism. Instead, it’s about a definition which cannot exist even in principle. And instead of questioning your own idiosyncratic understanding of the issues, you deem all of those who came before you as arguing in the “absurd”. That’s all very interesting. It obviously has never occurred to you that those who argued before you were not so impoverished that they’d argue over something impossible by definition Now, you’ll have to excuse me. I did not realize who I was talking to.Upright BiPed
July 25, 2013
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#51 So a baby does not have free will?Mark Frank
July 25, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Here's my answer to your question:
You link the soul/self to the left hemisphere – not the right. I am curious about the status of the right hemisphere. It is capable of quite complicated actions including simple language processing. It seems to be something way beyond involuntary actions such as breathing. Would you say it has free will? I suspect you will say not. But how can you tell? What does it lack that indicates it has not free will.
I would answer that in individuals whose left brain is dominant, the right hemisphere, while capable of some degree of self-consciousness, as Eccles acknowledged, is nevertheless incapable of free will, because it is incapable of expressing itself in even simple propositions and therefore incapable of language in the true sense of the word. If an entity is by nature incapable of answering the question, "Why did you do that?" then we do not call its actions free. I hope that answers your question.vjtorley
July 25, 2013
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